Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

DDuke

zsitvaij wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

When addon developers are able to write their own functions, functions not supplied by the developer of the game?

Third party.

All a user supplied function is is a more organized way to call built-in functions. You're arguing that an addon executed top-to-bottom is fine, but the exact same functionality divided into legible, named chunks is over the line.

Not exactly.


But addons are practically third party in any case.

1st party=you
2nd party=ZOS
3rd party=addon creator/supplier

Addons that aren't 3rd party would be any official ones created by ZOS (which don't exist)

Publius_Scipio

Again, all this back and forth is because the house let the players touch the deck of cards. That’s not a good thing. Paul Sage knew very well all these discussions would come. For some reason modding and addons seem to be necessary for some games to even be considered as possible successes these days. Players seem to demand that it be this way.

A real bad formula, especially in games with PvP and connected complicated systems like ESO. When you allow this you lose some quality control on your product. Unless of course we all lived in a perfect world and no one would ever think of getting shady, let alone in a game.

This conversation will never end until ZOS heavily restricts certain API, or just tells us that how things are currently is the way it will stay. Surly I give less than 1% chance ZOS would announce one day they are closing all API in Sage’s memory.

Feanor

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Again, all this back and forth is because the house let the players touch the deck of cards. That’s not a good thing. Paul Sage knew very well all these discussions would come. For some reason modding and addons seem to be necessary for some games to even be considered as possible successes these days. Players seem to demand that it be this way.

A real bad formula, especially in games with PvP and connected complicated systems like ESO. When you allow this you lose some quality control on your product. Unless of course we all lived in a perfect world and no one would ever think of getting shady, let alone in a game.

This conversation will never end until ZOS heavily restricts certain API, or just tells us that how things are currently is the way it will stay. Surly I give less than 1% chance ZOS would announce one day they are closing all API in Sage’s memory.

Addons are a good thing. They enrich the game. Or would you seriously say the base game UI is aesthetically pleasing and has all the functionality one would expect? The problem is that ZOS has no grasp on their code. Nothing else.

InvitationNotFound

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

ROFL. This again. You guys have no idea about private addons that exist. As an addon writer myself this is hilarious.

I know, hence the thread title: "Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!"


I'm no addon writer, but going through the API I can see some pretty broken stuff.

I believe this is what allows players to see other players cast bars (even while they're invisible/out of camera angle), i.e. Miat's alerts:
"GetAbilityCastInfo(number abilityId)
Returns: boolean channeled, number castTime, number channelTime"

And this:
"GetSkillAbilityInfo(number SkillType skillType, number skillIndex, number abilityIndex)
Returns: string name, textureName texture, number earnedRank, boolean passive, boolean ultimate, boolean purchased, number:nilable progressionIndex"

Sounds like it might let people see opponent's ultimate status and perhaps what skills they have on bar?


Lots of other dodgy stuff that needs to be addressed.

You should be careful with your assumptions if have no idea about the API and aren't writing addons.

I actually haven't used any of aforementioned functions (and their documentation sucks >_<), but there are many that are only working for yourself or in general.
What i mean is the following:
An ability has an ID. Something like 1 to 10000 or whatever (this is irrelevant here). Now you can ask what kind of ability it is respectively what attributes it has. Or what skills do I have slotted. And not what an opponent has slotted or what he is using or how he is buffed (well, to a certain degree things might be possible but the API restricts certain things - e.g. you might be able to see certain buffs an enemy has)

In your example above i completely miss how it should be determined if the skill is casted on you or who casted it. I'm missing context or arguments.

Don't get me wrong, there might be an issue, but just from the functions signature I wouldn't assume that there is anything wrong here.

I just searched for those functions in miat's pvp alerts.

GetAbilityCastInfo(number abilityId)
Returns: boolean channeled, number castTime, number channelTime

This function isn't present. So no, it isn't responsible and i doubt there is an issue with it. It is more like "hey, i have this ability, could the game please give me some information about it like cast time / channel time? thx". No issue here at all.

GetSkillAbilityInfo(number SkillType skillType, number skillIndex, number abilityIndex)
Returns: string name, textureName texture, number earnedRank, boolean passive, boolean ultimate, boolean purchased, number:nilable progressionIndex

This function is being used twice in the addon.

