Harder Main Story Bosses

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

Except again your primary issue is the lack of obtainable cosmetics and feeling like too much is gated behind Veteran content.

Your mindset has been only one side can have what they want.
When in reality it'd be better to do both.

Put more cosmetics in normal overland (which ZOS has been doing with the Excavation skill lines and multiple events every year to get more, also a money store if you really want something, so it's not like your being ignored)
AND We can get the Optional Veteran Boss Fight

They are doing both right now. One group has quests and others have all the other similar content. Putting the only system that doesn't work that way into the vet system removes the ability to have both systems in the game and places everything under the vet system. Only established players benefit from that, at the expense of the new and casual players who cannot or won't participate in the vet system.

A challenge banner gives endgame players more interesting stories without putting literally everything under the vet system.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

This would be better served in a separate thread discussing the issue rather than acting like it has to be "either or"

SilverBride

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

SilverBride wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

And that is what it really comes down to.

By your own admission you haven't played since Elsweyr, so I assume that you aren't a subscriber. Why would they listen to what you want, and give you extra rewards, over players who are playing and care enough about the game to subscribe? They would have too much to lose if they did that.

I stopped subscribing partly because of that very issue with story bosses (also life and school)
But Yes, how dare I criticize a game I have played since beta but take a break for the majority of one year..oh the humanity.

Also are you really saying that is your "Gotcha" moment, is me pointing out how I literally designed the "Veteran Mode" after other Veteran Modes already in the game.

show previous quotes

I said the boss fight are boring and it'd be nice to have a Veteran mode BUT if we do that then we would have to add in rewards for the Veteran activity - just like every Veteran activity does

[snip]

And the fact that veteran rewards was suggested just proves it's not about the difficulty of the storyline boss being boring and lackluster. It's about wanting better loot for something that is not meant to be difficult in the first place.

[Edited to remove Baiting]

spartaxoxo

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

[Quoted post was removed]

I will. I won't let new players and casuals who can't do vet stuff to be erased from the conversation. Comments like "anyone can do it" erases the ones that can't, and I'll point out that there is experience and skill that those average/mid tier players have that new and casual ones don't each time.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

Except again your primary issue is the lack of obtainable cosmetics and feeling like too much is gated behind Veteran content.

Your mindset has been only one side can have what they want.
When in reality it'd be better to do both.

Put more cosmetics in normal overland (which ZOS has been doing with the Excavation skill lines and multiple events every year to get more, also a money store if you really want something, so it's not like your being ignored)
AND We can get the Optional Veteran Boss Fight

They are doing both right now. One group has quests and others have everything else. Putting the only system that doesn't work that way into the vet system removes the ability to have both in the game and places everything under the vet system. Only established players benefit from that, at the expense of the new and casual players who cannot or won't participate in the vet system.

So back to the "Vets have Trials and Dungeons" argument - that is pretty exclusionary and a bit petty.

Only established players

Any long time player is an established player. Or are you just focused on new players immediate access to get everything.
Incentive to keep playing and work your way through the game is great for long term health and engagement . Win-Win
Again you're acting like "casual" and "Vets" are two different classes of the haves and have nots.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

This would be better served in a separate thread discussing the issue rather than acting like it has to be "either or"

Current system is both. Proposed system is only for vets. I am discussing the proposed system as it would be implemented in this game based on how this game works. That's relevant to this thread not a new one.

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

By all means, continue shoving your idea of an ideal eso down our throats while we attempt to share our own ideas. I already know where you stand on it, and you know where I stand on it. Your ideas are not mine, and that is that.

I will. I won't let new players and casuals who can't do vet stuff to be erased from the conversation. Comments like "anyone can do it" erases the ones that can't, and I'll point out that there is experience and skill that those average/mid tier players have that new and casual ones don't each time.

So why aren't you arguing against other Veteran Content systems?
Also why not just make a thread discussing a lack of cosmetics in overland?

What happened to motivating players to participate in content?

