Why even bother with having a PTS

Carbonised · May 2017

Third round of PTS. Devs (or rather, Gina) continues to reply in some threads that "yes, of course we are listening, you just need to be patient".

This is what happens each and every single time. You make some bullcr*p changes on the PTS, then try and calm everyone that it's only a PTS and things will change, then we see 4 cycles of useless, cosmetic PTS changes and the whole shebang goes live with some minor adjustments here and there, just to prove that you did indeed listen.

This week's PTS once again brought nothing to the table. A 10 % damage nerf to a single sorc ability, like that's going to solve jack squat. And nothing for DKs, nothing to make up for sh***ing all over our sustain, leaving us with an empty shell of a class. Nothing for all the people who can no longer participate in content like vMA and vMoL cause we're not part of the pro elite, and might have had a chance of doing that content only before this nerf-gate scandal.

So tell me, how long do I need to be patient? Until all this goes live and it's too late to change a thing? Until we have a new balance PTS patch half a year from now? It's not like we haven't been through this sharade and sham since Thief Guild update (and before that, though that's before my time).

Don't know why I even bother participating in this any more, you might as well just not bother having a PTS in the future seeing as you don't care a thing about the feedback given anyhow.

Akimbro · May 2017

Shhhh not so loud. They might hear you.

aeowulf · May 2017

it's been so disheartening it's actually put me off playing my main (NB) - i was regularly putting in 3 hrs a day on live, but now i've probably only logged not much more than 3 hours total in 2 weeks. The changes haven't even gone live yet...

wimhwimladimf · May 2017

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

lunalitetempler · May 2017

Carbonised wrote: »

Third round of PTS. Devs (or rather, Gina) continues to reply in some threads that "yes, of course we are listening, you just need to be patient".

This is what happens each and every single time. You make some bullcr*p changes on the PTS, then try and calm everyone that it's only a PTS and things will change, then we see 4 cycles of useless, cosmetic PTS changes and the whole shebang goes live with some minor adjustments here and there, just to prove that you did indeed listen.

This week's PTS once again brought nothing to the table. A 10 % damage nerf to a single sorc ability, like that's going to solve jack squat. And nothing for DKs, nothing to make up for sh***ing all over our sustain, leaving us with an empty shell of a class. Nothing for all the people who can no longer participate in content like vMA and vMoL cause we're not part of the pro elite, and might have had a chance of doing that content only before this nerf-gate scandal.

So tell me, how long do I need to be patient? Until all this goes live and it's too late to change a thing? Until we have a new balance PTS patch half a year from now? It's not like we haven't been through this sharade and sham since Thief Guild update (and before that, though that's before my time).

Don't know why I even bother participating in this any more, you might as well just not bother having a PTS in the future seeing as you don't care a thing about the feedback given anyhow.

Stop the whining already, get used to it.

Carbonised · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

Moglijuana · May 2017

Akimbro wrote: »

Shhhh not so loud. They might hear you.

Nah, probably not. They are too busy watching that PTS thread lol. Lots of bombs going off in there XD.

Turelus · May 2017

Once again...

Listening =/= doing what you want.

I can listen to someone tell me to punch myself in the face, doesn't mean I am going to do it.

Kyoma · May 2017

Sigh.....another pleb that doesn't understand a developement cycle and expects his feedback to make ZOS change everything to their wishes....

Carbonised · May 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Once again...

Listening =/= doing what you want.

I can listen to someone tell me to punch myself in the face, doesn't mean I am going to do it.

Except it's not really about what -I- want, so don't try and interpret it as some kind of personal entitlement.

Plenty of people have given pretty much the same form of feedback on the PTS forum, from big time streamers to big time raiders to average people, and for once everyone pretty much seems to be of a similar mind.

Not to mention the fact that this PTS had nothing but cosmetic changes once again. Which is always the case of the PTS, things are pretty much served on the PTS as they go to live a month after, with only a few superficial tweaks beforehand.

So there's no reason for your snarky remarks or your attempt at trying to be clever.

If devs won't listen to anything at all, and keep going in their own direction, what is really the reason for the PTS aside from helping them bugfix PvE content beforehand?

Turelus · May 2017

Kyoma wrote: »

Sigh.....another pleb that doesn't understand a developement cycle and expects his feedback to make ZOS change everything to their wishes....

No, it's perfectly fine that I ask for Impale to be a <75% execute which does 1000% more damage. This is the feedback I have given and if ZOS really listened they would have added it, so they're not listening.

Paraflex · May 2017

Yea I think they are at a point where they don't really care about the topics we post about. They have their own idea of balance and the direction they want to go in.

Sorcs in general will be strong next patch....

Mag sorc great dps
Heavy Stam Sorcs will be the only viable heavy Stam class
Proc sets will be a blast to fight all over in BGs please welcome another round of cancer in your PvP!

Kilandros · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

I DONT WANT TO PLAY A TANK

Durham · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

What .... omg dude please please do not assume that we are talking about tanking bosses...

Try PVP where a DK will get obliterated . ON test they are broken

eso_nya · May 2017

They make changes, and state, that the goal is, to make sustain more difficult, so u cant run pure glasscannon anymore.

