Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

Feanor · October 2017

Koensol wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Aside from that, it is also a fact that the addon goes against all logic and common sense. A 'stealthed' attack from invisibility, by its very definition, should remain stealthed, until it revealed itself (arrow/spell is fired) or is revealed by something (i.e. stealth detect pot, mages light, etc.). Denying this is arguing against facts.

Logic would indicate that any action a player takes should break stealth. So why are players allowed to cast buffs and charge a heavy attack while remaining in stealth? This is one of the main reasons stealth in this game is so absurd.

How does charging your bow in any shape or form break stealth? Please... this is becoming ridiculous.

Of course, in a world where you can be invisible by magic everything is possible. But to call that logic is bending the argument for the sake of being right just as much. I don't know about you, but you'd probably hear it if someone's just outside detection range (which is pretty near, around 5m or so) and does something, whether it's fitting an arrow to the string or bending a bow, let alone cast buffs.

I know, perma cloaking is totally fine, because urban legend and 90% of Forum NBs tell everyone cloak is never working, and the counters are so plenty (that you have to make sacrifices for these elsewhere is an argument that never counts when they should need to build against something).

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well it sure doesn't sound like that, considering how many times I've had to prove you wrong so far.

I can´t think how you proved me wrong so far?

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I wonder if ZoS is incapable of restricting the sort of information the OP (and most of us) want without gutting stuff they deem necessary for the API to allow.

I personally disable the attack warnings because I want nothing to do with them.

These attack indicators are based on the very own "combat cues" that zos base UI provides.
Block now! Dodge now!

Correct me if i'm wrong, but none of these base UI things actually function in PvP - nor do they reveal opponent's cast timer (the cue comes when the cast is complete).

Derra wrote: »

That what you mark as audiocue is not audible when used from higher range.

You´re dodging when you hear the bow - not the arrow sound. The bow sound however is located with the user and has a relatively small range.

As long as snipe hasn´t a comparable audiocue to darkflare with deepest respect: nope.

DDuke wrote: »

Actually, longer distance Snipes are the ones that are easier to hear/see/avoid (short distance ones like in my video are more difficult).

The sound plays as soon as the cast time is complete and longer travel distance means more time to react.

There's also a clear visual indicator of the arrow flying towards you (it's even glowing green if Lethal Arrow morph is used) if it comes from infront. From behind the visual cue is less obvious.

Here, I made another video for you (and for @Derra who mentioned long distance snipes being hard to hear/avoid earlier):

https://youtu.be/W8XxvXwGFV8

Derra wrote: »

I think sneak and stealth gameplay is pure cancer

what you gonna do - zos does nothing about both

And definitely some other stuff I've missed, I'm too lazy to search through the thread.

Derra wrote: »

All you did was post a video with darkflare - which when i tried to reproduce it i was able to dodge 100% from an enemy as close as possible in my back from sneak and without sneak.
Which i can´t do with snipe.

Yet somehow everyone else can avoid the snipe (including close range ones) just as easy as Dark Flare.
Perhaps you should practice dodging close range snipes?

Derra wrote: »

So anything about this seems to be anecdotal at best. The only evidence i can present for my point is dozens of topics complaining about snipe in lag/1vX etc pp mixed with my personal experience that snipe is the only casttime skill with a soundcue giving me issues.

Dozens of topics... where are they? I haven't seen a single "snipe op" thread since like 2015, only ones complaining about lag.

And that's even with console players around who don't have these gamebreaking addons.

Derra wrote: »

This is opposed by your anecdotal experience that snipe has never given you issues (even when there were times where snipe healthdesync without sounds was an aknowledged bug by zos... - ok well maybe you didn´t play back then).

You know I played back then and you know I've played since beta (videos on my channel date back to summer 2014 to prove that).

I never had those health desync problems with Snipe, because I never got hit by them (guess what, most players suck at ganking). Good thing they fixed those though.

Derra wrote: »

I don´t say i can´t dodge snipe sound at all. I´m saying that snipe is the only skill that i reliably can not hear when fighting more than one opponent.

So you can't reliably dodge it every single time without this addon while fighting multiple enemies. And that's a bad thing?

I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Why would anyone use a skill that never connects? Food for thought.

Derra wrote: »

As far as sneak nerfs go - and? What did it help? You still have players waiting in sneak for 10 minutes at a resource. Sadly not only NBs but also the 30k+ hp heavyarmor tankplars DKs and whatsoever you´re loathing so much.
So what did the sneak nerfs do? They made ganking harder to almost impossible now - which is good imo.
They however did nothing to alliviate the issues permanent sneak/stealth on any class or spec brings into the game.
Imo they should have adressed permanent sneak (constant stamina cost while not moving aswell) instead of the killing power of gank builds - which would have promoted a more intelligent approach to stealth gameplay in general and offered itemisation choices towards that.

You know what, I'm not a big fan of how stealth works in this game either.

Look at vanilla/TBC WoW rogues or BnS assassin, those are good examples of how stealth should work - much more depth, unique skills while stealthed, combos & stunlocks. Love it.

But that's not how it works in this game.

Derra wrote: »

What was and what wasn´t vaible for dueling back in 2014 is quite frankly said 100% irrelevant by now.
If i were to duel any player from back then with what i know about the game now i´d stomp them. I´d stomp myself aswell.
Try dueling now and try to make bow as a main weapon vaible - i don´t think it´s currently possible and i don´t think it should be possible in the way you´re implying asylum bow might make it (20+ snipes hellooo).

I did try it on PTS & I managed to kill good players with a Bow/Bow build. Sure, I lost more fights than I won but that's to be expected when you play a new build with extremely unique playstyle.

I'd say it's viable, the only thing standing in its way is the API & cheat addons. Oh, and that build being medium and getting rekt by Soul Assault combos.

