Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

Rohamad_Ali

Dorrino wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You said some things are beyond ur control and there would be a difference in results with or without the addon and concluded that you can do the same things.

I guess common sense isnt so common for you. No point discussing this even further.

I wonder why exactly people who argue against the addon have to use personal insults:)

What is that the addon does to people to behave like this?:D

I don't personally insult you and have no need to but the reasons others do so is pretty obvious to me . Many are saying the same thing . This add on strips power away from their characters . Anything that strips power away from characters in this game gets attacked . Someone calls for a nerf , they get attacked . A Dev nerfs a class , the Dev gets attacked . An ability gets removed or changed ... Attacked . When people feel powerless over a circumstance they look for a way to gain any form of control . Human nature . When you stepped in and changed the way the game played and no one had any power to object , this situation occurred . I thought you understood this as to my past post referencing Wrobels popularity but it appears you do not understand the position you placed yourself .

When people have no power to object or be given an option in the removal of their player character's power , they look at ways they can attack and here , they only have words as weapons . As you can see they sometimes choose the most hurtful because they see no reason to hold back against someone that left them with no options . Again , human nature . The more power taken with minimal ways of retaliation , the bigger the insults become . We would all prefer a world of pleasantries and compromising articulate conversation I believe but it's a formula that requires mutual respect and no taking things from one another . If you miss any variable in the formula it becomes a four letter war of wits .

I hope this helps ?

Koensol

Juhasow wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

SHADOW2KK wrote: »

Maikon wrote: »

Instead of making yet another QQ Miat's thread, maybe you should read the other 10,000 threads about it, and then you'd know why it's allowed.

Just because it is allowed, does not mean it is right, or fair.

End of the day, it is a unfair advantage.

But then I can imagine the sheer extent of scum bag players with no honour who would use them, but never mind, it is a QQ to you is it not?

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer killing opponents with skill and not relying on cheat like crutch addons like Miats stuff.

You know You can tell excatly the same thing about ganking ?

Same can be said of holding down the block button (first and easy counter to ganks) lol.

Hmm so You wanna tell me since today You'll never hold off block after entering Cyrodill and You'll walk with block instead of running or riding horse ? Good luck

Lol. I'm getting the impression that people think Miat's is the only way to prevent getting ganked/sniped. I mean, I don't use Miat because I think it is an insult to player skill and game mechanics, but you can literally HEAR snipe being fired at you. It's not that hard if you pay attention. You can also hear NBs in stealth using their buffs. It is called situational awareness.

Yesterday I was on horse, when someone fired snipe at me. I immediately blocked to dismount and rolldodged it. Then proceeded to destroy the 0 impen ganker. Then I got ragewhispered that I use cheese addons like Miat's. I mean wtf guys?

Your impression is incorrect I am not using Miat. Also it's hard to hear Snipe when it's fired from maximum distance or hen game is lagging (almost always) and Nb can buff himself in cloak long before he reaches You. Good ganker will never fail to such simple things like You hearing his buffing or snipe.

Good gankers? We are lucky then that there is almost no such thing in Cyrodiil. Still, even when they hit you with 1 attack, break free + dodge roll/block will often save you if you are fast enough. I agree lag can be a ***, but then again nothing works properly in lag. In normal circumstances you shouldn't have to die from a snipe ganker. If you do so consistently, you need to improve your situational awareness.

2h ult gankers on the other hand are a pure cancer. They can still legitimately 1 shot people.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

With your addon it's not only 4 snipes that will miss, you can cast 40 and they'll all miss.


Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.

@DDuke have you ever played a build that was not stamina based (aka being able to rolldodge more than three times without putting yourself in danger of cc=>ded) and did not cloak in cyrodiil?

Because the way you´re arguing makes it sound a lot like you´ve never played a build that is atleast susceptible to being sniped.

I´m getting sniped from an enemy i can´t see probably 50 to 70% of all fights i have in cyro.
If those were able to land the ability reliably the pvp would be even more zergy than it already is.
If sniping is really as bad as you´re making it out to be - why does everybody and their mother have a snipe build?

