Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Then where are the bug report threads, threads of people complaining about Snipe?

People on consoles don't have access to this addon (or any other addon) and seem to be having no problems with snipe.

It sounds to me that people are just coming up with excuses for cheats that are beneficial for them to exist.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/361862/four-focussed-aims-in-a-second/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/330866/zos-fix-snipe/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/353780/will-you-ever-fix-the-snipe-lag-glitch
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/316933/macroslice-and-snipe-glitching-needs-to-die
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/311330/snipe-glitching-needs-to-go
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373513/whats-with-the-snipe-poison-injection-insta-kill/p1

That's just a small selection of threads from this year. There are a lot more, some quite old, so many players probably gave up on reporting and just accept that those issues won't get fixed ever.

Why would i make up things to defend something i don't like and don't use?

That's just a bunch of people complaining about lag - I've been on the receiving end of multiple variations of that (Dark Flares, jbeams, wrecking blows etc etc).

Sucks, but it has nothing to do with the skill itself and no addon saves you from that.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?

Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.

Judging from people dodging procced fragments even in melee due to this addon - i don´t think the 1s casttime animation makes a difference except if you´re fighting the juciest potatoes.

Did you even watch the video I posted on the very first post of this thread? It makes an enormous difference.

You still have a chance to land a cast time ability from 15-20m distance against decent players - with this addon that chance disappears. Watch the video.

Well you don´t with magica HA, darkflare or fragments - which is why i think there´s an issue with snipe

There's no issue for me. On the video, you can see/hear the arrow right after the cast time completes and it's ridiculously easy to dodge if it comes from max range (just ask @Ragnaroek93 , I also tried sniping him instead of the other way around).

From close range, visual/audio cues still appear right after cast time completes (as seen/heard on the video), but it's significantly harder to react in time due to shorter travel distance. As it should.

With the addon though? You simply can't get hit anymore, as demonstrated in the video.

If you have an issue hearing an audio/visual cue for an ability, take it up with ZOS. Don't defend cheats that not only provide that cue (which is all you need, based on how I read your posts), but the whole cast bar for the ability.

Well just test it - snipe someone from medium range with only audicue to dodge and then try the same with darkflare/fireheavy with only audiocue to dodge.

I´m pretty sure you´ll find you´ll be 100% able to dodge both magica attacks - while as you stated snipe might hit you.

I clearly care too much to keep posting these, but here's another video:

https://youtu.be/9yyp7Uf2Ryg

Showcasing both the Dark Flare+Jav combo (almost impossible to dodge from close distance due to Jav's high travel speed) & just Dark Flares.

What you'll notice is that short range Dark Flare from infront is relatively easy to dodge (just like snipe, as you see the animation), while one from behind is more difficult (but still possible) as you have pretty much only the audio cue to rely on.
Again, exactly the same as Snipe.

Target was not using Miat's obviously, otherwise none of those (including javelins) would've landed.

I´ve never mentioned javelin.
You can snipe and javelin aswell.

That´s an issue with javelin animationspeed though

Maybe watch the latter portion with just Dark Flare then? It's not different at all from a close range Snipe (which won't be comboed with javelin btw, but Acid Spray).

And I want to stress this part:

Target was not using Miat's obviously, otherwise none of those (including javelins) would've landed.

Tells you how broken the API and the addons taking advantage of it are.

I´ve just tested it with cyndis - i´ve dodged every darkflare he shot at me.
I can´t do the same with snipe for whatever reason.

Maybe my hearing or my brain is impaired - but i literally can´t dodge the snipe when i can with darkflare.

Well, could just be that we react differently to different visual/audio cues as human beings - someone might have trouble hearing/seeing Dark Flare while another person has trouble hearing/seeing Snipe.

I personally don't see any difference between a short range Dark Flare & short range Lethal Arrow (as you can see from my videos) - both are tricky to dodge in time at close range but ridiculously easy from max range.

Practice and being accustomed to different sound effects also plays a large part.

Oh, and I hope both your tests were from equal distance from behind & from stealth. No one can fail dodging those abilities if you can see the cast animation.

SodanTok · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Then where are the bug report threads, threads of people complaining about Snipe?

People on consoles don't have access to this addon (or any other addon) and seem to be having no problems with snipe.

It sounds to me that people are just coming up with excuses for cheats that are beneficial for them to exist.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/361862/four-focussed-aims-in-a-second/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/330866/zos-fix-snipe/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/353780/will-you-ever-fix-the-snipe-lag-glitch
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/316933/macroslice-and-snipe-glitching-needs-to-die
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/311330/snipe-glitching-needs-to-go
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373513/whats-with-the-snipe-poison-injection-insta-kill/p1

That's just a small selection of threads from this year. There are a lot more, some quite old, so many players probably gave up on reporting and just accept that those issues won't get fixed ever.

