Harder Main Story Bosses

Iccotak

It’s almost like I am making it work for more than just one type of player.

Almost as if it’s a system that gives challenge for those who want it in their story play-through but also has incentive and appeal for other reasons to different players, rather than cater to one specific play style.

Like I’m trying to make it more...accessible.

But no that couldn’t be it at at all.
I must have some secret agenda to make an activity to farm one purple item really inefficiently.
Oh Wait - just like a dungeon, if you completed the story already you’re not going to get a quest reward for fighting the same boss again. So if you already got the Tharn family ring then you’re not gonna get it again by doing the same encounter.

Like I said many, many, many times there wouldn’t really be any “vet level loot“ to get. The only rewards that would be there to pursue would be achievements - if you really wanted cosmetic items like a title or dye 🤷‍♂️

SilverBride

@Iccotak If you would consider an optional difficulty for the main storyline antagonist, and that you could only fight him one time, as the quest stands now, you would probably gain a lot more support. I know I would find that reasonable.

It's the repeatable part that I find unnecessary and unfair. It would cheapen the antagonist to put him on farm. He had a part to play in the story, he played it, now let him rest.

Seminolegirl1992

That is one thing I can agree on. If I kill the main antagonist he should be dead on that particular character. I personally don't care about it being repeatable (except on different toons of course)...my thing is I want a challenging encounter. If that comes with different achievements and things great. If not, great. I just care about immersion.

Iccotak

SilverBride wrote: »

@Iccotak If you would consider an optional difficulty for the main storyline antagonist, and that you could only fight him one time, as the quest stands now, you would probably gain a lot more support. I know I would find that reasonable.

It's the repeatable part that I find unnecessary and unfair. It would cheapen the antagonist to put him on farm. He had a part to play in the story, he played it, now let him rest.

There are a clear reasons as to why I made it a repeatable activity, and have stated them before but here goes one more time.

1. ZOS doesn't make non-repeatable content hard, this is evident everywhere in the game. There are no exceptions. The only reason ZOS would design the story boss that is closer to its full gameplay potential (and closer to how the story hypes them up) would be if they can get long term engagement from that activity. The kind of engagement you get from repeatable content.

2. This the major one: Making it repeatable with a Veteran mode allows players of various play-styles who beat the boss to go back and experience the epic boss fight on their main toon. Not everyone wants to start a new character just so then they can experience a story and it's climatic boss fight. Take into account that not everyone plays the same way.

3.There is nothing unfair about the system. Many people here, including myself, have addressed your concerns about "Vet Loot" multiple times and either you did not read them or ignored them. There is nothing unfair about getting a cosmetic for doing the content that everyone has access to.

4. I do not think that it cheapens it at all. Major MMOs have repeatable Story Boss Fight because those bosses are the end boss of the expansion. It doesn't make sense for the boss of the year arc, that is unlocked by doing both the chapter and story dlc, to not at least have a difficulty option. Right now they are basically easy solo dungeons.

Seminolegirl1992

That actually makes sense too honestly^ But at this point I just want it to be a little harder. Am the desperate.

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

The great thing about options is that if the bosses were *optionally* repeatable, you would be under no obligation to defeat them a second time if it ruined your own immersion.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

ZOS doesn't make non-repeatable content hard, this is evident everywhere in the game.

I'm not sure where this is evident. Could you give some examples? But regardless of what they have done in the past, what they will consider now may be different. Especially if the request was reasonable and had a lot of support.

Iccotak wrote: »

Making it repeatable with a Veteran mode allows players of various play-styles who beat the boss to go back and experience the epic boss fight on their main toon. Not everyone wants to start a new character just so then they can experience a story and it's climatic boss fight. Take into account that not everyone plays the same way.

What if they made it so you could fight him one time on each difficulty with each of your characters? So characters who fought him on regular difficulty the first time could go back and experience the fight on vet... but only once.

Iccotak wrote: »

There is nothing unfair about the system. Many people here, including myself, have addressed your concerns about "Vet Loot" multiple times and either you did not read them or ignored them. There is nothing unfair about getting a cosmetic for doing the content that everyone has access to.