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

If nothing else, atleast I'll have farmed a decent amount of agrees by making this thread *shrug*

I don´t know if i´d even want to agree with a decent amount of people that press the button in that case

Zbigb4life

Players using this add on should be banned

SodanTok

We should make some betting. How many pages will this have? Will there be ZoS response? Will it be just mod removing some posts? Ok, betting on the last two could be boring.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

With your addon it's not only 4 snipes that will miss, you can cast 40 and they'll all miss.


Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.

@DDuke have you ever played a build that was not stamina based (aka being able to rolldodge more than three times without putting yourself in danger of cc=>ded) and did not cloak in cyrodiil?

Because the way you´re arguing makes it sound a lot like you´ve never played a build that is atleast susceptible to being sniped.

I´m getting sniped from an enemy i can´t see probably 50 to 70% of all fights i have in cyro.

Really? Most of the time I spend in PvP I spend in Sotha Sil (cba to swap between PvE & PvP CP allocations) & BGs. I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I saw anyone using Snipe, it's been so long.

Derra wrote: »

If those were able to land the ability reliably the pvp would be even more zergy than it already is.

That ability has never been able to reliably land, not even back when it dealt literally 3x more damage. Was the game any more zergy back then?

Derra wrote: »

If sniping is really as bad as you´re making it out to be - why does everybody and their mother have a snipe build?

If you think Snipe (or any other cast time ability) is viable in any way, shape or form, why don't you try those?

Even magicka builds can dodge 2-3 times, which is all it takes to get into range of someone using cast time abilities (remember, they slow you down), especially when you dodge not one but two snipes by dodge rolling once (you dodge the one in air and the one they're casting).


And yes, I've played other builds than stamina. Even made videos of them.

It's not like Snipe builds are the only ones affected by this addon - I can guarantee you that you'll land zero destro heavies as a sorc to someone using this addon - it makes even trying to utilize the heavy attack game mechanic useless (same as anything with a cast time).

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

If you think Snipe (or any other cast time ability) is viable in any way, shape or form, why don't you try those?

Even magicka builds can dodge 2-3 times, which is all it takes to get into range of someone using cast time abilities (remember, they slow you down), especially when you dodge not one but two snipes by dodge rolling once (you dodge the one in air and the one they're casting).


And yes, I've played other builds than stamina. Even made videos of them.

It's not like Snipe builds are the only ones affected by this addon - I can guarantee you that you'll land zero destro heavies as a sorc to someone using this addon - it makes even trying to utilize the heavy attack game mechanic useless (same as anything with a cast time).

I never said they were vaible for 1v1 encounters (though they are on NB somewhat).

Casttime skills areZerg and Xv1 abilities - and they´re doing relatively well at that - with snipe being the best out of any casttime abilities because it can be cast from a range where it´s impossible to interrupt.

I know that i´m affected negatively by this addon aswell. Matrixevade CF is a thing.

But then destro heavyattack also has a more clearcut soundcue than snipe that also gets played immediately when the projectile is fired (not shortly before it lands).
Why can i dodge every magica casttime projectile with a soundcue but snipe not? Maybe my ears are just really bad and i can´t hear it. Who knows.

Point is - half of the time i´m either unable to hear the snipe sound or it does not play. Since i can´t tell which reason it is but i can hear any other projectile soundcue i tend to lean towards snipe being bugged.

As long as that´s the case i rather have people evade every frags and heavyattack of me than dying to people that find it fun to sit in stealth for 15 minutes waiting to shoot an arrow in your knee while you´re fighting 3 other guys.
It´s really that simple.

I find dying to stealthganking snipers so unfun that i rather have my own gameplay impaired tremendously than let those people have an enjoyable playing experience.

Edit: btw you should probably go play CP to revisit your opinion. I get sniped for 10 to 12k per hit on my heavyarmor NB by the right players - in your video you mostly have ppl that snipe for ~3k? How is that even possible.

pieratsos

Dorrino wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

You said some things are beyond ur control and there would be a difference in results with or without the addon and concluded that you can do the same things.

I guess common sense isnt so common for you. No point discussing this even further.

I wonder why exactly people who argue against the addon have to use personal insults:)

What is that the addon does to people to behave like this?:D

'The same' doesn't mean 'exactly the same', obviously. The same in this context was supposed to mean 'of a similar quality'.

