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Discussion and poll about veteran zones and difficulty adjusments

martygod12
martygod12
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Hi, I know there was a lot of topics on this subject here on the forums lately and I also noticed mostly negative reactions, which was a little bit suprising for me. So first of all I would like to ask all the players, who thinks this wouldn´t be a good idea to write here why? As I can see it, most topics regarding this subject are not suggesting overall difficulty increase or switch to veteran zones and therefore forcing players, which are struggeling with overland content to make things harder for them. They are asking for separate instances of the zones for more experienced players, who also loves to quest and explore overland (like myself), but just don´t have any challenge doing so and therefore they can´t enjoy that content properly. In my opinion I can´t see how this can go wrong, if this will be implemented correctly.

First of all we are talking about separate veteran instances of the original zones, so all the players who doesn´t want any more challenge or are struggeling with the difficulty as it is now, can still play in normal zones, which would be exactly the same as they are now.

And now for the veteran zones themselves. Firstly the zones must be implemented in a way so they can convince the biggest number of players acutally playing them. I know that there are only few of us, who would play them just for the bigger challenge, so there must also be better loot from bosses and rewards for quests, so In that way you acutally get something back for making your game harder. Now in my opinion there should be more than just one veteran zone. Lets say for example 4 levels of veteran zones ( for example CP160, CP300, CP600, CP810) each providing more difficult content, but also more and better rewards. Basically it would work little bit like normal and veteran dungeons.

As for the rewards there could be bigger drop rate and better quality set items, tempers, crafting mats, style pages etc. etc. and maybe a chance for dropping some loot box (like pyandonean bottle). The quest rewards will consist from more gold and exp. Naturally on higher tiers of the veteran zones the drop rates and quality of the items will be higher. And if you think, that this could ruin the game economy, then maybe there shouldn´t be crafting mats, alchemy ingredients, style pages etc., but just way more gold from loot and quest rewards. Lets say like 10x more gold, which will be naturally also scaled with veteran zones tiers.

Now I don´t think that it would be a good idea to make everything harder in those zones (no one wants to waste time killing basic mob which will be just bullet sponges), so I think that they should make only the bosses harder and the mob should be given just a slight buff (lets say as difficult as the quest bosses are now :P you can still kill it in less than five seconds :D ) and maybe some particular mightier monsters (like giants, trolls, minotaurs etc.) could use some bigger buffs, so it makes sense, that they are more powerfull than some basic monsters and therefore harder to kill. They will also provide a better loot if you kill them.

And now the main idea. Harder bosses. They need to be challenging enough, but also not too hard so you don´t have to group for every quest boss and you can solo them. I would say make them strong somewhere between public dungeon bosses and starter zones world bosses. That way there are some challenge, but and experienced players can still deal with them solo. Give them some buffs to health (like 700k-2m maybe, also scaled and based on the veteran zone tier), resistances, damage etc., so they are acutally able to kill you sometimes and that you actualy have to think a little bit about how the handle the fight and not just spamming one skill untill its dead. This would also make lots of quests much more epic, because they are really well written and lots of them have awesome atmosphere, which is then often totally ruined with disapointng boss fight.

The world bosses on the other hand should be adjusted separately, because I think they would need more love to balance them properly so they are not impossible hard to kill. Because in my opinion lots of the base game bosses are easy enough to be killed solo, but lots of the DLC bosses are very tough even in group. So maybe some of them should be buffed and become stronger and some of them should remain as they are now (or maybe some slight buff).

Some problems could maybe occur for really experienced players, which are already have most of the quests completed. Here I am not sure how to implement it correctly, so they can replay the quests in veteran zones again, but how to make it so, that they dont lose any important progress or so. Here I would love to hear any ideas or suggestions from you guys how do you think this should be handled.