Why would i make up things to defend something i don't like and don't use?

That's just a bunch of people complaining about lag - I've been on the receiving end of multiple variations of that (Dark Flares, jbeams, wrecking blows etc etc).

Sucks, but it has nothing to do with the skill itself and no addon saves you from that.

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?

Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.

Judging from people dodging procced fragments even in melee due to this addon - i don´t think the 1s casttime animation makes a difference except if you´re fighting the juciest potatoes.

Did you even watch the video I posted on the very first post of this thread? It makes an enormous difference.

You still have a chance to land a cast time ability from 15-20m distance against decent players - with this addon that chance disappears. Watch the video.

Well you don´t with magica HA, darkflare or fragments - which is why i think there´s an issue with snipe

There's no issue for me. On the video, you can see/hear the arrow right after the cast time completes and it's ridiculously easy to dodge if it comes from max range (just ask @Ragnaroek93 , I also tried sniping him instead of the other way around).

From close range, visual/audio cues still appear right after cast time completes (as seen/heard on the video), but it's significantly harder to react in time due to shorter travel distance. As it should.

With the addon though? You simply can't get hit anymore, as demonstrated in the video.

If you have an issue hearing an audio/visual cue for an ability, take it up with ZOS. Don't defend cheats that not only provide that cue (which is all you need, based on how I read your posts), but the whole cast bar for the ability.

Well just test it - snipe someone from medium range with only audicue to dodge and then try the same with darkflare/fireheavy with only audiocue to dodge.

I´m pretty sure you´ll find you´ll be 100% able to dodge both magica attacks - while as you stated snipe might hit you.

I clearly care too much to keep posting these, but here's another video:

https://youtu.be/9yyp7Uf2Ryg

Showcasing both the Dark Flare+Jav combo (almost impossible to dodge from close distance due to Jav's high travel speed) & just Dark Flares.

What you'll notice is that short range Dark Flare from infront is relatively easy to dodge (just like snipe, as you see the animation), while one from behind is more difficult (but still possible) as you have pretty much only the audio cue to rely on.
Again, exactly the same as Snipe.

Target was not using Miat's obviously, otherwise none of those (including javelins) would've landed.

I´ve never mentioned javelin.
You can snipe and javelin aswell.

That´s an issue with javelin animationspeed though

Maybe watch the latter portion with just Dark Flare then? It's not different at all from a close range Snipe (which won't be comboed with javelin btw, but Acid Spray).

And I want to stress this part:

Target was not using Miat's obviously, otherwise none of those (including javelins) would've landed.

Tells you how broken the API and the addons taking advantage of it are.

I´ve just tested it with cyndis - i´ve dodged every darkflare he shot at me.
I can´t do the same with snipe for whatever reason.

Maybe my hearing or my brain is impaired - but i literally can´t dodge the snipe when i can with darkflare.

How good are you at hearing/noticing crystal shard tho? Because you described destro heavy as something easy to hear, but If I am in middle of combat I wont recognize destro heavy in all that background noise., but I will dodge every snipe even those not coming at me because their sound is the most recognizable to me. The only thing I can hear of crystal frag is the impact sound (which is kinda late).
Well, dark flare is the most recognizable, but that's because it is unnecessary loud af. I was dodging that ability before I know what ability it is and what it does.

What I mean is that your ears are much more capable of distinguishing sounds of abilities you have great experience with.

Also sure, I dont 1vX like you do, but I can get fair share of snipes on me when moving around keeps. Never in at least last year I have died to snipe or was hit by snipe unless I got desync (in which you cant hear or even see it landing) or I choose to let it land (because I have yet to meet anyone using snipe that would endanger my life and I am in medium)

Feanor · October 2017

laced wrote: »

Sure, I hate being ganked too, but it is part of the game, and it is here to stay, I would never say " well screw them, they dont deserve to play the game " though. That is just selfish.

Hence why I say that stealth is just a design failure on ZOS side. Before Morrowind it was even worse with stealth getting bonus damage just because. As most stealthy players are NBs they still get a guaranteed crit (if they use shadowy disguise) and a guaranteed stun if the player isn't CC immune. On top of the advantage of jumping someone I just find that's too much.

Snipe is just an offender you commonly see on death recaps as the Skyrim fanbois somehow really like to play one and want to oneshot everything with it like they could there. And yes, the feeling of power it gives if you have an opponent "at your mercy" adds to the attractiveness of the play style. In reality all that Incap + SA + Execute crap from stealth is far far worse.

You'll always have people complain about stealth play if it is implemented like we have on ESO. It has taken ZOS a full 3,5 years to finally tone down stealth a bit. So I don't expect any further changes. That's why I can understand the addon and its appeal. It wouldn't be used if it didn't hit a venue. Every Miat's user just basically says "screw stealth" in big letters. And that's where I would start thinking, not about the addon itself.