Is it about doing big burst with a combo? Yeah, like almost every other build out there. I bet you can do 20k+ damage with a sorc combo as well.

I know for certain I can do more than 20k damage with Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap Selene on my current melee stamblade.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Derra wrote: »

The game has evolved - the players have evolved. I´d love to play doubleresto in sorc again. I´ve won duels with that aswell against noteable players. But this is not 2014 jon snow eso edition anymore.

No shite. We now have 10 times less build diversity & 99% of the playerbase in some meta heavy armor clown builds.

Derra wrote: »

Instead of adapting to what the game is now you´re living in the past of glory ganking days where you could oneshot basically everything with one hand under the table.

I can still one shot basically everything, though I still need to reach both my keyboard & mouse.
Nothing has changed in that regard, and that's the problem (people get bored when playing practically the same build for years).

Derra wrote: »

Yet you have the audacy to tell me i´m not affected by this addon because my only skill affected basically is frags. Well coincidentally that´s a sorcs main burst and cc (also the only one i have currently). Which is coincidentally alongside fiery reach and javeline a projectile without a soundcue so affected 100 times worse than anything that´s supposed to be heared.
So loosing my main burst and cc isn´t really being affected but those poor people spamming snipe from a wall are? With deepest respect -get real, honestly.

See, I'll explain it to you one more time:

frag proc=instant cast=no cast timer
snipe=1,1s cast=cast timer

You get a 1,1s heads up with addon like Miat's before the projectile is even in the air, making it not difficult but impossible to actually land.
With frags, you get warning for the travel time, making it difficult to land.

Also, unlike Snipe (which gets interrupted & cant be comboed if too close) you can actually throw that instant cast frag from melee range making it very tricky to avoid.

The difference is like night & day.

Derra wrote: »

We both know you´re so invested in the topic because the thought alone of oneshotting people which you´ll later sell as skillful play bc "they could have just dodged" (which they can´t bc of sneak stun if you time it right) with asylumbow snipe into acidspray is giving you the kicks already.
And i honestly hope for the good of the game (and a little bit out of spite now aswell) that if this addon gets touched regarding that functionality that this form of not yet implemented ganking gets nerfed before it sees the light of day.

Ganking? I'm more interested in actually having a unique medium armor build to duel with.

Would I do 1vX ("ganking" is a good opener in these scenarios to even the odds) with it? Almost certainly. Why shouldn't I?

Are builds with cast times only supposed to be Xv1er noobs or something in your toxic mind?

As it stands, I rather to do writs & log off than play some heavy armor meta clown build and tbh I'm just waiting for the first opportunity to jump off this sinking ship (where I've apparently wasted over 300 days /played of my life) to some other MMO that doesn't tolerate cheating.

pieratsos · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Aside from that, it is also a fact that the addon goes against all logic and common sense. A 'stealthed' attack from invisibility, by its very definition, should remain stealthed, until it revealed itself (arrow/spell is fired) or is revealed by something (i.e. stealth detect pot, mages light, etc.). Denying this is arguing against facts.

Logic would indicate that any action a player takes should break stealth. So why are players allowed to cast buffs and charge a heavy attack while remaining in stealth? This is one of the main reasons stealth in this game is so absurd.

How does charging your bow in any shape or form break stealth? Please... this is becoming ridiculous.

Of course, in a world where you can be invisible by magic everything is possible. But to call that logic is bending the argument for the sake of being right just as much. I don't know about you, but you'd probably hear it if someone's just outside detection range (which is pretty near, around 5m or so) and does something, whether it's fitting an arrow to the string or bending a bow, let alone cast buffs.

I know, perma cloaking is totally fine, because urban legend and 90% of Forum NBs tell everyone cloak is never working, and the counters are so plenty (that you have to make sacrifices for these elsewhere is an argument that never counts when they should need to build against something).

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

And obviously the fix to that BS is a shieldbreaker for stealth. Blockbreaker soon to follow. Healbreaker after that. What can possibly go wrong. Shieldbreaker did its job after all.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

So you can't reliably dodge it every single time without this addon while fighting multiple enemies. And that's a bad thing?

I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Why would anyone use a skill that never connects? Food for thought.

Since i can do that against fragments if hardcasted, darkflare or destro heavyattacks - yes i think it´s a bad thing it does not work that way for me with snipe (and for other players alike).

As for comparing 20k burst from a sorc (with debuffaddon warning and blue glow on char) to comparing 20k burst from 1 ability from sneak - welp if you´re that desperate for arguments. You´re digging yourself a pretty hole there.

We´d have had the same poor builddiversity in 2014 if players had the same knowledge back then. It´s the way things go in every mmo. There are clearly superior templates and loadouts everyone runs.
Eso is still one of the most diverse mmos i´ve played over the past 16 years.

I think vanilla wow was one of the worst examples about how stealth should be implemented you could have given me. Having seen what shurrik put out on his rougue was absolutely gross and shows 100% of the "enjoyable gameplay means I enjoy it" mindset.

Feanor · October 2017

@pieratsos

I'm not using the notifications. But I can see why you would. ZOS won't adjust stealth gameplay. It took them 3 years to get rid of the bonus damage. It's either accept that you're going to die by someone who thinks "you can't see me but I can kill you" is the pinnacle of a fun experience or you run the addon. I chose the former because dying in Cyro is something I'm used to by now. But the second option certainly has appeal because ZOS doesn't care.

Murador178 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So you can't reliably dodge it every single time without this addon while fighting multiple enemies. And that's a bad thing?

I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Why would anyone use a skill that never connects? Food for thought.

Since i can do that against fragments if hardcasted, darkflare or destro heavyattacks - yes i think it´s a bad thing it does not work that way for me with snipe (and for other players alike).