There is feedback, that u cant run pure glasscannon anymore, as u have to use heavyattacks and/or sustainset and/or drop dmgglyphs for sustain ones.

In my opinion, this is exactly the feedback they expected and wanted to hear.

wimhwimladimf · May 2017

Carbonised wrote: »

show previous quotes

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

Turelus · May 2017

Carbonised wrote: »

show previous quotes

Turelus wrote: »

Once again...

Listening =/= doing what you want.

I can listen to someone tell me to punch myself in the face, doesn't mean I am going to do it.

Except it's not really about what -I- want, so don't try and interpret it as some kind of personal entitlement.

Plenty of people have given pretty much the same form of feedback on the PTS forum, from big time streamers to big time raiders to average people, and for once everyone pretty much seems to be of a similar mind.

Not to mention the fact that this PTS had nothing but cosmetic changes once again. Which is always the case of the PTS, things are pretty much served on the PTS as they go to live a month after, with only a few superficial tweaks beforehand.

So there's no reason for your snarky remarks or your attempt at trying to be clever.

If devs won't listen to anything at all, and keep going in their own direction, what is really the reason for the PTS aside from helping them bugfix PvE content beforehand?

Most people will not be happy until they entirely reverse the changes, they're not going to do that.

They've already made some changes based in feedback, but if you feedback is "WAAAAA I WANT MY RESOURCES!!!" then no they won't listen, because the entire point of this balance pass was to take them away from you.
What's the point in trying to nerf sustain if they just go and make changes during PTS to make it not a problem.

They're looking and reading feedback, there have been changes based on that feedback but once again, people want THEIR changes not the ones ZOS wants.

peniku8 · May 2017

Don't worry, this was just a smaller patch, the next patch will more (interesting) changes.
Just wait a week and if you don't like these changes either wait for the actual release, nothing is set in stone yet.

Berenhir · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

show previous quotes

Carbonised wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

Because:

"These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them."

wimhwimladimf · May 2017

Berenhir wrote: »

show previous quotes

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

Because:
show previous quotes

"These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them."

Nice "Lore attack" xD too bad it's useful only in RP battles.

HugeMuffin · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

show previous quotes

Berenhir wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

Because:

"These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them."

Nice "Lore attack" xD too bad it's useful only in RP battles.

They're actually going to nerf RP next week. All lore books currently in game will be replaced with books that are complete gibberish unless you have the new level 10 "Decypher" passive from mages guild (replacing and renaming the major empower from might of the guild). Also, on PC, purple text requires stamina to chat in.

Mix · May 2017

Give them some actual data. Whatever class or role you play - compare it in combat on Live vs, PTS and post it. Use the same skills and gear on PTS as Live the first time around to demonstrate the magnitude of changes.

For example:
how long before you run out of your main resource?
what is your dps/healing/damage mitigated at during the fight?

Now, we KNOW that the regeneration and some class skill changes will make the PTS Character look awful; run out of resource quick and much less dps/healing/damage mitigated.

The next step is crucial: Adapt your PTS character to deal with the changes. Change your rotations/skills used and change your gear, get the best setup you can on PTS. Then test again and compare that to your original Live test.

Then you have some actual information to argue with. Keep in mind that until many people do these sorts of tests to accumulate data for each class/role combo you CANNOT just randomly say how much you were nerfed. Sure, say your DPS is 20% lower, but where do all the other damage dealing class/resource combos sit? If the changes "nerf" everyone about the same - then we are brought to the same level.

A good note here for devs is what did you have to do to adapt? When this Update goes Live how bad is that learning curve for the changes going to be. If people race to explore Morrowind without changing anything - are they gonna be OK? are they gonna get stomped the first random veteran dungeon they queue for?

The final playing field left after the changes matters.
The player experience right after the update matters.

Change is inevitable in MMOs. They constantly change. Players must adapt. It is when the effort to adapt becomes so onerous that people have a bad experience with new content that we have to scale back changes.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

show previous quotes

Carbonised wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

not so...first off there is supposed to be a "play how you want" thing going on...so playing a DPS DK should be something that is available, secondly there was a time when magDK's were the single "mostest bestest" in the game at being damage dealers.

if you have been playing the game since the start you would know that raids were always full of magDK's and that a Sorc was only taken to a raid to use their Negate...(of course we also all used Spell Sym back then too and now everyone calls it a useless skill)

Durham · May 2017

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

show previous quotes

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

^ You're overreacting. DK's are still best tanks in the game.

Lmao. Like, do you even PTS? Class specific sustain nerfs, blocking nerfs, heavy armor nerfs.

And did you think for like 2 seconds that some DKs actually want to do something else than tank? Like DPS?

And did you think for like 2 seconds after that, that there is such a thing as PvP as well?

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

not so...first off there is supposed to be a "play how you want" thing going on...so playing a DPS DK should be something that is available, secondly there was a time when magDK's were the single "mostest bestest" in the game at being damage dealers.

if you have been playing the game since the start you would know that raids were always full of magDK's and that a Sorc was only taken to a raid to use their Negate...(of course we also all used Spell Sym back then too and now everyone calls it a useless skill)

PVP NOT PVE......
That is the most broken aspect ...

