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PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Transmutation

  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    please do not lower tranmutation crystals requirement ot else it would be much easier to change weapon/armor trait.

    Why don't you like easier?
    You can ignore it if you don't want to change weapon traits, but I can't see how lowering it would not benefit you?

    Do you really mean you just don't want others to do it?
  • InvitationNotFound
    InvitationNotFound
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    @Bel_Shezzar @ZOS_GinaBruno

    Could you please provide more information regarding:
    - Crystal drop rate (both, PvE and PvP)
    - Crafting station price. Is the current price (1250 vouchers) correct?
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  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Let's revisit one of the first discussions of this idea that I know of, back in June: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351117/a-compromise-suggestion-for-itemization-trait-change-tokens

    The initial cost suggestions were:

    For example, appropriate costs for a Trait-Change Stone -- and these are VERY rough estimates -- might be:

    500 writ vouchers.
    50 copies of a token that shows up in every vMA final chest
    50 copies of a token that shows up in the final chest to any of the hardest instances
    100 Undaunted keys
    Some huge number of alliance points.
    100 copies of a token that's a very rare drop from general mobs and a fairly rare drop from world bosses and so on


    Most respondents seemed to think that was reasonable, but perhaps on the high side.

    Based on that discussion, I'd say:
    • 40x a guaranteed vet dungeon drop is OK.
    • 40x an "occasional" vet dungeon drop is not OK.
    • If the costs are going to be anywhere in that range, there should be more ways to earn the tokens than PvE endgame and PvP.

    In particularly, transmutation gems should be available for writ vouchers. Serious crafters should be able to do serious crafting.

    I never saw that discussion. It sounds like something mostly the people wanting another mind-numbing grind would have posted and supported.
    500 writ vouchers is insane. I didn't even have any crafting skill but provisioning maxed out until I had been here a year. That wouldn't be appealing as all provisioning master writs are 1-2 writ vouchers.

    Why do some people insist on it taking everyone casual years to get anything and anyone in the middle months?
    By that time everyone moves on to other content and grouping becomes insanely hard to do for what you want to do.

    "Ideal" weapons today have perceived value in the 100s of K of gold on PC NA, and occasionally over 1 million. Writ vouchers are valued at maybe 1.3K each (please don't flame me if it's really 1.2K or 1.4K). Hence the suggestion of a price in the 100s of writ vouchers.

    When I suggested 500, the drop rate for master writs felt higher to me than it does now. 150-250 might now be more reasonable.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Feanor wrote: »
    If it is a guaranteed drop per dungeon 40 is quite ok. Some of the vet dungeons can be done in 10 or 15 minutes.
    Think the 1 each dungeon is for random dungeons, probably pledges too, not just farming vCoA1 if they drop I guess they are rarer. Problem with random dungeon is that its random, you can get vIcP.
    Pugging is worse as you can get vIcP with both healer and tank have bow on both bars.

    Now an downside with the pledge and random dungeon is that veteran pugging will be far harder, lots of the players who should stayed in the normal dungeons will start running veteran ones.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • Cage_Lizardman
    Cage_Lizardman
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    I really hope there will be a higher chance of getting them from the longer dungeons than the shorter ones. And an even higher from the dungeons that are barely puggable at all.
  • Marabornwingrion
    Marabornwingrion
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    altemriel wrote: »
    And also the crystals should be obtainable for PVPers too, either for Telvar Stones or for Rewards of the Worthy!!

    no need to "force" them to play PVE if they do not like it

    @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert

    Do you even read before posting...? :confused:
  • Insandros
    Insandros
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    eso_nya wrote: »
    Were you able to easily find the Transmutation Station?
    - Yes. The one in CWC aswell as the one on Rolis.

    Did you successfully obtain the new currency, Transmutation Crystals?
    - No. Didnt try yet, also was at 199/200 on template char.

    Was the interface easy to understand when transmutating a piece of equipment?
    - Yes.

    Was it clear that you needed to have your target trait researched?
    - Yes. But i knew that already, and would have assumed it.

    Did you purchase a Transmutation Station from the Master Writ Merchant to put in your home?
    - No. My "NA"-chars seem to be homeless ;)

    Was it clear when an item had been successfully transmutated?
    - Yes.

    Do you have any other general feedback?

    - The currency cap feels to low, compared on how much a transmuttion costs (max 5 itmes in a row).

