Why even bother with having a PTS

Nebthet78 · May 2017

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Fair points, but the changes you're referencing are minor, cosmetic changes; and the community here, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, game-magazine Forums, Streamers on Twitch and YouTube, etc., are all very unhappy and voicing their well-thought out and numbers-proven concerns over the blanket nerfs you're making to every area of Sustain and Cost Reduction in the game.

But even with the entire internet blowing up with discontent over your proposed changes; all we get is that you're going to steam on ahead regardless of the legions of players who are not happy with these changes in any way?

This is not an "I quit" post. But the changes you guys are powering on with have really and seriously decreased my desire to log in to your game each night.

I usually log in for 2-4 hours every night, which is 14-28 hours per week. Since these changes are steaming ahead and you're blatantly ignoring feedback that doesn't agree with the massive, core-mechanics changes that you're forcing on a player base that doesn't want them, I've only logged in to the Live server for a total of around 4 hours in the last two weeks.

Is that your goal? Because that's what it's done to me, and according to... pretty much everywhere I go in the internet, that's what it's doing to a lot of players as well.

We don't care that you guys at ZOS think these changes are "what's best for the game". We're testing your content, your changes, and WE'RE giving you numbers, experiences, and evidence that proves that your ideas ARE NOT what's "best for the game". In fact, what we're finding is; your proposed changes are highly detrimental to the game.

But as you illustrated so eloquently in your post, you (as an entire company) aren't actually listening, nor do you care.

These PTS servers and Forums are a placebo. There to make us think that our opinions, numbers, videos, and evidence have weight with your developers; when in fact that have no weight at all.

So you tell me, Gina. With these changes destroying three out of five classes and (despite what you guys say about wanting "fast-paced combat") greatly slowing combat and player potency dropping into the gutter, what is there that should tempt me to log-in more than the minuscule four (4) hours a week that I've dropped to since 3.0 arrived her on the PTS?

You're taking three years worth of work, building up characters I love and am very happy playing, and you're flushing it with these changes. Three years building up my characters, just to have them become VASTLY weaker (and nigh unplayable) with the Morrowind patch.

Aside from the pathetic cosmetic changes that do nothing to fix the abortive issues to player strength that these patches are doing, what are you guys doing to actually "listen" to us?

Because with the gaming internet in the state that it's in over your changes; do you think the line of "it may not be what you want, but nerfing your characters into the ground is what we feel is best", do you really think that's going to go over well with the players once this goes live?

Because the Streamers that you value so highly are already spreading the word that these changes are atrocious. And thier fans/followers? They listen, whereas you (as a company) obviously are not.

As aggressive as what the OP said, i must agree with this. I used to put 8+ hours daily in this game (my main magicka DK has well over 4,000 hours), but since the release of the PTS and its current direction, i log in grab hirelings and log off, i do not even bother with crafting dailies, i even cancelled my morrowind collector's edition pre-order. I alone may not make a difference in the game to you, but there is nothing i can further do from my end. I gave you my opinions, numerous times since the Imperial City patch, and it has been downhill for my main character (magicka DK) since then. I have been loyal since beta, subscriber since day 1 till today, morrowind is seriously making me regret everything i have done.

You are not alone. I only log in once a week now to check to see if anything in my guild traders has sold. The PTS has killed my desired to continue to play this game and I used to be a daily 8+hr player.

Carbonised · May 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

I get that not everyone can be pleased with every change that hits the PTS. However, there are 2 things to consider.
First, there haven't really been changes in the PTS increments. Largely you're struggling with the NB siphon ability and the Templar ressource returns, and you fiddle about with that, adjusting it a bit. That's not really change, that's minor adjustment based on community response. Which leads me to the second point, there is a large majority of people who state, and prove, that magsorc is vastly superior in bopth PvE and PvP compared to all the other classes. I don't even need to link to this thread from the Morrowind forum where we see a post-patch average parse comparison for magicka classes. Warden a little shy of 22k DPS, Nightblade the same, almost 22k DPS, magDK up to 24k DPS and a whooping 30.5k DPS to our friend, the mag sorc. Is this working as intended? 6k more DPS than the magDK and more than 8k DPS above NB and Warden? What justifies this? And do you even think for a second that the -10 % damage nerf to frags is going to change a thing about that?

