Why even bother with having a PTS

ZOS_GinaBruno

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

arasysb14_ESO

Last summer there were lots of posts about sorcerer nerfs, back then the only explanation we were given for 50+ pages long discussion was something like: "crit tank sorcerers are awesome" by Wrobel, and we were all like "say wut?"


Gina's response somewhat reminded me of this, really showing a disconnection between playerbase and ZOS. We really gave feedback, especially for Morrowind, but you guys simply dont know what to do or only use PTS to gage your crown store demand for the next quarter.

ESO has been the only game I have been playing since its prelaunch, now I dont even want to log on because:

You think nerfs are the only way to change things, as a sorcerer I dont want a single class to get nerfed to the ground and forcefully pigeonhole classes in a boring direction in one freaking Elder Scrolls game.

You assume by quarterly nerfing half of the classes and keeping one class obviously stronger will keep people interested because of your lack of creativity.

You think you can constantly sugar coat everything while you have been contradicting yourself over and over again while shamelessly pushing crown store's limits by each passing quarter.

The game had decently fluid combat system, you even managed to break that while you are saying "we do whats best for long term". It's as convincing as some suicidal guy with a gun in his hand saying "I look forward to next amazing 50 years ahead of me, yay" how convincing is that?

Pops_ND_Irish

Not all customers

Pops_ND_Irish

Well Gina responded
Lets wait, not very long, for the flamers to discredit it

Takis1979

To the devs

I play Dk 2.5 years, from the golden age of non stop banners until today. Its my favorite class ( i tried them all). I tested it on pts. Well at least with the way i play and the player skills i have (which i consider average) and i do not like it anymore. I can not block, i can not do decent (dot) damage, basically it feels like i do not want to waste my time anymore playing DK.

I have pre-ordered Morrowind and i ll give a serious try the new class, but ... from what i have seen from the spells , it does not fit my play style, i really do not like to run around and do flower spells .

You see some of us really like our classes and get attached to it, we might make something else but a certain class is our base (our main character).

I really feel disappointed and i concider leaving the game

Calandrae

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

While it should be the other way around completely. If there was more transparent and informative communication, there wouldn't be outbursts and backlash like this all the time.

Pops_ND_Irish

Didnt take long

MaxwellC

@ZOS_GinaBruno

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

The confusion cleared up is great and I appreciate that but why haven't you mentioned Stamina DK and with these changes sustain for Mag DK just got even worse. The entire PTS notes for these changes regarding battle roar, helping hands,etc have been extremely lack-luster; stating "If your resources are above this threshold it will be a nerf but if below, it will be a buff". That type of explanation for something that greatly affects a lot of us DKs more so Stamina is a nice smack in the face.

If whoever makes these decisions (quite sure it isn't wrobel alone but he's my fav punch bag in a good way), provided a detailed explanation as what you guys from ZoS always expect from us. Then I wouldn't even be mad nor would a majority of the players talking about it. We have great tools that's fine but when you trickle them down every other patch, without anything in exchange; you start to feel that resentment towards whoever is in charge of balancing build up.

Joy_Division

Weps wrote: »

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Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

I don't get it, really.
It feels like kindergarten.

Yes, maybe someone's answer were a little bit above the line but it's understandable considering the implications of such statement. All we're asking is an answer and more clarity regarding that statement.
If a company like this cannot withstand 10 posts made by upset people, then we really have a problem.

Can we just have a discussion with this company? Can we at least get a little bit of clarity regarding the future of this class?
Nobody's asking to go to trial for that, nobody's asking to give us a symposium regarding the Dynamic Forces.
It seems like the class has been blatantly ignored for a while or nerfed badly in key aspects.
Wouldn't be the first time if a part of the player base gets some real and clear answers.

And that statement, is just honest.
No real feedback. Not really clear. Just like the comments.
"We nerfed this because it was overperforming".
Yeah, thank you for stating the obvious.

I don't think it's that hard to understand.