As for comparing 20k burst from a sorc (with debuffaddon warning and blue glow on char) to comparing 20k burst from 1 ability from sneak - welp if you´re that desperate for arguments. You´re digging yourself a pretty hole there.

We´d have had the same poor builddiversity in 2014 if players had the same knowledge back then. It´s the way things go in every mmo. There are clearly superior templates and loadouts everyone runs.
Eso is still one of the most diverse mmos i´ve played over the past 16 years.

I think vanilla wow was one of the worst examples about how stealth should be implemented you could have given me. Having seen what shurrik put out on his rougue was absolutely gross and shows 100% of the "enjoyable gameplay means I enjoy it" mindset.

I think ur forgetting here that getting that 20k dmg from snipe means he got ZERO stam reg, is medium roleplay armor, cant cloak often lacks a ton of healing and is a free kill when his snipe doesnt connect and u prevent him from getting back into cloak. Deci on pts played bow/bow without vigor

. Yeah getting sniped in 1vX is annoying but same is 1vXing a group with a tankplar spamming heals without even looking if sombody is taking dmg - or being medium armor and dieing to soulassault instant(my max stats mag nb killed cyndis medium armor stamblade(no cloak, block whole duration) with vigor up from full hp).

That addon can for sure be made more cancer so even u guys will notice the potential of such addons(i dont know if maybe some of things are implemented, since I play without addons after i got my skyshards/books):

-can it tell u if that frag will crit or not (I dont think the code calculates the dmg done on impact- maybe it does? )- would be nice to know in a duel if i SHALL roll that frag
- I'd like to have highlighted on my opponent on stamblade if my dmg on assasins will+ incap is enough to kill my opponent at momentary resist and hp when its up considering both spells will crit- could also highlight in colours if one needs to crit or if it kills always when incap wont be blocked shuffled.
- an addon marking u which shield - if its not implemented yet should be recast and when considering the momentary situation.
- marking u as a sorc players using shieldbreaker- as nb marking players using mark target
- fun would be an automatic set changer when im sneak and engage on a sorc it puts in a ligntning staff shieldbreaker and knightslayer so i can take him in 2 heavies down when he is shielded

or lets go a step further:
if an attack incoming would kill u- the addon overwrites ur actions and shields, rolls or whatever appropiate for ur char.

or lets go so far that we let bots move our chars - openAI beats most professional dota 2 players- in eso duels a bot would for sure outperform any human player by miles.

pieratsos · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@pieratsos

I'm not using the notifications. But I can see why you would. ZOS won't adjust stealth gameplay. It took them 3 years to get rid of the bonus damage. It's either accept that you're going to die by someone who thinks "you can't see me but I can kill you" is the pinnacle of a fun experience or you run the addon. I chose the former because dying in Cyro is something I'm used to by now. But the second option certainly has appeal because ZOS doesn't care.

Shieldstacking is also a problem for years now. Seems like its never going to be fixed either so i guess we should advocate for shieldbreaker now. Thats what you are saying basically.

Stealth is not as bad as you make it to be. That guaranteed death by every potato stacking procs is over for the most part. Sure there are still issues and snipe is probably the most horribly designed skill in the entire game but still, thats not a reason to advocate for an equally stupid mechanic to counter it. Especially when that mechanic does a lot more than to just counter that.

And how do you even expect broken mechanics to get balanced when there are other stupid mechanics to counter them. They just wont. Its literally impossible to get balance with so many issues. How do you even expect to see a more skilled gameplay when things that are completely unrelated to ur skill can drastically increase ur performance.

I can understand being forced to take self enhancing drugs to be able to compete with other athletes taking them. That doesnt mean they are good for your health.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

So you can't reliably dodge it every single time without this addon while fighting multiple enemies. And that's a bad thing?

I hope you realize how ridiculous that sounds. Why would anyone use a skill that never connects? Food for thought.

Since i can do that against fragments if hardcasted, darkflare or destro heavyattacks - yes i think it´s a bad thing it does not work that way for me with snipe (and for other players alike).

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Not unless you have the addon anyway, which just lets you dodge during the cast bar & dodge everything (including the CC), essentially making all those skills useless.

Derra wrote: »

As for comparing 20k burst from a sorc (with debuffaddon warning and blue glow on char) to comparing 20k burst from 1 ability from sneak - welp if you´re that desperate for arguments. You´re digging yourself a pretty hole there.

Curse isn't all of the burst (and besides, it's undodgeable/blockable) and you know damn well it can be combo'd with things like DBOS, Meteor+Rune Cage, Soul Assault etc to pretty much guarantee a kill on any of those pesky archers.

It sounds like you're the one desperate for arguments.

Derra wrote: »

We´d have had the same poor builddiversity in 2014 if players had the same knowledge back then. It´s the way things go in every mmo. There are clearly superior templates and loadouts everyone runs.
Eso is still one of the most diverse mmos i´ve played over the past 16 years.

Well, you must not have played many MMOs then. I struggle to come up with any that had less playable archetypes.

In ESO you've currently got heavy armor "brawlers" & sorcs and that's pretty much it. I guess it's fine if you happen to be playing one of those two archetypes.

The build diversity in 2014 was better in large part because bow (1/6 of weapon types) was able to fill a niche (ganking) and because people could actually run out of resources in combat due to soft caps & different (better) balance.

Dodge rolling to avoid attacks was actually extremely resource friendly and avoided most attacks, which meant you could beat light/heavy armor builds in duels as well by outsustaining them.