Your catering demands are getting inconsistent

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

This would be better served in a separate thread discussing the issue rather than acting like it has to be "either or"

Current system is both. Proposed system is only for vets. I am discussing the proposed system as it would be implemented in this game based on how this game works. That's relevant to this thread not a new one.

No the system is not Both.
Its Story is only hard for new and casuals. If you want challenge then play something else. And completely dismissing anyone who points out that the final story boss is not fun and wish it would live up to the what the year long story was building up to.

The system is not perfect the way it is.

Iccotak

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

By all means, continue shoving your idea of an ideal eso down our throats while we attempt to share our own ideas. I already know where you stand on it, and you know where I stand on it. Your ideas are not mine, and that is that.

I will. I won't let new players and casuals who can't do vet stuff to be erased from the conversation. Comments like "anyone can do it" erases the ones that can't, and I'll point out that there is experience and skill that those average/mid tier players have that new and casual ones don't each time.

I really do find it amusing that you're attempting to villainize those with different ideas of the game, presenting yourself as the hero of casuals and the one who defines what one is, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth. You refuse to see any reason or logic, or compromise, and therefore I have no further interest in your responses.

Seriously, so dramatic.
imo all they've shown is an obsession with achievements. It's gotten ridiculous.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

So back to the "Vets have Trials and Dungeons" argument - that is pretty exclusionary and a bit petty.

No. It is not. If you're gonna take a system away from new and casuals and feed it into the vet system, it is important to consider how many systems each group has to engage with. In this case, the new and casuals have very little content. And the established players have a lot. Someone pushing back against the idea of soliciting money from a poor person to give to Kylie Jenner so she can be a billionaire isn't being petty by pointing out that Kylie has a ton of money and the poor person doesn't. That's the truth and it absolutely relevant to whether or not that's a good idea.

In this case, new and more casual players don't have a lot of content that can totally complete on their own, and get all the associated rewards. The devs are actually in the process of trying to fix this now because too much is locked behind the vet system and it has driven away newer and casual players.

One of the reasons many people play games is to get a mild sense of accomplishment and get rewarded for those accomplishments. They love completing something. And completing one thing makes them want to complete more, pushing themselves to improve to complete more things. By leaving them with nothing to complete because the content meant for them has been transformed into vet content, you take away that fun and make things less engaging. And if they can't even do the introductory content, why bother with the rest of the game?

Casuals/new players vs established mid tier+ players are currently have and have nots. It's natural to games. Which is why introductory content that everyone gets to totally beat is so important to games and why so many games cater early game to those players who cannot do the things more established players can

craybest

story can be challenging in other MMOs, that is not an excuse.

Iccotak

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable or inaccessible

Iccotak

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

By all means, continue shoving your idea of an ideal eso down our throats while we attempt to share our own ideas. I already know where you stand on it, and you know where I stand on it. Your ideas are not mine, and that is that.

I will. I won't let new players and casuals who can't do vet stuff to be erased from the conversation. Comments like "anyone can do it" erases the ones that can't, and I'll point out that there is experience and skill that those average/mid tier players have that new and casual ones don't each time.

I really do find it amusing that you're attempting to villainize those with different ideas of the game, presenting yourself as the hero of casuals and the one who defines what one is, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth. You refuse to see any reason or logic, or compromise, and therefore I have no further interest in your responses.

Seriously, so dramatic.
imo all they've shown is an obsession with achievements. It's gotten ridiculous.

Exactly. Between overdramatization, inconsistency, illogic, demands, overcomplication, and just gatekeeping at this point, I can't take either of them seriously. This thread is being derailed by non issues, unfortunately, which again is a shame as your original post was very well presented.

[Quoted post was removed]

I said that's not what this thread is about, which you made it about.
You have made ONLY strawman arguments about semantics and detracted this whole thing.

That is the entire point because the existing reward structure is the reason for cosmetics being so unobtainable.

This is your core issue with the game, not the OP. You have detracted this thread about optional content and made it about your dislike of the current system already in game.

Aliyavana

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

So back to the "Vets have Trials and Dungeons" argument - that is pretty exclusionary and a bit petty.