Without UI at all i'd be able to do the sam.. things of a similar quality as well:) With even higher probability of mistake.

Similar quality - still can successfully fight say, 5 people. Still can properly use terrain and other type of situational awareness. Etc, etc.

None of the addons provides exactly the same effectiveness because why would people even use the addons?:)

You are literally arguing against common sense. They told you why its bad, your arguments actually prove the point they try to make and yet you are still arguing that it doesnt and you even contradict your own arguments. So no its not people arguing against the addon. Its just people specifically arguing with you.

Just because you can still play the game it doesnt mean that you can do the same things without it. It gives you the ability to do things you wouldnt normally be able to do cause they are simply beyond human capabilities, it drastically reduces ur chances of doing mistakes and significantly increases your success rate. And all that are unrelated to ur skill. That by definition means you cant f'cking do the same things without it.

A football player taking self enhancing drugs doesnt mean its ok and that he can do the same things without the drugs because he can still kick the ball. Thats an asinine statement to make. And while the game may not be competitive it still doesnt change the functionality of the addon and what it does.

The fact that the addon wouldnt exist if this was a competitive game is actually a proof of what people say. That it takes away skill from the game. You cant argue that, its a fact, its common sense, its something you even indirectly admitted many times.
So stop arguing against it.

You use it/made it because it improves ur results and it serves as a weapon against playstyles you personally dont like but thats all there is to it. Its just about how you personally like to experience the game. It still doesnt change what it does.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If you think Snipe (or any other cast time ability) is viable in any way, shape or form, why don't you try those?

Even magicka builds can dodge 2-3 times, which is all it takes to get into range of someone using cast time abilities (remember, they slow you down), especially when you dodge not one but two snipes by dodge rolling once (you dodge the one in air and the one they're casting).


And yes, I've played other builds than stamina. Even made videos of them.

It's not like Snipe builds are the only ones affected by this addon - I can guarantee you that you'll land zero destro heavies as a sorc to someone using this addon - it makes even trying to utilize the heavy attack game mechanic useless (same as anything with a cast time).

I never said they were vaible for 1v1 encounters (though they are on NB somewhat).

No, they aren't. Not vs anyone using addons like these.
Not on Live, not on PTS.

And they never will be as long as the API functions as it does.

ZOS can keep wasting their development time trying to make Crystal Blast a thing, they can waste time buffing other cast time abilities and trying to make them work. They never will, unless they address this issue.

Derra wrote: »

Casttime skills areZerg and Xv1 abilities - and they´re doing relatively well at that - with snipe being the best out of any casttime abilities because it can be cast from a range where it´s impossible to interrupt.

It's not though - you can get infinitely better results as a Dark Flare->Javelin gankplar than you can with Snipe. Snipe has no real follow-up damage as it's the only skill with 40m+ range - all you can do is spam the same dodgeable skill with around 2.5s travel time at 40m+, which leaves you with 3,6 seconds to dodge it (1.1s cast time *audio cue* 2.5s travel time).

Oh, and you can't build up any Hawk Eye stacks to deal any real damage with that Snipe, because light/heavy attacks don't have that 40m range.

Dark Flare+Jav build on the other hand has significantly faster travel time & can CC you before the thing lands, while also having good follow-up in jbeam and ability to defend itself with dmg shields/heals/sweeps.

Derra wrote: »

I know that i´m affected negatively by this addon aswell. Matrixevade CF is a thing.

But then destro heavyattack also has a more clearcut soundcue than snipe that also gets played immediately when the projectile is fired (not shortly before it lands).

Snipe audio cue also gets played immediately after the projectile is fired, you can hear this (I hope, I was playing with low volume) on the videos I recorded.

Derra wrote: »

Why can i dodge every magica casttime projectile with a soundcue but snipe not? Maybe my ears are just really bad and i can´t hear it. Who knows.

Point is - half of the time i´m either unable to hear the snipe sound or it does not play. Since i can´t tell which reason it is but i can hear any other projectile soundcue i tend to lean towards snipe being bugged.

That sounds like a personal problem, I haven't had a problem with hearing/seeing Snipe since the game was released.

Try lowering music volume & increasing effects volume - a good trick to utilize for all MMOs & FPS games.