I know it doesn't seem that way to you, but it does for some others. I don't do vet dungeons and trials because I choose not to. I know they give better rewards, and that I won't get these rewards if I don't do the content. But dungeons and trials are very different from storyline quests. When you defeat the final antagonist of that chapter of the story, it's over. It is not fair to make it repeatable because it will turn it into a farming situation that benefits a few. But If you could only do it once, or once on each difficulty as mentioned above, that would be a lot more fair to all.

Iccotak wrote: »

I do not think that it cheapens it at all. Major MMOs have repeatable Story Boss Fight because those bosses are the end boss of the expansion. It doesn't make sense for the boss of the year arc, that is unlocked by doing both the chapter and story dlc, to not at least have a difficulty option. Right now they are basically easy solo dungeons.

Some major MMO's have repeatable story boss fights because they put their final bosses in raids, WoW specifically. And it's always been that way for their game. But this isn't one of those games. And the storyline antagonists aren't meant to be killed repeatedly in this game. So we can't make a fair comparison between the two.

It's not the difficulty suggestion I find issue with. It's making it repeatable for reasons I already stated.

spartaxoxo

Linaleah wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wanting a certain reward is inherently optional since no one is forced to get that certain reward.

So are video games entirely and the only non-optional things in life are water, food, and medicine.

But within the context of video games, getting the rewards associated with your chosen content is an essential part of the game and thus the fact that the highest difficulty is not optional to getting those rewards is a gameplay issue worthy of consideration.

you really want purple tharn's family ring rather then a blue or another title when your character can ONLY use a single title at a time so badly that you would force yourself to do content you do not enjoy for it? really? maybe you need to reexamine why is it that you feel that degree of compulsion?

Completion is a pretty normal part of many people's video game interests. There's a reason many video games have collectathons and their ilk. It may not be important to you, but it's important to others. Most games cater to that interest nowadays, and purposefully pad content just so people have more things to complete. One of the coolest posts I ever saw was the guy who has every achievement in the game.

It would only be a compulsion if it was detrimental to quality of life. Uninstalling a video game and playing a different one because the game isn't as fun to you anymore is not compulsion

so the game isn't fun to you anymore because you feel compulsion to get a variant of a title or the same ring but in purple? that... is... something for sure.

First of all, I have said many times that this would neither effect me or that I give zero care about something that is purple vs blue. So you can stop trying to make it personal.

Secondly, the problem with changing the way titles and such work is there is ONE system for casuals to enjoy the same ability to complete things as Vets. ONE. So yes, I know people that would quit and they have expressed themselves in the thread. You make it sound like there is a lot of achievement systems for casuals and that poor old vets never get nothing. When the opposite is true. Vets are collection completion rich and have literally every other system in the game. They do not need the only system designed for casuals too.

There are other ways to increase the difficulty of story bosses that don't involve changing the reward structure of Vet. And that you guys insist on these kinds of strawman and personal attacks because I think those are better, does little to convince anyone this is about the story.

Because an undaunted scroll/challenge banner that can be used during the story to make the boss difficult, but the only difference is that the drops are purple instead of blue addresses that problem. Those scrolls do NOT only boost health, you can add entirely different mechanics using them too. So why is it a problem that casuals keep their reward structure and vets get their harder boss? How does a harder boss at the climax not address vets needing a harder boss?

Well there is one difference to that idea. The rewards.

idk

SilverBride wrote: »

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

I think increasing the difficulty of content is a good idea.

The only way they can increase the difficulty of overland content is if they make it so you have to complete the zones in a linear fashion, with each zone becoming more difficult than the previous. But this would stop new players who joined the game for the new expansions and DLCs from even seeing that content for a very long time.

Having the zones scale to the player's level is the better choice, and is what is in place now. I'm not sure if that also takes gear into account, but if it doesn't, it should.

