Why even bother with having a PTS

LiquidPony

DHale wrote: »

Well then, challenge accepted can we get the video of any magic DK putting out 50 k dps? Anyone, anyone, is this thing on?

@DHale http://i.imgur.com/9AVLR6i.png

Why wouldn't mag DKs put up 50k DPS? The top mag DK in my guild puts up 41k on the target skeleton self-buffed.

Xvorg

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

@ZOS_GinaBruno , the first answer was even better than this one.

MagDK can put great numbers relying on DoTs. Maybe in PVE that's something great, but in the case of PvP, any DoT build fails for several reasons, especially because of BS.

I do believe that BS is a necessary evil, why I don't get is why some builds/classes must be punished harder than others, being the later the burst builds. Ok Stam DK has access to burst through 2H. MagDK? The only available burst skill in close qusarters is whip and to make it bursty you need to accomplish with a set of conditions: CC, whip proc, 75 points into thaum (that's compulsory due to the exploter passive). Since the class has NO gap closer, you need to look for S/B or 2H (a stam weapon) to get that skill, being S/B rhe best option, since stun. But to be able to use it you need to spread your res pools, making you weaker.

I know we have chains, but chains have NO synergy with our most reliable CC (petrify), because chains give CC immunity (I don't know why), and the most important part, chains are so broken, that is not even worth slotting them. That's the second reson why frost staff is not an option for mDK.

The other option is to slot flame/lit staff and play ranged, but being a class without mobility, the play style becomes clumsy.

Yesterday I tried a hybrid set up, using 2H and whip. It feels less clumsy than destro staff and more bursty than S/B in PvE, but it lacks sustain and fails in the dmg department in PvP. When I played it it felt so natural to me, that I wished we were back on 2014.

But you know, the dmg passive of DK are the worst dmg passives of all the game. While sorcs have a plain 5% extra dmg on phys and lit attacks (even proc sets benefit from that), DKs have a 66% extra dmg on the poison and burn STATUS, which in turn is a DoT... any use for that passive in PvP with BS? No.

There's another passive that increases AoE poison and flame dmg on a 6% , but even that passive is lackluster if you compare it with the 8% extra AoE dmg lit staff gives, and lit staff also gives minor vulnreability, which increases the dmg and extra 8%. So lit staff passive can achieve an extra 16% extra AoE dmg, a 10% more than the DK pasive. And wall of elements is able to set the enemies off balance, increasing the numbers to a 26% extra dmg with the exploiter passive. 20% more dmg than the specific mDK passive. That without any set buffing dmg.

And I've not even considered the poison aoe dmg for the equation. DKs have acces to 2 AoE poison dmg skills and one 200 ulti ultimate, being one of them a weapon skill, and the other a class conic skill, not enough for making a poison AoE. I know undaunted has another poison skill, but it's so bad, that I think no one will ever use it. So, to use that set up, you are forced to run one specific weapon whose strenght come from range, ad pair it with a skill that works at 8mts.

DKs are tired of the promise that any class can be a DPS class, because in PvP is not the DPS what matters, but the burst. No Burst, no reason to go PvP. During the last months, many fellow DKs decided to go full tank, just to have an option at PvP, but instead of encouraging those set ups, you nerfed most of the aspects in them. Then you threw your "tanky" answer, which makes no sense, but can be understood as an easy way out, but now you say mDK can be a great DPS class. But you already said that there are no changes coming for them, locking the door to any chance of having burst potential as the other classes.

So the class is relegated to be a PvE DPS/Tank class. Thanks.

Moloch1514

And crickets from the devs today.

Weps

LiquidPony wrote: »

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DHale wrote: »

Well then, challenge accepted can we get the video of any magic DK putting out 50 k dps? Anyone, anyone, is this thing on?

@DHale http://i.imgur.com/9AVLR6i.png

Why wouldn't mag DKs put up 50k DPS? The top mag DK in my guild puts up 41k on the target skeleton self-buffed.

Woah, 35k crit Whip?
I got to 25k max in PvE!