Again, a snipe gank isn't lethal unless you are on your horse or already engaged. I share @Derra s sentiment though that there are few things more infuriating than a sniper when you're already fighting outnumbered.

Edited for typos.

Derra · October 2017

Crystal fragments does not have a soundcue @SodanTok

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

Sure, I hate being ganked too, but it is part of the game, and it is here to stay, I would never say " well screw them, they dont deserve to play the game " though. That is just selfish.

Hence why I say that stealth is just a design failure on ZOS side. Before Morrowind it was even worse with stealth getting bonus damage just because. As most stealthy players are NBs they still get a guaranteed crit (if they use shadowy disguise) and a guaranteed stun if the player isn't CC immune. On top of the advantage of jumping someone I just find that's too much.

Snipe is just an offender you commonly see on death recaps as the Skyrim fanbois somehow really like to play one and want to oneshot everything with it like they could there. And yes, the feeling of power it gives if you have an opponent "at your mercy" adds to the attractiveness of the play style. In reality all that Incap + SA + Execute crap from stealth is far far worse.

You'll always have people complain about stealth play if it is implemented like we have on ESO. It has taken ZOS a full 3,5 years to finally tone down stealth a bit. So I don't expect any further changes. That's why I can understand the addon and its appeal. It wouldn't be used if it didn't hit a venue. Every Miat's user just basically says "screw stealth" in big letters. And that's where I would start thinking, not about the addon itself.

Again, a snipe gank isn't lethal unless you are on your horse or already engaged. I share @Derra s sentiment though that there are few things more infuriating than a sniper when you're already fighting outnumbered.

Edited for typos.

Stealth in ESO is a joke.

You should play games like WoW (well, vanilla/TBC retro server) or BnS which implement it correctly - in both games it's a billion times stronger than it is in ESO and more fun to utilize/play against.

Since 2014 I've been posting about enhancing stealth in this game & making it more fun to use/play against, but after X threads/posts I've pretty much given up on it ever changing.

Also, I'm using Miat's addon myself. Why not, if it provides a clear advantage and is allowed?

Doesn't mean I'm saying "screw stealth" and certainly doesn't mean I condone of it (as should be apparent by now).

You use the addon if you want a CE level advantage over others (or get one the same level as people using it), simple as that.

It doesn't just affect how you play vs gankers, it also makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on you, ever. This includes: inferno/frost staff heavies (no magicka for you sorcs), frags, dark flares, gap closers etc etc - not just from stealth but also ones coming from out of your FoV (e.g. from far behind you when running away from zerg). Also any cast ability from far away which you'd have trouble recognizing due to target being far away (i.e. someone doing a staff heavy attack from 28m+).

InvitationNotFound · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

I made a new thread (I haven't personally created any regarding this addon previously, though I've posted in several) because nothing is being done about it - and I will keep creating new ones and keep posting until this has thousands of pages unless I'm either banned from the forums or a change happens.

Also, most of the other threads complain about addon, while the problem lies in the API. Getting rid of the addon (which also has many other functions that don't ruin the game for others) solves nothing as long as these kinds of cheats are allowed by the API.
show previous quotes

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

And no, maybe they aren't considered "cheats" by ZOS's definition (hence this thread), but they sure are from my perspective (and from the perspective of majority of people I'd say).

triggered?

Minno wrote: »

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InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be a post about how i love or hate this addon, in the end everyone has his own opinion here.
COPY STARTS

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.
COPY ENDS

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

I don't think ZoS has time to properly review the add-on against their design intent for the animation/audio cue system. And they aren't going to review it in more detail for just PC users when consoles don't have any add-ons.

It's not that they consider it fine or illegal, PvP is too small, too niche, and doesn't generate enough revenue to justify allocating a few employees to dive in there and start ripping out wires.

exactly this addon was already mentioned in several threads. they did review the api because of this addon. they made changes because of this addon. i highly doubt they didn't notice that functionality.

KingMagaw wrote: »

show previous quotes

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Be more specific when you state certain aspects of the game - that is very vague.

Additionally who would ever give out this information which clearly gives a massive benefit to using it?. Imagine i bought the game, additionally subscribe and out time/effort into making an addon that does interact to give benefits such as auto cleanse? - There is no incentive for me to give out this information and/or inform ZoS because imagine i would pay all this and then do work that ZoS 'should' be doing?

If you think this your delusional and i mean this to be informative and not personally attacking anyone.

you can download the lua code that comes with the game. you have an API list. furthermore, you have a zos statement on how the api works and what has implemented. take a look at it. it all contradicts with the statement of the one who wrote about such addons. if you (respectively the one who wrote it) make such claims, you (respectively he) should provide evidence. so whoever makes such claims should provide the evidence. and i'm not saying it is technically not possible, but it certainly isn't without a third party application or some sort of bug / vulnerability in their lua handling.