Dungeons and trials, however, could have another tier of difficulty added. This is done in other games and players seem satisfied with it. The one problem I see with that, however, is then there will be even more boredom with the base game by some of those players. But if they scale the zone more to the player, this shouldn't have to be so.

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

All that is needed is more or less a return to how things were 6.5 years ago.

The way things were back then didn't work. This is why it was changed. Going back would be a huge mistake.

The way things worked 6.5 years ago did work and worked well. We had to use our basic skills to deal with mechanics. Zos has nerfed things to the point we just DPS through the fights.

As a result we have ended up with players players with high CP that don’t realize they have an interupt. That’s very sad but I have run into players that don’t know these things because they do not need to use them until in a group.

I did remove them from the group since they could not do what was needed.

What doesn’t work is having all this content designed so players are ignorant of such basic combat skills.

Again, what is suggested in this thread is not the way to do it. Not only is it overly complicated but it does not deal with the real issue I have brought up.

Linaleah

Seminolegirl1992 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Wanting a certain reward is inherently optional since no one is forced to get that certain reward.

So are video games entirely and the only non-optional things in life are water, food, and medicine.

But within the context of video games, getting the rewards associated with your chosen content is an essential part of the game and thus the fact that the highest difficulty is not optional to getting those rewards is a gameplay issue worthy of consideration.

you really want purple tharn's family ring rather then a blue or another title when your character can ONLY use a single title at a time so badly that you would force yourself to do content you do not enjoy for it? really? maybe you need to reexamine why is it that you feel that degree of compulsion?

Completion is a pretty normal part of many people's video game interests. There's a reason many video games have collectathons and their ilk. It may not be important to you, but it's important to others. Most games cater to that interest nowadays, and purposefully pad content just so people have more things to complete. One of the coolest posts I ever saw was the guy who has every achievement in the game.

It would only be a compulsion if it was detrimental to quality of life. Uninstalling a video game and playing a different one because the game isn't as fun to you anymore is not compulsion

so the game isn't fun to you anymore because you feel compulsion to get a variant of a title or the same ring but in purple? that... is... something for sure.

and dude. I collect things. collecting things is important to me. but its not so important that I would rather not let people have something enjoyable for them, because I'm not willing or able to work for it myself. I'm starting to think that I may be too casual even for you self proclaimed casuals.

You are one of the most selfless people in this forum. I respect the heck out of that. The fact you are a casual player that wants everyone to have their immersion speaks volumes of your character

I... appreciate the comment but i'm absolutely not being selfless here. I want this compromise because it can potentially lead to another compromise that would benefit me directly. solo dungeons. repeatable story solo dungeons.

I get the desire to do the story on a specific character, that ONE specific character. I play stories on alts, but I have a main on whom I try to do all things or at least whatever things I can manage to acess. I want that specific character to do ALL the stories. and I already had to make a compromise by respeccing her from a stealthy archer murder child to a healer - just so she could do dungeon stories. (and even then its not ideal because more often then not, I have to pug and so she doesn't get to see the entirety of those stories)

being able to repeat stories, whether they are single player ones or dungeon ones means I can role play my girl through these stories in a way that is most immersive for me without being rushed by others.

I want other to have things that are fun for them, because it tends to make them more receptive to a compromise that allows ME and people like ME to play stories in a way that is most immersive to us. you know? when I say everyone, i do mean everyone. that everyone includes me :P

I do have hard time understanding people for whom replaying a story ruins immersion... that cannot just... NOT replay a story. I mean.. in a single player game - you can reload a save if you didn't like an outcome, or for immersion's sakes... you can just roll with it and go where it leads even if its not what you originally expected or aimed for. just because the option to reload and redo is there, doesn't mean you HAVE to take it.

same with replaying stories in an MMO.

Iccotak

slirm

idk wrote: »

show previous quotes

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I think increasing the difficulty of content is a good idea.

The only way they can increase the difficulty of overland content is if they make it so you have to complete the zones in a linear fashion, with each zone becoming more difficult than the previous. But this would stop new players who joined the game for the new expansions and DLCs from even seeing that content for a very long time.