What's the build?

LiquidPony

Weps wrote: »

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LiquidPony wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Well then, challenge accepted can we get the video of any magic DK putting out 50 k dps? Anyone, anyone, is this thing on?

@DHale http://i.imgur.com/9AVLR6i.png

Why wouldn't mag DKs put up 50k DPS? The top mag DK in my guild puts up 41k on the target skeleton self-buffed.

Woah, 35k crit Whip?
I got to 25k max in PvE!

What's the build?

@Weps that's a standard PvE magDK build for this patch.

5 x BSW, 4 x Moodancer, 2 x Grothdarr, Maelstrom inferno backbar.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/pve-2-3-x-kindling-power-the-salty-version-of-a-magicka-dk/

Sheey

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Magica Dragonknights always struggled against Templars. Not because of Breath of Life, no its because as magica Dragonknight you have to use Damage over Time abilities, these abilities take 3 seconds to apply on templars but they can purge everything away within 1 second.

Templar is broken and defenitely needs to come down with the tankyness given by purifying light.

Damage over Time is NO NEGATIV EFFECT and should NOT BE PURGABLE.

Same problem with Sorcerer, I understand there is no way making Shields critable but it cant be that someone at 10% health has a nearly 100% chance to survive if you don't burst him down instantly.

I am not the one who needs to find solutions, Zenimax needs to find those.

But we can assist as community. 100 of threats are here on this forum, 1000 of solutions to balance the game healthy. You just need to pick them up.

I care less and less about this game, my interests going slowly away and I am a hardcore endgame pvp player. But what I have experienced over the past 3 years its simply this game got worse and worse.

I spent usually 15-18 hours a day to this game, since 6 months its less then 6 hours a week.

And I am not the only one.

MasterSpatula

Moloch1514 wrote: »

And crickets from the devs today.

IMO, crickets are no worse than "We promise, we're listening" while failing to address anyone's points.

Gomumon

Gomumon wrote: »

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ZoM_Head wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Fair points, but the changes you're referencing are minor, cosmetic changes; and the community here, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, game-magazine Forums, Streamers on Twitch and YouTube, etc., are all very unhappy and voicing their well-thought out and numbers-proven concerns over the blanket nerfs you're making to every area of Sustain and Cost Reduction in the game.

But even with the entire internet blowing up with discontent over your proposed changes; all we get is that you're going to steam on ahead regardless of the legions of players who are not happy with these changes in any way?

This is not an "I quit" post. But the changes you guys are powering on with have really and seriously decreased my desire to log in to your game each night.

I usually log in for 2-4 hours every night, which is 14-28 hours per week. Since these changes are steaming ahead and you're blatantly ignoring feedback that doesn't agree with the massive, core-mechanics changes that you're forcing on a player base that doesn't want them, I've only logged in to the Live server for a total of around 4 hours in the last two weeks.

Is that your goal? Because that's what it's done to me, and according to... pretty much everywhere I go in the internet, that's what it's doing to a lot of players as well.

We don't care that you guys at ZOS think these changes are "what's best for the game". We're testing your content, your changes, and WE'RE giving you numbers, experiences, and evidence that proves that your ideas ARE NOT what's "best for the game". In fact, what we're finding is; your proposed changes are highly detrimental to the game.

But as you illustrated so eloquently in your post, you (as an entire company) aren't actually listening, nor do you care.

These PTS servers and Forums are a placebo. There to make us think that our opinions, numbers, videos, and evidence have weight with your developers; when in fact that have no weight at all.

So you tell me, Gina. With these changes destroying three out of five classes and (despite what you guys say about wanting "fast-paced combat") greatly slowing combat and player potency dropping into the gutter, what is there that should tempt me to log-in more than the minuscule four (4) hours a week that I've dropped to since 3.0 arrived her on the PTS?

You're taking three years worth of work, building up characters I love and am very happy playing, and you're flushing it with these changes. Three years building up my characters, just to have them become VASTLY weaker (and nigh unplayable) with the Morrowind patch.

