Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

DDuke

I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.


This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):

https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE

An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.

It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).


Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.


Update: apparently ZOS always intended to remove every notification for attacks from stealthed enemies. However, the fix they implemented half a year ago only fixed heavy attacks and made those not display. See this thread and the comments from ZOS employee: http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6745

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg: I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

SHADOW2KK

DDuke wrote: »

I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.


This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):

https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE

An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.

It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).


Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.

Aye agreed, way too much like a cheat mode addons like some of miats addons...

Juhasow

This function works again ?

lucky_Sage

how is that not banned

Dorrino

*lurks*

btw, thanks for free advertisement

Maikon

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks*

btw, thanks for free advertisement

^

Maikon

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

ecru

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

I think the point of the thread is that it shouldn't be allowed, and I agree. People should continue making threads until the api is changed in such a way that the addon no longer functions as it currently does.

SHADOW2KK

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

Juhasow

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

You know You can tell excatly the same thing about ganking ?

Minno

Juhasow wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

You know You can tell excatly the same thing about ganking ?

Same can be said of holding down the block button (first and easy counter to ganks) lol.

Maikon

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

It's also funny how no one says anything about streamers using miats, but you all *** hug them like they're great, when in reality they're nothing.

Minno

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

SHADOW2KK

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

It's also funny how no one says anything about streamers using miats, but you all *** hug them like they're great, when in reality they're nothing.

Bit general of you there, I really could not care less about streamers, they mean nothing to me, some of us are not sheep, and I do agree with you, they are nothing.

Ani cancelling is a thing most of us do, but it does not give you a hint about opposing players cast timers on you.

Maikon

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

IAVITNI

Maikon wrote: »

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

If your opponent can animation cancel 6 different skills to your face, you kind of deserve it. Not sure what combo you're referring to but all the burst I know is telegraphed fairy early allowing you to mitigate a portion of it, except maybe snipe spam but I play no volume.

Minno wrote: »

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

I'm glad MIAT isn't on console. Also kind of sad because as I said, i really get 0 cues for snipes xD

Minno

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

But an add-on that renders cast time abilities obsolete is fine?

If AC is not skill or fair, having no reliable cast time abilities means more players will move towards instant cast and AC friendly combos/skills.

It's probably in your best interest to support the change to the API.

Mystrius_Archaion

FYI, this isn't the only game with those options. Often developers include it for the reason of seeing NPC enemy cast bars to know when to interrupt or dodge or block, especially for the situation where the player has trouble seeing the on screen animation on the enemy.

This is not a cheat nor is it ever going away. You can see the skill animation on the character at the same time anyway. The addon just makes it a little easier.

Sorry, you just got to learn to live with it.

Maikon

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

But an add-on that renders cast time abilities obsolete is fine?

If AC is not skill or fair, having no reliable cast time abilities means more players will move towards instant cast and AC friendly combos/skills.

It's probably in your best interest to support the change to the API.

They've already made changes to the API, and personally, I would like them to revert it back to what it originally was, just so I can feed on the tears of all those that think it's "cheating".

Dymence

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

With this comment you only made it obvious that you know absolutely nothing about how the game mechanics actually work.

Maikon

Dymence wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

With this comment you only made it obvious that you know absolutely nothing about how the game mechanics actually work.

Then i'll be more specific. When a nb jumps outta stealth, hits you with 3 dizzy swings, an incap strike, and 2 lethal arrows all at the same time, that is not how the mechanics should work.

f047ys3v3n

I just thought I should add here that ZOS thought we should not be able to do dps metering of members in our group (and they broke our add on that did this) because apparently it is important to facilitate lying noobs but having add ons that basically find people in stealth in PVP or warn you when your are going to get hit before it happens is A-OK.

Mystrius_Archaion

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

I just thought I should add here that ZOS thought we should not be able to do dps metering of members in our group (and they broke our add on that did this) because apparently it is important to facilitate lying noobs but having add ons that basically find people in stealth in PVP or warn you when your are going to get hit before it happens is A-OK.