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be a post about how i love or hate this addon, in the end everyone has his own opinion here.
COPY STARTS

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.
COPY ENDS

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

So because someone officially says something is ok, it by your logic isn't inherintly wrong. So, by this logic, stoning people to death in countries where it is legal, makes it ok. It IS legal afterall.

Gotcha. I understand you people now.

Wrong, it is not what i said. I simply said it is not cheating. and it isn't.

However, your opinion is your opinion and i never said it is about other's opinion. you may feel about whatever you want.
I just compared to another issue and how it got handled and consider multiple such threads meaningless as they won't change anything.

SodanTok · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

Crystal fragments does not have a soundcue SodanTok

Sounds to me like that is then much bigger issue :P Getting hit by frag is much more dangerous than snipe. Why is nobody complaining about ranged ability that can CC on whim, can be instacast and can be comboed with stupidly easy setup. Oh right, people are complaining about sorc burst all the time. Much more than about snipes actually.

DDuke · October 2017

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

I made a new thread (I haven't personally created any regarding this addon previously, though I've posted in several) because nothing is being done about it - and I will keep creating new ones and keep posting until this has thousands of pages unless I'm either banned from the forums or a change happens.

Also, most of the other threads complain about addon, while the problem lies in the API. Getting rid of the addon (which also has many other functions that don't ruin the game for others) solves nothing as long as these kinds of cheats are allowed by the API.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

And no, maybe they aren't considered "cheats" by ZOS's definition (hence this thread), but they sure are from my perspective (and from the perspective of majority of people I'd say).

triggered?

Nope, just exercising what I believe is called the 1st Amendment in the US.

But you seem to be, considering you copy/paste the same posts on every thread regarding this topic.

Are you worried ZOS might remove your "skill" by making changes necessary for the health of the game?

Feanor · October 2017

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greatly differs.

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Here's how the general population feels about it:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/369568/should-miats-attack-alert-be-allowed/p1

With 333 votes that's around 5,3% margin of error - so we're looking at 75-85% of people who want this addon & these API functions gone.

InvitationNotFound · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

I made a new thread (I haven't personally created any regarding this addon previously, though I've posted in several) because nothing is being done about it - and I will keep creating new ones and keep posting until this has thousands of pages unless I'm either banned from the forums or a change happens.

Also, most of the other threads complain about addon, while the problem lies in the API. Getting rid of the addon (which also has many other functions that don't ruin the game for others) solves nothing as long as these kinds of cheats are allowed by the API.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

And no, maybe they aren't considered "cheats" by ZOS's definition (hence this thread), but they sure are from my perspective (and from the perspective of majority of people I'd say).

triggered?

Nope, just exercising what I believe is called the 1st Amendment in the US.

But you seem to be, considering you copy/paste the same posts on every thread regarding this topic.

Are you worried ZOS might remove your "skill" by making changes necessary for the health of the game?

you're playing on the eu server as an American?

to answer your question: no, i couldn't care less. I simply don't see much reason for having that many threads over and over again.

DDuke · October 2017

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

I made a new thread (I haven't personally created any regarding this addon previously, though I've posted in several) because nothing is being done about it - and I will keep creating new ones and keep posting until this has thousands of pages unless I'm either banned from the forums or a change happens.

Also, most of the other threads complain about addon, while the problem lies in the API. Getting rid of the addon (which also has many other functions that don't ruin the game for others) solves nothing as long as these kinds of cheats are allowed by the API.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

And no, maybe they aren't considered "cheats" by ZOS's definition (hence this thread), but they sure are from my perspective (and from the perspective of majority of people I'd say).

triggered?

Nope, just exercising what I believe is called the 1st Amendment in the US.

But you seem to be, considering you copy/paste the same posts on every thread regarding this topic.

Are you worried ZOS might remove your "skill" by making changes necessary for the health of the game?

you're playing on the eu server as an American?

to answer your question: no, i couldn't care less. I simply don't see much reason for having that many threads over and over again.

Well, you seem to care enough to keep posting on each of them (bumping them up in the process). The best course of action if you feel there's too many of them would be to stop doing that.

The best course of action for ZOS would be to respond to them & fix their damn API.

And no, I'm not American.

I guess I could just say "freedom of speech", but that varies depending on country - so best just use the version the company maintaining these forums adheres to.

...Well, that got off topic - but atleast you can consider that mystery solved.

Feanor · October 2017

@DDuke

Of course I play with cast time abilities. Personally I don't have an issue with Miat's addon users. The widespread zerg mentality and everyone being tanky asf are far bigger issues to me.