When I write a thread like this, it's because of the frustration that you don't listen to feedback like that. Why did every class suffer class specific sustain nerfs this patch except the sorc, while sorcs still have an average DPS that is leagues higher than everyone else - while also steamrolling most people in PvP?
What exactly is the reasoning behind this?
So yeah, these might not be the changes I'm looking for, but then they are not the changes most of the community is looking for either, judging from the average feedback you get in both this PTS forum and the Morrowind closed beta one.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Well I'm clad you considered that maybe, just maybe there are some DKs that play other roles than tank. Why do you insist on pigeonholing the DK into the tank role with heavy armor and a shield? Do we not have a whole class skill line dedicated to DPS? I don't think people are mostly talking about "moar powah" for the DK anyway, what I hear most people ask, and what I personally think is lacking for the DK, is versatility and plain fun. Why aren't wings reliable and viable? Why did you take away our player based AOE and give it to stam sorcs? Again look at the sorc, it's perfectly viable to stay in light armor and pump up magicka and spell power for both survival and damage. You have mobility, versatility, shields, ressource regain. Pretty much everything. What do the DK have? Well you can turtle down in heavy armor and a shield and do jack squat damage and have 0 mobility. But hey, at least you might last a whole 10 seconds in a PvP battle while holding that block button. At least before the blocking nerfs and the heavy armor nerfs and the DK sustain nerfs and ...
But I'm glad you still consider the DK a "quite powerful" class.

Moglijuana · May 2017

So let me get this straight. DK's get gutted patch after patch that reduce their ability to tank...but then @ZOS_GinaBruno says they're meant to be tanks?

That explains why I can "tank" so well wielding a destro/resto in Cyrodiil with my limited mobility, sub par defense, and easily countered DOT's AND THE MOST EXPENSIVE SKILLS IN THE MOTHER F***ING GAME.

Makes perfect sense, I don't know how I was so blind. Thank you ZOS for showing me the way...idk how I've been able to play my DK so wrong for so long...smh. What a sad joke.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Moglijuana wrote: »

So let me get this straight. DK's get gutted patch after patch that reduce their ability to tank...but then @ZOS_GinaBruno says they're meant to be tanks?

That explains why I can "tank" so well wielding a destro/resto in Cyrodiil with my limited mobility, sub par defense, and easily countered DOT's AND THE MOST EXPENSIVE SKILLS IN THE MOTHER F***ING GAME.

Makes perfect sense, I don't know how I was so blind. Thank you ZOS for showing me the way...idk how I've been able to play my DK so wrong for so long...smh. What a sad joke.

And the sad part is: Even with ZOS laying it down that DK's are only meant for and fit to be Tanks, the nerfs on them are so severe, that even if you completely respec a DK to be the PERFECT Tank, they're going to suffer mightily for it and not be able to effectively fulfill that roll due to the nerfs to their abilities as well as the combination of sustain and cost reduction nerfs...

The more ZOS posts about and concerning these Morrowind changes, the more I fully believe that they don't actually have a "vision" or even a "general direction" for ESO. They seem to be blundering about, completely clueless about what/where they want this game to go... and that incompetence comes from the top decision makers, and infects every developer below them.

ZOS is absolutely "lost in the woods" in regard to running and making an MMORPG successful or even "fun".

[sarcasm] Because, IMO; I'd MUCH RATHER be forced to continuously micro-manage and fret about my sustain and cost reduction instead of playing the game and having fun! [/sarcasm]

MaxwellC · May 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno
Thanks for providing the answer that we've been dying to see. I'm glad to also know that the "Play how you want" approach has officially died, My Stam and Mag DK were obviously doing the wrong thing for such a long time. It explains why the stand your ground approach to the DK suddenly became Stand your ground, on quicksand. The class is a former shell of what it use to be and it saddens me that each and every PTS people other than myself ask for changes that are reasonable and there's support for it (some stronger than others) yet it's ignored.

Pops_ND_Irish · May 2017

Another great one

Starless06 · May 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno I understand that there may not be significant changes to DK before the release date. I assume the poster was asking about a mDK damage role. What does "(as it should be being a tank)" mean in regards to a damage dealer role?