Derra wrote: »

I think vanilla wow was one of the worst examples about how stealth should be implemented you could have given me. Having seen what shurrik put out on his rougue was absolutely gross and shows 100% of the "enjoyable gameplay means I enjoy it" mindset.

enjoyable gameplay means I enjoy it" mindset

The irony...

laissezfaire · October 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I look at ganking like this . It's real . You can get ganked irl . Snipers gank people in war since dawn of war . People get ganked in dark Alleys , parking structures and hallways . There's no add ons irl to protect you from getting jumped so people walk in groups for safety . This is how gangs get started or what we call guilds in ESO . It's not fair and it's fun but it's real and it encourages people to group for safety .

Eso was made with this system so if you don't think it's fair then tell the Devs . They liked it enough to write it into the game and have never stated it will ever be removed . Mainly because it is a mechanic apart of the ES franchise . No need to change a franchise you don't like just find one you do .

Skill is a relative term in a game where two or more people try to out type one another . My grandfather , rest his soul would be infuriated at anyone throwing around the word skill when it comes to typing . He was a Navy engineer . He believed skill only belonged to things you had to attend university to achieve . Everything else was something a cave man could eventually figure out . Things that were so common the vast majority could all do was not a skill to him .

So morality aside and interpretations of skill aside , ESO is a game with a stealth attack mechanic intentionally designed by the creators . It is intended . It was not intended to be bypassed hence the reason for the API changes made after the creation of Miat's . Their API changes just did not achieve what most had hoped . More then likely because ZoS didn't know how exactly to do this right the first time . But they made their intention with their game clear when they tried to remove stealth detection . The fix was not suppose to give any info on enemy players in stealth . Well @ZOS_RichLambert , you tried but it didn't work . That info is still being transmitted .

Not a very good comparison... irl, you are not invisible... take away perma-crouch and there would be one less reason to have the alerts.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

well you can do the same for darkflare then and frags most of the time is the cc.
I don´t get where you´re coming from.

It only makes the fight unenjoyable for them when they´re coming from a position where their intention was to make it unenjoyable for me. That´s the whole point. Now you´re getting it.
The addon has only metagame implications when fighting someone who is aware of you.

The funniest part is i don´t even use the casttimer of the addon i have it hidden under my chat window. I just use the audio cue that playes when the projectile fires

Jade1986 · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

well you can do the same for darkflare then and frags most of the time is the cc.
I don´t get where you´re coming from.

It only makes the fight unenjoyable for them when they´re coming from a position where their intention was to make it unenjoyable for me. That´s the whole point. Now you´re getting it.
The addon has only metagame implications when fighting someone who is aware of you.

The funniest part is i don´t even use the casttimer of the addon i have it hidden under my chat window. I just use the audio cue that playes when the projectile fires

I find it absolutely hilarious that you think you are advocating in favor of everyone here. You are literally saying, in a very jumbled and desperate way, that " screw stealth players because I am incapable of countering them, and screw ranged players because I cant counter them without being spoon fed" Yet somehow the people against this add on who realize there ARE counters to it are the people that make your gameplay ( the me me me attitude at its finest ) unenjoyable are bias!? There is literally no reason to even debate with you because clearly only your gameplay matters, and everyone else be damned.

Koensol · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

*Bla bla bla*

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

Aah there we have it. The undeniable bias and personal frustration that lies at the source of your whole argument.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

well you can do the same for darkflare then and frags most of the time is the cc.
I don´t get where you´re coming from.

Then you should read that again.

Derra wrote: »

It only makes the fight unenjoyable for them when they´re coming from a position where their intention was to make it unenjoyable for me. That´s the whole point. Now you´re getting it.
The addon has only metagame implications when fighting someone who is aware of you.

No, it makes the fight unenjoyable for them in any scenario, no matter what their intentions were.

You can't cloak->snipe combo mid-fight if your opponent can see exactly what you're doing while cloaked.
You can't hide your cast time animation by being far away or behind pet/obstacle.
You can't land a cast time ability, period.

Besides, why are you talking about intentions? Everyone's intention is to beat the opponent, and I bet most people find dying/losing unenjoyable.

Should ZOS make dying obsolete by having people hang around at 1 HP instead, because most people don't like losing? No, of course not.

And why is your enjoyment more important than other peoples'?

Absurd.

Derra wrote: »

The funniest part is i don´t even use the casttimer of the addon i have it hidden under my chat window. I just use the audio cue that playes when the projectile fires

Yeah, so you practically don't even know what I'm talking about? Perfect.

Why do I waste time talking to ***s?

Feanor · October 2017

Koensol wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

*Bla bla bla*

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

Aah there we have it. The undeniable bias and personal frustration that lies at the source of your whole argument.

If that were so I'd use the notifications.

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

*Bla bla bla*

I'm just tired about that stealth BS. It has cowardice written all over it.

Aah there we have it. The undeniable bias and personal frustration that lies at the source of your whole argument.

If that were so I'd use the notifications.

So you don't use them either?

What a coincidence that everyone defending these cheats is not using them.

Maybe come back after trying them out & seeing how broken it is rather than just rambling about how horrible & op stealth bow users are?

Pst, this addon does nothing against melee stealth burst which is 10x more deadly & will instagib you with zero notification (no audio/visual cues even), unlike bow burst.

Feanor · October 2017

@DDuke

Why would I use them? Tried them out, didn't like them, kept some parts of the addon active (like kill feed and objective list), and play in Cyrodiil like I always did. All I'm saying I can see why anyone would use it given the way stealth is.

I find it funny you "don't like the way stealth is in this game either", but are hell bent on keeping it the way it is.

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Why would I use them? Tried them out, didn't like them, kept some parts of the addon active (like kill feed and objective list), and play in Cyrodiil like I always did. All I'm saying I can see why anyone would use it given the way stealth is.

I find it funny you "don't like the way stealth is in this game either", but are hell bent on keeping it the way it is.

"the way it is", as in garbage? Why would I want that?

No, I want to see more abilities that have special effects from stealth (like Surprise Attack), more stealth granting abilities/ultimates & overall just more depth to stealth gameplay.