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Of course I play with cast time abilities. Personally I don't have an issue with Miat's addon users. The widespread zerg mentality and everyone being tanky asf are far bigger issues to me.

"cast time abilities", as in Crystal Frags (hardly a "cast time ability") & destro heavy attacks?

Try playing with Snipe (this would be all builds with bow as main weapon), Dark Flare or Crystal Blast.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

KingMagaw · October 2017

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Be more specific when you state certain aspects of the game - that is very vague.

Additionally who would ever give out this information which clearly gives a massive benefit to using it?. Imagine i bought the game, additionally subscribe and out time/effort into making an addon that does interact to give benefits such as auto cleanse? - There is no incentive for me to give out this information and/or inform ZoS because imagine i would pay all this and then do work that ZoS 'should' be doing?

If you think this your delusional and i mean this to be informative and not personally attacking anyone - I would like your thoughts on above @InvitationNotFound

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

Feanor · October 2017

@DDuke

You may find it hard to believe, but yes, I play stam toons using a bow too.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

You may find it hard to believe, but yes, I play stam toons using a bow too.

Yeah, right. As your main weapon or off bar with PI on it?

Because there's zero chance you ever land your main damaging ability on anyone using this addon if you try to main bar bow.

It also makes any ZOS efforts to balance Crystal Blast & other cast time abilities useless (well, atleast for PC players). Same for the new Asylum Bow, useless with these *** cheats around.

You people trying to justify cheating should feel ashamed.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

casttime skills hold no value for infight use against a decent opponent.
so you´re looking at using them to gank - i´ve already stated that that specific use is in my opinion more harmful to the game than having miats (or atleast it has been - because the players affected the most have mostly left).

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

casttime skills hold no value for infight use against a decent opponent.
so you´re looking at using them to gank - i´ve already stated that that specific use is in my opinion more harmful to the game than having miats (or atleast it has been - because the players affected the most have mostly left).

I'm looking at using them everywhere, including duels, where I had decent success on PTS (taking into account that I was unused to the build and unique playstyle) with a bow build for the first time since 2014. No one was using addons obviously.

Why does everything have to be about ganking?

Not that it even matters, instagibs aren't a thing anymore unless you play 7 light armor with 0 impen & run around without shields expecting to survive everything.

The only things that kill people without any way to survive are Soul Assault combos on medium armor users & zergs.

Attacks from stealth are not a problem, haven't been for ages (since sneak attack dmg & proc set nerfs).

Koensol · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

casttime skills hold no value for infight use against a decent opponent.
so you´re looking at using them to gank - i´ve already stated that that specific use is in my opinion more harmful to the game than having miats (or atleast it has been - because the players affected the most have mostly left).

It is not relevant at all wether or not an ability with a cast time is effective in the middle of a fight or not. What does matter is that you are being warned of something happening behind your back and outside of your field of view. Buffs for example can be tracked or estimated without addons. There are visual effects in the game for them. Its hard and tedious, but possible. That's the thing. Miats addon lets you detect things that are impossible to detect without it. This. Is. Wrong. Period. It doesn't matter what you think is more harmful. These are the facts.

The only reason this addon continues to exist is because ZOS cannot find a way to restrict API in such a way that it will not mess up other legit addons. And you know it.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

casttime skills hold no value for infight use against a decent opponent.
so you´re looking at using them to gank - i´ve already stated that that specific use is in my opinion more harmful to the game than having miats (or atleast it has been - because the players affected the most have mostly left).

I'm looking at using them everywhere, including duels, where I had decent success on PTS (taking into account that I was unused to the build and unique playstyle) with a bow build for the first time since 2014. No one was using addons obviously.

Why does everything have to be about ganking?

Not that it even matters, instagibs aren't a thing anymore unless you play 7 light armor with 0 impen & run around without shields expecting to survive everything.

The only things that kill people without any way to survive are Soul Assault combos on medium armor users & zergs.

Attacks from stealth are not a problem, haven't been for ages (since sneak attack dmg & proc set nerfs).

well miats does not work in duels or does it?

Actually i hardcast fragments a lot against the people that have the addon - because it allows me to drain their stam on demand.

When you spot somebody using the addon it´s pretty easy to play around - so the only circumstance where i can really see a the playstyle being severely impaired is ganking/sneaking.

Jade1986 · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

Sure, I hate being ganked too, but it is part of the game, and it is here to stay, I would never say " well screw them, they dont deserve to play the game " though. That is just selfish.

Hence why I say that stealth is just a design failure on ZOS side. Before Morrowind it was even worse with stealth getting bonus damage just because. As most stealthy players are NBs they still get a guaranteed crit (if they use shadowy disguise) and a guaranteed stun if the player isn't CC immune. On top of the advantage of jumping someone I just find that's too much.