    - The Station from Rolis feels far to expensive, judged by "how much time will it save me to travel to my home instead of to cwc" and "how long will it take me to get 1250 vouchers".

    - The price for transmuting and the currency feel...wrong and exploitable. It feels to easy to transmute a bunch of trash-items to nirnhoned to sell for research. Edit: stuff gets bound on transmute, so that wont work. Otoh, it costs 40/200 per transmutation, not being able to transmute a full gearset in a row, doesnt feel right either. Also, with a cap inplace, it feels like u have to transmute items every once in a while, so u dont waste stones, even if u dont need to.

    Awesome feedbacks, thanks for posting it.

    But one comment on all this, as for the numbers of cap crystals, it doesn't bother me at all, i'll never had to transmute an entier set, usualy it'S always 1-2 pieces that you can't get proper trait, specialy weapons or undaunted shoulders and helmet... from since i started playing, only 4 items were a pain to get, Scathing mage devine chest which i never seen, not to mention vMA weapons, but i would say all weapons we get, so in my case, vMA lightning staff, BSW inferno staff, now trying to get Sunderflame 1h axe and daggers (of crouse TFS woud be cool)... so basicly 4 items i had a hard time getting since january, this on 6 toons different roles but, by the time i get the weapons to transmute, there is chances i'll have grabed lots of crystal and transmuted otehr stuff by then... some healing staff as well, but ended up getting it while running dungeons and not even farming.... as for armor, i usualy able to get it fast since armor drops way much more than weapons... of course people who wants to transmute an entire armor set, would be people willing to buy cheat Necropotence for instance in wellfited and make it divine.... but then... you can bet if we could transmute easily all stuff, even wellfited Necropotence prices will rise like hell....
  • SantieClaws
    SantieClaws
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    Khajiit is a little puzzled.

    Why would something so related to crafting yes, with a requirement indeed to have researched the trait, be obtainable in the manner furthest from crafting?

    And then bound too.

    And indeed you would need to craft your little paws off to get enough of the vouchers to buy your very own transmutation station.

    So why not also make them an occasional drop from top tier crafting writs - at about the same rate maybe as glass motif pages maybe?

    Having them drop from dangerous dungeons seems as logical to this one as receiving a monster shaped hat from brewing a batch of Markarth Mead.

    Yours with paws
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  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    @Bel_Shezzar @ZOS_GinaBruno

    - Crafting station price. Is the current price (1250 vouchers) correct?

    On PTS right now its 1250 vouchrs for the station just checked that this morning
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  • Tyrobag
    Tyrobag
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    40 crystals per transmute with a non 100% drop rate? What the heck were you guys thinking? 1 crystal per transmute with a 15% drop rate would have been acceptable. 10 crystals with a 100% drop rate would have been acceptable. 40 crystals with a low drop rate is completely insane. Please, for the love of Seht, fix this.
  • phileunderx2
    phileunderx2
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    Why not have them be an occasional reward for completing a master writ? Right now many of the writs are not worth completing. Having a chance of dropping a crystal makes the not worth the effort writs , worth the effort again.
  • sadownik
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    I dont know why you guys are talking about those crystals dropping from vet dungeons, since they are dropping only from pledges?
  • Docmandu
    Docmandu
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    Xsorus wrote: »
    The reason for the cap is simple, It keeps you doing content. If they didn't have the cap you would just amass a crap ton of them and eventually never both doing content again.

    Maybe that says something about the content... content should be fun with some rewards attached to it.. the moment you feel like you HAVE to grind, it becomes way less fun and eventually people give up.

    It's a fine balance..
  • Mystrius_Archaion
    Mystrius_Archaion
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    Docmandu wrote: »
    Xsorus wrote: »
    The reason for the cap is simple, It keeps you doing content. If they didn't have the cap you would just amass a crap ton of them and eventually never both doing content again.

    Maybe that says something about the content... content should be fun with some rewards attached to it.. the moment you feel like you HAVE to grind, it becomes way less fun and eventually people give up.

    It's a fine balance..