This addon doesn't just give you that cue you're missing in game, it adds a whole 1s+ long "heads up" in the form of opponent's cast bar before that cue was ever supposed to happen.


It's like instead of swatting a fly on a wall, you shoot it with a bazooka. Sure, you just fixed your "problem", but also created a much bigger one.

Derra wrote: »

As long as that´s the case i rather have people evade every frags and heavyattack of me than dying to people that find it fun to sit in stealth for 15 minutes waiting to shoot an arrow in your knee while you´re fighting 3 other guys.
It´s really that simple.

I find dying to stealthganking snipers so unfun that i rather have my own gameplay impaired tremendously than let those people have an enjoyable playing experience.

I hope you realize how toxic that sounds.

You know how I may find undodgeable bs like Soul Assault unfun as a medium armor user, but I wouldn't ever approve of an addon that essentially removes them from the game one way or another.

Derra wrote: »

Edit: btw you should probably go play CP to revisit your opinion. I get sniped for 10 to 12k per hit on my heavyarmor NB by the right players - in your video you mostly have ppl that snipe for ~3k? How is that even possible.

I don't get sniped at all, because I use this addon. Ever.

Nor does anyone else using it, you should download it if you have problems with cast time abilities.

Besides, 10-12k? That's like what, 50% of a normal health bar (or one dmg shield, except that 10-12k becomes more like 7-8 since it can't crit on them)? With zero follow-up burst available from 40m+, I don't see how that's a problem.

I'd much rather take that Snipe than a Cloak->DW Heavy+SA+Incap+Selene, which with my current build can take your sorc from 100% health+shields to zero in an instant before you can even CC break.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

I hope you realize how toxic that sounds.

You know how I may find undodgeable bs like Soul Assault unfun as a medium armor user, but I wouldn't ever approve of an addon that essentially removes them from the game one way or another.

It sounds as toxic as the playstyle is.

I try to avoid mechanics that seriously impair functionality or the ability to have fun for my opponent.
Which means i don´t use harness, darkdeal, line of sight (if not outnumbered), soulassault or soultrap to decloak.

If however a playstyle solely revolves around minimizing the opponents chance to fight back (ideally reducing it to 0) - thus effectively aims at not allowing your victim to have fun / an enjoyable pvp encounter - i don´t give a flying snip.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't get sniped at all, because I use this addon. Ever.

Nor does anyone else using it, you should download it if you have problems with cast time abilities.

Besides, 10-12k? That's like what, 50% of a normal health bar (or one dmg shield, except that 10-12k becomes more like 7-8 since it can't crit on them)? With zero follow-up burst available from 40m+, I don't see how that's a problem.

I'd much rather take that Snipe than a Cloak->DW Heavy+SA+Incap+Selene, which with my current build can take your sorc from 100% health+shields to zero in an instant before you can even CC break.

I use this addon and i can assure you i get sniped plenty - because i can neither dodge nor block every snipe that´s coming for me - because that would literally get me killed in a couple of seconds as the first fear would be unbreakable due to no stamina left.

DDuke wrote: »

That sounds like a personal problem, I haven't had a problem with hearing/seeing Snipe since the game was released.

Try lowering music volume & increasing effects volume - a good trick to utilize for all MMOs & FPS games.


This addon doesn't just give you that cue you're missing in game, it adds a whole 1s+ long "heads up" in the form of opponent's cast bar before that cue was ever supposed to happen.

As i said i can hear every darkflare or destro heavyattack just fine. Which leads me to believe there might be an issue with snipe as i mostly can´t hear those (and i´m not alone with that issue).
Might be a sound priorisation problem (darkflare + heavyattack overlays everything else - snipe does not).

Rianai

DDuke wrote: »

Really? Most of the time I spend in PvP I spend in Sotha Sil (cba to swap between PvE & PvP CP allocations) & BGs. I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I saw anyone using Snipe, it's been so long.