If I forgot about some important things which should be handled with making veteran zones, please also write them here :)

I am adding a poll also just to see what do you thing about those ideas in general, but since this is mostly a discussion please write here all your ideas, suggestions, opinions etc. regarding this topic. Thanks :)

And sorry for my bad english I am not a native speaker :)

Discussion and poll about veteran zones and difficulty adjusments 76 votes

Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
32%
EarrindoGadamlub14_ESOTanis-StormbinderThe_AurorRi_KhanhiydeEmma_OverloadSnowZeniaIccotakJhalinloki504MasterLenmanSolidusPrimeChickenSuckerFakeFoxMehrunesFlagonKalik_GoldZeroXFFvalkyrie93Rave the Histborn 25 votes
Yes, but make only the bosses harder
3%
TelvanniWizardmartygod12UncleJim 3 votes
No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
57%
DaveMoeDeeDanikatp_tsakirisb16_ESOEdaphonAsysSilverwillowfeyiiKnightpantherEnemy-of-ColdharbourparpinKatahdinArrilleShadow_AkulaLadyHeloisemax_onlykathandiraDark_Lord_Kuroaltunit21buttafaceVeuth 44 votes
Other ideas
5%
HuyenInvictusApollojcm2606StormeReigns 4 votes
  • mocap
    mocap
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    inb4 local bs such as "have you tried play naked in vet trials solo"... devs must do something with overland difficulty for vet players.

    2k+ casual quests and counting. How about quests for vet players, not only repetitive dungeons!
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Alik'r Dolmen farming is what we have now. If you have a Veteran zone with better rewards, all of it will be ignored except for what gives good XP and good rewards with minimal effort -- and then like Alik'r they'll get a huge mob and mow it down too easily -- veteran zone difficulty won't matter. If the reward doesn't match the EFFORT (not difficulty necessarily), people will just ignore it.
    There ARE harder bosses (Bittergreen? Thodundor? Vvardenfell bosses?) and there IS harder overland content (Craglorn). You don't see people doing that much. Think about why.

    Furthermore, everything you want is already basically done in dungeons and trials.
    Harder mobs, harder bosses, more and theoretically better loot -- that's basically a dungeon, vet dungeon, and trials.
    And they LIMIT the number of people AND direct the entire encounter in dungeons and trials FOR GOOD REASON -- so you don't get a huge mob farming something over and over very quickly. Which some people can sort of do anyway, but there's no reason to deliberately make getting goodies an easy-push-button experience like Alik'r.

    You want hard? Grind trials. Veteran hard mode dungeons. That's what they are there for.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on October 10, 2019 9:05AM
  • Knightpanther
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    See above, exactly what I was going to say before I boiled the kettle

    Be safe
  • Huyen
    Huyen
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    Other ideas
    The main idea is good, altho I think giving a boss more health is gonna backfire for those of us who play tanks and healers. Content on those roles is hard enough as it is. For the rest: I second this completely.
    Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank - PS4 (Retired)
    Huyen Swiftpaw, nightblade dps - PC EU (Retired)
    Huyen Lightpaw, templar healer - PC EU (Retired)
    Huyen Swiftpaw, necromancer dps - PC EU (Retired)
    Huyen Swiftpaw, dragonknight (no defined role yet)

    "Failure is only the opportunity to begin again. Only this time, more wisely" - Uncle Iroh
  • Danikat
    Danikat
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Two issues:

    1) Why does "I want more challenging and fun gameplay" always turn immediately into "actually what I want is better drops"? Oh, but to protect the economy we're just going to give everyone 10x as much gold...because that won't have any impact right?

    As other people have said we already see a significant number of players devoting most of their time to farming the most profitable areas as quickly as possible. That's exactly what your vet zones will be - people clustered in the easiest farm spots within those maps farming gold and drops, then going back to normal maps if they want to complete quests because they want to do that as quickly as possible too.

    2) Splitting the playerbase more than necessary isn't a good idea. That's what we used to have before One Tamriel. You started off in your own alliance, going through the maps as you levelled up, then you went through Cadwell's Silver and Gold visiting the other alliances which were veteran level difficulty. It meant you only ever got to see and play with a tiny fraction of the game's population and contributed a lot to the impression that the game was not that popular, because you'd never seen many people in-game.

    With your suggestion you'd end up with everyone who hasn't reached level 50 or doesn't want harder difficulty in the normal maps, farmers in the 810CP map's farming hotspots and a few people scattered around the rest of the game questing alone.

    I'm all for ZOS finding a way to optionally increase the difficulty (I'm one of the people who plays without CP for exactly that reason) but not by splitting the playerbase into tiny groups based on level/CP or creating what's basically just a haven for hardcore farmers and no one else.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
  • FierceSam
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    You lost me at “I want better loot”

    The better loot is already out there. It’s just not out there in overland content.

    Overland content is for everyone... you don’t make the game better or more accessible to new players by making the easiest content harder.

    It’s a bit sad that you’ll never face an overland boss as badass as the one you did when you were young and ill-equipped and unskilled at the game... but now you can experience the same sense of frustration and joy fighting more difficult content.