Maybe you misunderstood the question?

Zeuq · May 2017

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

"Play as you want" I do not want to be a tank.

LtCrunch · May 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

I really hope this just another example of poor wording. Regardless of it it is or not it's going to upset a lot of people. It begs the question do you guys really balance classes as "the tank, the healer, the dps, the ganker and the support" now? Because if so then this whole "play the way you want" stuff needs to end. Though it wouldn't be surprising. More and more it seems you guys say one thing while doing something totally different. You all need to work on your communication and clarity skills big time.

Rainteal · May 2017

Starless06 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno I understand that there may not be significant changes to DK before the release date. I assume the poster was asking about a mDK damage role. What does "(as it should be being a tank)" mean in regards to a damage dealer role?

Maybe you misunderstood the question?

I am sure that was the case. Unfortunately, people will quote this ad nauseam as PROOF that ZOS LIES!!! Blah Blah Blah

This right here is why ZOS doesn't regularly communicate in community discussion. This, is why we cannot have nice things...

Rex-Umbra · May 2017

What about mNB? we are poopy atm.

Darlgon · May 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

PTS is not now, never was intended to be and never will be a vehicle for 11th hour drastic changes in the direction of the river. Those major course shifts were planned and decided way before pts. Anybody thinking the minute fraction of players participating in PTS (or the slightly not as minute fraction who follow the streamers, eso live, forums et al) are ever going to change the course of the river are just not being realistic.

That is not the same as saying your feedback isnt being heard.

are you a developer in eso ?

Are you? Because he put stated the purpose of the PTS pretty well.

C0MEDIA · May 2017

I just came in to see the TRETA (pt_br).

Joy_Division · May 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

Weps · May 2017

Rainteal wrote: »

Starless06 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno I understand that there may not be significant changes to DK before the release date. I assume the poster was asking about a mDK damage role. What does "(as it should be being a tank)" mean in regards to a damage dealer role?

Maybe you misunderstood the question?

I am sure that was the case. Unfortunately, people will quote this ad nauseam as PROOF that ZOS LIES!!! Blah Blah Blah

This right here is why ZOS doesn't regularly communicate in community discussion. This, is why we cannot have nice things...

Lol, who's saying ZoS is lying?
We're asking for more clarity regarding that statement.
If the Devs, Wrobel or whoever is in charge of balancing the class think the Dk is pretty much ok like this because it's supposed to be tankier but still putting up decent damage, then we should understand a little bit more what's their idea for the future of the class because clearly Stam Dk has been gradually ignored in the past year and half and Magicka DK has been slightly buffed with the previous patch and destroyed in this one.

And again, StamDKs Dps is pretty "powerful" against immobile or scripted targets but they're now lacking everything against intelligent life forms.

I won't even dignify the whole blame shifting ending part with a well thought because is such small-minded as a comment I won't even waste the energy I need to elaborate a reply with my second language.

Dorrino · May 2017

[rant]

How in the world you guys could understand 'this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank)' as 'DKs are designed to ONLY be tanks'?:D

We all know DKs are the tankiest of all classes and that in pve trial content main tanks are almost exclusively DKs. This phrase (while potentially having side connotations) obviously reads as 'since DKs are the best tanks, they have to be powerful enough to perform that role'.

Nobody ever said DKs have to only be tanks. Nothing in their class design implies this limitation. None of the PTS changes imply this limitation. Yet you take one semi-ambiguous sentence, interpret it in a ZOS-bashing way and call impeding doom upon this game.

Jeez.

[/rant]

Weps · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

I don't get it, really.
It feels like kindergarten.

Yes, maybe someone's answer were a little bit above the line but it's understandable considering the implications of such statement. All we're asking is an answer and more clarity regarding that statement.
If a company like this cannot withstand 10 posts made by upset people, then we really have a problem.

Can we just have a discussion with this company? Can we at least get a little bit of clarity regarding the future of this class?
Nobody's asking to go to trial for that, nobody's asking to give us a symposium regarding the Dynamic Forces.
It seems like the class has been blatantly ignored for a while or nerfed badly in key aspects.
Wouldn't be the first time if a part of the player base gets some real and clear answers.