ZoS, like most institutions, generally do not want to make unequivocal comments about what they have planned because people will interpret those plans as something akin to a promise. Rich explicitly mentioned this on the last ESO Live. It leads to more long-term frustration when those ideas can't come to fruition than the short-term satisfaction some players may console themselves. Quite frankly, after the CP launch fiasco when ZoS did not count of XP gains after VR14 when they said they would, quite frankly I am surprised they even hint at what's in plan for the future.

In short, don't plan on hearing anything about what ZoS plans for DKs.

ZoS also believes the Dragonskight is a competitive option. You might not sure that assessment, but one look at PvE end-game tanking, PvE end-game DPS, and stam PvP and it becomes indisputable that this class has multiple instances where it is very strong and arguably the top dog. You might not share that assessment, but it's crazy to say ZoS is wrong for believing DKs are both strong and competitive.

In short, in their mind there is a conversation and they have made changes that have made the DK strong.

Now, none of this means I agree with them. Because I don't. I once played my mDK often in cyrodiil and now I don't because it's a sad soulless husk of what it once was. But just because you, I, and some mDK PvPers who would like to do something more than tape down our right mouse buttons are agree the DK needs help, does not make it true, a fact, or an opinion that ZoS has to adhere to. As much as I think they are wrong, until the state of DKS adversely effect their bottom-line or they feel the chatter about DKs on social media negatively impacts ESO's reputation, ZoS will not make it a priority to change the class.

A dedicated mDK PvPer is such a tiny part of the ZoS community that they are not going to see more than token changes until at some point in the future if and when ZoS decides to make a fundamental adjustment to the CP system and the changes in the base combat mechanics that came with the 1.6 patch.

It short it sucks, but it is what it is.

Weps

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

No problem, clarity is what we were asking about both the statement AND the future of the class.
In the upcoming patch or future patches.

Now that you've thankfully put an end to the confusion that generated from a simple misunderstanding, can we move along towards point 2 of the conversation which is about little more dialogue with the player base regarding the future or your intention with the class?

DKs won't be getting many more changes. Ok. Is this about both declination? Magicka and Stamina?
If you're really paying attention to our feedbacks and concerns, could you please ask the dev to interact with us to see if there's a way to aid Magicka Dk's sustain and damage in order to make it a playable and enjoyable class once again?
Because, as you can clearly read from previous posts, people are becoming increasingly frustrated and disappointed by the treatment given to the class.

Last but not least, DPS parses on skeletons are not a great way to determine overrall balancing changes.
The problem with the DK is that its DPS is heavily influenced by DoTs who are effectively only in one side of the game while a simple cleanse in PvP will make a Magicka DK pretty much useless.

Could we, at least, understand what's your vision regarding how the class is supposed to sustain and / or burst down an opponent?

Thanks

MasterSpatula

Gina, I can say (for myself at least) that attempts to reassure without actually addressing the salient points just have the opposite effect.

Because while my MagSorc's sustain in the Live game is currently fine, my StamBlade's sustain is lousy. When I heard you were nerfing sustain, I thought it was a Jester's Festival joke or something. The idea that my StamBlade's sustain was too good was patently absurd. Other players I encounter in guild chat and in pickup groups have similar problems. You guys are moving forward with a blanker nerf to sustain based on the premise that sustain is too strong. Your premise, in which you will not even address the possibility of a flaw is, in my opinion, false.

Prove me wrong. Have the argument. I'd love for you to admit I'm right or even that I may have a point. If that can't happen, then prove me wrong. Use facts. Defend your position. Prove that your position is defensible.

But don't tell us you're listening to us then pretend those people arguing that your premise is flawed or false didn't actually say anything.

And if you can't even address that issue, then please don't tell me you're listening. You saying it under those circumstances actually only makes it seem less true.

Dyride

So what about Repentance?