    Yep. I'm already less and less interested in transmutation. I'm probably going to give up before even trying with this rate of drops and amount needed to transmute. If it gets worse on live, as expected, then I definitely won't bother.
  • Mix
    Mix
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    [*] Were you able to easily find the Transmutation Station? Yes:)
    [*] Did you successfully obtain the new currency, Transmutation Crystals? No, the template came with 199/200
    [*] Was the interface easy to understand when transmutating a piece of equipment? Very:)
    [*] Was it clear that you needed to have your target trait researched? Yes
    [*] Did you purchase a Transmutation Station from the Master Writ Merchant to put in your home? Yes! It's activation box is huge though, might want to reduce that some...
    [*] Was it clear when an item had been successfully transmutated? Yes:)
    [*] Do you have any other general feedback? We don't know the drop chance yet from veteran content (and I am unlikely to have groups trying to farm these things on the PTS lol), but 40 crystals per re-trait is a LOT, so I would expect a guaranteed crystal from a veteran dungeon clear. 40 clears and you still don't have the trait you want, you should be able to re-trait something! (At LEAST one crystal, since some people need 5 pieces from a dungeon in the correct trait - hopefully no one is THAT unlucky to get none of the gear-trait combos they need in that many runs though.)

    The 200 cap seems reasonable, but would be nicer to have a higher cap, say 440? That way we only "cap" out when we have enough to re-trait every slot once (and you aren't 'wasting' mats once you are fully geared but still running vet content). That way we would know that whatever the next update would bring we could re-trait every piece of current gear if needed:P


  • BrightOblivion
    BrightOblivion
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    Khajiit is a little puzzled.

    Why would something so related to crafting yes, with a requirement indeed to have researched the trait, be obtainable in the manner furthest from crafting?

    And then bound too.

    And indeed you would need to craft your little paws off to get enough of the vouchers to buy your very own transmutation station.

    So why not also make them an occasional drop from top tier crafting writs - at about the same rate maybe as glass motif pages maybe?

    Having them drop from dangerous dungeons seems as logical to this one as receiving a monster shaped hat from brewing a batch of Markarth Mead.

    Yours with paws
    Santie Claws

    Thanks for the imagery that last paragraph provided. I needed a laugh this morning, and the mental picture of a Velidreth head randomly appearing in a barrel of freshly-brewed mead (and the brewer's almost certain shock and alarm as a result) provided it.

    I do think a slight-ish chance from crafting might be useful. However, it's also intended as a grind supplement, which is why it's dropping in the places the gear people are after drops, albeit less often, with a higher requirement, and a freaking cap that doubles if you're an ESO+ member so they can draw even more people into it.

    @ZOS, thanks for reaffirming my cynicism. It was starting to slip.
  • jcaceresw
    jcaceresw
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    There should be more ways to obtain the crystals than by just doing vet dungeons or trials. Much of the player base will be excluded myself included. I never run vet dungeons, trials and do very little pvp. So to obtain 40 ofthese crystals will not happen.

    I mostly do not find people to do the pledges. Neither I can do trials cause even the guilds I am member do not do them. I PVP a bit and I would like to spend my AP and Tel Vars to get those stones.
  • Tendrielle
    Tendrielle
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    My feedback is more fundamental, like:
    ZOS, if you ever planned to change any stats of armor traits like you did with weapon traits, please do this now on this PTS.
    ....Before we transmute all our armor as we think needs be and than have to change again with that other patch...
  • Lady_Rosabella
    Lady_Rosabella
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    Well I was on the PTS most of the day yesterday and I must say this is absolutely ridiculous. A group of us from our guild ran vet pledges, excited to see how many crystals we would get upon completion of each. We turn in our pledge quest and each of us go quiet on TS..... One freaking crystal!! Are you serious?! And the patch notes states you can "occasionally get them? Lmao!

    I don't know about everyone else, but after the release of Master Writs, I started working my arse off getting all ten of my characters crafting maxed out. Collecting motifs and doing research on all of them, etc. Because we were told that your crafting achievements influence the chances of getting Master Writs. And even though I do writs almost every day on all my characters, 99% of the time I end up with *** 2,5, or 7 voucher Master Writs, if I get any at all on all ten of my toons! Now I see on the PTS that, if I want my own Transmutation station, I need 1250 writ vouchers!!!

    But I guess that gives me time to run vet pledges, trials, or arenas 40 times or more (per patch notes: the crystals are "occasionally received") just to change the trait of ONE of my Master or Malestrom weapons! And I guess it gives me time to run these again 40+ more times to get enough Crystals to change the trait on ONE of the 99 Invigorating or Training Monster Helms from vet pledges or Monster Shoulders I was rewarded with by using my hard-earned keys.