Aside from the pathetic cosmetic changes that do nothing to fix the abortive issues to player strength that these patches are doing, what are you guys doing to actually "listen" to us?

Because with the gaming internet in the state that it's in over your changes; do you think the line of "it may not be what you want, but nerfing your characters into the ground is what we feel is best", do you really think that's going to go over well with the players once this goes live?

Because the Streamers that you value so highly are already spreading the word that these changes are atrocious. And thier fans/followers? They listen, whereas you (as a company) obviously are not.

As aggressive as what the OP said, i must agree with this. I used to put 8+ hours daily in this game (my main magicka DK has well over 4,000 hours), but since the release of the PTS and its current direction, i log in grab hirelings and log off, i do not even bother with crafting dailies, i even cancelled my morrowind collector's edition pre-order. I alone may not make a difference in the game to you, but there is nothing i can further do from my end. I gave you my opinions, numerous times since the Imperial City patch, and it has been downhill for my main character (magicka DK) since then. I have been loyal since beta, subscriber since day 1 till today, morrowind is seriously making me regret everything i have done.

No, I agree. I subscribed to ESO Plus 180 days at a time and pre-ordered Morrowind myself. I was playing 20 hrs a week. Ever since the first round of PTS this patch, I lost almost all motivation to continue putting time and energy into something that could all be for nigh at the whim of the devs. I can give my feedback, but I can't pretend that I know how to develop a game better than they do. However, that doesn't mean that I need to keep subscribing to it.

As many have said, it seems like, after three years, they're still unsure of what direction they wanna take this game in, who they're catering to (new customers or veteran subscribers), or how to balance 4 classes, 3 roles, and 2 metagames then adding a 5th class to the mix. I am not entitled to tell them what to do with their game, but I am entitled to my money. I have lost faith in ZOS and, while I still hope that this game will remain fun, I do not feel confident moving forward in continuing to give them large lump sums of money on a regular basis or buy new content.

Thus, it seems that for people like us, the only solution is to cancel our pre-orders and Plus subscriptions, as they likely won't implement any changes before this goes live that we'll be happy with.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

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Nolic1 wrote: »

I would like to point out only about 5% to !0% of the player base even checks in on the forums and this has been said by many dev's sense the days of old. I would also like to point out that @ZOS_GinaBruno Comment is being taken way out of context when it comes to DK tanking she is meaning that DK tanks are still just as viable as always but of course its getting bypassed by the many naysayers here.

Again these changes are needed to put the game into a more balanced play where all classes can be any role and be viable and not any one class is best in any but have small advantages for certain roles. Plus this might be a MMO but its not WoW and not EQ2 or any other mmo its ESO so remember that to please.

So, because "this is ESO"; we're supposed to be fine with homogenized, cookie-cutter builds and Classes, and a leveling system where there's almost no noticeable difference between having 630CP and having 63CP?

If I wanted to feel like I'm the same power level at end-game as someone who just started... Hell, why even have levels at all? Why not just make ESO like Halo where there are no levels, everyone is the same "power" and just let them romp all over with zero progression whatsoever.

The whole and core purpose of an MMORPG is to build a character, have them grow powerful, and defeat the "great evils" that infect whatever game world you're running around in. An MMORPG with zero progression at end game and homogenized, "every Class can do the same stuff as every other Class, so picking a Class doesn't really mean anything" just sounds boring as hell.

I've thought the same thing. This should be branded as an adventure game and have the levels and classes removed at this point. The differences between players in here are as minuscule as a loadout in Halo 5. Definitely doesn't feel like something worth spending 100+ hours leveling in terms of strength. Everyone might as well use 150 craft sets and stop leveling at CP 300.

Jamascus

wisej12 wrote: »

The PTS is not for discussing balance changes. It's for us to help them find bugs. The fact that the community has become entitled to having any authority on balance changes was a HUGE slip-up by Zenimax. They should've shut that attitude down the moment it started.