No. It is not. If you're gonna take a system away from new and casuals and feed it into the vet system, it is important to consider how many systems each group has to engage with. In this case, the new and casuals have very little content. And the established players have a lot. Someone pushing back against the idea of soliciting money from a poor person to give to Kylie Jenner so she can be a billionaire isn't being petty by pointing out that Kylie has a ton of money and the poor person doesn't. That's the truth and it absolutely relevant to whether or not that's a good idea.

In this case, new and more casual players don't have a lot of content that can totally complete on their own, and get all the associated rewards. The devs are actually in the process of trying to fix this now because too much is locked behind the vet system and it has driven away newer and casual players.

One of the reasons many people play games is to get a mild sense of accomplishment and get rewarded for those accomplishments. They love completing something. And completing one thing makes them want to complete more, pushing themselves to improve to complete more things. By leaving them with nothing to complete because the content meant for them has been transformed into vet content, you take away that fun and make things less engaging. And if they can't even do the introductory content, why bother with the rest of the game?

Casuals/new players vs established mid tier+ players are currently have and have nots. It's natural to games. Which is why introductory content that everyone gets to totally beat is so important to games and why so many games cater early game to those players who cannot do the things more established players can

We are not taking anything away. The casual players are allowed to simply complete the quests normally and immersivly two shot the villain that literally threatens to End of the World, while us veterans would like to immerse ourselves in a villian whose difficulty is appropriate to what they are portrayed as.

Casuals have the most amount of content catered to their needs. Current PVP balancing is catered to casuals to even the playing field with the use of effortless proc sets. The blackest black is available now in non vet content behind a trivial normal arena, with PVErs no longer having to go out of their comfort zone and earn Legate Black to earn the blackest black. Arena weapons are now available to obtain in Normal Arena content, circumventing their need to earn it through hard effort. I could go on, but giving content to the more experienced players is not going to alienate casuals. A casual can get better at the game and be able to compete in better content. Questing and other things do not prepare them properly for end game content and this type of boss system would at least give them some kind of semblance of a (optional) challenge to prepare them.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

also. players absolutely DO expect harder content? why do you think mythic plus exists?...WoW absolutely HAS plethora of options for top tier player to sink their teeth into.

Yes those things exist in WoW, in dungeons and raids. Not in the zones where the story unfolds.

Linaleah wrote: »

that said. having OPTIONS is nice. there is nothing wrong with asking for more options, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of losing existing options.

Change that to "as long as it doesn't come with special rewards" which the OP is proposing this does. Even then I wouldn't agree with it because besides being unfair to the average player, it will do nothing but cause more separation in the playerbase, which is what One Tamriel was introduced to remove.

Also, the fact that the OP hasn't even played Greymoor or the Reach invalidates his assessment because he hasn't even seen the content he is objecting to.

let it come with special rewards. we already have that system in place, if they want to put in more effort, let them have more rewards. I don't have all of the undaunted busts, i will likely NEVER have all of the undaunted busts. doesn't mean that they shouldn't be there, just because I personaly cannot get them. I'm not sure how its unfair to average player when average player loses absolutely nothing,

They do actually. Right now they get all the achievements and collectibles for doing normal mode because there is no vet. In what other place where this system is in place are the good rewards obtainable in normal? It isn't.

This is the ONLY system in the ENTIRE game where all the good cosmetics are obtainable just from doing normal at the same pace as everything else. The ONLY one.

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

You lose out on future obtainable stuff that would have been for everyone but now it isn't.

Except that was bypassed with the solution.
Also All Cosmetics are for everyone if you put in the time and effort.

Just because a person earns cosmetics from endgame content doesn't make them somehow privileged. Any player who puts in the work can obtain those rewards.

and again if your issue is with a perceived lack of obtainable cosmetics in overland right now then start a thread and brainstorm solutions for that issue.

People talk about "end game" as if it's some elite force of ultra talented players, when in reality it's people who do nothing more than put a mostly minimal amount of effort into improving their builds and learning mechanics. Anyone can do it, and I'm not really sure where this misconception of veteran content being unobtainable if you're "casual" comes from. I have many "casual" friends who still roleplay their builds and smash veteran content, from learning mechanics properly.