NBrookus

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

Then please listen to the PTS testers who are those same mDKs pulling off great things on live when they tell you the class is broken on PTS for PvP. It was already hampered by atrocious sustain, terrible dots, no execute and expensive skills, and the gap between DK and other classes is even greater now than it was.

Preyfar

Weps wrote: »

The problem with the DK is that its DPS is heavily influenced by DoTs who are effectively only in one side of the game while a simple cleanse in PvP will make a Magicka DK pretty much useless.

Maelstrom weapons made the StamDK what it was, but with the new changes, I don't see StamDK being viable. I already have trouble sustaining on live as a StamDK, and on PTS it was dramatically worse. I just don't see how a StamDK can be a really good group contributor for most people. Yeah, you're always going to have those few who rise above, but as it is, it's pretty bad.

HugeMuffin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update.

Can we get a comment about sap tanks then? Because right now, with the severe nerf to siphoning, your statement for nightblades only applies if you insert a strategic "poorly" in there. They are now bottom shelf magdps, bottom shelf stamdps, and have nothing to recommend them as a tank anymore. Sure they can tank (i tried on PTS), but the only difference is that after morrowind, instead of being the 4th worst stamtank, they are now the 5th worst stamtank.

Nolic1

Again I want to say many here think they do not listen but in truth there more players in the game then come to the forums and complain about these changes if there where then then forums would be shut down do to traffic most likely. But as many of you can see its seems to be only around 100 or more people complaining compared to the numbers the dev's have given in player base its not even a quarter of its player base so yeah there is more then what you think not posting.

But in truth I will say as a long time player I never came to the forums till about 9 months or so ago and I have been here sense unlimited more full time them from launch. So to me these changes are much needed even though it seems many here are not testing the changes as many of have. I can say alot of the changes are not near as bad as many are making them out to be.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

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Nolic1 wrote: »

I would like to point out only about 5% to !0% of the player base even checks in on the forums and this has been said by many dev's sense the days of old. I would also like to point out that @ZOS_GinaBruno Comment is being taken way out of context when it comes to DK tanking she is meaning that DK tanks are still just as viable as always but of course its getting bypassed by the many naysayers here.

Again these changes are needed to put the game into a more balanced play where all classes can be any role and be viable and not any one class is best in any but have small advantages for certain roles. Plus this might be a MMO but its not WoW and not EQ2 or any other mmo its ESO so remember that to please.

So, because "this is ESO"; we're supposed to be fine with homogenized, cookie-cutter builds and Classes, and a leveling system where there's almost no noticeable difference between having 630CP and having 63CP?

If I wanted to feel like I'm the same power level at end-game as someone who just started... Hell, why even have levels at all? Why not just make ESO like Halo where there are no levels, everyone is the same "power" and just let them romp all over with zero progression whatsoever.

The whole and core purpose of an MMORPG is to build a character, have them grow powerful, and defeat the "great evils" that infect whatever game world you're running around in. An MMORPG with zero progression at end game and homogenized, "every Class can do the same stuff as every other Class, so picking a Class doesn't really mean anything" just sounds boring as hell.

I've been thinking a lot about this during this whole patch notes debacle. What I've concluded is that a horizontal progression system just isn't good for an MMO. You need level cap increases, and you need power creep, for both the fantasy / RP reasons you've suggested and the more practical ones I've illustrated in other posts.

Without a level cap increase, you run into the issue we're finding ourselves at now, where suddenly a big nerf hits and we struggle with existing content because it was tuned around a meta that doesn't exist anymore. We'll never "out-power" or "out-level" it like we would in other MMOs, so casuals literally have no chance at ever completing it. Ever. Based on how much I seem to stink at combat in this game, I may never either, but I digress.

Granted I've only been playing for a few months, but I really like many of the aspects of this game, and I love that it builds off of Elder Scrolls Lore. That being said, these changes feel like a great leap in the wrong direction, and the lack of feedback is familiar to me as someone who just left his old MMO primarily due to poor development decisions and seemingly out-of-touch devs.