Are we playing the same game? Sotha (EU) is full of snipers. Hiding in stealth and behind their friends to only attack players that are busy fighting someone else ...
Are those snipers a problem? Not more than any other of those zerglings - if the ingame audio and visual cues would work properly. But they don't. From my experience snipe is one of the most bugged skills in this game. I don't know what exactly causes the issues and if can be and is abused intentionally or not, but fact is, that i (and not only i) have to deal with delayed cues or completely invisible and unhearable snipes almost every day in Cyrodiil. Sometimes it even result in health desync, and causes instant death to what appers to be multile snipes at once (which it wasn't of course).
Maybe you aren't aware of those issues, because you are relying on Miat's addon anyway (i assume it also registeres those bugged snipes, as combat log addons do). I'm not using this addon though, because i still think, that it should not be the task of players to "fix" such servere bugs and addons in general should not have such a big impact on the gameplay for everyone. So even though i don't like nor use Miat's addon, i can understand those people who do, because in its current state, the game does not always provide sufficient information about what's going on during combat.

Jade1986

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

You are certainly entitled to your views, however wrong they might be.

It's sad you decided to get rid of any rationality in your posts here.

Blaming the guy with different views that he's biased and wrong always was the most accessible cope out when you can't have an upper hand otherwise.

Let me be the stupid biased guy here then:)

Dorrino wrote: »

Snipe never was easy to land on a decent player - your addon only made it impossible rather than "difficult".

It always was really easy to land a snipe on anybody because it's a spammable from Africa. If the first 4 snipes miss you'll just keep sniping. Given the damage the point never was to land a particular snipe. You just keep spamming.

Actually you are biased and wrong. Because your addon and opinion disregards a large portion of the player bases opinion. We are advocating for the respect of all playstyles, you are not.

I agree

Expect bias and illogical responses advocating respect

Dorrino wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Actually you are biased and wrong. Because your addon and opinion disregards a large portion of the player bases opinion. We are advocating for the respect of all playstyles, you are not.

Would you propose me to share your opinion here and disregard another one that is 'shared by a large portion of playerbase'?:)

What exactly makes your opinion more preferable, besides that it's yours?

Most recent polls show that the mass majority are against addons like this, and consider them cheating because there are no counters to it. I am fighting for all BUILT IN playstyles to be viable, even if some are annoying to others. Your add on completely *** all over anyone that plays a ranged playstyle because people that use it refuse to use in game counters to stealth and ranged playstyles. You on the other hand clearly do not care about the rogue, assassin, ranged playerbase, and only care about melee players.

Aedaryl

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I hope you realize how toxic that sounds.

You know how I may find undodgeable bs like Soul Assault unfun as a medium armor user, but I wouldn't ever approve of an addon that essentially removes them from the game one way or another.

It sounds as toxic as the playstyle is.

I try to avoid mechanics that seriously impair functionality or the ability to have fun for my opponent.
Which means i don´t use harness, darkdeal, line of sight (if not outnumbered), soulassault or soultrap to decloak.

If however a playstyle solely revolves around minimizing the opponents chance to fight back (ideally reducing it to 0) - thus effectively aims at not allowing your victim to have fun / an enjoyable pvp encounter - i don´t give a flying snip.

DDuke wrote: »

I don't get sniped at all, because I use this addon. Ever.

Nor does anyone else using it, you should download it if you have problems with cast time abilities.

Besides, 10-12k? That's like what, 50% of a normal health bar (or one dmg shield, except that 10-12k becomes more like 7-8 since it can't crit on them)? With zero follow-up burst available from 40m+, I don't see how that's a problem.

I'd much rather take that Snipe than a Cloak->DW Heavy+SA+Incap+Selene, which with my current build can take your sorc from 100% health+shields to zero in an instant before you can even CC break.

I use this addon and i can assure you i get sniped plenty - because i can neither dodge nor block every snipe that´s coming for me - because that would literally get me killed in a couple of seconds as the first fear would be unbreakable due to no stamina left.

DDuke wrote: »

That sounds like a personal problem, I haven't had a problem with hearing/seeing Snipe since the game was released.

Try lowering music volume & increasing effects volume - a good trick to utilize for all MMOs & FPS games.


This addon doesn't just give you that cue you're missing in game, it adds a whole 1s+ long "heads up" in the form of opponent's cast bar before that cue was ever supposed to happen.

As i said i can hear every darkflare or destro heavyattack just fine. Which leads me to believe there might be an issue with snipe as i mostly can´t hear those (and i´m not alone with that issue).
Might be a sound priorisation problem (darkflare + heavyattack overlays everything else - snipe does not).