Snipe is just an offender you commonly see on death recaps as the Skyrim fanbois somehow really like to play one and want to oneshot everything with it like they could there. And yes, the feeling of power it gives if you have an opponent "at your mercy" adds to the attractiveness of the play style. In reality all that Incap + SA + Execute crap from stealth is far far worse.

You'll always have people complain about stealth play if it is implemented like we have on ESO. It has taken ZOS a full 3,5 years to finally tone down stealth a bit. So I don't expect any further changes. That's why I can understand the addon and its appeal. It wouldn't be used if it didn't hit a venue. Every Miat's user just basically says "screw stealth" in big letters. And that's where I would start thinking, not about the addon itself.

Again, a snipe gank isn't lethal unless you are on your horse or already engaged. I share @Derra s sentiment though that there are few things more infuriating than a sniper when you're already fighting outnumbered.

Edited for typos.

It isnt just snipe that gets effected, all charge up and channel abilities do. This add on is pure cancer, and people who support it's mindset is also pure cancer

Derra · October 2017

laced wrote: »

show previous quotes

Feanor wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sure, I hate being ganked too, but it is part of the game, and it is here to stay, I would never say " well screw them, they dont deserve to play the game " though. That is just selfish.

Hence why I say that stealth is just a design failure on ZOS side. Before Morrowind it was even worse with stealth getting bonus damage just because. As most stealthy players are NBs they still get a guaranteed crit (if they use shadowy disguise) and a guaranteed stun if the player isn't CC immune. On top of the advantage of jumping someone I just find that's too much.

Snipe is just an offender you commonly see on death recaps as the Skyrim fanbois somehow really like to play one and want to oneshot everything with it like they could there. And yes, the feeling of power it gives if you have an opponent "at your mercy" adds to the attractiveness of the play style. In reality all that Incap + SA + Execute crap from stealth is far far worse.

You'll always have people complain about stealth play if it is implemented like we have on ESO. It has taken ZOS a full 3,5 years to finally tone down stealth a bit. So I don't expect any further changes. That's why I can understand the addon and its appeal. It wouldn't be used if it didn't hit a venue. Every Miat's user just basically says "screw stealth" in big letters. And that's where I would start thinking, not about the addon itself.

Again, a snipe gank isn't lethal unless you are on your horse or already engaged. I share @Derra s sentiment though that there are few things more infuriating than a sniper when you're already fighting outnumbered.

Edited for typos.

It isnt just snipe that gets effected, all charge up and channel abilities do. This add on is pure cancer, and people who support it's mindset is also pure cancer

I think sneak and stealth gameplay is pure cancer

what you gonna do - zos does nothing about both

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote:

making changes necessary for the health of the game

That's subjective. I could very well say that instagib one shot BS or the permablock HA stuff or the general bugs have driven more players from the game than Miat's PvP Alerts ever could.

Everyone has a vision for the game (well maybe not ZOS after all other than making money). It greay differs.

Do you play with a cast time ability?

Then the game's API and addons like Miat's have made it unplayable for you.

I can hardly say that of any other build/bug out there. Can you?

Do you play with curse? Debufftracking made the game unplayable.

Do you play with any projectile based instant cast ranged CC? Unplayable.

I find it ironic that stamina players complain so much about this yet magica is affected quite a bit more as the majority of their CCs are also affected.

Debuff tra- what? Can you avoid debuffs entirely with this addon? Does it provide anything base UI & using your head wouldn't? No? Didn't think so.

I find it ridiculous to what lengths people go to defend cheating.

It was the same with some people when Cheat Engine was a big deal, there were people defending it on the topic.

And yes, instant cast abilities are also affected by the API - all the more reason to fix it, not to defend it.

The way i see it (and from playing a build that is supposedly severely impaired as i can´t use HA/frags/reach) i don´t think it´s that bad.

ZOS already gave it a revision. It´s not cheating. Not even bugabusing.

It´s just there an probably not much is going to happen about it - there are worse problems than this.

No, it's worse than you think.

Did you actually watch the video I posted on the very first page?

How exactly are you going to play a bow build in PvP when people can dodge all your burst so easily (whether it's coming from stealth or not? Or are you only able to see this from your magicka sorc perspective?

Your build is affected also, but nowhere near as much as a bow user or someone using Dark Flare. If you're playing either bow build or Dark Flare magplar, you might as well uninstall the game and play something else if PvP is your thing - that's how bad it is.

For the rest it's still *** and detrimental to the game.

You're practically defending Cheat Engine, good job.

casttime skills hold no value for infight use against a decent opponent.
so you´re looking at using them to gank - i´ve already stated that that specific use is in my opinion more harmful to the game than having miats (or atleast it has been - because the players affected the most have mostly left).