And that statement, is just honest.
No real feedback. Not really clear. Just like the comments.
"We nerfed this because it was overperforming".
Yeah, thank you for stating the obvious.

Rainteal · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

Rainteal wrote: »

Starless06 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno I understand that there may not be significant changes to DK before the release date. I assume the poster was asking about a mDK damage role. What does "(as it should be being a tank)" mean in regards to a damage dealer role?

Maybe you misunderstood the question?

I am sure that was the case. Unfortunately, people will quote this ad nauseam as PROOF that ZOS LIES!!! Blah Blah Blah

This right here is why ZOS doesn't regularly communicate in community discussion. This, is why we cannot have nice things...

Lol, who's saying ZoS is lying?
We're asking for more clarity regarding that statement.
If the Devs, Wrobel or whoever is in charge of balancing the class think the Dk is pretty much ok like this because it's supposed to be tankier but still putting up decent damage, then we should understand a little bit more what's their idea for the future of the class because clearly Stam Dk has been gradually ignored in the past year and half and Magicka DK has been slightly buffed with the previous patch and destroyed in this one.

And again, StamDKs Dps is pretty "powerful" against immobile or scripted targets but they're now lacking everything against intelligent life forms.

I won't even dignify the whole blame shifting ending part with a well thought because is such small-minded as a comment I won't even waste the energy I need to elaborate a reply with my second language.

Wow...

I was making a lighthearted joke about how the community overreacts to what appears to be the misunderstanding of a question, and you went there? That is some of the most pretentious drivel I have ever read.

Have a nice day sir.

STEVIL · May 2017

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

PTS is not now, never was intended to be and never will be a vehicle for 11th hour drastic changes in the direction of the river. Those major course shifts were planned and decided way before pts. Anybody thinking the minute fraction of players participating in PTS (or the slightly not as minute fraction who follow the streamers, eso live, forums et al) are ever going to change the course of the river are just not being realistic.

That is not the same as saying your feedback isnt being heard.

are you a developer in eso ?

there is no ZOS beside my tag so, obviously no.

I am also not a physicist but i know whether or not forums posts can change how gravity works.

I have been a developer on major it projects which made it from concept to development thru life cycles including user testing as well as game development in other games so... add in the history of ESO since launch as far as PTS and major development swings... i stand by my statements as long as say a forum rant doesn't cause me to float out of my chair due to gravitic shifts before i can click "submit" "post reply"

lets test that...

Calandrae · May 2017

Hmmm.

So DKs are meant to be tanks. That's it. As long as they are good tanks, that's enough and the class is fine according to ZoS. No need for diversity.

At the same time Templar healers are getting nerfed on several fronts because every class should be able to fill every role. And according to ZoS Templars aren't allowed to shine in the healer role anymore because it's all about diversity.

I'm sorry but all this seems a bit too contradictory. Difficult to believe there is some kind of master plan or vision behind this mess.

Elsonso · May 2017

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

My thought is that if Gina had left out the "(as it should be being a tank)" that people would not be as upset. As it is, they are taking the statement out of context and going into a rage, potentially shutting down all further comment.

ZoM_Head · May 2017

LonePirate wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

I asked this in another thread and I will ask this here. Have any of the devs taken a Magicka DK into Cyrodiil or into Battlegrounds? The class is in shambles. The class skills deal very little damage in PVP situations - the least damage of the five classes - even though the class skills are melee skills. Melee weapon skills do far more damage than the DK melee class skills. Other classes have ranged class skills that deal more damage than DK melee skills, which is exactly the opposite of the reasoning given in the past for making melee weapon skills deal more damage than ranged weapon skills.

Then there are the issues related to the class's worst is game sustain, the absurdly high skill costs, the pathetically weak PVP self-heals, the complete absence of a class execute, the sub-par shields and the some of the worst class passive skills in the game. If the class is supposed to be the tank class as you say, then it needs to have high sustain and high quality shields at a minimum with strong melee damage, and low skill costs as well. Magicka DKs, tanks and non-tanks alike, have none of those things. If the dev team had taken a Magicka DK into Cyrodiil or Battlegrounds, especially in the PTS against actual players, they would experience first hand the dismal state of the class right now.