I don't give a *** what zos wants their game to be. They've clearly shown they're out of touch with how their game actually plays and what skills people actually use. Why would we sit idly by and let them wreck it...of course they should be listening to us. If baskin robbins came out with a turd flavored ice cream and everyone told them it tasted terrible and they didn't sell any, they would stop offering it, not just keep shoveling it out there and telling people to eat it because it fits their vision for an ice cream flavor.

STEVIL

Jamascus wrote: »

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wisej12 wrote: »

The PTS is not for discussing balance changes. It's for us to help them find bugs. The fact that the community has become entitled to having any authority on balance changes was a HUGE slip-up by Zenimax. They should've shut that attitude down the moment it started.

I don't give a *** what zos wants their game to be. They've clearly shown they're out of touch with how their game actually plays and what skills people actually use. Why would we sit idly by and let them wreck it...of course they should be listening to us. If baskin robbins came out with a turd flavored ice cream and everyone told them it tasted terrible and they didn't sell any, they would stop offering it, not just keep shoveling it out there and telling people to eat it because it fits their vision for an ice cream flavor.

Again a reality check
forums posters are not everyone.
streamers are not everyone

Any comments about how if " everyone told them" and focuses on those populations is misinformed or misleading.

Like baskin robbins, ZOS does have actual figures on customer preferences and uses.

and of course, even among this selected narrow slice of players, not everyone is telling them the same thing. there is a marked difference between the commentary and feel on this forum and the closed pts... but do not take that as in anyway painting it as all rainbows over there.

but in general trend i see is this - the less informed the forum is,about the specific changes in play - the more they rage against this transition.*

Which is not at all unlike most every previous pts i have seen here.

*Which in no way is saying anyone or everyone opposed to any specific change is uninformed or less informed. Please say "google define trend" before jerking that knee please.

Thavie

Kyoma wrote: »

Sigh.....another pleb that doesn't understand a developement cycle and expects his feedback to make ZOS change everything to their wishes....

Hey, pleb, I have something to tell ya! Maybe people don't understand how development works, but they do know, that since closed beta testing of ESO as a whole, before the actual release, there was pretty much the same situation: people came to help, they tested, they left a ton of feedback, and turned out it didn't change anything. Anything at all. All the work those people done was gone without any impact at all.
In reality ZOS don't need your feedback, they need you to find the most annoying bugs, because they don't have enough testers to do that by themselves. Simple as that.

Elsonso

Thavie wrote: »

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Kyoma wrote: »

Sigh.....another pleb that doesn't understand a developement cycle and expects his feedback to make ZOS change everything to their wishes....

Hey, pleb, I have something to tell ya! Maybe people don't understand how development works, but they do know, that since closed beta testing of ESO as a whole, before the actual release, there was pretty much the same situation: people came to help, they tested, they left a ton of feedback, and turned out it didn't change anything. Anything at all. All the work those people done was gone without any impact at all.

This makes PTS a great opportunity to learn how a game studio can use players as part of the development process. Each studio is going to do it differently, but they all have the same goals, to put content in front of players in time to evaluate the need for changes before release.

Two months before release is enough for some changes, but there are limits to what they can do. Keep in mind that things are not done 2 months before release. They have their own list of things to do before release, in addition to anything coming from players. Even without PTS, they would be working until the last second on that list.

With that in mind, be aware that it is entirely possible that feedback from players, if done by the studio, may cause other work they had planned to do before release to not get done. Even suggestions that they like have to be compared to the work they all ready have in plan to see when, or if, they will do it. Each one they do might displace a bug fix or completion of a feature.

It is also worth mentioning that it is reasonable to expect that it will take 2 or 3 weeks, or more, from the time they hear an idea coming from PTS to that idea being put on PTS. The more work involved, the longer it will take. Only the most simple, their definition of simple, not the player's2, ideas can be turned around in a week.

In reality, ZOS does need our feedback. It is the only reason they are doing PTS. They are so desperate for this feedback, they crafted an NDA process just for it. There are just limits to what they can do in the time left.