They are casuals, those are mid-tier players. Many casuals don't want to do all that anymore than you want to fight boring story bosses. And many others literally cannot. I know someone irl who is very ill who falls into the latter category. And his only enjoyment from eso comes from clearing out the story achievement. Your idea completely ruins the game for him. This is his one thing he can do same as anyone else.

I thought we already established your definition of casual and mine were completely different? As if I'm unaware of the types of players that play after all these years. Let it be.

Nope. I will not. This suggestion alienates a group of casuals and I will make sure that is known.

By all means, continue shoving your idea of an ideal eso down our throats while we attempt to share our own ideas. I already know where you stand on it, and you know where I stand on it. Your ideas are not mine, and that is that.

I will. I won't let new players and casuals who can't do vet stuff to be erased from the conversation. Comments like "anyone can do it" erases the ones that can't, and I'll point out that there is experience and skill that those average/mid tier players have that new and casual ones don't each time.

I really do find it amusing that you're attempting to villainize those with different ideas of the game, presenting yourself as the hero of casuals and the one who defines what one is, when in reality it couldn't be further from the truth. You refuse to see any reason or logic, or compromise, and therefore I have no further interest in your responses.

Seriously, so dramatic.
imo all they've shown is an obsession with achievements. It's gotten ridiculous.

Exactly. Between overdramatization, inconsistency, illogic, demands, overcomplication, and just gatekeeping at this point, I can't take either of them seriously. This thread is being derailed by non issues, unfortunately, which again is a shame as your original post was very well presented.

[Quoted post was removed]

I said that's not what this thread is about, which you made it about.
You have made ONLY strawman arguments about semantics and detracted this whole thing.

show previous quotes

That is the entire point because the existing reward structure is the reason for cosmetics being so unobtainable.

This is your core issue with the game, not the OP. You have detracted this thread about optional content and made it about your dislike of the current system already in game.

It is my issue with both the opening post and the game itself. OP is not asking for a new system. They are asking for a system that already exists in game, to replace a system that already functions the way that I want it to function. This means that the pros and cons of the existing system, and how we have seen them interact with the game, is fair points to talk about.

I didn't make it about achievements and rewards. You guys did. By @ replying and arguing vehemently against any suggestion that both gave you what you claimed you wanted, harder bosses and more engaging story quests, without giving those items.

If both sides agree that the story bosses should be more engaging and challenging for endgame players, but disagree about whether or not their should be excusive rewards and cosmetics attached to it, then that is naturally gonna be what dominates the discussion.

As I have said multiple times in this thread, I have no objection to optional increases in boss difficulty for story quests. What I take a problem with is using the existing vet system to do it. Because then an essential part of the early game/casual experience (people at the skill floor) is taken away, which is getting their first completes.

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

Wrong. There are rewards that I can't obtain. There are rewards that I don't want to struggle for to obtain. In either case they are unobtainable for me and this determines whether I am willing to pay for the content with such restrictions or not.

Iccotak

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

spartaxoxo

Aliyavana wrote: »

Questing and other things do not prepare them properly for end game content and this type of boss system would at least give them some kind of semblance of a (optional) challenge to prepare them

It did alienate the casual, that is why Zos is slowly trying to reverse course. They have tried to find a middle ground for these things by making more of this stuff avaiable to mid-tier players so that you have to be better than the casuals/newbies but not as good as the best players.

Most players are mid-tier/average. Better than the casuals but worse than the best. The amount of these rewards for people at the floor is pretty low. Those players become mid-tier by first being at the floor, completiting introductory content, and then deciding they want more so they improve themselves to get to the next level of completion.

spartaxoxo

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Perhaps for him. For others they literally cannot and it's inaccessible. Two examples were given in this thread, a player with bad internet that cannot do them let it be known they cannot, though they personally did not object to the op idea. And my ill friend, who would quit if this got put in just as Olauron would stop spending money.