1) DPS metering shouldn't even matter. Winning or losing matters and those who don't contribute to that should be obvious without meters.

2) They break addons for other reasons. Mostly, they may want to do the function their own way in the future or it just causes too much load on the server communication when people have it on during a big chaotic already server pushing load time.

Dymence

Maikon wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

With this comment you only made it obvious that you know absolutely nothing about how the game mechanics actually work.

Then i'll be more specific. When a nb jumps outta stealth, hits you with 3 dizzy swings, an incap strike, and 2 lethal arrows all at the same time, that is not how the mechanics should work.

And that's not how animation cancelling works, either.

Animation cancelling cancels the animation of a skill. It does NOT bypass the global cooldown. The global cooldown is 1 second. You can never use more than 1 skill per second.

If you think you're getting hit by more, then it's either a macroslice or your lack of experience. It has nothing to do with animation cancelling.

Juhasow

Minno wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

You know You can tell excatly the same thing about ganking ?

Same can be said of holding down the block button (first and easy counter to ganks) lol.

Hmm so You wanna tell me since today You'll never hold off block after entering Cyrodill and You'll walk with block instead of running or riding horse ? Good luck

Mystrius_Archaion

Dymence wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

By that logic, I can say that animation cancelation should not be allowed either and should be completely removed.

Well no. Animation cancel, can still be seen and reacted to.

Having a countdown timer on someone's cast time ability renders that skill inconsistent, making players believe that skill to be inferior. When it comes time for balance feedback, it makes it more difficult to determine which cyro feedback is right.

Think of it this way, how do console players feel about cast times versus pc players? A majority look at the feedback PC players give and are thankful add-ons don't exist on their servers.

So, using animation cancelation to hit with 6 separate skills in a single instant is skill? I think not.

With this comment you only made it obvious that you know absolutely nothing about how the game mechanics actually work.

Then i'll be more specific. When a nb jumps outta stealth, hits you with 3 dizzy swings, an incap strike, and 2 lethal arrows all at the same time, that is not how the mechanics should work.

And that's not how animation cancelling works, either.

Animation cancelling cancels the animation of a skill. It does NOT bypass the global cooldown. The global cooldown is 1 second. You can never use more than 1 skill per second.

If you think you're getting hit by more, then it's either a macroslice or your lack of experience. It has nothing to do with animation cancelling.

Or lag catching up with you, and we all know pvp lags like hell often, especially in Cyrodiil.

Vapirko

I’d fully support them in restricting all addons in pvp that give you any information about your opponent.

zyk

The attack warnings of this addon are akin to what you see in tutorials for single player games. It's pretty awful to see these functions in a PVP game.

Dragath

god knows how upset a lot of players would be, if they would know whats really possible with the API.
miats is really harmless in comparison to other addons that you don't find on the usual sites.
there is a lot more stuff out there that is worse.
removing all the exploitable cues in the api would be a nightmare for them, and i highly suspect they don't want to go down that route.
keep in mind, there are a lot of even worse programs out there, changing a lot more stuff than you would ever be able to do through the api, and they can't / won't fix that problem either.

lucky_Sage

there shouldn't be any add ons that tell you when your opponents are charging attack at you add ons should not affect combat its cheating. that's like the only perk on console is there are less cheat stuff like that

Mystrius_Archaion

zyk wrote: »

The attack warnings of this addon are akin to what you see in tutorials for single player games. It's pretty awful to see these functions in a PVP game.

It's not a pvp game. PVP was shoehorned in. They made this an Elder Scrolls world game. It's why they can't get pvp balance right also.

As for the "attack warnings", that's how every auto-aim tab-target-lock game is. You will almost always know when an attack is coming so you can do something about it, which is why cloak doesn't last more than 3 seconds at a time and cost a lot of magicka while sneaking is much less powerful.
This game never had true FPS aiming, which is the only way you can have attacks that are complete surprises, and it never will.


Edit:
Even if they remove addons, the default UI offers "active combat tips" which tell players when to interrupt and block an enemy in range targeting them. It's already there and can be set to always show every time.