I'm looking at using them everywhere, including duels, where I had decent success on PTS (taking into account that I was unused to the build and unique playstyle) with a bow build for the first time since 2014. No one was using addons obviously.

Why does everything have to be about ganking?

Not that it even matters, instagibs aren't a thing anymore unless you play 7 light armor with 0 impen & run around without shields expecting to survive everything.

The only things that kill people without any way to survive are Soul Assault combos on medium armor users & zergs.

Attacks from stealth are not a problem, haven't been for ages (since sneak attack dmg & proc set nerfs).

well miats does not work in duels or does it?

Actually i hardcast fragments a lot against the people that have the addon - because it allows me to drain their stam on demand.

When you spot somebody using the addon it´s pretty easy to play around - so the only circumstance where i can really see a the playstyle being severely impaired is ganking/sneaking.

Miat's doesn't work in duels, but not because the API doesn't permit it - it doesn't work because @Dorrino has disabled it for duels.

People can use custom addons for that as the API still permits it.

You can't play around the addon if you use any cast time skill, try to understand this. And as a bow user, your main damaging ability is Snipe (a skill with a cast time). It's not rocket science.

Also, if you have a problem with gankers you're worse at this game than I thought. Some people have never had problems with them, even back when sneak attacks dealt 3x more burst damage.

I'd love to see you try 1vX (or even 1v1) vs people with this addon without ganking, using a bow as your main weapon. Ganking is a part of bow medium armor playstyle like it or not.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

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laced wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Sure, I hate being ganked too, but it is part of the game, and it is here to stay, I would never say " well screw them, they dont deserve to play the game " though. That is just selfish.

Hence why I say that stealth is just a design failure on ZOS side. Before Morrowind it was even worse with stealth getting bonus damage just because. As most stealthy players are NBs they still get a guaranteed crit (if they use shadowy disguise) and a guaranteed stun if the player isn't CC immune. On top of the advantage of jumping someone I just find that's too much.

Snipe is just an offender you commonly see on death recaps as the Skyrim fanbois somehow really like to play one and want to oneshot everything with it like they could there. And yes, the feeling of power it gives if you have an opponent "at your mercy" adds to the attractiveness of the play style. In reality all that Incap + SA + Execute crap from stealth is far far worse.

You'll always have people complain about stealth play if it is implemented like we have on ESO. It has taken ZOS a full 3,5 years to finally tone down stealth a bit. So I don't expect any further changes. That's why I can understand the addon and its appeal. It wouldn't be used if it didn't hit a venue. Every Miat's user just basically says "screw stealth" in big letters. And that's where I would start thinking, not about the addon itself.

Again, a snipe gank isn't lethal unless you are on your horse or already engaged. I share @Derra s sentiment though that there are few things more infuriating than a sniper when you're already fighting outnumbered.

Edited for typos.

It isnt just snipe that gets effected, all charge up and channel abilities do. This add on is pure cancer, and people who support it's mindset is also pure cancer

I think sneak and stealth gameplay is pure cancer

what you gonna do - zos does nothing about both

How full of *** are you?

Should I start listing the amount of times stealth has been nerfed in this game? The list is really, really F'in long.

You don't like stealth, fine. Go find yourself a game that doesn't allow it instead of trying to change this one and ruin it for people who have been playing it for years.

Jade1986 · October 2017

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

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DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

I made a new thread (I haven't personally created any regarding this addon previously, though I've posted in several) because nothing is being done about it - and I will keep creating new ones and keep posting until this has thousands of pages unless I'm either banned from the forums or a change happens.

Also, most of the other threads complain about addon, while the problem lies in the API. Getting rid of the addon (which also has many other functions that don't ruin the game for others) solves nothing as long as these kinds of cheats are allowed by the API.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

And no, maybe they aren't considered "cheats" by ZOS's definition (hence this thread), but they sure are from my perspective (and from the perspective of majority of people I'd say).

triggered?
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Minno wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be a post about how i love or hate this addon, in the end everyone has his own opinion here.
COPY STARTS

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.
COPY ENDS

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

I don't think ZoS has time to properly review the add-on against their design intent for the animation/audio cue system. And they aren't going to review it in more detail for just PC users when consoles don't have any add-ons.

It's not that they consider it fine or illegal, PvP is too small, too niche, and doesn't generate enough revenue to justify allocating a few employees to dive in there and start ripping out wires.

exactly this addon was already mentioned in several threads. they did review the api because of this addon. they made changes because of this addon. i highly doubt they didn't notice that functionality.
show previous quotes

KingMagaw wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Be more specific when you state certain aspects of the game - that is very vague.