I've the same problem with snipe, when a noob try to gank me alone, I can hear it, but in larger fight, no way.

Also, snipe is not weaker than magplar gankplay, there is just 1 gankplar per campaing, while there is tons of snipe users.

DDuke

Then where are the bug report threads, threads of people complaining about Snipe?

People on consoles don't have access to this addon (or any other addon) and seem to be having no problems with snipe.


It sounds to me that people are just coming up with excuses for cheats that are beneficial for them to exist.

Jade1986

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.


This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):

https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE

An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.

It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).


Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.

That video just infuriated me.....

The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.

The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.

Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

laced wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

I hoped I'd never have to make this thread, but patch after patch these API functions still exist.


This is what addons can do currently (comparison between no addon & addon):

https://youtu.be/zaB-sXFKHdE

An addon should not be able to show opponent's cast timer to you - that makes it impossible to land any cast time ability on target using these kinds of addons and it provides a clear advantage to the player using the addon.

It's not just Snipe (as shown in the video) that suffers from addons like these, but also all other cast/channeled abilities (including heavy attacks).


Enough is enough - remove these API functions ZOS.

That video just infuriated me.....

The majority of people clearly hate this add on, and all add ons resembeling it, why ZoS literally is sitting on their hands right now with this is beyond confusing. If they cracked down on this it would send a clear signal that this stuff, as was stated when the game first came out, would not, and should not be tolerated. Now that we are here though, they backtracked and dont do anything? Honestly if I had enough money, I would try to officially do something about it.

The only people that hate it are those that love "surprise! you're nearly dead!" ambushes.
I'm sorry, but I prefer a fair fight so I don't really care if somebody uses this addon.

Also, the functions of this addon are in the default UI as a function of "active combat tips" setting. The default UI will tell you when you should block or interrupt or break free based on enemy skill use, in pve and pvp.

Oh no! We wouldnt want rogue characters in a fantasy video game! Horrors. And you saying you prefer a fair fight is laughable, because you are bypassing in game mechanics with an uncounterable add on. You can use detect pots, mage light, flare, etc to find stealth people, there are counters, there is no counter to miats.

Well sadly, there have to be some sacrifices for pvp to exist in this game.

FYI, I played City of Heroes where enough people enjoyed pvp and even I pvped. And guess what? It had perma-stealth that was completely overpowered compared to the paltry imitation stealth you get in this game. In fact, every character could get such stealth because it was given by multiple abilities as a magnitude on each that could stack and none was class limited.
City of Heroes was a perfect example of "when everyone is super, no one will be" because everyone had access to everything and it was fun even at that.

They've "chosen the path of blood"(Code Geass) and pain with their design of the game and pvp where certain classes are too unique for arbitrary reasons. Stealth will inevitably likely have to die for balance in the system they have chosen, sadly.
I like stealth too, but I know its time is limited.

Stealth will not die, lol, if you think that you are delusional. Nightblades are a hallmark of TES universe. They are built into the game, and add ons that circumvent certain classes and builds with no counter are cheats by definition.

Jade1986

Dorrino wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

It is cheating though, you are abusing the API to avoid a gameplay mechanic (no one is saying its good) that the developers decided to put in the game.

You can't 'abuse' API. It provides what it provides. It can and was shown that having a feature in API is identical with having it in the interface itself. That's why it even is in API, so default interface could use it.

Nifty2g wrote: »

You even have a timer telling you when you need to dodge. With the current system how it is, that is not even considered fair lol, you have an advantage over someone when you shouldn't cause you are abusing the API.

See above and it seems people have peculiar usage of the word 'fair'. In my mind 'fair' is something that is available to everybody. Free of charge. At any time.

As opposed to 'unfair' or 'cheating' that is sometime that available to a limited group of people.

In your use-case literally any addon is not fair because it changes the way the person perceives the game. To the benefit of that person.

In my definition any addon is fair, because anybody can use it.

Nifty2g wrote: »

And also what Dymence just said. Why is the API still the way it is and why is the gameplay still the way it is. Company needs to get it together already, this topic has been going on for ages with hundreds of threads. But hey, if they're totally fine with players that are going to abuse the API and cheat and allow it instead of changing their *** around, good for them.