I also want to see more skill based stealth like I lined up years ago: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/190500/visual-cues-for-stealthed-enemies

But that's not what this topic is about, although it's related to stealth (just like it's related to everything else in game). It's about cast time abilities and them being useless when the API permits people to see opponents cast bars (whether stealthed or not, in LoS or not, whether you can see the cast animation or not).

As for why you'd use this addon, do I need to demonstrate you why? You play EU, right?

Try and Dark Flare->Jav me when I use this addon, try to land any cast time ability. Try to land a heavy attack.

The fact you don't know why you'd use this addon just demonstrates that you don't truly understand what the thread is about.

Feanor · October 2017

@DDuke

You want stealth without Miat's addon. That's what I was referring to. Thanks for the link to your thread from 2015. It's some background where you're aiming at. While I disagree with some of your ideas, I like the concept of stealth being something you can have counterplay against while not having to specifically build for it. Your suggestion would make picking up the clues an actual player skill. This would be far more interesting than slotting RML and chug a detect pot.

It would be nice also if you weren't so triggered. I have kept civil throughout the entire discussion, and I'd appreciate if you just calm down a bit. I have no horse in that race. If ZOS decided to take away those specific API calls, fine. I won't be crying. At the same time I just wish that the addon wasn't the venue of a need for many players - of stealth were less garbage, as you put it, we wouldn't need the addon in the first place.

And yes, I'm fully aware what the addon does. I just chose to not run the attack detection. Not everyone in Cyrodiil is about winning at all cost. I actually feel pity for all those gankers, especially the horse ganker variety.

Derra · October 2017

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lol. Again with the bs.

You think you can reliably dodge a close range Dark Flare combo'd with a javelin? Think again.

Same with close range Frags & Heavy Attacks, you can't reliably dodge any of those when combo'd with quick CC.

As it bloody well should be.

Can you dodge the snipe when you combo it with a cc? Nah. Well so everything is good

Yeah you can, because you can see the bloody cast timer for the Snipe & dodge roll during it to avoid both Snipe & the combo CC.

What are you not getting? Is it truly that complicated?

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

The irony...

It´s only ironic when you put it out of context. I try to refrain using any form of skill/build (harness, soulassault, dark deal, line of sight, heavyarmor + 1h shield etc pp.) that can make a fight unenjoyable by design of that skill or mechanic - for various reasons.

Getting instarekt from sneak can´t be enjoyable going by that principle because when you´re dead instantly there is no fight happening.

Yet you're fine with using a 3rd party plugin that not only makes a fight unenjoyable to the person using cast time abilities, but unwinnable as well.

Also, not everyone adheres to your "noble" code - painfully evident to anyone using medium armor (yet you don't see people demanding those skills & playstyles be made entirely useless or "removed" via an addon).

well you can do the same for darkflare then and frags most of the time is the cc.
I don´t get where you´re coming from.

It only makes the fight unenjoyable for them when they´re coming from a position where their intention was to make it unenjoyable for me. That´s the whole point. Now you´re getting it.
The addon has only metagame implications when fighting someone who is aware of you.

The funniest part is i don´t even use the casttimer of the addon i have it hidden under my chat window. I just use the audio cue that playes when the projectile fires

I find it absolutely hilarious that you think you are advocating in favor of everyone here. You are literally saying, in a very jumbled and desperate way, that " screw stealth players because I am incapable of countering them, and screw ranged players because I cant counter them without being spoon fed" Yet somehow the people against this add on who realize there ARE counters to it are the people that make your gameplay ( the me me me attitude at its finest ) unenjoyable. There is literally no reason to even debate with you because clearly only your gameplay matters, and everyone else be damned.

Ok tell me how you counter permanent sneak in regards to that making it impossible to realisticly assess a situation?

Also i am playing ranged. I´m saying from experience and fighting other players that use this addon that it is not an issue to fight against unless fighting someone not aware of you.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

You can't land a cast time ability, period.

You can and you do.

Source: Me. I do it all the time.

If you can´t do it - must be personal issue. Perhaps the same i have with hearing snipe

DDuke wrote: »

Besides, why are you talking about intentions? Everyone's intention is to beat the opponent, and I bet most people find dying/losing unenjoyable.

See - my intention is having fun fights. If i loose a nice fight i´m good.
The problem is if i get hit from two snipes i didn´t hear bc of game or dirty ear reasons i don´t/can´t have a fun fight - because at that moment counterplay is nonexistent for me and i die without being able to do sth about it.

Also i know what you mean about the castbar. I have just found it to be so irrelevant for my gameplay that i moved that thing away as it was more distracting than useful. And since i never attack from sneak and generally make opponents aware of my presence by lightattacking i´ve found it to be irrelevant when used by my opponents aswell.
That´s why i say it only impairs gameplay for stealth/sneak. I have not found it to be hindering me in any form or shape on sorc or NB.

The audio of the addon is useful for me when fighting outnumbered.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You can't land a cast time ability, period.

You can and you do.

Source: Me. I do it all the time.

If you can´t do it - must be personal issue. Perhaps the same i have with hearing snipe

Is that so? I'll bet you 10 million gold you can't land a single heavy attack or cast time ability against me when I use this addon.

The only people you can actually land those on are people not using this addon.

And no, instant cast frag is not a "cast time ability".

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Besides, why are you talking about intentions? Everyone's intention is to beat the opponent, and I bet most people find dying/losing unenjoyable.

See - my intention is having fun fights. If i loose a nice fight i´m good.
The problem is if i get hit from two snipes i didn´t hear bc of game or dirty ear reasons i don´t/can´t have a fun fight - because at that moment counterplay is nonexistent for me and i die without being able to do sth about it.