Having the zones scale to the player's level is the better choice, and is what is in place now. I'm not sure if that also takes gear into account, but if it doesn't, it should.

Dungeons and trials, however, could have another tier of difficulty added. This is done in other games and players seem satisfied with it. The one problem I see with that, however, is then there will be even more boredom with the base game by some of those players. But if they scale the zone more to the player, this shouldn't have to be so.

idk wrote: »

All that is needed is more or less a return to how things were 6.5 years ago.

The way things were back then didn't work. This is why it was changed. Going back would be a huge mistake.

The way things worked 6.5 years ago did work and worked well. We had to use our basic skills to deal with mechanics. Zos has nerfed things to the point we just DPS through the fights.

As a result we have ended up with players players with high CP that don’t realize they have an interupt. That’s very sad but I have run into players that don’t know these things because they do not need to use them until in a group.

I did remove them from the group since they could not do what was needed.

What doesn’t work is having all this content designed so players are ignorant of such basic combat skills.

Again, what is suggested in this thread is not the way to do it. Not only is it overly complicated but it does not deal with the real issue I have brought up.

These are all very good points and I think a separate thread should be started as a sensible discussion about how Overland has changed and failed to bridge the gap between content & various play-styles. I will write one up would you like to see a rough draft @idk ?

LashanW

hafgood wrote: »

You say the hard mode is for a challenge. Well that's my solution. Hard mode with no reward. Now how many people want to do it? Not many I bet.

God I'd take it in a heartbeat! As long as it stops me from getting bored to death after questing for more than 30 minutes.

Right now I've decommissioned my old templar tank from endgame activities and use him for questing after nerfing him. His damage is low because he has tank stats and CP and movement speed boosting gear. Nothing in questing comes close to hurting him but at least he can't vaporize his enemies with a single ability. It helps with the story immersion a lot.

But I can't do this with my dps characters because they actively do end game content, I can't do massive reconfigurations on them for questing and then back to endgame. While I usually do all questing stuff on one character, I still like to do certain zones with matching races. For example, doing orisinium zone with an Orc, doing summerset zone with a High elf. I find it pretty neat that npcs say different things and the occasional quest offering alternative objectives depending on your race.

When I'm questing I don't care about achievements, I don't care about loot, I don't care about gold reward. All I care about is the story and a matching immersion. If some overland gear interests me, I'd buy it from guild traders. Wouldn't waste a minute farming them.

Farming gear has become a lot less necessary anyways with the sticker book.

idk

Iccotak wrote: »

slirm

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I think increasing the difficulty of content is a good idea.

The only way they can increase the difficulty of overland content is if they make it so you have to complete the zones in a linear fashion, with each zone becoming more difficult than the previous. But this would stop new players who joined the game for the new expansions and DLCs from even seeing that content for a very long time.

Having the zones scale to the player's level is the better choice, and is what is in place now. I'm not sure if that also takes gear into account, but if it doesn't, it should.

Dungeons and trials, however, could have another tier of difficulty added. This is done in other games and players seem satisfied with it. The one problem I see with that, however, is then there will be even more boredom with the base game by some of those players. But if they scale the zone more to the player, this shouldn't have to be so.

idk wrote: »

All that is needed is more or less a return to how things were 6.5 years ago.

The way things were back then didn't work. This is why it was changed. Going back would be a huge mistake.

The way things worked 6.5 years ago did work and worked well. We had to use our basic skills to deal with mechanics. Zos has nerfed things to the point we just DPS through the fights.

As a result we have ended up with players players with high CP that don’t realize they have an interupt. That’s very sad but I have run into players that don’t know these things because they do not need to use them until in a group.

I did remove them from the group since they could not do what was needed.

What doesn’t work is having all this content designed so players are ignorant of such basic combat skills.

Again, what is suggested in this thread is not the way to do it. Not only is it overly complicated but it does not deal with the real issue I have brought up.

These are all very good points and I think a separate thread should be started as a sensible discussion about how Overland has changed and failed to bridge the gap between content & various play-styles. I will write one up would you like to see a rough draft ?