    I've been playing ESO since launch and seen ZOS go from needing one motif to now, having to collect 14 chapters to complete an armor/weapon style motif. I've seen players come and go, with most of the new players now who are only interested in grinding their character to max instead of enjoying the quests and game.

    I use to love doing new zones, following the quest line, etc....but now I am too busy farming for mats, grinding for gear, crafting items for small voucher Master Writs, running vet dungeons over and over to get the monster helm I need, and trying to find everything I can to sell in my guild traders to get enough gold to purchase one of the hundreds of motif chapters, and yet they continue to introduce more styles!

    And now, if I have a few pieces of armor or weapons that I want to change the trait on I have to grind to get the crystals! If I want to add the transmutation station to my other crafting stations in my cavern, I have to spend days or even weeks crafting those little 2,5, or 7 voucher Master Writs that I keep getting over and over or, even worse, buying Master Writs from traders at the current rate (and climbing) of around 1k per voucher. That's 1,250,000 gold for 1250 writ vouchers!!

    When will I ever have time to even explore and do the quest line in Vvardefell when I'm grinding my arse off!?
  • code65536
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    I really want to know what the twisted logic is behind the 200 cap. These stones are not even tradeable, so why bother capping it?

    The design of this system is downright player-hostile. But I guess in light of the recent patches, this really shouldn't surprise me.
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  • Sir_Xalvador
    Sir_Xalvador
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    Well I was on the PTS most of the day yesterday and I must say this is absolutely ridiculous. A group of us from our guild ran vet pledges, excited to see how many crystals we would get upon completion of each. We turn in our pledge quest and each of us go quiet on TS..... One freaking crystal!! Are you serious?! And the patch notes states you can "occasionally get them? Lmao!

    I don't know about everyone else, but after the release of Master Writs, I started working my arse off getting all ten of my characters crafting maxed out. Collecting motifs and doing research on all of them, etc. Because we were told that your crafting achievements influence the chances of getting Master Writs. And even though I do writs almost every day on all my characters, 99% of the time I end up with *** 2,5, or 7 voucher Master Writs, if I get any at all on all ten of my toons! Now I see on the PTS that, if I want my own Transmutation station, I need 1250 writ vouchers!!!

    But I guess that gives me time to run vet pledges, trials, or arenas 40 times or more (per patch notes: the crystals are "occasionally received") just to change the trait of ONE of my Master or Malestrom weapons! And I guess it gives me time to run these again 40+ more times to get enough Crystals to change the trait on ONE of the 99 Invigorating or Training Monster Helms from vet pledges or Monster Shoulders I was rewarded with by using my hard-earned keys.

    I've been playing ESO since launch and seen ZOS go from needing one motif to now, having to collect 14 chapters to complete an armor/weapon style motif. I've seen players come and go, with most of the new players now who are only interested in grinding their character to max instead of enjoying the quests and game.

    I use to love doing new zones, following the quest line, etc....but now I am too busy farming for mats, grinding for gear, crafting items for small voucher Master Writs, running vet dungeons over and over to get the monster helm I need, and trying to find everything I can to sell in my guild traders to get enough gold to purchase one of the hundreds of motif chapters, and yet they continue to introduce more styles!

    And now, if I have a few pieces of armor or weapons that I want to change the trait on I have to grind to get the crystals! If I want to add the transmutation station to my other crafting stations in my cavern, I have to spend days or even weeks crafting those little 2,5, or 7 voucher Master Writs that I keep getting over and over or, even worse, buying Master Writs from traders at the current rate (and climbing) of around 1k per voucher. That's 1,250,000 gold for 1250 writ vouchers!!

    When will I ever have time to even explore and do the quest line in Vvardefell when I'm grinding my arse off!?

    I agree with this completely the amount of crystals it takes to change one weapon or one armor is insane need to lower it a lot like 5 crystals at the most and the price of the transmutation station should be lowered that's a crazy price as well
    Zos has always said and even changed zones etc... so the game wouldn't be a grind fest well in my opinion this new stuff to get will be just that.
    And also I have know good people that came into the game they are not interested in questing any more they want to get to cp 160 get the gear they want and then never come back to the game I don't think this crazy amount of crystals or the crazy drop rate of them or the price of the station will win them back and one last thing with all these new motifs I don't know of many people that get the motif and say cool I am making 4 new sets of armor I want to grind to get 14 chapters most people make a set then just wear a costume...