When the dev team fails to recognize and resolve these plainly visible faults and fails to explain them amidst an enormous backlash from the player base, then something is wrong somewhere. ZOS must take the responsibility of addressing the problems or educating and communicating with players why they possess a vision that is diametrically opposed to the vision held by players. I think I speak for many DKs out there when I ask "Why are you doing this to us?"

They probably did use a DK in cyrodiil, with a group of 10+ and only spamming talons to CC the crap out of everyone, thats all.

Gomumon wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Fair points, but the changes you're referencing are minor, cosmetic changes; and the community here, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, game-magazine Forums, Streamers on Twitch and YouTube, etc., are all very unhappy and voicing their well-thought out and numbers-proven concerns over the blanket nerfs you're making to every area of Sustain and Cost Reduction in the game.

But even with the entire internet blowing up with discontent over your proposed changes; all we get is that you're going to steam on ahead regardless of the legions of players who are not happy with these changes in any way?

This is not an "I quit" post. But the changes you guys are powering on with have really and seriously decreased my desire to log in to your game each night.

I usually log in for 2-4 hours every night, which is 14-28 hours per week. Since these changes are steaming ahead and you're blatantly ignoring feedback that doesn't agree with the massive, core-mechanics changes that you're forcing on a player base that doesn't want them, I've only logged in to the Live server for a total of around 4 hours in the last two weeks.

Is that your goal? Because that's what it's done to me, and according to... pretty much everywhere I go in the internet, that's what it's doing to a lot of players as well.

We don't care that you guys at ZOS think these changes are "what's best for the game". We're testing your content, your changes, and WE'RE giving you numbers, experiences, and evidence that proves that your ideas ARE NOT what's "best for the game". In fact, what we're finding is; your proposed changes are highly detrimental to the game.

But as you illustrated so eloquently in your post, you (as an entire company) aren't actually listening, nor do you care.

These PTS servers and Forums are a placebo. There to make us think that our opinions, numbers, videos, and evidence have weight with your developers; when in fact that have no weight at all.

So you tell me, Gina. With these changes destroying three out of five classes and (despite what you guys say about wanting "fast-paced combat") greatly slowing combat and player potency dropping into the gutter, what is there that should tempt me to log-in more than the minuscule four (4) hours a week that I've dropped to since 3.0 arrived her on the PTS?

You're taking three years worth of work, building up characters I love and am very happy playing, and you're flushing it with these changes. Three years building up my characters, just to have them become VASTLY weaker (and nigh unplayable) with the Morrowind patch.

Aside from the pathetic cosmetic changes that do nothing to fix the abortive issues to player strength that these patches are doing, what are you guys doing to actually "listen" to us?

Because with the gaming internet in the state that it's in over your changes; do you think the line of "it may not be what you want, but nerfing your characters into the ground is what we feel is best", do you really think that's going to go over well with the players once this goes live?

Because the Streamers that you value so highly are already spreading the word that these changes are atrocious. And thier fans/followers? They listen, whereas you (as a company) obviously are not.

As aggressive as what the OP said, i must agree with this. I used to put 8+ hours daily in this game (my main magicka DK has well over 4,000 hours), but since the release of the PTS and its current direction, i log in grab hirelings and log off, i do not even bother with crafting dailies, i even cancelled my morrowind collector's edition pre-order. I alone may not make a difference in the game to you, but there is nothing i can further do from my end. I gave you my opinions, numerous times since the Imperial City patch, and it has been downhill for my main character (magicka DK) since then. I have been loyal since beta, subscriber since day 1 till today, morrowind is seriously making me regret everything i have done.

No, I agree. I subscribed to ESO Plus 180 days at a time and pre-ordered Morrowind myself. I was playing 20 hrs a week. Ever since the first round of PTS this patch, I lost almost all motivation to continue putting time and energy into something that could all be for nigh at the whim of the devs. I can give my feedback, but I can't pretend that I know how to develop a game better than they do. However, that doesn't mean that I need to keep subscribing to it.