Olauron

Iccotak wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Wrong. If I know that I will not do something to obtain something, then I know beforehand that this second something is inaccessible to me (as I will not get it). That's like ordering a dish with the supplement you hate. What's the point of wasting money on such order?

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Wrong. If I know that I will not do something to obtain something, then I know beforehand that this second something is inaccessible to me (as I will not get it). That's like ordering a dish with the supplement you hate. What's the point of wasting money on such order?

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy it and should quit if this gets put in since the game would no longer interest you.

But desire is not accessibility issue. There's a difference between "i don't want to" and "I cannot"

As I said earlier to the person you're replying to that said this. So I think he understands you really well and hopefully this can help you guys come to a better understanding. Since I think you're using it the same way here as he is using it

Iccotak wrote: »

And anti-climatic Bossfight is an accessibility issue. Because those bosses were made it easier for the sake of accessibility.

Many bosses and mini-bosses were harder before the accessibility revamp.
Don’t get me wrong accessibility has done great things for the zones and we’re getting more people into the game.
But it has robbed some fun from the challenge found in story bosses.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Wrong. If I know that I will not do something to obtain something, then I know beforehand that this second something is inaccessible to me (as I will not get it). That's like ordering a dish with the supplement you hate. What's the point of wasting money on such order?

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy it and should quit if this gets put in since the game would no longer interest you.

But desire is not accessibility issue. There's a difference between "i don't want to" and "I cannot"

There is a difference in reasons, but there is no difference in the result. The result is the same, the reward is not obtained. Especially keeping in mind that we are not speaking about "player doesn't want to do some quests to get something", but about "player doesn't want to spend weeks or months wasting time on improving himself in combat that is completely not fun in this game".

spartaxoxo

Olauron wrote: »

show previous quotes

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Wrong. If I know that I will not do something to obtain something, then I know beforehand that this second something is inaccessible to me (as I will not get it). That's like ordering a dish with the supplement you hate. What's the point of wasting money on such order?

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy it and should quit if this gets put in since the game would no longer interest you.

But desire is not accessibility issue. There's a difference between "i don't want to" and "I cannot"

There is a difference in reasons, but there is no difference in the result. The result is the same, the reward is not obtained. Especially keeping in mind that we are not speaking about "player doesn't want to do some quests to get something", but about "player doesn't want to spend weeks or months wasting time on improving himself in combat that is completely not fun in this game".

Yes. There is a drastic difference in what undesirable thing is being asked here, which is why casual players have left this game a lot and Zos is changing things to stop rewards from being so skewed towards the top.

But still, it's not an accessibility issue because "cannot do it" is the important part for defining those.

Olauron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

show previous quotes

Olauron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Olauron wrote: »

Linaleah wrote: »

but those rewards would still be there. you will not lose out on them. there will be added rewards, but its not like new rewards are not added all the time and not all of them are obtainable by everything. you lose nothing of currently available stuff.

When I am buying a content, I am paying for all the rewards included in it. The more rewards are inaccessible to me, the less reason to buy the content.

But they aren't unobtainable.

There are rewards that I don't want struggle for to obtain.

so optional but you don't want to do it. That doesn't make them inaccessible.

Wrong. If I know that I will not do something to obtain something, then I know beforehand that this second something is inaccessible to me (as I will not get it). That's like ordering a dish with the supplement you hate. What's the point of wasting money on such order?

I agree with you that you shouldn't buy it and should quit if this gets put in since the game would no longer interest you.

But desire is not accessibility issue. There's a difference between "i don't want to" and "I cannot"

There is a difference in reasons, but there is no difference in the result. The result is the same, the reward is not obtained. Especially keeping in mind that we are not speaking about "player doesn't want to do some quests to get something", but about "player doesn't want to spend weeks or months wasting time on improving himself in combat that is completely not fun in this game".

Yes. There is a drastic difference in what undesirable thing is being asked here, which is why casual players have left this game a lot and Zos is changing things to stop rewards from being so skewed towards the top.

But still, it's not an accessibility issue because "cannot do it" is the important part for defining those.