Berenhir

Thank you very much for being able to test out your great changes on PTS before they went live.

I was able to unsub before you could charge me another 45 bucks and then happily take a huge dump on my main class.

Calindel

At what point does the company realize that 85% of their player base has not even completed VMA, Vet Cradle of shadows, or Vet RoM. As an company you can not base all your decisions around the feedback of 1% of your player base who spend 23 hours a day playing and live streaming your game. They need to actually play the game with real players, I challenge the devs to log into the NA server and use the LFG tool for a dungeon, then im ok with any changes they want to make. Creating content around Fengrush or Deltia or Hodor's opinions is absolutely insane for the majority of the people that actually play this game.

VoidBiscuit

Berenhir wrote: »

Thank you very much for being able to test out your great changes on PTS before they went live.

I was able to unsub before you could charge me another 45 bucks and then happily take a huge dump on my main class.

Looooooooooooooool

Avran_Sylt

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

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Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

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tinbromide wrote: »

Group Finder fixes?

Can you guys take a week off of nerfing my toons and fix the group finder?

We've made some fixes on the backend that should've made the Group Finder issues better on the PTS. Have you tried it out there versus what's currently on Live?

@ZOS_GinaBruno

You mention that you performed some fixes on the backend for the Group Finder Issues.

What I can find on the Patch Notes reference Alliance War Activity Finder no longer being restricted by the 15 minute cooldown you get after using the Dungeon Finder (v3.0.0), and Fixing an issue with the Dungeon Finder Ready Check where group roles would not display (v.3.0.1), and nothing about it on the v3.0.2 patch notes.

Are these the backend fixes which you're referring to? Or were those changes you refer to performed this week? Or were the backend changes you refer to considered too minimal or uncertain to include them in previous patch notes?

UrbanMonk

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

AFTER TAKING AWAY MAJOUR MENDING?

Preyfar

Calindel wrote: »

At what point does the company realize that 85% of their player base has not even completed VMA, Vet Cradle of shadows, or Vet RoM. As an company you can not base all your decisions around the feedback of 1% of your player base who spend 23 hours a day playing and live streaming your game.

That 1% are usually those who make YouTube videos, promote the game, discuss builds, and basically do a lot of advertising for the game. They're the content creators who push social media and more, so their voices are going to be heard quite a bit more.

These are the hardcore people who figure out builds, how to work around problems and go to task on the hard content. And even they're going "Uhm, we have a bit of a problem here."

Calindel wrote: »

They need to actually play the game with real players, I challenge the devs to log into the NA server and use the LFG tool for a dungeon, then im ok with any changes they want to make. Creating content around Fengrush or Deltia or Hodor's opinions is absolutely insane for the majority of the people that actually play this game.

Average players aren't on PTS. The average player, the majority of ESO's playerbase, doesn't have game time available to them to play on PTS. Some may, but I imagine the majority spend their free time playing Live than PTS so they can actually make progress, level, not lose everything when the servers wipe. This greatly reduces the chances of getting a completely subjective opinion from the ZOS' core group of players.

And even then, most of that core group don't read the patch notes. As of this writing, the PTS 3.0 Patch Notes thread has 154.5K views. This is from a game with over 7,000,000 accounts (how many are active nobody knows). Many of these views are repeat views, so the actual number of unique views is legitimately lower than 154K.

Most players in game, in the guilds I run with, the people I talk to, the /zone chat I see, literally have no idea what's going on, what's changing, or how it impacts them.

The Heavy Attack Meta is going to hit them hard.

Moloch1514

Calindel wrote: »

At what point does the company realize that 85% of their player base has not even completed VMA, Vet Cradle of shadows, or Vet RoM. As an company you can not base all your decisions around the feedback of 1% of your player base who spend 23 hours a day playing and live streaming your game. They need to actually play the game with real players, I challenge the devs to log into the NA server and use the LFG tool for a dungeon, then im ok with any changes they want to make. Creating content around Fengrush or Deltia or Hodor's opinions is absolutely insane for the majority of the people that actually play this game.