As many have said, it seems like, after three years, they're still unsure of what direction they wanna take this game in, who they're catering to (new customers or veteran subscribers), or how to balance 4 classes, 3 roles, and 2 metagames then adding a 5th class to the mix. I am not entitled to tell them what to do with their game, but I am entitled to my money. I have lost faith in ZOS and, while I still hope that this game will remain fun, I do not feel confident moving forward in continuing to give them large lump sums of money on a regular basis or buy new content.

Thus, it seems that for people like us, the only solution is to cancel our pre-orders and Plus subscriptions, as they likely won't implement any changes before this goes live that we'll be happy with. On the bright side, I've been trying out other F2Ps until I see a P2P worthwhile, and playing Magic: The Gathering Online, and catching up on all the anime and TV shows I've missed sinking all my free time into keeping up with ESO. It's actually kind of freeing.

With every PTS i keep wishing for Zenimax to actually look at the state of the game (as a whole) and just look at the magicka DK, then say "yes it is fine as it is", honestly.

NBrookus wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Speaking as someone who does lean toward tanky DKs, removing our major mending and nerfing blocking and nerfing our primary resource return to buff a resource we don't need as much is not making us powerful as tanks. Tanks need MORE sustain than DPS classes, not less.

The reality is in PvP you still have to be able to kill people even if you build tanky, otherwise you are just a walking ultimate generator that dies last.

But why are DKs being told we are only supposed to be tanks when we have 3 DPS skill lines? Doesn't Warden have skill lines for tanking, healing and DPS? Weren't the Orb/Shard changes all about allowing other classes to be good support healers? Why are Dragonknights now being told we are only supposed to do one role?

It took Zenimax over 1 and a half years to fix a heal, a very basic heal, to be used in Cyrodiil, and it is still the most expensive heal in game.

Nebthet78 wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

Fair points, but the changes you're referencing are minor, cosmetic changes; and the community here, Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, game-magazine Forums, Streamers on Twitch and YouTube, etc., are all very unhappy and voicing their well-thought out and numbers-proven concerns over the blanket nerfs you're making to every area of Sustain and Cost Reduction in the game.

But even with the entire internet blowing up with discontent over your proposed changes; all we get is that you're going to steam on ahead regardless of the legions of players who are not happy with these changes in any way?

This is not an "I quit" post. But the changes you guys are powering on with have really and seriously decreased my desire to log in to your game each night.

I usually log in for 2-4 hours every night, which is 14-28 hours per week. Since these changes are steaming ahead and you're blatantly ignoring feedback that doesn't agree with the massive, core-mechanics changes that you're forcing on a player base that doesn't want them, I've only logged in to the Live server for a total of around 4 hours in the last two weeks.

Is that your goal? Because that's what it's done to me, and according to... pretty much everywhere I go in the internet, that's what it's doing to a lot of players as well.

We don't care that you guys at ZOS think these changes are "what's best for the game". We're testing your content, your changes, and WE'RE giving you numbers, experiences, and evidence that proves that your ideas ARE NOT what's "best for the game". In fact, what we're finding is; your proposed changes are highly detrimental to the game.

But as you illustrated so eloquently in your post, you (as an entire company) aren't actually listening, nor do you care.

These PTS servers and Forums are a placebo. There to make us think that our opinions, numbers, videos, and evidence have weight with your developers; when in fact that have no weight at all.

So you tell me, Gina. With these changes destroying three out of five classes and (despite what you guys say about wanting "fast-paced combat") greatly slowing combat and player potency dropping into the gutter, what is there that should tempt me to log-in more than the minuscule four (4) hours a week that I've dropped to since 3.0 arrived her on the PTS?

You're taking three years worth of work, building up characters I love and am very happy playing, and you're flushing it with these changes. Three years building up my characters, just to have them become VASTLY weaker (and nigh unplayable) with the Morrowind patch.

Aside from the pathetic cosmetic changes that do nothing to fix the abortive issues to player strength that these patches are doing, what are you guys doing to actually "listen" to us?

Because with the gaming internet in the state that it's in over your changes; do you think the line of "it may not be what you want, but nerfing your characters into the ground is what we feel is best", do you really think that's going to go over well with the players once this goes live?

Because the Streamers that you value so highly are already spreading the word that these changes are atrocious. And thier fans/followers? They listen, whereas you (as a company) obviously are not.