I will say that way - they are inaccessible for a player (for example, for me) with the current set of skills (player skills, not character skills). For example, for me it is something like vet dlc dungeons and vet trials. Is it possible to increase player skills to make it accessible? No idea. This is not known to the player himself, this is not known for anyone else. Now the player has a choice to train and train and train without knowing whether it will help or not. He may not want to do this training. This is the case when "don't want" becomes "cannot", as in current state he really cannot.
And then there is the second case of "can physically", but "can't force himself mentally". Some activities may be viewed by the player so disgusting, that while physically he can push a button and engage, realistically he can't.

From my point of view, in both cases we can speak about "inaccessibility", as we can use the wider meaning like "can't get now", not the narrower meaning "can't get at all no matter the time and no matter what will do".

Seminolegirl1992

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe wrote: »

show previous quotes

Iccotak wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

@spartaxoxo

The purpose of the proposal being to get story related achievements and cosmetics that new players cannot get?

No it is to make it hard. If your focus is in on new players ability to beat it then it's not hard.

Where did I state anywhere that new players could beat the challenge banner? Just because the rewards would go to everyone doesn't mean the boss kill would be. A challenge banner makes an existing fight harder and does not alter the existing reward structure.

Literally the only difference between the two proposals is rewards and that it wouldn't be repeatable.

That's not how the rest of the game operates. Challenge banners offer better reward. It is not consistent and is a waste of assets.
My idea would add re-playability and better challenge. This way players who completed old stories could go back and experience epic boss fight from story arcs they wished had them (like Morrowind, Summerset, and Elsweyr)

As I said, the only reason to oppose all of your proposed ideas for optional difficulty is selfishness, plain and simple. The only arguments I've seen against your proposal have been from a stand point of "we want what we want, and you can't have what you want because I don't want it or don't want to work for it". Making it so that an entire portion of the player base is invalidated for no reason. What a shame.

Pretty much.

ke.sardenb14_ESO

As someone that has played this game on and off since the beta; as someone that still actively plays both story, dungeons and trials; I think it is fair to want story content to adhere to your experience, just as well as it would for someone that started the game yesterday.

But I also disagree with placing an achievement wall behind the content. All that would do is put a middle finger up to casual players, saying "did you in enjoy this, well once your done being a scrub you can experience the real game." I think scaling to allow everyone to enjoy their experience is the fair and balanced option.

Linaleah

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I am not villanizing anyone by pointing out that no, not everybody can be established players. You keep trying to tell me to be quiet about it, and when I decline and say why, you claim I am making you a villain. I am not.

Don't tell people to be quiet if you don't want them to say "I will not be quiet." It's as simple as that.

dude.. I'm a dirty dirty casual. and I think OP's idea is good. why? BECAUSE ITS NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM US! its adding new options, and hopefully, while adding these challenge options for the more advanced players, it also adds solo options for dungeons for US!. there is not taking anything away. ffs.

Sylvermynx

Lin.... you're fronting people who are probably completionists. That's not going to end well. For anyone.

SilverBride

[snip]

Overland storyline quests aren't supposed to be challenging with big boss fights at the end, but I'm not worried that this will happen.

ZoS isn't going to change the fundamental part of their game, and separate the playerbase with veteran overland levels, [snip]

[Edited to remove Baiting]

spartaxoxo

ke.sardenb14_ESO wrote: »

As someone that has played this game on and off since the beta; as someone that still actively plays both story, dungeons and trials; I think it is fair to want story content to adhere to your experience, just as well as it would for someone that started the game yesterday.

But I also disagree with placing an achievement wall behind the content. All that would do is put a middle finger up to casual players, saying "did you in enjoy this, well once your done being a scrub you can experience the real game." I think scaling to allow everyone to enjoy their experience is the fair and balanced option.

Yeah. Something like a challenge banner also would allow them to also fight the boss at the part of the story where it's supposed to be a challenge too. What better way, for drama and suspense, to have a epic main boss fight than to fight the boss once and for all at the story's dramatic conclusion?