STEVIL

Thavie wrote: »

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Kyoma wrote: »

Sigh.....another pleb that doesn't understand a developement cycle and expects his feedback to make ZOS change everything to their wishes....

Hey, pleb, I have something to tell ya! Maybe people don't understand how development works, but they do know, that since closed beta testing of ESO as a whole, before the actual release, there was pretty much the same situation: people came to help, they tested, they left a ton of feedback, and turned out it didn't change anything. Anything at all. All the work those people done was gone without any impact at all.
In reality ZOS don't need your feedback, they need you to find the most annoying bugs, because they don't have enough testers to do that by themselves. Simple as that.

altfacts

Every single pts has shown changes made based on or in keeping with pts feedback.

Not changing everything sone folks didnt like is not the same as not changing anything anybody didnt like.

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Since I still have no clarity I think I'll post again until I get clarity

Just want to understand the development design behind causing 2 dk's to fight over Ingeous shield if grouped together and 2 Templars to fight over repentance when grouped together.

Should we duel each other to see which person gets to use the skill? (Not being snarky, but literally will need to decide who gets to use/how close we are allowed to be to each other, like 2 dk's that use ingneous shield can't be on the same stairwell for a keep defense)

As well as the heavy resto attack, grants major mending, drops off during remembrance, practiced incantation, and panacea. Is this intended? This shouldn't be a difficult question, it can have a yes or no response. Currently it feels very clunky to execute a heavy, cast practiced incantation, and not get the full benefit of the major mending for the 6 seconds of practiced incantation like when it was just included in the Templar passive. Part of me feels this design is unintended.

ZoM_Head

LiquidPony wrote: »

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DHale wrote: »

Well then, challenge accepted can we get the video of any magic DK putting out 50 k dps? Anyone, anyone, is this thing on?

@DHale http://i.imgur.com/9AVLR6i.png

Why wouldn't mag DKs put up 50k DPS? The top mag DK in my guild puts up 41k on the target skeleton self-buffed.

PvE with this update skills costs so much its very silly, combined with the nerf to battleroar and the several nerfed banner (that costs 250 ulti, try building that with a mDK) is the real issue with PvE. And that mind you is on 1st boss vHRC, meaning stand absolutely still and follow the rotation, no mechanics/movements is required there. Other classes can get consistent numbers on 95% of the trail bosses without issues, the mDK can, but there are a few bosses that seriously cause dps drops in mDks.

PvP DOTs from the magicka DK are garbage, they do not pose any threat whatsoever. A simple stamina build with 1 rendering slashes will cause more pressure with the bleed effect than a mDK with engulfing flames and burning embers. Its the serious lack of burst that Cyrodiil is heavily based on. On top of which no gap closers, no executes (not even a passive that makes DOTs deal more dmg to low health targets), the lack of ranged abilities, super expensive skills, buggy reflective scales (where as the 1H and shield ulti can reflect everything for 6 seconds) and the list goes on. To add the horrible update to igneous shields, i mean in cyrodiil its a 4K shield....4K....ALL spammable abilities from other classes will 1 shot this shield, this removing major mending...might as well as just lock out the DK class until you figure out what zenimax wants to do, because this is really really just adding more inexcusable nerfs to an already seriously outperformed class.

The mDK meta since imperial city is go vampire, talons, whip, petrify, repeat. Maybe burning embers just for the sakes of a burst heal, if outnumbers, mist form the *** around objects and repeat. Where is the pressure? where are the DOTs? How is this supposed to balance out ranged DDs that spam force pulse/crushing shock and can not be reflected? where is the gap closer? All 3 other classes have access to 1 gap closer, an execute and a ranged ability at the very least, the mDK in the current state of buggy abilities, expensive costs and a almost must have to be vampire have been left in this horrible state for nearly 2 years.

The only thing Zenimax has done in terms of buffs, is to keep screwing around with stone fist (which can be absorbed or reflected) and undodgeable chains (which nightblades still dodge by going into stealth mind you). And both abilities cost well over 3.2K magicka at the moment.