Carbonised · May 2017

Mix wrote: »

Give them some actual data.

Turelus wrote: »

but if you feedback is "WAAAAA I WANT MY RESOURCES!!!" then no they won't listen

There's these 2 videos from Gilliamtherogue each 45ish mins long going into detail about the issue.

There's the Alcast video, also pretty long and detailed.

Then there's the long, detailed and numerous threads on the PTS forums by some of the communities most knowledgeable raid leaders and theorycrafters.

Somehow I don't think lack of constructive feedback is the issue here at all.

Akimbro · May 2017

Mix wrote: »

Give them some actual data. Whatever class or role you play - compare it in combat on Live vs, PTS and post it. Use the same skills and gear on PTS as Live the first time around to demonstrate the magnitude of changes.

For example:
how long before you run out of your main resource?
what is your dps/healing/damage mitigated at during the fight?

Now, we KNOW that the regeneration and some class skill changes will make the PTS Character look awful; run out of resource quick and much less dps/healing/damage mitigated.

The next step is crucial: Adapt your PTS character to deal with the changes. Change your rotations/skills used and change your gear, get the best setup you can on PTS. Then test again and compare that to your original Live test.

Then you have some actual information to argue with. Keep in mind that until many people do these sorts of tests to accumulate data for each class/role combo you CANNOT just randomly say how much you were nerfed. Sure, say your DPS is 20% lower, but where do all the other damage dealing class/resource combos sit? If the changes "nerf" everyone about the same - then we are brought to the same level.

A good note here for devs is what did you have to do to adapt? When this Update goes Live how bad is that learning curve for the changes going to be. If people race to explore Morrowind without changing anything - are they gonna be OK? are they gonna get stomped the first random veteran dungeon they queue for?

The final playing field left after the changes matters.
The player experience right after the update matters.

Change is inevitable in MMOs. They constantly change. Players must adapt. It is when the effort to adapt becomes so onerous that people have a bad experience with new content that we have to scale back changes.

Dude you're clearly not getting what's going on. There have been tons of posts and videos showing how bad the changes are. And it's more than just a QQ to sustain nerfs. It's how they're changing the combat system in the game, and how they're homogenizing classes and taking away class-defining abilities.

wisej12 · May 2017

The PTS is not for discussing balance changes. It's for us to help them find bugs. The fact that the community has become entitled to having any authority on balance changes was a HUGE slip-up by Zenimax. They should've shut that attitude down the moment it started.

IwakuraLain42 · May 2017

peniku8 wrote: »

Don't worry, this was just a smaller patch, the next patch will more (interesting) changes.
Just wait a week and if you don't like these changes either wait for the actual release, nothing is set in stone yet.

I don't think so, the PTS cycle is slowly coming to an end, there are most likely only 2 more iterations where they can change stuff and if my experience is right then those will only be minor. Unless they really plan to release different versions of Morrowind for PC and Consoles .... well, they did avoid answering *that* question on ESO Live ....

InvitationNotFound · May 2017

I guess it's the same with every PTS. They come up with some weird *** and many things are broken.

There are:
a) people complaining about the *** they've created.
b) some white knights defending every piece of *** they are served by ZOS
c) some people that are still believing PTS and their feedback somehow matters. Obviously, it doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. a) is most likely the only thing that could change anything. b) and c) ... well, not easy to find nice words for those...

The Uninvited · May 2017

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

If you wanted to dps you should've made different class, srly. Why do people expect to be comptitive dps with DK? Sure ESO system allows you to learn different things, but it doesnt mean that everyone will be equally good at it.

Because, before 1.6 we were gods!

Biro123 · May 2017

Many people don't understand the purpose of a test server. I see this in a lot of games.

See I am a software developer. And developing software goes through a process of..:

1. Determine requirements - ie. what do we want to build/change
2. Do the design - ie. How are we going to achieve that - which programs/databases etc. need to change
3. Do the build - ie. changing the code
4. Unit testing - does the code change do as per the design states
5. Systems testing - do all the code changes fit together
6. User/Beta/QA testing - Does the whole thing work as determined by the Requirements (1.)

We are at stage 6. A long way down the development cycle. The aim of this test is to check if the requirements have been met. This means that if the requirement states that Constitution should return 60% less than it used to - is it now returning 60% less than it used to? If it isn't - its a bug. If it is - its working as intended

And that is the key word. Working As Intended - Intended is determined in black and white in the Requirements.

You guys are all asking for the requirements to change - Now don't get me wrong - ZoS probably are listening to the feedback - but changing requirements part way through a project creates a LOT of risk, a LOT of re-work and a LOT of retesting.
The way Requirement changes are generally done is by creating NEW requirements for the next project - which starts at step 1 again.

TLDR;
It will likely be a while till the feedback you are giving now gets to the PTS - and it will probably NOT be in this patch.

It does NOT mean this testing is pointless - AS LONG AS YOU REPORT ANY BUGS/EXPLOITS YOU FIND. Also the early feedback (as opposed to waiting till live) gives them a head start in the next patch wich probably will take some of the comments on-board.