Additionally who would ever give out this information which clearly gives a massive benefit to using it?. Imagine i bought the game, additionally subscribe and out time/effort into making an addon that does interact to give benefits such as auto cleanse? - There is no incentive for me to give out this information and/or inform ZoS because imagine i would pay all this and then do work that ZoS 'should' be doing?

If you think this your delusional and i mean this to be informative and not personally attacking anyone.

you can download the lua code that comes with the game. you have an API list. furthermore, you have a zos statement on how the api works and what has implemented. take a look at it. it all contradicts with the statement of the one who wrote about such addons. if you (respectively the one who wrote it) make such claims, you (respectively he) should provide evidence. so whoever makes such claims should provide the evidence. and i'm not saying it is technically not possible, but it certainly isn't without a third party application or some sort of bug / vulnerability in their lua handling.
show previous quotes

laced wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

well, i will copy one of my recent posts here (for whatever reason the OP had to create another thread instead of using a thread about the same topic where he has been previously active) as there seems to be some misconceptions here.

don't get me wrong, this shouldn't be a post about how i love or hate this addon, in the end everyone has his own opinion here.
COPY STARTS

Skoomah wrote: »

MIAT add on was used privately by an inner circle for a long time before it was released for the general public. They only released the add on after an even more powerful one was used in its place. There are all sorts of other add ons that help people cheat. There is:

- auto block
- auto heal
- super speed
- macro slice
- auto detect
- Etc

regardless of what is in the TOS, these add ons break the spirit of fairness and are cheating in my opinion.

any other theories on why pvp populations have dropped so dramatically????

The API does not allow an addon directly to move, block or interact with certain aspects of the game directly. If you claim such things please provide evidence. And if you refer to third party applications (binaries and not addons) this has nothing to do with the addon API in itself.

Without evidence this simply looks like some uneducated claims which are in 99.9% of all cases wrong. You might simply not have understood how things work.

Zbigb4life wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

There's no grey area as in 'smart people can do what ZOS prevented them to do to gain advantage'.

Definitely. You are using the tools ZOS provides. Nothing wrong with that. Whether or not ZOS should provide those specific tools is a reasonable question, but it's ultimately irrelevant unless they remove them. We all play the game that we have, not the perfect game that exists only in our imaginations. If you want to win, use the tools or you put yourself at disadvantage to those who do.

I don't agree with this idea. It's wrong to use this add on and simply because it exists shouldn't force other players to use it as well. ZOS should ban everyone that uses this add on.

let's look at the following section in the terms of service:

ZeniMax may, in its discretion, make available to You one or more application programming interfaces and associated documentation (each an "API") to allow You to create, download, enable, use, or associate Content (excluding Game Mods), that modifies or otherwise provides enhanced features to the user interface ("Add-ons") for a Game. The API and Add-ons are Software for purposes of these Terms of Service and are subject to these Terms of Service and the Supplemental Terms applicable to the API and the Add-Ons. Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in these Terms of Service, if the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on directly conflict with specific terms and conditions in these Terms of Service or any other Supplemental Terms, the Supplemental Terms for an API or Add-on will control, but solely for purpose of the specific API and Add-on and not for any other purpose.

Excerpt from the Add-On terms:

ZOS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO CHANGE THE API AT ANY TIME, OR TO DISABLE AND/OR RESTRICT ANY ADD-ONS AT ANY TIME;

So let's look at the addon again:
It modifies / enhances the game. It is what ZOS wants by providing the API. There aren't any comments about what an addon is allowed to do. The addon was capable of doing way more than that so they took a look at it. They have reviewed it. Then they came up with an API change. That's all they did. So you might have guessed it by now, everything indicates that ZOS is now fine with how the addon works, otherwise they would have implemented further restrictions when they initially reviewed it.

So let's take a look at the whole situation again:
The addon is legit. There is no indication it is abusing bugs or is doing anything ZOS isn't fine with. Calling other players cheaters because they are using this addon is wrong as the definition of cheater doesn't fit. Wanting people to be banned for using it is the same as if you would want people being banned for animation canceling. It's stupid.
COPY ENDS

I've posted this because some player consider this as cheating. It isn't by definition. deal with it. of course you might not like it or whatever.

So because someone officially says something is ok, it by your logic isn't inherintly wrong. So, by this logic, stoning people to death in countries where it is legal, makes it ok. It IS legal afterall.

Gotcha. I understand you people now.

Wrong, it is not what i said. I simply said it is not cheating. and it isn't.

However, your opinion is your opinion and i never said it is about other's opinion. you may feel about whatever you want.
I just compared to another issue and how it got handled and consider multiple such threads meaningless as they won't change anything.

Some people in those countries wouldnt consider it murder though, because it is legal. So even if this is tolerated by ZoS, it is still cheating. Regardless of what you say, or what your twisted sense of logic and right and wrong says.