    ESO please fix this craziness
  • Cage_Lizardman
    Cage_Lizardman
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    I have several weapons I would want to use this on, but if it requires the same horrible grind as the weapons themselves I probably wouldn't bother and stick with less than perfect traits, or use other sets.

    Even if I got 40 of those through normal play, they would just end up sitting there since I wouldn't be able to decide which of my sets to use them on... until I reached the cap, so it would probably take months before I even use this at all.
  • OdinForge
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    I could almost get behind the cap if you simply got more stones for doing content. They don't want you to horde so many stones that you simply have BIS traits for everything you pickup instantly. But they should either increase ways to gain stones, or increase the amount of stones you get for doing content.

    As the system is currently implemented on PTS you simply will never have enough stones to even really take advantage of the system. You have 7 armor slots and 4 weapon slots, and even one toon could have multiple builds with different gear.

    But if you have many alts that are actively played, the current system is simply not good enough. I guess we should be grateful they're even letting us change traits, I was just hoping for a better design. I can't see myself taking advantage of the transmutation system very often at all, maybe once in a blue moon on gear like Asylum.



    Edited by OdinForge on September 19, 2017 3:29PM
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  • xSkullfox
    xSkullfox
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    There should be more ways to obtain the crystals than by just doing vet dungeons or trials. Much of the player base will be excluded myself included. I never run vet dungeons, trials and do very little pvp. So to obtain 40 ofthese crystals will not happen.

    Then you dont need the perfect trait weapons if you dont do veteran content.
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  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.

    As for the current drop rates (which are subject to change since we're on the PTS), you're guaranteed to receive Crystal(s) from the following sources:
    • Veteran Undaunted Pledge
    • Your first completed random Veteran dungeon through the Grouping Tool per day
    • Trial Weekly Quests
    • Leaderboards (AvA, Trials, Arenas, and Battlegrounds)
    • End of Campaign Rewards (both 7-day and 30-day)
    • Veteran Maelstrom Arena
    • Veteran Dragonstar Arena

    Additionally, you also have a chance at obtaining Crystals from these sources:
    • Completing additional random Veteran dungeons through the Grouping Tool
    • Final bosses from Normal and Veteran dungeons
    • Rewards for the Worthy

    Hope this helps clarify how this system works. Again, remember that we've only been on the PTS with this system for less than 24 hours, so we may further tweak everything before it goes live. Thanks for all the feedback thus far, and keep it coming!
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  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    The Transmute Crystal is an account-wide currency, and can be used by any character on your account. If your crafting character is not the same as the one with a piece of equipment you wish to transmute, you can transfer the item to them, change the trait, and pass it back through your bank.

    Does changing the trait lock the item to your account? Say I have a great set but the trait sucks with a trait change it would be worth more can I transmute and sell or does it bind the piece to my account even if not worn?
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  • kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
    kendellking_chaosb14_ESO
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    majulook wrote: »
    1. Transmuting on PTS requires 40 of the transmutation crystals per item you wan to transmute.

    2. The transmutation process make the item bound to you.

    Thank you for the answer.
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  • code65536
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    The Transmute Crystal is an account-wide currency, and can be used by any character on your account. If your crafting character is not the same as the one with a piece of equipment you wish to transmute, you can transfer the item to them, change the trait, and pass it back through your bank.

    Does changing the trait lock the item to your account? Say I have a great set but the trait sucks with a trait change it would be worth more can I transmute and sell or does it bind the piece to my account even if not worn?

    It binds the item.
    Nightfighters ― PC/NA and PC/EU

    Dungeons and Trials:
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  • driosketch
    driosketch
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    code65536 wrote: »
    I really want to know what the twisted logic is behind the 200 cap. These stones are not even tradeable, so why bother capping it?
    I'm guessing it's there to prevent easy role swapping, I.E. divines > impenetrable and back again. Of course that just seems unnecessarily punishing to the small subset of players who pvp and pve on the same character and are looking to save some bag space.
    Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
    ●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●
  • Turelus
    Turelus
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    Thanks for the update Gina.

    That actually seems like a lot more sources than I thought.
    @Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
    "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."
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