This ×1000000! @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert please consider us!

jcasini222ub17_ESO

Just want to understand the development design behind causing 2 dk's to fight over Ingeous shield if grouped together and 2 Templars to fight over repentance when grouped together.

Should we duel each other to see which person gets to use the skill?

As well as the heavy resto attack, grants major mending, drops off during remembrance, practiced incantation, and panacea. Is this intended?

Ghost-Shot

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, wanted to provide a bit of clarification regarding the previous reply as it didn’t come across completely accurate. DKs in general have a great toolset for tanking, but that doesn’t mean they are strictly meant to tank. For example, we’ve seen that Magicka DKs (as some of you have been asking about) are putting out great DPS numbers. The original comment was meant more to say that DKs in tanking roles are very powerful, but DKs can also be strong DPS or even healers, too, as some of you have proven. On the flip side, you don’t necessarily need to be a DK if you want to tank, either. Our overall goal is to ensure you can play any class in any role, which is what we’re working toward in this upcoming update. Apologies for the confusion this caused!

@ZOS_GinaBruno will you ever accept that this design philosophy doesn't work and possibly add specializations to classes like they do in other mmo's to properly define and balance class roles?

F7sus4

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Gina, may I ask you a question? What do you exactly do in ZOS for living? You're community manager, right? So basically your role is to stuff our mouths with dodging PR-style answers to make everything look professional while in fact perhaps nothing is really done.

No problem on that. That's your job. But with all my sincere honesty and sympathy - it's not that the feedback is varying so much with those "many different sources" for 3.0.x. The straightline of the feedback is so devastatingly similar with each single comment and comes directly from your most knowledgeable players that it's not possible not to be able to notice it.

Spoiler

meritocracy > democracy

Tavore1138

lunalitetempler wrote: »

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Carbonised wrote: »

Third round of PTS. Devs (or rather, Gina) continues to reply in some threads that "yes, of course we are listening, you just need to be patient".

This is what happens each and every single time. You make some bullcr*p changes on the PTS, then try and calm everyone that it's only a PTS and things will change, then we see 4 cycles of useless, cosmetic PTS changes and the whole shebang goes live with some minor adjustments here and there, just to prove that you did indeed listen.

This week's PTS once again brought nothing to the table. A 10 % damage nerf to a single sorc ability, like that's going to solve jack squat. And nothing for DKs, nothing to make up for sh***ing all over our sustain, leaving us with an empty shell of a class. Nothing for all the people who can no longer participate in content like vMA and vMoL cause we're not part of the pro elite, and might have had a chance of doing that content only before this nerf-gate scandal.

So tell me, how long do I need to be patient? Until all this goes live and it's too late to change a thing? Until we have a new balance PTS patch half a year from now? It's not like we haven't been through this sharade and sham since Thief Guild update (and before that, though that's before my time).

Don't know why I even bother participating in this any more, you might as well just not bother having a PTS in the future seeing as you don't care a thing about the feedback given anyhow.

Stop the whining already, get used to it.

You have become boring, time to get a new sock puppet account?

Durnik

@ZOS_GinaBruno I can imagine the stress you get from reading these forums has to drive you nuts. I will put in my 2 cents as well, just nicer.

I feel that DK's should be a viable DPS and I will of course try it. However, there is a tendency to say DK's should be tanks which makes life in the game for a DPS DK a less enjoyable.

A class change option should be on the table.

With the release of the "non DLC" downloadable content giving a new class to the game I'm disappointed I cannot change class. However, I would roll a new character as long as you give me all the motifs, achievements and such that my main character has. I'll even buy the extra character slot and level it up but for Pete's sake please don't make me have to run all those dungeons again or have to level PVP again.

Rohamad_Ali

You heard it here first . DK's make great healers .