    And while you are out there, ponder this... why are there so few people doing this content?
  • redlink1979
    redlink1979
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    The game was harder before, when veteran ranks existed. Overland content is now accessible to anyone, either if you're a vet player, a new player or a casual player: basically you can do any zone at any level now and you'll be scaled to play there fine.

    Do you want better loot and harder challenges? Then you should run the end-game content: veteran dungeons in hard mode and veteran trials in hard mode...
    "Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"
    • Sons of the Night Mother | VforVendetta | Grownups Gaming EU | English Elders [PS][EU] 2360 CP
    • Daggerfall's Mightiest | Eternal Champions | Legacy | Tamriel Melting Pot [PS][NA] 2190 CP
    • SweetTrolls | Spring Rose | Daggerfall Royal Legion | Tinnitus Delux [PC][EU] 2345 CP
    • Bacon Rats | Silverlight Brotherhood | Canis Root Tea Party | Vincula Doloris [PC][NA] 2090 CP
  • Gadamlub14_ESO
    Gadamlub14_ESO
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    Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
    I miss the zones before one tamriel.

    Nothing like YOLOing my way on foot from elden root to reapers march to try and get vampire, only to see all the people instagibbing them to extort the others for money.

    I miss those days. and the non minmaxing stat counts. they were a simpler time. whats the point when now, a fresh account spamming light attack can effectively do 3/4 of the game solo?
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
    Bobby_V_Rockit
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    They were empty when they were a thing
  • Darkenarlol
    Darkenarlol
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    aaand here we go again =)

    - better loot?

    so all that "make zones more fun" bla-bla is just a cover

    for "gimme moar shinies" and have no relation to any fun actually


    - bosses 2m hp?

    ~40sec solo for "better loot" again...10sec 4dd fight is sooo epic

    to be so-so epic for competent players they should be DLC HM level...

    which we allready have in...DLC HMs


    - harder quests?

    ..is it for alts only? or for 1 time clear and forget? or all the quests

    become stupid wow style daylies?
  • Xologamer
    Xologamer
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    Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
    just buff the base game - its not even possible to die in the normal world u can litterly onehit everymob with a aoe spammable.... and bosses die in 2sec and worldbosses solo in 2-5min

    WAY to easie
  • Recent
    Recent
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Not a good idea because;

    It would split up the community
    It will just cause more work for zos and they already have enough with trying to balance things every couple of months.
    We wont have one Tamriel anymore
    They are already lowering dps so mobs will probably take longer to kill anyway, you'd assume that they would.

    I've been in many big guilds and I listen and read what players say and most are looking for the fastest way to level their alts or even first time character...the impatience is unbelievable so you think players are going to stick around when the oveland mobs take 'longer to kill' and every few steps they take while questing is going to be dragged out for longer cause they have to engage in long winded fights....lol they would tire of that real quick and you'll end up with empty, deserted overland zones with a few complaining it's dead.
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    Other ideas
    Either give us a debuff food or a setting that will increase difficulty for those players who want it. A slider with multiplier for incoming damage would be great but even a set of debuff foods each with different buff to incoming damage, would be awesome for me.
  • bmnoble
    bmnoble
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Does not matter how many hit points they give bosses, take the Dragon event going on now for instance, have seen the Dragons go down as quick as dolmen bosses in prime time when the locations are camped by large groups.

    If they have decent loot you will see massive groups going from one boss to the other wiping them out in a short amount of time and if they over buff the bosses, eventually most people will lose interest and you will have people in zone begging for a group to do them.


    Why do you need better loot, if your just looking for extra challenge in these zones? Surely the extra challenge should be sufficient, to get people to play in these zones.


    The reason that overland is not as popular with long term players, is because many have cleared the zones on one or multiple characters, or farmed set pieces in those zones for so long that they are bored of doing the same content again.

    Just upping the difficulty is not going to make those zones fresh and interesting again.


    If they absolutely must do Vet overland content do it as an option in the new DLC zones as they release don't rehash the old content, that many have done to death.

    As for the quests they are not that exciting, once you have done them before you want to get them over with as quickly as possible if you choose to do them that is, why do you think they started selling the skyshard packs on the crowns store, people want to skip doing the skill point questing and get straight to group content or PVP.

    If they made all the current zones have a Vet overland option imagine how spread out the players that want to do the Vet zones would be, you would be lucky to find any groups for the harder stuff you want.