As aggressive as what the OP said, i must agree with this. I used to put 8+ hours daily in this game (my main magicka DK has well over 4,000 hours), but since the release of the PTS and its current direction, i log in grab hirelings and log off, i do not even bother with crafting dailies, i even cancelled my morrowind collector's edition pre-order. I alone may not make a difference in the game to you, but there is nothing i can further do from my end. I gave you my opinions, numerous times since the Imperial City patch, and it has been downhill for my main character (magicka DK) since then. I have been loyal since beta, subscriber since day 1 till today, morrowind is seriously making me regret everything i have done.

You are not alone. I only log in once a week now to check to see if anything in my guild traders has sold. The PTS has killed my desired to continue to play this game and I used to be a daily 8+hr player.

Join the club then, a few mDKs leaving the game is better for them i suppose. They can focus on their broken CP system that is constantly changing and making the Warden the only class to play.

Northern_Eve wrote: »

Hmmm.

So DKs are meant to be tanks. That's it. As long as they are good tanks, that' enough and the class is fine according to ZoS. No need for diversity.

At the same time Templar healers are getting nerfed on several fronts because every class should be able to fill every role. And according to ZoS Templas aren't allowed to shine in the healer role anymore because it's all about diversity.

I'm sorry but all this seems a bit too contradictory. Difficult to believe there is some kind of master plan or vision behind this mess.

The "mast plan" is very clear, roll a warden and regrind every single thing you have done the last near 3 years of ESO.

No thank you.

Draqone · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

And Magicka DKs? Are they supposed to tank too? How can a magicka Dk block in PvP with 14k Stam that goes down twice as fast? Are we playing the same class the devs are playing? Or are the Devs constantly playing it in God Mode just like when they show off the Warden?

I'm stunned, really.

Use an Ice Staff.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

To be fair, there have been changes in each PTS patch, but they aren't the changes you're looking for (sorry, had to get a #MayTheFourth joke in today somewhere). At the risk of regurgitating the same thing we've said before, we do care about your feedback, but keep in mind there's feedback coming from many different sources, some of which everyone here doesn't see (like in-game feedback, for example). Also, we need to take a look at what's best for the entire game and for its future. Your feedback isn't useless - we do read, and we do take everything into consideration.

@ZOS_GinaBruno There's been a lot of angst RE: the state of DK, specifically mDK. Last year, when there were similar concerns about the state of Stamina Sorcerer Wrobel did like a mini QA to provide the players with an idea of where he saw the class headed. Any chance we could get something similar on DK? I think some of our stress could be assuaged if we could at least see the direction Development has for this class.

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Oh boy. While I appreciate the honesty and the feedback, I'm pretty sure after the forum backlash it's going to be a while until we get a transparent ZoS response like this.

My thought is that if Gina had left out the "(as it should be being a tank)" that people would not be as upset. As it is, they are taking the statement out of context and going into a rage, potentially shutting down all further comment.

Well then, let's put into the context it came in, shall we?

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.

Seems pretty clear to me that this is exactly the meaning and context of the whole comment. ZOS's ideal is that DK's are meant to be Tanks.

Even after they nuked the DK's ability TO Tank; if you're playing a DK, you're supposed to be a Tank.

That's not the community taking it out of context, that IS the context.

STEVIL · May 2017

Northern_Eve wrote: »

Hmmm.

So DKs are meant to be tanks. That's it. As long as they are good tanks, that' enough and the class is fine according to ZoS. No need for diversity.

At the same time Templar healers are getting nerfed on several fronts because every class should be able to fill every role. And according to ZoS Templas aren't allowed to shine in the healer role anymore because it's all about diversity.

I'm sorry but all this seems a bit too contradictory. Difficult to believe there is some kind of master plan or vision behind this mess.

i may have missed where ZOS said "So DKs are meant to be tanks. That's it. As long as they are good tanks, that' enough and the class is fine according to ZoS. No need for diversity. " or anything even remotely like it, so if you can provide a source for it being from ZOS and not from random forum poster number 12, that would be awesome.

As for healers they did talk about templars, did not say they were not going to be the good healers or the best healers, just that they did not want the resource gains, most specifically stamina gain, to be locking them into that role over all other healers.

