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A compromise suggestion for itemization: Trait-change tokens

FrancisCrawford
FrancisCrawford
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It seems clear that:
  • Players are extremely frustrated with the RNG aspect of dropped-loot traits, especially in the case of weapons (where sharpened is in most cases the only trait somebody wants for DPS).
  • ZoS is reluctant to implement any of the changes that are frequently suggested.

So I'd like to suggest a change that is suggested only infrequently. (In fact, I've never seen the idea mentioned before.) It has the properties:
  • Players would have an easier path to their desired items ...
  • ... but not too easy. Indeed, the ease/difficulty of the path can be tuned however ZoS wants.
  • ZoS has to do no work to change current itemization or loot tables. Instead, they'd need to introduce a small new element to the game.

Further, the mechanics could be tuned to reward (or not) any major category of activity in the game, such as:
  • Endgame (only the particular instances ZoS chooses).
  • Crafting
  • PvP
  • Holiday event participation
  • General random play

The idea is simply to introduce a mechanism to change the trait of an existing item. Basics on that start:
  • I presume this would be an act of crafting, using a special ingredient that I'll call a "Trait Change Stone" (TCS).
  • The cost/difficulty of acquiring that TCS should reflect that of getting what are not the MOST frustrating items to get in the game (e.g. Sharpened Burning Spellweave Inferno Staffs), but rather the "worst" of the rest (e.g. Sharpened Lightning Necropotence Staff, Sharpened Spriggans Dagger).
  • Optionally there could be tokens, 10 or 25 or 50 or 100 of which are needed to acquire one of these Trait-Change Stones.

For example, appropriate costs for a Trait-Change Stone -- and these are VERY rough estimates -- might be:
  • 500 writ vouchers.
  • 50 copies of a token that shows up in every vMA final chest
  • 50 copies of a token that shows up in the final chest to any of the hardest instances
  • 100 Undaunted keys
  • Some huge number of alliance points.
  • 100 copies of a token that's a very rare drop from general mobs and a fairly rare drop from world bosses and so on.

Requirements for a player to make a trait change could also be tuned. Possibilities include but hardly are limited to:
  • Nothing.
  • Know that particular crafting trait.
  • Be a Level 10 crafter.
  • Be a 9-trait crafter.
  • Do a quest to unlock the particular crafting stations where these changes can be made.
  • Have the Hero achievement for one of the three main alliance zones (or Cyrodiil).
  • Kill Molag Bal.

And of course, before you could change the trait on it, you'd need SOME version of the item (e.g. Maelstrom bow) in the first place.
  • wildbear247
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    OP good write-up, and some system like what you recommend would definitely help the RNG burnout that players get from the fun-leeching gear grind we get caught in. So many times playing this game I catch myself thinking "Man I'd rather be doing X content instead of grinding for this set".

    3 years into ESO and thousands (!!??) of related posts on alleviating the RNG madness & still we have only band-aid fixes to the loot system. And to make it worse we get patches like Morrowind, which aside from it's new & cool PvE & PvP content, contains a slew of changes that I haven't seen alot of players asking for.

    More visible focus by ZOS on player concerns is greatly needed for ESO.
    PC NA
    The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)

    MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Re-trait for crafted items not on dropped ones. From a RNG Point of view your idea isn´t bad. But a lot of sellable overland loot would become "worthless" since you can just re-trait any item you get.

    I´m all for "fixing" RNG with some sort of token system, don´t get me worng, but re-traiting dropped/looted gear isn´t the way to go in my opinion. ZOS made it so that you can spend AP for overland boxes. A suggestion would be to take it one step further: To divide the Overland boxes into weapons, jewels and bodyparts (still RNG but at least you can choose if you want body, jewel or weapon/shield of a certain item set).

    Another suggestion would be to add "Overland loot boxes" but for dungeons (So it´s somehow connected to the Undaunted). Each time you kill a boss/last boss/complete a dungeon, you get some tokens or something similiar. Then you can go to an undaunted merchant to buy "lootboxes" (working the same way as my suggestion with overland boxes in cyrodil).

    This would be a better solution in my opinion, easier to get the gear you want, but still timeconsuming enough to play the content (because that´s what RNG makes you do, play the content)
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    Qbiken wrote: »
    Re-trait for crafted items not on dropped ones. From a RNG Point of view your idea isn´t bad. But a lot of sellable overland loot would become "worthless" since you can just re-trait any item you get.

    Not at all. I expect the cost of a trait change to be equivalent to 100,000s of gold. The value of anything cheaper would be unaffected.

    Indeed, this proposal is entirely about dropped gear. Crafted gear doesn't have a trait-scarcity/RNG problem.
  • Cpt_Teemo
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    The cost to change trait should be over the highest cost of the original drops imo, so things won't get devalued
  • wildbear247
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    OP I think another benefit of a trait-change system like you propose is that it could be implemented in a way so that players could focus more on the content they enjoy rather than wading through RNG grinding muck in content they dislike.