It is really quite simple. Rebalance the game to adjust for the power creep. This is both overland and instances. It is also not the same as making it challenging for those who want a challenging overland.

In doing so some NPCs have their mechanics improved enough to offer a degree of resistance that makes the fight a little more difficult if the person does not use basic skills innate to every build such as an interrupt. NPC healing is a great start to this but also something like harvester NPCs needing to be interrupted or the player needs to rotate around the harvester so they remain behind them and avoid their conal attack.

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

NEMESIS_97

Its pathetic and annoying when you kill quest boss before it even ends his villain bad ass introduction speech

Seminolegirl1992

LashanW wrote: »

show previous quotes

hafgood wrote: »

You say the hard mode is for a challenge. Well that's my solution. Hard mode with no reward. Now how many people want to do it? Not many I bet.

God I'd take it in a heartbeat! As long as it stops me from getting bored to death after questing for more than 30 minutes.

Right now I've decommissioned my old templar tank from endgame activities and use him for questing after nerfing him. His damage is low because he has tank stats and CP and movement speed boosting gear. Nothing in questing comes close to hurting him but at least he can't vaporize his enemies with a single ability. It helps with the story immersion a lot.

But I can't do this with my dps characters because they actively do end game content, I can't do massive reconfigurations on them for questing and then back to endgame. While I usually do all questing stuff on one character, I still like to do certain zones with matching races. For example, doing orisinium zone with an Orc, doing summerset zone with a High elf. I find it pretty neat that npcs say different things and the occasional quest offering alternative objectives depending on your race.

When I'm questing I don't care about achievements, I don't care about loot, I don't care about gold reward. All I care about is the story and a matching immersion. If some overland gear interests me, I'd buy it from guild traders. Wouldn't waste a minute farming them.

Farming gear has become a lot less necessary anyways with the sticker book.

Same, so would I

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

It’s almost like I am making it work for more than just one type of player.

Almost as if it’s a system that gives challenge for those who want it in their story play-through but also has incentive and appeal for other reasons to different players, rather than cater to one specific play style.

Like I’m trying to make it more...accessible.

But no that couldn’t be it at at all.
I must have some secret agenda to make an activity to farm one purple item really inefficiently.
Oh Wait - just like a dungeon, if you completed the story already you’re not going to get a quest reward for fighting the same boss again. So if you already got the Tharn family ring then you’re not gonna get it again by doing the same encounter.

Like I said many, many, many times there wouldn’t really be any “vet level loot“ to get. The only rewards that would be there to pursue would be achievements - if you really wanted cosmetic items like a title or dye 🤷‍♂️

No, you are not making it work for more types of player. You are making it work for your type of player at the expense of other types of player.

Dungeons are great example. Dungeons are content I don't buy on principle exactly because there are different difficulties with the rewards that I will pay for and I will not get.

idk wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

slirm

idk wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

I think increasing the difficulty of content is a good idea.

The only way they can increase the difficulty of overland content is if they make it so you have to complete the zones in a linear fashion, with each zone becoming more difficult than the previous. But this would stop new players who joined the game for the new expansions and DLCs from even seeing that content for a very long time.

Having the zones scale to the player's level is the better choice, and is what is in place now. I'm not sure if that also takes gear into account, but if it doesn't, it should.

Dungeons and trials, however, could have another tier of difficulty added. This is done in other games and players seem satisfied with it. The one problem I see with that, however, is then there will be even more boredom with the base game by some of those players. But if they scale the zone more to the player, this shouldn't have to be so.

idk wrote: »

All that is needed is more or less a return to how things were 6.5 years ago.

The way things were back then didn't work. This is why it was changed. Going back would be a huge mistake.

The way things worked 6.5 years ago did work and worked well. We had to use our basic skills to deal with mechanics. Zos has nerfed things to the point we just DPS through the fights.

As a result we have ended up with players players with high CP that don’t realize they have an interupt. That’s very sad but I have run into players that don’t know these things because they do not need to use them until in a group.