Oh? I don't find fighting against permablock magicka DKs fun, perhaps someone should create an addon that makes my attacks go through block or ZOS should disable blocking /s

Also, do you think a bow user's or Dark Flare magplar's idea of a "fun fight" is their opponent dodging every single burst combo they make?

Your ability to see this from no other perspective but your own is astounding.

Derra wrote: »

Also i know what you mean about the castbar. I have just found it to be so irrelevant for my gameplay that i moved that thing away as it was more distracting than useful. And since i never attack from sneak and generally make opponents aware of my presence by lightattacking i´ve found it to be irrelevant when used by my opponents aswell.
That´s why i say it only impairs gameplay for stealth/sneak. I have not found it to be hindering me in any form or shape on sorc or NB.

The audio of the addon is useful for me when fighting outnumbered.

Again, you fail to see this from any other perspective but that of a person not really using cast time abilities.

Truly astounding, that level of selfishness and the lengths you go to, to defend cheating.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You can't land a cast time ability, period.

You can and you do.

Source: Me. I do it all the time.

If you can´t do it - must be personal issue. Perhaps the same i have with hearing snipe

Is that so? I'll bet you 10 million gold you can't land a single heavy attack or cast time ability against me when I use this addon.

The only people you can actually land those on are people not using this addon.

And no, instant cast frag is not a "cast time ability".

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Besides, why are you talking about intentions? Everyone's intention is to beat the opponent, and I bet most people find dying/losing unenjoyable.

See - my intention is having fun fights. If i loose a nice fight i´m good.
The problem is if i get hit from two snipes i didn´t hear bc of game or dirty ear reasons i don´t/can´t have a fun fight - because at that moment counterplay is nonexistent for me and i die without being able to do sth about it.

Oh? I don't find fighting against permablock magicka DKs fun, perhaps someone should create an addon that makes my attacks go through block or ZOS should disable blocking /s

Also, do you think a bow user's or Dark Flare magplar's idea of a "fun fight" is their opponent dodging every single burst combo they make?

Your ability to see this from no other perspective but your own is astounding.

Derra wrote: »

Also i know what you mean about the castbar. I have just found it to be so irrelevant for my gameplay that i moved that thing away as it was more distracting than useful. And since i never attack from sneak and generally make opponents aware of my presence by lightattacking i´ve found it to be irrelevant when used by my opponents aswell.
That´s why i say it only impairs gameplay for stealth/sneak. I have not found it to be hindering me in any form or shape on sorc or NB.

The audio of the addon is useful for me when fighting outnumbered.

Again, you fail to see this from any other perspective but that of a person not really using cast time abilities.

Truly astounding, that level of selfishness and the lengths you go to, to defend cheating.

Deci - you´re just being uncreative. When i encounter someone who uses this addon i intentionally hardcast frags (even more than i normally do). It´s part of my sorc playstyle. I do hardcast frags like a pleb.
When someone dodges on cast animation i´ll cancel and do it again.
When i say it is not hindering me on NB or Sorc using hardcasted frags - that means i fail to see how it could hinder anyone apart from attacking someone who´s unaware of your presence.
I don´t think templar is miraculously different when utilizing casttime skills compared to sorc.
I especially fail to see how it makes utilizing snipe on NB impossible because you can use it in combination with cloak.

There is a difference between fighting someone and that not being fun because you can not kill them and getting killed without counterplay though.
Or are you truely saying that you can´t just walk away from a target you can´t kill - on a NB?
The permablocking magDK makes for an unenjoyable fight. But he does not make you respawn.

As for landing attacks on you using the addon. I don´t think i´m landing any attacks on someone who just tries to avoid them. Nothing to prove here. Especially on a NB with cloak + dodge on a projectile build - so no idea what you want to prove.

Edit: I should have accepted the 10 million gold and channeled a resto heavy with a detect immovable pot

Edit2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbFbcpPd3uM
You just reminded me of that video. No hard feelings

DDuke · October 2017

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

You want stealth without Miat's addon. That's what I was referring to. Thanks for the link to your thread from 2015. It's some background where you're aiming at. While I disagree with some of your ideas, I like the concept of stealth being something you can have counterplay against while not having to specifically build for it. Your suggestion would make picking up the clues an actual player skill. This would be far more interesting than slotting RML and chug a detect pot.

It would be nice also if you weren't so triggered. I have kept civil throughout the entire discussion, and I'd appreciate if you just calm down a bit. I have no horse in that race. If ZOS decided to take away those specific API calls, fine. I won't be crying. At the same time I just wish that the addon wasn't the venue of a need for many players - of stealth were less garbage, as you put it, we wouldn't need the addon in the first place.

And yes, I'm fully aware what the addon does. I just chose to not run the attack detection. Not everyone in Cyrodiil is about winning at all cost. I actually feel pity for all those gankers, especially the horse ganker variety.

You'll find that I can be a reasonable person, just not when it comes to cheating.

Hell, I probably even agree with many of your grievances regarding stealth - I just don't feel like advertising that too much as long as medium is as weak as it is (the only redeeming quality being better stealth burst).

But the things the API permits... they're as much of a cheat as Cheat Engine in my mind - it's practically like "set stat: evade 100% vs cast time abilities".

It doesn't just make the game "unenjoyable" for builds using cast time abilities as their main burst, it makes the game unplayable.

I literally cannot do anything but log in, do writs, log off as long as these API functions exist, because I don't feel like playing one of the meta heavy armor clown builds.

This kills the entire game for me - hence the "triggering" when someone tries to defend or justify the existence of this shite.

DDuke · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You can't land a cast time ability, period.

You can and you do.

Source: Me. I do it all the time.

If you can´t do it - must be personal issue. Perhaps the same i have with hearing snipe

Is that so? I'll bet you 10 million gold you can't land a single heavy attack or cast time ability against me when I use this addon.