Because they are not keeping up.

That's why they don't make statements regarding addons unless really pressed.

You are the type of person that goes into a conversation about murder and says evil is subjective. That just speaks bounds for your personality.

Feanor

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Agree totally.

Edit: Basing counterplay on audio or subtle visual cues is just bad design. Therefore I appreciate Miat's addon although I don't use the notifications.

Jade1986

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Mystrius_Archaion wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This is unfortunate that you consider cheating higher awareness and not stealth ganks. That's on you though.

It is cheating though, you are abusing the API to avoid a gameplay mechanic (no one is saying its good) that the developers decided to put in the game. You even have a timer telling you when you need to dodge. With the current system how it is, that is not even considered fair lol, you have an advantage over someone when you shouldn't cause you are abusing the API.

Now before you decide to get all mad, I agree with you that stealth is absurdly stupid in the game, but as mentioned in the OP this affects all channeled abilities, you can use it in other ways that can provide unfair advantages which equals to cheating.

ZOS needs to change around the API and ZOS also needs to address crappy gameplay mechanics. It's kinda gone on for too long.

Hell, they actually banned something like being able to see someones DPS (GOD FORBID) but allow you to see to the second when someone is casting an ability.

Well, the reason for the hiding dps numbers is it also causes a lot more stress on the servers adding to lag, and it also is far too easily used to discriminate people who may be contributing in other ways, like the tank or healer or off-tank.

Social issues vs. eliminating an entire part of gameplay

I'm just posting possible reasons. Somebody can probably dig up a post with the public reason they posted.

As far as the addon showing the cast bar or an audio indicator when they are casting, they can't remove that capability without killing the whole active combat system of dodge and block for pve and pvp. Dodge and block need to be triggered before a skill goes off and not everyone has a computer that can show every graphic on the enemy well enough to be seen and reacted to, which is why we have active combat tips as a UI option and this "problem" some of you are complaining about.

And besides the argument over design intent, I see it as either negligible impact with all the people avoiding cast time abilities already for pvp or a good thing to get rid of those cast time stealth gankers that nobody likes fighting against. The only supporters of that play style are ones who actually like it and are trying to hide the fact that it is imbalanced.

Guess what? I like to stealth gank if I can too, but I won't lie and say that "it's balanced and fair" when it is most definitely not in this type of pvp. The controls of this game do not support gameplay where stealth is an option.

Actually this game is their property, they could actively take action against all add ons created like this. But they seem to be lazy-

Jade1986

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

With your addon it's not only 4 snipes that will miss, you can cast 40 and they'll all miss.


Same goes for that sorc hardcasting frags, or Templar with Dark Flare slotted - or that poor magicka NB just trying to get his resources back with a inferno heavy attack. They'll. All. Miss.

@DDuke have you ever played a build that was not stamina based (aka being able to rolldodge more than three times without putting yourself in danger of cc=>ded) and did not cloak in cyrodiil?

Because the way you´re arguing makes it sound a lot like you´ve never played a build that is atleast susceptible to being sniped.

I´m getting sniped from an enemy i can´t see probably 50 to 70% of all fights i have in cyro.
If those were able to land the ability reliably the pvp would be even more zergy than it already is.
If sniping is really as bad as you´re making it out to be - why does everybody and their mother have a snipe build?

Heaven forbid you use a damage shield, I have magicka characters too, and guess what, annulment, done.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?


Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.


Oh, and I don't go to "outpost defenses", wtf am I supposed to do there as a melee stamblade? You can't teleport inside keeps anymore.

SodanTok

Damn, some people do olympic level gymnastics to explain why getting unfair advantage over others is fine because they are getting Xv1 or ganked.

Welcome to the game. If 3 years weren't enough for you to get used to it. Leave.

I am sure all of you pretend the warnings aren't there when you are in part of zerg or someone is fighting you 1v1, 2v2, 4v4, ...

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?


Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.

Judging from people dodging procced fragments even in melee due to this addon - i don´t think the 1s casttime animation makes a difference except if you´re fighting the juciest potatoes.

Jade1986

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Agree totally.

Edit: Basing counterplay on audio or subtle visual cues is just bad design. Therefore I appreciate Miat's addon although I don't use the notifications.