    For example you mention being able to buy a token with a lot of AP. So a player still has to to acquire the item they want, but then could return to their favorite content & take solace that in time they can replace their junk trait with something better.
    Qbiken wrote: »
    Re-trait for crafted items not on dropped ones. From a RNG Point of view your idea isn´t bad. But a lot of sellable overland loot would become "worthless" since you can just re-trait any item you get.

    The OP touches on this, but the way to maintain value of ideally traited BoE items is to adjust the difficulty in obtaining trait-change tokens so it doesn't impact the market too much.
    PC NA
    The Ironwood Clan (all DC): Karbal Ironwood (Stamblade, PvP); Galtan Ironwood (Magblade, crafter, PvE, some PvP)

    MY #1 ESO REQUEST: An overhauled way in which ZOS gathers, assesses, responds to, and incorporates player feedback on the current and future state of the game.
  • Enslaved
    Enslaved
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    Only way I would be OK with trait change tokens is that we have different tiers for these.
    For example, to change trait on your Maelstorm weapon, you would need to find another maelstorm weapon with desired trait and extract it from it, destroying that weapon in the process.. Each group dungeon would have its own token that could be used only on gear found within that dungeon. And for overworld dungeons, any set weapon/armor would be fine, as long it is not group dungeon or vMA related. This would still keep grind element in ESO, but it would be reduced from abnormal to acceptable levels.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    The cost to change trait should be over the highest cost of the original drops imo, so things won't get devalued

    It should at least be very high.

    If no dropped BoE weapon ever sold again for more than, say, 600K, would that be a terrible loss to the economy?
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Enslaved wrote: »
    Only way I would be OK with trait change tokens is that we have different tiers for these.
    For example, to change trait on your Maelstorm weapon, you would need to find another maelstorm weapon with desired trait and extract it from it, destroying that weapon in the process.. Each group dungeon would have its own token that could be used only on gear found within that dungeon. And for overworld dungeons, any set weapon/armor would be fine, as long it is not group dungeon or vMA related. This would still keep grind element in ESO, but it would be reduced from abnormal to acceptable levels.

    So nobody can have a sharpened Maelstrom weapon except those who've gotten drops of sharpened Maelstrom weapons?
  • FrancisCrawford
    FrancisCrawford
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    OP I think another benefit of a trait-change system like you propose is that it could be implemented in a way so that players could focus more on the content they enjoy rather than wading through RNG grinding muck in content they dislike.

    For example you mention being able to buy a token with a lot of AP. So a player still has to to acquire the item they want, but then could return to their favorite content & take solace that in time they can replace their junk trait with something better.
    Qbiken wrote: »
    Re-trait for crafted items not on dropped ones. From a RNG Point of view your idea isn´t bad. But a lot of sellable overland loot would become "worthless" since you can just re-trait any item you get.

    The OP touches on this, but the way to maintain value of ideally traited BoE items is to adjust the difficulty in obtaining trait-change tokens so it doesn't impact the market too much.

    Exactly!

    It would still be very difficult to get ideal gear. But:
    • It wouldn't be quite AS difficult.
    • A good chunk of the difficulty could be pushed into any of several kinds of game activities.
  • Dreyloch
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    It seems clear that:
    • Players are extremely frustrated with the RNG aspect of dropped-loot traits, especially in the case of weapons (where sharpened is in most cases the only trait somebody wants for DPS).
    • ZoS is reluctant to implement any of the changes that are frequently suggested.

    So I'd like to suggest a change that is suggested only infrequently. (In fact, I've never seen the idea mentioned before.) It has the properties:
    • Players would have an easier path to their desired items ...
    • ... but not too easy. Indeed, the ease/difficulty of the path can be tuned however ZoS wants.
    • ZoS has to do no work to change current itemization or loot tables. Instead, they'd need to introduce a small new element to the game.

    Further, the mechanics could be tuned to reward (or not) any major category of activity in the game, such as:
    • Endgame (only the particular instances ZoS chooses).
    • Crafting
    • PvP
    • Holiday event participation
    • General random play

    The idea is simply to introduce a mechanism to change the trait of an existing item. Basics on that start:
    • I presume this would be an act of crafting, using a special ingredient that I'll call a "Trait Change Stone" (TCS).
    • The cost/difficulty of acquiring that TCS should reflect that of getting what are not the MOST frustrating items to get in the game (e.g. Sharpened Burning Spellweave Inferno Staffs), but rather the "worst" of the rest (e.g. Sharpened Lightning Necropotence Staff, Sharpened Spriggans Dagger).
    • Optionally there could be tokens, 10 or 25 or 50 or 100 of which are needed to acquire one of these Trait-Change Stones.