From what i saw they made it clear:
They are ok with some classes being better at some roles.
they are not ok with specific classes having specific unique capabilities which means other classes cannot perform the role even if not quite as good. (you may recall a number of threads about why templar were the only class with stamina regens for groups and that that needed to change for diversity started by forum posters for quite some time.)

Warden is not going to replace templars as healers based on the current pts model in cases where top-end content scoring is needed. They can fill-in for them in that role, like other classes can, against lesser levels of performance. Specifically right now the temp remains the better burst healer which is a vital function in many different areas.

If i were designing it, i would have made it even more drastic... wardens would be ALL HOT with some morphs for small-burst-at-end. (total healing more but even the final burst less than templar burst) and the templar would be more bursty front-loaded healing but less overall healing total. They chose a less extreme differentiation but hey, i can get that.

Nolic1 · May 2017

I would like to point out only about 5% to !0% of the player base even checks in on the forums and this has been said by many dev's sense the days of old. I would also like to point out that @ZOS_GinaBruno Comment is being taken way out of context when it comes to DK tanking she is meaning that DK tanks are still just as viable as always but of course its getting bypassed by the many naysayers here.

Again these changes are needed to put the game into a more balanced play where all classes can be any role and be viable and not any one class is best in any but have small advantages for certain roles. Plus this might be a MMO but its not WoW and not EQ2 or any other mmo its ESO so remember that to please.

Weps · May 2017

Draqone wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

And Magicka DKs? Are they supposed to tank too? How can a magicka Dk block in PvP with 14k Stam that goes down twice as fast? Are we playing the same class the devs are playing? Or are the Devs constantly playing it in God Mode just like when they show off the Warden?

I'm stunned, really.

Use an Ice Staff.

Sorry, I can really understand how this might be a viable option.

For a short brief of time, why not.
Maybe against overland bosses.

But use it as the regular go-to tanking mode?
I might suggest to take a look at how strong 1h&s passives are.

Plus the DK is basically all fire based, what's the use of having an ice staff which is already a joke damage-wise in PvP?
And it's more effective in melee range, I'd have to go 1h&S and Ice staff sacrificing All the damage.

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

Nolic1 wrote: »

I would like to point out only about 5% to !0% of the player base even checks in on the forums and this has been said by many dev's sense the days of old. I would also like to point out that @ZOS_GinaBruno Comment is being taken way out of context when it comes to DK tanking she is meaning that DK tanks are still just as viable as always but of course its getting bypassed by the many naysayers here.

Again these changes are needed to put the game into a more balanced play where all classes can be any role and be viable and not any one class is best in any but have small advantages for certain roles. Plus this might be a MMO but its not WoW and not EQ2 or any other mmo its ESO so remember that to please.

So, because "this is ESO"; we're supposed to be fine with homogenized, cookie-cutter builds and Classes, and a leveling system where there's almost no noticeable difference between having 630CP and having 63CP?

If I wanted to feel like I'm the same power level at end-game as someone who just started... Hell, why even have levels at all? Why not just make ESO like Halo where there are no levels, everyone is the same "power" and just let them romp all over with zero progression whatsoever.

The whole and core purpose of an MMORPG is to build a character, have them grow powerful, and defeat the "great evils" that infect whatever game world you're running around in. An MMORPG with zero progression at end game and homogenized, "every Class can do the same stuff as every other Class, so picking a Class doesn't really mean anything" just sounds boring as hell.

FlyLionel · May 2017

This just in, for PVE there has been a discovery that archaeologists have just found, a new role for NB's...it's called; cheerleaders. Give me an S..O..R...you know the rest

lol..

Calandrae · May 2017

Well, let's say the comment about DKs being tanks was just badly formatted and not thought through. Then what?

As long as communication from ZoS' side is going to be this sparse, one-sided and quite frankly insufficient, this is what's going to happen and how many people are going to react. There is no genuine dialogue between the players and developers/the company as a whole, and the lack of public relations and dialogue will continue to make customers (players) disappointed and even hostile.

If and when people feel they are being heard and their concerns are validated in an informative and respectful manner, they will more likely adapt to even large (and unpleasant) changes. This is pretty basic stuff anyone working with people - be it marketing, care/therapy, retail or whatever knows and faces every single day.