The worst place for a magicka DK in PvE is 1st boss vAA (running around spamming force pulse doing rubbish damage when mechanics must be met), 1st boss vMOL when cleansing and dots run out, and vMSA (mDK spamming force pulse, your basically playing a super weak sorcerer in there).

Jamascus

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Then why do we have class specific healing lines for 2 classes, now?

DemonNinja

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

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tinbromide wrote: »

Group Finder fixes?

Can you guys take a week off of nerfing my toons and fix the group finder?

We've made some fixes on the backend that should've made the Group Finder issues better on the PTS. Have you tried it out there versus what's currently on Live?

Hey, look more patch notes not included in the patch notes.... seriously @ZOS_GinaBruno

PATCH NOTES SHOULD ENCOMPASS ALL PLAYER FACING CHANGES TO THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!

Why is this so hard for the development team to understand? How do you expect people on PTS to accurately test features we don't know received updates to when they are not included in the patch notes?

sebban

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

I don't see you working hard towards this goal. I really don't. DKs are and will still be the top tank. Sorcs are and will still be the top DD.

The only "balancing" you've done so far is nerfing everyone's sustain into the ground. You need to do some SERIOUS balancing still. The 3.0.2 notes were a joke.

DemonNinja

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Le sigh.

Xvorg

They should give mDK a passive in which he turns a main stam weapon bar into a mag weapon and doing 50% flame dmg. The name of that passive could be "Molten Weapons"

STEVIL

Jamascus wrote: »

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Then why do we have class specific healing lines for 2 classes, now?

As opposed to none or one or all four or what?

Nothing in her response at all contradicts or questions the idea that you can have two classes with stronger healing skill lines.

Again, as they have said more than once - having every class be able to do a role is not precluding classes being better at a given role than another class is or than they are at other roles.

"able to perform as" is not the same as "perform equally as" in any language on this planet i know.

Admittedly, english is my second language (after southern) but point still holds.

STEVIL

DemonNinja wrote: »

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ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

tinbromide wrote: »

Group Finder fixes?

Can you guys take a week off of nerfing my toons and fix the group finder?

We've made some fixes on the backend that should've made the Group Finder issues better on the PTS. Have you tried it out there versus what's currently on Live?

Hey, look more patch notes not included in the patch notes.... seriously @ZOS_GinaBruno

PATCH NOTES SHOULD ENCOMPASS ALL PLAYER FACING CHANGES TO THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!

Why is this so hard for the development team to understand? How do you expect people on PTS to accurately test features we don't know received updates to when they are not included in the patch notes?

no they should not.
Notes are notes, summaries, not complete encyclopedic volumes.

When someone "takes note" that does not mean everything mentioned is captured verbatim and in its entirety - just the high spots.

i dont know of any software interim release where the minimum goal with patch notes was "capture everything".

Gandrhulf_Harbard

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere).

Most of the feedback has been about just has untenable the current Sustain situation is; and you (as a company) have ignored every last comment on that.

I am glad you think that ignoring the most significant in terms of size, and most important in terms of impact feedback is worthy of nothing more than a badly contrived joke.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Well, unless you have seriously considered sacking Mr Wrobel you are still only considering the WRONG solutions.

All The Best

Gandrhulf_Harbard

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

So the official position now is that you are in fact homogenising the classes, despite assurances that you had no intention of doing so.

All The Best

Hamburglarjones

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Hi Gina,

As an endgame magDK PvE player I would like to clarify something that is quite worrying.

It is true that magDKs next patch will be able to put out similar, if not improved numbers than before but, this requires a vMA sharpened lightning staff. Effectively without this item the whole class is at a really unreliable point. I find it quite unfair that these changes put the class's viability behind a certain item which has ridiculously high standards to obtain. I have been doing vMA since we weren't guaranteed weapons and I still haven't obtained a staff. Running vMA for 45 minutes for a minuscule chance at the item you need is just unreasonable, but now my character will be obsolete without it (from an endgame perspective).