I did remove them from the group since they could not do what was needed.

What doesn’t work is having all this content designed so players are ignorant of such basic combat skills.

Again, what is suggested in this thread is not the way to do it. Not only is it overly complicated but it does not deal with the real issue I have brought up.

These are all very good points and I think a separate thread should be started as a sensible discussion about how Overland has changed and failed to bridge the gap between content & various play-styles. I will write one up would you like to see a rough draft ?

It is really quite simple. Rebalance the game to adjust for the power creep. This is both overland and instances. It is also not the same as making it challenging for those who want a challenging overland.

Crushing power creep into the ground is much for efficient and much more healthy for the balance. But then there is no reason to demand more rewards, right?

SilverBride

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

Smile2342

SilverBride wrote: »

show previous quotes

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Olauron

Smile2342 wrote: »

show previous quotes

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

Smile2342

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

Olauron

Smile2342 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

You can't use a tank build and then complain that character is not dying in overland content. There is no logic in this. Should we increase the difficulty of overland content so that it is dangerous for vet hm trials tanks?

Iccotak

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Smile2342 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

You can't use a tank build and then complain that character is not dying in overland content. There is no logic in this. Should we increase the difficulty of overland content so that it is dangerous for vet hm trials tanks?

“Optional difficulties”

Smile2342

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Smile2342 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

You can't use a tank build and then complain that character is not dying in overland content. There is no logic in this. Should we increase the difficulty of overland content so that it is dangerous for vet hm trials tanks?

I don't study this game. I don't spend time reading articles on builds or theory crafting. I don't watch videos educating me on how I'm "supposed" to play the game. I am a pretty casual player who spends most of my time gathering materials and doing quests. I've done this for over a year or so and reached almost 500CP. What I've noticed is that simply doing this lead me to my observation. The logic is that I didn't read in game hints that said "limit yourself to 10k health; It makes the game a challenge".

Maybe if all the other casuals that are complaining that the game is too "hard" they could increase their health attribute instead of making "scary" level monsters easier. Maybe health should be limited to a max amount. Maybe "Scary" level creatures should scale differently. I don't know, but insulting people certainly doesn't help gain an understanding of what people are seeing when they play the game.

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

You can't use a tank build and then complain that character is not dying in overland content. There is no logic in this. Should we increase the difficulty of overland content so that it is dangerous for vet hm trials tanks?

“Optional difficulties”

This again, no wonder. Also no wonder, that any solution without rewards (or without artificial difficulties, but with perceived difficulty) is automatically dismissed.

Smile2342 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Smile2342 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

idk wrote: »

This is not the same as returning to the same difficulty it was in 2014 but merely brings in some resistance so newer and lesser experienced players need to use those basic skills the tutorial teaches us. Interrupt and block.

When I read statements like that what I hear is "You are not good so let's make the game harder and force you to get good."

You cannot force players to develop their characters to anything other than what they want them to be. Not everyone cares about being the best. Many just want to enjoy the story, complete questlines and fill in maps, earn achievements, roleplay, craft, decorate their houses... all valid ways for them to play their game.

But that is another subject for another thread, so let's not wander away from the topic in this one.

It's not about being the best. It's not something I care about. But I find that the power creep even on a crafter character will eventually make them unbeatable to Main story bosses. To me that is the problem; when self healing auto regeneration keeps you from dipping below 75% health. Where is the fun if you simply can not die even with hands off the keyboard for ten minutes. It's kind of sad that you'd have to strip off all items and CP to back to having it "difficult". I think it does shows that the relative power scaling is broken. I don't think I'm the only on that thinks that.

Well, that is a huge exaggeration (to name it nicely). Any of my (far not just crafter) characters with 3 full sets (including monster sets) purple and gold with a health of about 9k - 11k and health recovery of about 300 - 350 (per 2 seconds) would die to any 2 or 3 mobs in less than 10 seconds with hands off keyboard. No idea what game are you playing, but I am yet to see ESO story boss with damage less than 150 per second.