Snipers....on a SNIPING perch? Oh woe is me! What shall a melee player ever do? Perhaps? Block? Perhaps a healer could heal people? Perhaps magicka users should use their ranged attacks to fight back? Perhaps people could use self heals and damage shields? Just lol.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?


Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.

Judging from people dodging procced fragments even in melee due to this addon - i don´t think the 1s casttime animation makes a difference except if you´re fighting the juciest potatoes.

Did you even watch the video I posted on the very first post of this thread? It makes an enormous difference.

You still have a chance to land a cast time ability from 15-20m distance against decent players - with this addon that chance disappears. Watch the video.

Feanor

@DDuke

No, stealth still has too many advantages would be my line of reasoning. And yes, I know the bonus damage from stealth got ditched with Morrowind. Still. In the end it's not really important though. The answer to the feeling of having no chance of fighting back has always been zerg up and tank up, which is why Cyrodiil is what it is. I'd rather have people use an addon and roam around in groups less than 50+ if it makes them feel less vulnerable.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

No, stealth still has too many advantages would be my line of reasoning. And yes, I know the bonus damage from stealth got ditched with Morrowind. Still. In the end it's not really important though. The answer to the feeling of having no chance of fighting back has always been zerg up and tank up, which is why Cyrodiil is what it is. I'd rather have people use an addon and roam around in groups less than 50+ if it makes them feel less vulnerable.

There's always been a chance to fight back/evade the entire gank (in case of snipe atleast). If you can't hear/see the cues due to some bug, the answer isn't to show the whole freaking cast timer - it's to provide that cue via the addon (or better yet, having ZOS fix the supposed bug which I'm still not convinced even exists).

Players have survived ganks just fine since 2014 by relying on these cues, even back when bow could deal literally 3x the burst damage it does these days.

If neither of these is possible, there's always the option of building your character to survive gankers and reacting faster with CC break & dodge roll.


If you need 50+ to "not feel vulnerable", then you really suck at this game.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

As I have done my time in the penalty box and allowed to post again...

@DDuke

You are on Sotha Sil EU and don't encounter anyone sniping? Just go to any outpost defense. There you have at least 10 people perched on the crest sniping away happily. I also experience many players sniping from the middle of the 50+ EP Zerg. I'll concede that a player using snipe won't get another player down with just snipe if the victim is not afk and not engaged elsewhere. It's still very common that you get sniped from somewhere when you already fight others. Of course any other ability with 41m range would kill you too probably, but I think it's a psychological thing. I dislike gankers with a passion, probably coming from how stupid stealth play in this game is (and as you said, the Incap + SA + Executioner from stealth is even worse). The feeling of having had no chance of fighting back is what makes this so infuriating.

@Derra

Exactly. Ageee totally.

"Snipe is annoying" - is that the justification for showing cast bars for all cast time abilities (even for stealthed players) 1s+ prior to the moment any visual/sound cue would normally appear?


Look, I can understand if some vital cues are missing and people need an addon to fix that. That's fine. But read the bolded part and you might see what the real problem is.

Judging from people dodging procced fragments even in melee due to this addon - i don´t think the 1s casttime animation makes a difference except if you´re fighting the juciest potatoes.

Did you even watch the video I posted on the very first post of this thread? It makes an enormous difference.

You still have a chance to land a cast time ability from 15-20m distance against decent players - with this addon that chance disappears. Watch the video.

Well you don´t with magica HA, darkflare or fragments - which is why i think there´s an issue with snipe

Feanor

@DDuke

Yet that's what Cyrodiil looks like in Sotha Sil EU. Running with 50+ just has no downside. As for the cast timer, people were complaining about the addon when it just showed a plain text notification. You know what the opposite of the Miat's user is? The one that enjoyed his three proc sets and one shots from stealth. There is a reason people like the Archer/rogue archetype so much. They want easy kills while never ever being at risk themselves.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

(or better yet, having ZOS fix the supposed bug which I'm still not convinced even exists).

You realize you´re the only one in this topic saying the snipe souncdcue is fine for you aren´t you?
There are atleast 10 different people that say snipe sound does not work reliably for them.

Everyone has something going on with their ears. That´s why it´s only snipe for most ppl