    And finally what motivation does ZOS have to make Vet overland zones? Can't imagine a big customer base, nor a way they could really make money off it, they can't sell the same zones with a difficulty increase to the player base without receiving a lot of hate, which is why it is not likely to happen any time soon.
  • jcm2606
    jcm2606
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    Other ideas
    Add some player-sided difficulty scaling, that changes the damage done/taken multipliers to basically adjust how hard you hit mobs, and how hard mobs hit back. Maybe also adjust healing done or taken too (one or the other, not both, taken would probably be best to not mess with grouping in overland). This way, vets don't steamroll overland by just sneezing in the vague direction of a mob, and newer players can bring the difficulty down a tad if they want to.

    Rework mob behaviour and mechanics to more severely punish not following them, so mobs aren't just damage sponges at higher difficulties, or pushovers that don't care if you stay in red and get hit by an attack that was telegraphed 2 seconds ago at lower difficulties. Make players follow mechanics, so that newer players already know the basics by the time they reach end game, as the game taught them and made them practice until it all stuck.

    Doing both in tandem would offer optional difficulty tweaks, in both directions, while also addressing the lack of consequences for not following mechanics, in such a way that works in both directions. Win/win.
    Edited by jcm2606 on October 10, 2019 3:08PM
  • rpa
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    Veteran zones would divide player base

    Having option to make overland challenging for a vet player without stripping charaters naked and unassinging CP would be nice, but I'm not sure if people actually would use that feature. Sure would try it but it just might get tedious fast. And if it was a slider one could tweak every time one just wants to quickly waltz thru something boring, what would be the point?
  • rotaugen454
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    Craglorn USED to be hard. I would dread getting crafting surveys there, as they were often by a wasp nest and I was just collecting mats, not looking for a big challenge. If I wanted that, there were plenty of options.
    "Get off my lawn!"
  • martygod12
    martygod12
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    Yes, but make only the bosses harder
    Ok i would actually play the zones with normal loot just to have more challenge .. is that i know that lots of people complained on previous topics that they dont want to play harder game with same rewards .. i don't care about this i just want some challenge and Fun
    Edited by martygod12 on October 10, 2019 2:49PM
  • idk
    idk
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    There is a reason why it is rare to find a major MMORPG these days that has a challenging overland. It is because it is good business sense to appeal to the masses and have tiered difficulty via dungeons and trials. Heck, Zos attempted a veteran zone with both Craglorn additions and they had to dial it back multiple notches because the player base spoke loudly. That was before every addition to the game had to appeal to new players and veteran players alike. So nice idea but very unlikely.
  • Rave the Histborn
    Rave the Histborn
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    Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
    If the game had actually PVE difficulty then I think we'd see less hysterics about things like PVP and it might help the population grow.
  • Starlock
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    They cannot and should not touch anything with overland difficulty until the CP system is changed. When and if that is addressed, ALL content in the game will need a pass and it should not be done in a way that splits the player base. It's simply unnecessary.
  • Luede
    Luede
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    Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
    Veteran Zone is fine, but i would not give "better" rewards. The more challanging zone is enough to reward the people.
  • starlizard70ub17_ESO
    starlizard70ub17_ESO
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    Bittergreen misses you :)
    kehU4Tv.jpg
    "We have found a cave, but I don't think there are warm fires and friendly faces inside."
  • Vinterskald
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Nah, I kind of don't see the point. I mean, sure, when I run overland content now there barely is any fight that's remotely challenging, but there's enough content in the game that still is difficult enough. And I do remember when I started out - way before my first trial runs and vMA, and ESO was the first MMO I played - even very simply delve fights were awful for me because I simply had no idea what I was doing. And there obviously are and will always be players who just started out and are struggling with what vet players think to be laughable. Obviously those people don't go into Craglorn, or sign up for vet hard mode trials, so why make the content they do play even harder for them?

    Craglorn still is more difficult than all of the other base game zones, but I rarely see other players do anything there aside from surveys, the Spellscar, and Skyreach.

    I personally really like it the way it is now with One Tamriel :smile:
    Barra agea ry sou karan.
  • Xologamer
    Xologamer
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    Yes, make complete veteran zones (harder bosses and mob)
    Recent wrote: »
    Not a good idea because;

    It would split up the community
    It will just cause more work for zos and they already have enough with trying to balance things every couple of months.
    We wont have one Tamriel anymore
    They are already lowering dps so mobs will probably take longer to kill anyway, you'd assume that they would.