I can only speak of my experience. 9k - 11k seems really low. Mine shows to be 23k with 366 health recovery. Simple overland gear like Grace of Gloom kicks in extra heals and Major Evasion. So it seems that I'm much more tankier than what you are thinking is acceptable. There are a lot of damn variabilities in the game and assuming everyone else is running your meta is nonsense. But you are right. I'll make a character of glass that easily dies in Craglorn or in PVP area. Thanks. Can you send me gold so I can respec every time I want to do regular content?

You can't use a tank build and then complain that character is not dying in overland content. There is no logic in this. Should we increase the difficulty of overland content so that it is dangerous for vet hm trials tanks?

I don't study this game. I don't spend time reading articles on builds or theory crafting. I don't watch videos educating me on how I'm "supposed" to play the game. I am a pretty casual player who spends most of my time gathering materials and doing quests. I've done this for over a year or so and reached almost 500CP. What I've noticed is that simply doing this lead me to my observation. The logic is that I didn't read in game hints that said "limit yourself to 10k health; It makes the game a challenge".

Maybe if all the other casuals that are complaining that the game is too "hard" they could increase their health attribute instead of making "scary" level monsters easier. Maybe health should be limited to a max amount. Maybe "Scary" level creatures should scale differently. I don't know, but insulting people certainly doesn't help gain an understanding of what people are seeing when they play the game.

Do you think I use guides? I do not. I have never read a single guide on ESO. I simply know that the bigger the main resource of the character, the bigger his damage. Since I want to kill enemies (even in overland) faster, I am increasing the damage. And I am not surprised that the damage is increasing, when I am using sets that increase damage. I am also not surprised, that Phoenix set protects me (previously - revives me), when it is needed. That is the whole purpose of the set and it is written in the tooltip. You took the Grace of Gloom yourself. You knew what it was doing. If you think that it protects you too much, you already know, what to do.

By the way, at the launch of the game all characteristics had soft caps, including health, armor and damage power. The game became worse since then.

Iccotak

ZOS does not make any content that doesn’t have some form of reward, especially when it comes to difficult content whether or not you can choose the difficulty. Harder difficulty settings always had some form of reward, including challenge banners, so asking that this one activity be the exception for arbitrary reasons is not realistic.

Personally I would play a Veteran Story Boss despite a lack of rewards, as would many others here because they are tired of way too easy solo content BUT

1. I understand that not all players think or play that way. And. That. Is. OK. It is ok that there are players who are only interested in the reward because that is what the game incentivizes. I am not worried about them “farming” a story encounter because the upgrades of the green & blue loot from that encounter would not be that big of a deal when there are more efficient means to obtain them. This is why I leaned on achievements.

2. it would be absurd to ask ZOS to make content that purely caters to me, or to invest resources into something that doesn’t contribute to long term player engagement. Just as I think it is equally absurd to say that the Story, which the team markets to ALL players of all play styles, should only be designed for one play style or difficulty setting.

I am not debating with Olauron anymore because it has become increasingly apparent their overall philosophy runs contrary to how the game works, at the fundamentals. This is not intended to shame them this is just stating my opinion on what they have said.
If you want a better understanding of their perspective - I would recommend reading their post here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/509875/veteran-content-story-mode-rewards
That would be the better place to hold a debate on what effort justifies rewards OR in have it in an entirely separate thread.

Not everyone asking for harder story is an endgame player, nor are they asking for it to be as hard as Veteran Trials or Veteran DLC Dungeons.
Plenty of them are solo players or “casuals” just like you and your friends. So stop generalizing an entire player base as “Veteran Elitists who just want stuff” to dismiss their desire for harder story OR their opinion that the game needs work in balancing & mechanics considering that harder questing & story has been one of the major top consistent requests for a while now.