    For example, appropriate costs for a Trait-Change Stone -- and these are VERY rough estimates -- might be:
    • 500 writ vouchers.
    • 50 copies of a token that shows up in every vMA final chest
    • 50 copies of a token that shows up in the final chest to any of the hardest instances
    • 100 Undaunted keys
    • Some huge number of alliance points.
    • 100 copies of a token that's a very rare drop from general mobs and a fairly rare drop from world bosses and so on.

    Requirements for a player to make a trait change could also be tuned. Possibilities include but hardly are limited to:
    • Nothing.
    • Know that particular crafting trait.
    • Be a Level 10 crafter.
    • Be a 9-trait crafter.
    • Do a quest to unlock the particular crafting stations where these changes can be made.
    • Have the Hero achievement for one of the three main alliance zones (or Cyrodiil).
    • Kill Molag Bal.

    And of course, before you could change the trait on it, you'd need SOME version of the item (e.g. Maelstrom bow) in the first place.

    Nope, don't like any of this. I would prefer any and all armor and weapons be dropped with no traits at all. Then we are allowed to apply what we want to them. I leveled all the crafting abilities to 9 a long time ago. As it is, helms and shoulders aren't even worth making these days, because of monster sets. Even though many of them look fantastic.

    The last thing I wanna see is ZoS make this into a crown store item. Nope, they do that, and I'm done with the game. Uninstall/delete, /goodbye. It HAS to be something more thought out or revamped. ZoS will Have to do some work.

    So before someone counter argue's about not having learned traits for items? The crafting system needs a leveling mechanic to replace what we have. Having to wait a month to get something learned is really dumb in any MMO these days. Plus ZoS has now put THAT into the crown store. Vouchers to buy in order to reduce the wait time? It's just another thing that is gonna make people leave the game. Might be minor to some, but all that minor BS adds up after awhile and people just quit.
    "The fear of Death, is often worse than death itself"
  • NewBlacksmurf
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    So you want them to add a required grind on top of an existing grind for tokens

    WHY?

    FYI this has been suggested already. Just ask them to change the existing traits
    Edited by NewBlacksmurf on June 8, 2017 6:46PM
    -PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
    ~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *501
  • FrancisCrawford
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    So you want them to add a required grind on top of an existing grind for tokens

    I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

    My suggestion is that a Powered Inferno staff plus the fruits of other activities can be turned into a Sharpened Inferno staff. That would be a clear improvement on the current state of affairs, AND it would not run afoul of any reason I can imagine for ZoS not yet having implemented alternative solutions to the problem.
  • MurderMostFoul
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    Make trait Gem swapping a skill available to jewelry crafters. Also, implement jewelry crafting.
    “There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Make trait Gem swapping a skill available to jewelry crafters. Also, implement jewelry crafting.

    :)

    Seriously, those are separate matters.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Bumping this because I still think it's a good idea given the impending trait revamp.
  • FrancisCrawford
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    Bumping this because I still think it's a good idea given the impending trait revamp.

    Bumping again to recapture the bit of discussion we've had before, because it seems to be more than a pipe dream now.
  • Morgul667
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    I really wonder what ZOS is going to make of this
  • Mettaricana
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    Umm i prefer it doesnt cost an arm amd a leg to do seriously do we really want more grind to change a friggan trait the whole idea is to grind less not more 100k is bs 500 vouchers is bs 1 trait change shouldnt cost more than the avg value of the most expensive items rather see the price gap brought down rather than raosed because at this point the only people who can change a trit will be the already ridiculously rich or over geared players. You got people who get rare items drops and best traits in few runs and you got alot of players like me who havent gotten a good trait or a tempering alloy since imperial city so nothing to sell no chance at trait roll no chance at bis to do vma its just too much. Just let the system happen let stuff become easier to get and stop trying to turn eso into a korean based nolifer grindfest mmo with 0.00001 chance of getting stuff needed to get better or desired.
  • Pyr0xyrecuprotite
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    FYI, according to another recent post based on the Pax announcement by ZoS, changing item traits will be a thing when the Clockwork City DLC comes out. No details given though, and no information as to whether it would apply to VMA/Maelstrom weapons. Keep an eye out for the official announcement posting on Tuesday, and we will have to wait for it to hit PTS before seeing how it actually works.

    Also, Sharpened was king for DPS, but with the changes in Horns of the Reach update, other traits like Precise and Infused are just as good (possibly also nirnhoned). There are still junk traits for each role, but fewer.
  • Kurkikohtaus
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    One grind replaced with another, with the difference that at the end of the proposed grind, one is guaranteed the result one is looking for.

    I would simplify the process and simply tie trait-changing into crafting, exclusively. Simply combine a pre-set number of gold mats from clothier/blacksmith/woodwork/enchanting and you create a bauble of trait-change. Non-bound, so that it could be sold in guild stores or on the Global Auction House that will be introduced in an upcoming DLC.
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