The only people you can actually land those on are people not using this addon.

And no, instant cast frag is not a "cast time ability".

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Besides, why are you talking about intentions? Everyone's intention is to beat the opponent, and I bet most people find dying/losing unenjoyable.

See - my intention is having fun fights. If i loose a nice fight i´m good.
The problem is if i get hit from two snipes i didn´t hear bc of game or dirty ear reasons i don´t/can´t have a fun fight - because at that moment counterplay is nonexistent for me and i die without being able to do sth about it.

Oh? I don't find fighting against permablock magicka DKs fun, perhaps someone should create an addon that makes my attacks go through block or ZOS should disable blocking /s

Also, do you think a bow user's or Dark Flare magplar's idea of a "fun fight" is their opponent dodging every single burst combo they make?

Your ability to see this from no other perspective but your own is astounding.

Derra wrote: »

Also i know what you mean about the castbar. I have just found it to be so irrelevant for my gameplay that i moved that thing away as it was more distracting than useful. And since i never attack from sneak and generally make opponents aware of my presence by lightattacking i´ve found it to be irrelevant when used by my opponents aswell.
That´s why i say it only impairs gameplay for stealth/sneak. I have not found it to be hindering me in any form or shape on sorc or NB.

The audio of the addon is useful for me when fighting outnumbered.

Again, you fail to see this from any other perspective but that of a person not really using cast time abilities.

Truly astounding, that level of selfishness and the lengths you go to, to defend cheating.

Deci - you´re just being uncreative. When i encounter someone who uses this addon i intentionally hardcast frags (even more than i normally do). It´s part of my sorc playstyle. I do hardcast frags like a pleb.
When someone dodges on cast animation i´ll cancel and do it again.

Yeah, you try that against my melee stamblade - see what happens.

Derra wrote: »

When i say it is not hindering me on NB or Sorc using hardcasted frags - that means i fail to see how it could hinder anyone apart from attacking someone who´s unaware of your presence.

You fail to see how someone spamming Snipe or Dark Flare in the open against an opponent might not be a good idea? That's not how you utilize those skills.

Derra wrote: »

I don´t think templar is miraculously different when utilizing casttime skills compared to sorc.

Perhaps because that Dark Flare cannot become instant cast and is a dead skill on your bar if someone gets an obvious 1s notification before the skill is even in the air, regardless of if the templar is in stealth, out of your camera angle, trying to hide his/her cast animation?

Derra wrote: »

I especially fail to see how it makes utilizing snipe on NB impossible because you can use it in combination with cloak.

Have you been listening at all? How the F do you expect to land that snipe if your opponent gets a 1,1s cast bar flashing on the screen when you try to snipe during that cloak?

I've lost count how many times I've had to say this.

The existence of these bs API functions is precisely why you can't use it in combination with cloak or anything else.

Derra wrote: »

There is a difference between fighting someone and that not being fun because you can not kill them and getting killed without counterplay though.
Or are you truely saying that you can´t just walk away from a target you can´t kill - on a NB?
The permablocking magDK makes for an unenjoyable fight. But he does not make you respawn.

A permablock magicka DK who spams snares & roots at you while proccing Skorias every 3rd second, outdamaging your Vigor with their DoTs, uncloaking you with Volatile Armor spam & Leaping/Soul Assaulting you to death because you don't play a meta heavy armor build?

Yeah, they do make you respawn. Which game are you playing?

Derra wrote: »

As for landing attacks on you using the addon. I don´t think i´m landing any attacks on someone who just tries to avoid them. Nothing to prove here. Especially on a NB with cloak + dodge on a projectile build - so no idea what you want to prove.

The point is that you don't know when to avoid them without this addon.

Without this addon, it's highly unlikely you manage to dodge even half of Dark Flare->Jav combos.
With this addon? You dodge 100% of them.

Same with cloak->snipes, especially if you're an opponent not aware of the combo.

Simply put, the API & these addons ruin these builds.

Derra wrote: »

Edit: I should have accepted the 10 million gold and channeled a resto heavy with a detect immovable pot

Cute, but I was referring to inferno/frost staff heavy attacks.

Minno · October 2017

@Derra and @DDuke , Guys keep it simple.

Fact:
Miat's add-on was tested by zos in another thread. But I forget if they said they were going to give their official ruling? I know they said the stealth component was fine.

The add on isn't pooling anything that the game hasn't locked.

Game intent by Sage was that they prefer the animation and audio cues to be the stimulai that the players reacts around them with UI helping in some cases, instead of icons with timers. Before launch they banned an add-on that let you see your targets Stam/mag levels in real time. In pve, they removed group combat DPS meters, because they were being used to kick players out of group or unlawfully restrict more casual players from content (which there game was intended to be for both casuals and die hard mmo players)

Speculation:
I don't think ZoS has reviewed the addon's cast time feature in relation to how it impacts PvP. I don't think they are going to anytime soon.

Someone once said in past threads that the information going to the server isn't in the native ui for certain cases. Like Crystal frags being counted as direct DMG when it's coming at you through normal animation/audio cues, yet because of its cc component mists add-on can give a warning. I can't remember if that was the case, but if so, it treads on that line of "is it progressing the UI or providing advantage?"

Conclusion:
It depends what zos's design intent for the game is in 2017 versus 2014. Sage knew the pitfalls of what their API could bring to the table and with his leave this intent could have left along with him. It's highly possible Sage's intent is still in front as wrobel is still promoting use of cast time abilities as viable PvP abilities when on PC we have this add-on that warns us of a cast time ability being cast. Or it's highly possible consoles perspective on the game is what's driving a majority of the balance and changes we see and that it's the wild-wild-west out there for us PC gamers.