A Sample of other discussions

Spoiler

Other discussions about Harder Overland content
Just to list a few

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6788870

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/526340/legendary-overland-difficulty-toggle-option/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524584/why-is-this-game-so-easy/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6750634

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/530402/there-is-too-much-separation-between-story-and-group-content/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/507695/a-zone-with-public-dungeon-difficulty

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/519603/eso-is-too-easy/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529668/expectations-trailer-hype-vs-reality-difficulty/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/524416/classic-tes-feature-difficulty-slider/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6761583

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/535102/eso-overland-veteran-mode/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/532118/easy-normal-hard-difficulty-level-option

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/511873/sancre-tor-this-is-how-easy-the-game-has-become/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6595831

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6389888

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/521439/zones-main-story-quest-bosses-needs-to-be-stronger/p1

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/531898/a-new-player-feedback-eso-is-both-phenomenal-and-terrible/p1

When the story bosses are built up to be the ultimate big bad but present no actual challenge or threat (even as an option) then it takes away from the experience, because a victory that feels handed to us makes the story overall feel worse off. Believe it or not, there are players who are invested in the story that are more engaged and immersed when the combat is harder. (Not when the player is nerfed, but when the enemies are actually designed to be mechanically tougher, self gimping is. NOT. Fun)

I am not going to ask ZOS to make a difficulty setting or an activity that runs contrary to their design philosophy. Rather I will use their philosophy and apply to other areas in the game that I think could use that treatment. That is part of why it would be optional. That is my final word on the subject here on this thread.

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

Personally I would play a Veteran Story Boss despite a lack of rewards, as would many others here because they are tired of way too easy solo content BUT

It's amazing how a simple 3 letter word can completely change the meaning of everything that came before it.

I suggested that you consider an optional difficulty mode that could be completed just once on the storyline main antagonist, but you had several reasons why you didn't think that would work. I addressed each of these reasons one by one with possible solutions, but you never responded.

I am trying to take your request as genuine, and that maybe you really do just want a harder storyline final fight. But (that word again) when I suggested that this should not be repeatable, and ways this could work, you didn't reply. I wish you would consider my suggestions, as they were given in a geniuine effort to find a middle ground.

crjs1

My concern is how do we decide what is a challenge?

As is fairly obvious there is a huge power disparity between new/casual players and vets / high CP. Many folk on the thread have said they want a challenge but don’t expect ‘vet’ level difficulty. But how would that work, when for endgames (or even people with a great rotation etc) a modest increase in overland difficulty isn’t going to make much of a difference at all. Maybe a few seconds longer to kill bosses.... For a noticeable increase in difficulty the bosses would need to be hugely buffed. But by doing that you are going to exclude a huge proportion of players.

I just can’t see many vets being satisfied with a moderate increase in difficulty, it wouldn’t be enough and would end in more and more calls for ever increasing difficulties (and no doubt better rewards).

spartaxoxo

FWIW, I do agree with you that a middle ground solution would be best. I'd also like to see no reward solo dungeons for people who want to just listen to the dialogue in story dungeons. Stuff like that is truly optional for everyone not just people who aren't completionists .

heaven13

Just because ZoS has only ever done it one way, doesn't mean they can't change their minds. Examples:

• Purchasable skyshards/guild lines
• Alliance change tokens
• Vet gear (vet used to award same gear, different color, like Crag trials, new trials have perfected)

So to say that implementing vet story content requires that it be repeatable just isn't true. Sure, that's how vet dungeons/trials are created now but it's not a necessity.

What I think is reasonable:

• Optional vet difficulty for zone story quests/villians. Put them in instanced areas (most already are behind doors anyway). Difficulty selected by the same normal/veteran toggle already shown in activity finder panel.
• Story quests are not repeatable. We're wanting increased difficulty for immersion; making them repeatable is the opposite of immersive. I already killed him.
• Increase the quest gear tier by one (green > blue, blue > purple).

And that's it.

Players that want a challenge and an immersive experience are given one and ZoS may increase player retention because those players can now enjoy story content a little more. Players that don't want to/cannot do veteran difficulty lose nothing by staying at normal and ZoS keeps them because they're not alienating a large portion of the player base by locking new collectibles (dyes, cosmetics, titles, achievements) behind content they feel is above their skill level.

Seminolegirl1992

^^^Well said.