I hope there is some way you guys can do something for those of us who aren't lucky enough to obtain a vMA staff, otherwise it looks like I will have to stop playing magDK entirely, which I really would prefer not to.

Thank you for listening,
Boone.

Onefrkncrzypope

Hamburglarjones wrote: »

show previous quotes

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Hi Gina,

As an endgame magDK PvE player I would like to clarify something that is quite worrying.

It is true that magDKs next patch will be able to put out similar, if not improved numbers than before but, this requires a vMA sharpened lightning staff. Effectively without this item the whole class is at a really unreliable point. I find it quite unfair that these changes put the class's viability behind a certain item which has ridiculously high standards to obtain. I have been doing vMA since we weren't guaranteed weapons and I still haven't obtained a staff. Running vMA for 45 minutes for a minuscule chance at the item you need is just unreasonable, but now my character will be obsolete without it (from an endgame perspective).

I hope there is some way you guys can do something for those of us who aren't lucky enough to obtain a vMA staff, otherwise it looks like I will have to stop playing magDK entirely, which I really would prefer not to.

Thank you for listening,
Boone.

Yeah that would be ridiculous. Having a class rely on vMA weapons is unreasonable... *cough* Stam... But yeah it sucks

TARAFRAKA

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TARAFRAKA

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Arbitrator

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Except the toolkit available to Templars is merely for "survival", not "tanking." To tank in this game, Tanks really need to be able to control enemies that are attacking our allies and as a Templar, we are the only class that can not do that effectively. Templars shouldn't have to put on a staff just to be able to use an AoE CC. It's not fun and hopefully you can understand that.

Survival is part of being a tank. We are meant to take a beating, but Tanking in itself is about protecting teammates and controlling the battlefield. Not a single one of the Templars skill lines is designed around tanking. I would ask that you and the team just take a look at reworking the Templars skill lines.

Aedric Spear could be renamed Aedric Guardian and make it into the tanking tree. Then Dawns Wrath would be Damage focused, and Restoring Light could stick to healing.

aeowulf

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

I'm even more confused The changes to siphoning attacks have actually reduced the ability for a NB to tank by a significant margin, and considering they were not in a great tanking place anyway, I struggle to see the reasoning why.

So as a NB sap tank, I can buff up, drop a path and run in to a bunch of mobs with expedition from path. I can drop sap essence and this might get the attention of a couple of mobs, briefly. I need to run round and gether up additional mobs whilst keeping the attention of the original mobs, and this is currently done by spamming sap esence. I tried vet CoA2 without the sap spam and the trash peels off & decimates my group members rapidly. This skill is only viable when there are at least 3 or 4 mobs as the resource return from siphoning attacks helps to cover it's cost.

The lack of stamina return when blocking has also been completely removed from only the NB tank. A DK can regain stamina from helping hands and battle roar whilst blocking, and a warden can from their netch whilst blocking. Just like the DK, we had to cast something, and we had a 10% chance of getting 2k+ magicka & stamina. They had a 100% chance of getting say 1200 stamina back from a pool of 30k stamina. They were reduce to 100% chance of getting 990, NB's just had this section of the skill completely removed and the melee attack portion reduced by what felt like 90%

I guess i'm struggling to see how the changes to siphoning attacks assist NB's play tank which is part of the overall goal according to the above? They are not the meta, and you will not find them heading up vet trials, but you did not find them complaining either as they were at least fun to play. ZoS are now essentially removing their ability to perform this role with the proposed changes, and certainly removing the fun from the class. Unfortuntely not blocking is not an option in this game, healers are given heart attacks by tanks that don't block. Ever grouped with one? Groups drum it into prospective tanks with rude comments by the time they get to about lvl 30.

The second rendition of the change at least restores enough stamina or magicka to cast it again but it in no way at all helps a NB tank. The changes to this skill remove the few remaining NB tanks from the game. The skill needs to return both resources and needs to return them on any damage, (including DOTS) not just weapon attacks. I don't even mind if you leave the 'damage reduced' portion from the original leeching.