    I've been in many big guilds and I listen and read what players say and most are looking for the fastest way to level their alts or even first time character...the impatience is unbelievable so you think players are going to stick around when the oveland mobs take 'longer to kill' and every few steps they take while questing is going to be dragged out for longer cause they have to engage in long winded fights....lol they would tire of that real quick and you'll end up with empty, deserted overland zones with a few complaining it's dead.

    dude u can onehit the standert 40klife mobs with a AOE spammable and this skill wont get nerfed next patch
  • Danikat
    Danikat
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    jcm2606 wrote: »
    Add some player-sided difficulty scaling, that changes the damage done/taken multipliers to basically adjust how hard you hit mobs, and how hard mobs hit back. Maybe also adjust healing done or taken too (one or the other, not both, taken would probably be best to not mess with grouping in overland). This way, vets don't steamroll overland by just sneezing in the vague direction of a mob, and newer players can bring the difficulty down a tad if they want to.

    Rework mob behaviour and mechanics to more severely punish not following them, so mobs aren't just damage sponges at higher difficulties, or pushovers that don't care if you stay in red and get hit by an attack that was telegraphed 2 seconds ago at lower difficulties. Make players follow mechanics, so that newer players already know the basics by the time they reach end game, as the game taught them and made them practice until it all stuck.

    Doing both in tandem would offer optional difficulty tweaks, in both directions, while also addressing the lack of consequences for not following mechanics, in such a way that works in both directions. Win/win.

    I like this idea. Especially making the mechanics more relevant. It's always disappointing to me when I repeat something I've done in a game on a harder difficulty and find that 'harder' just means the boss has more health. The fight is exactly the same, but instead of going through my rotation once I do it two or three times. It's not any more fun, it just takes longer.

    I understand why it's rarer for games or add or enforce mechanics at harder difficulties, because that's much more work than simply increasing the numbers, but it also makes playing harder difficulities more fun and more rewarding instead of just slower.
    PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!

    "Remember in this game we call life that no one said it's fair"
  • Starlock
    Starlock
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    Xologamer wrote: »
    Recent wrote: »
    Not a good idea because;

    It would split up the community
    It will just cause more work for zos and they already have enough with trying to balance things every couple of months.
    We wont have one Tamriel anymore
    They are already lowering dps so mobs will probably take longer to kill anyway, you'd assume that they would.

    I've been in many big guilds and I listen and read what players say and most are looking for the fastest way to level their alts or even first time character...the impatience is unbelievable so you think players are going to stick around when the oveland mobs take 'longer to kill' and every few steps they take while questing is going to be dragged out for longer cause they have to engage in long winded fights....lol they would tire of that real quick and you'll end up with empty, deserted overland zones with a few complaining it's dead.

    dude u can onehit the standert 40klife mobs with a AOE spammable and this skill wont get nerfed next patch

    Which AoE does 40k damage per tick now? Because that's what one hit of an AoE ability is - one tick of damage. Did you mean to say "you can kill standard mobs with a single CAST of an AoE ability?" If so, keep in mind that just because you can do this... doesn't mean everyone can. Many players can't.
  • notyuu
    notyuu
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    MMO Rule #1
    NEVER Divide your player base

    You break that rule, the game dies, slowly, but steadily
    what you're proposing would, simply put, divide the player base further
  • DaveMoeDee
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    I have no opinion as I am not looking for more mindless grinding.

    I play through content for the narrative. I do group activities to coordinate with other people. I grind events and money-earning activities because I am an idiot and a masochist who chases numbers instead of enjoying my gameplay sessions.

    I think the idea proposed by the OP is a mess though because they don't explain how to handle quests and that is central to their idea. What is the point in suggesting buffing bosses in a vet mode without having a solution for how to make those one-time bosses available again.
  • Iskiab
    Iskiab
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    No, this wouldn´t be good for the game + reason why
    I don’t see a point. If skills were easier to level then maybe harder zones would make sense, as is I use open world to level skill lines.

    Every new character I play I use one spammable, the rest of my skill slots are devoted to leveling skills and most of them I can’t even use. Then for public dungeons I add a healing ability.

    Harder zones might be okay, but normal zones need to stay easy.
    Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
    Havoc Warhammer - Alair
    LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
    PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
    Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten
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