Are we to use animations for how we react to spells in 2017? Or addon's displaying various amounts of information? Either way it would be great if ZoS could rule this and other add-ons or give us an update on their design intent.

Derra · October 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

You want stealth without Miat's addon. That's what I was referring to. Thanks for the link to your thread from 2015. It's some background where you're aiming at. While I disagree with some of your ideas, I like the concept of stealth being something you can have counterplay against while not having to specifically build for it. Your suggestion would make picking up the clues an actual player skill. This would be far more interesting than slotting RML and chug a detect pot.

It would be nice also if you weren't so triggered. I have kept civil throughout the entire discussion, and I'd appreciate if you just calm down a bit. I have no horse in that race. If ZOS decided to take away those specific API calls, fine. I won't be crying. At the same time I just wish that the addon wasn't the venue of a need for many players - of stealth were less garbage, as you put it, we wouldn't need the addon in the first place.

And yes, I'm fully aware what the addon does. I just chose to not run the attack detection. Not everyone in Cyrodiil is about winning at all cost. I actually feel pity for all those gankers, especially the horse ganker variety.

You'll find that I can be a reasonable person, just not when it comes to cheating.

Hell, I probably even agree with many of your grievances regarding stealth - I just don't feel like advertising that too much as long as medium is as weak as it is (the only redeeming quality being better stealth burst).

But the things the API permits... they're as much of a cheat as Cheat Engine in my mind - it's practically like "set stat: evade 100% vs cast time abilities".

It doesn't just make the game "unenjoyable" for builds using cast time abilities as their main burst, it makes the game unplayable.

I literally cannot do anything but log in, do writs, log off as long as these API functions exist, because I don't feel like playing one of the meta heavy armor clown builds.

This kills the entire game for me - hence the "triggering" when someone tries to defend or justify the existence of this shite.

I´d probably be happy if it was removed tomorrow because cyrodiil would become a lot easier again as not every potatoe would dodge the first 3 frags before being out of stam.

But i try to atleast adapt the mindset why this addon was created (and apart from the casttime function it´s probably one if not the best addon for pvp eso offers). Partially because i share probably most of the thoughts that lead to the creation of this addon.

You personally will have more issues because your builds always tend (atleast from my perspective of an outsider) to prefer damage over sustain.
That automatically reduces the error margin for your play.
The addon now effectively annihilates the margin of error you had in your builds because every enemy will drain your stats far beyond what they normally would/could.
Hence i agree it probably destroys your playstyle.

As for why i´m using it: I have a very clear stance regarding bugabuse/cheating. I don´t tolerate or condone it and i don´t do it myself.
The problem with this addon is sadly that zos reviewed it multiple times and even changed the API because of this. However the casttime function is still alive and kickin (god knows why).
That means they either deem that feature fine as is or have no idea how to change it. At this point with how popular this addon is not using it puts you at a tremendous disadvantage in cyro (only for the audiocue for instantcast projectile ccs - which is the only function i´m using).

Also i have to admit it was kinda funny seeing you go mad

But yeah i agree the function to see casttimes should not exist. However with the way it does exist i hardly can blame anyone for using it.

SodanTok · October 2017

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

You want stealth without Miat's addon. That's what I was referring to. Thanks for the link to your thread from 2015. It's some background where you're aiming at. While I disagree with some of your ideas, I like the concept of stealth being something you can have counterplay against while not having to specifically build for it. Your suggestion would make picking up the clues an actual player skill. This would be far more interesting than slotting RML and chug a detect pot.

It would be nice also if you weren't so triggered. I have kept civil throughout the entire discussion, and I'd appreciate if you just calm down a bit. I have no horse in that race. If ZOS decided to take away those specific API calls, fine. I won't be crying. At the same time I just wish that the addon wasn't the venue of a need for many players - of stealth were less garbage, as you put it, we wouldn't need the addon in the first place.

And yes, I'm fully aware what the addon does. I just chose to not run the attack detection. Not everyone in Cyrodiil is about winning at all cost. I actually feel pity for all those gankers, especially the horse ganker variety.

You'll find that I can be a reasonable person, just not when it comes to cheating.

Hell, I probably even agree with many of your grievances regarding stealth - I just don't feel like advertising that too much as long as medium is as weak as it is (the only redeeming quality being better stealth burst).

But the things the API permits... they're as much of a cheat as Cheat Engine in my mind - it's practically like "set stat: evade 100% vs cast time abilities".

It doesn't just make the game "unenjoyable" for builds using cast time abilities as their main burst, it makes the game unplayable.

I literally cannot do anything but log in, do writs, log off as long as these API functions exist, because I don't feel like playing one of the meta heavy armor clown builds.

This kills the entire game for me - hence the "triggering" when someone tries to defend or justify the existence of this shite.

As for why i´m using it: I have a very clear stance regarding bugabuse/cheating. I don´t tolerate or condone it and i don´t do it myself.
The problem with this addon is sadly that zos reviewed it multiple times and even changed the API because of this. However the casttime function is still alive and kickin (god knows why).
That means they either deem that feature fine as is or have no idea how to change it. At this point with how popular this addon is not using it puts you at a tremendous disadvantage in cyro (only for the audiocue for instantcast projectile ccs - which is the only function i´m using).

Thats the things. Was it really multiple times? I remember just 2 reactions by ZoS towards it. One being after the backslash that it detects stealth (people complained and knew only about this part!) and ZoS said thats fine. Then suddenly removed it from API (thank god). So unless there was another response much later I consider their only reaction be towards stealth detection and even on that they backed away so I dont think there is single response than can be considered official (for or against the addon).
And all that happend before this addon became so popular.

We have active threads about this every month in nearly all forum categories yet they responded exactly 0 times. That is not a way to say "we are fine with this" that is say "we dont care and we dont want other know we dont care"