Location #1: PVP:IsStaminaAbility
Line #138 PvpAlerts_Spec_Detection.lua

Location #2: PVP:IsMagickaAbility
Line #155 PvpAlerts_Spec_Detection.lua

Nope, this function is being used to determine if a certain ability is a stamina or magicka ability. at least as far as it seems. i didn't verify what the code actually does.


Edit: btw. as longs as you haven't to specify some sort of unittag / player or something that has been derived from anything that directly relates to another player, no function in the API should provide information about other players. e.g. all your functions aren't taking anything related to other players as an argument.

Edit #2: Added some clarification.

Interesting, I feel smarter already.


Opened that lua file & found this:
"function PVP:DetectSpec(unitId, abilityId, result, sourceName, isBuff, damageBuff)"

...but I can't find this function in the API at all (or anything with keywords "Detect").

Oh well, coding is not my forte, so perhaps I shouldn't try to reverse-engineer things I don't understand fully.

I'm not sure if sarcastic or not, but anyway, you'll get your answer.

Oh, definitely not sarcastic - just curious about which specific line in the API is the problem. But...

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

The function PVP:DetectSpec(unitId, abilityId, result, sourceName, isBuff, damageBuff) isn't part of the API, it has been written by the author. There is nothing wrong with that neither is it an issue. I don't know how familiar you are with coding, but it is quite normal to write your own functions

...It seems I may have misunderstood how the API functions. Am I correct in assuming that the API not only provides functions, but also serves to restrict ones created by players?

In this case, the problem wouldn't be some bad line in the API, but rather the lack of a line to restrict these kinds of exploitative addons.

Okay, i guess you never wrote a single line of code before or at least didn't work with libraries or components written by other authors. I'll try to explain it.

ZOS allows addon authors to use certain functions they've created.
Let's say there are functions a, b, c and d. They have been created by ZOS.
Now ZOS decides that function d should only be only accessible through ZOS native (C/C++) code. Addon authors have no access to these functions through the API.
Furthermore, ZOS decides that function c should be available through LUA, but only for ZOS LUA code. Addon authors have no access to these functions through the API.
In addition, they decide that function b is okay to use for addon authors if the current player is not in combat. If an addon author calls such a function, the function won't be executed.
The last function that has been implemented by ZOS is function a. Addon authors can invoke this function whenever they want through the API.

I say here through the API as thrid party applications (binaries and not addons) should be capable to access more by manipulating or directly accessing memory, injecting new code etc. (this is where CE shines).

What addon authors are now doing is to create their own functions as this commonly done in programming to structure your code and to avoid writing the same code multiple times. This is normal and doesn't grant access to functionality that hasn't been provided by ZOS. Addon authors can only access functions that have been made available by ZOS (except you modify the client, which as far as i know can and has been done - but that's not an addon issue, you may call it directly cheating).

So an author may create function x which is calling functions a and b to perform some fancy ***. Sure, the author (and depending on the function scope, other authors) may invoke this new function x. Yet, function x can only perform actions that have been allowed by ZOS through their API.

If ZOS doesn't want something to be done by Addons, they will have to change their API (e.g. only return certain values when outside cyrodiil). Obviously, they aren't doing this in the current case as they provide that information.

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dunno why people really play this trash fest. Competitive player who likes hardcore PvP based on skills would never play it. PvP which is based on addons is really stupid. Long ago serious games implementing protection systems like Punkbuster to keep a fair game.

Having an addon which can show you disguised players before they are visually/audibly/physically detected? Are you for real?

They have a set in game which shortens the distance you can detect sneaking enemies. LOL. Here is an addon that will inform you in ample time when sneaking enemy tries to gank you. ZoS are just amateurs. If they were caring to develop high-end product they would make emergency suspension of servers to remove that addon as fast as they can.

No. You are wrong. Punkbuster wasn't there to keep a game fair. It was there to prevent cheats / hacks (in general third party applications). Punkbuster didn't care if the game logic or whatever the developers implemented was fair. Those are two completely different things.

Feel free to read my other posts on why addons are part of the game and this isn't an issue (technically seen, you might not like the game play or whatever, but your complaint is the same as saying i do not like skill xyz for whatever reason as it is simply part of the game) as i wont repeat myself over and over again.

Sure, if this addon & these particular API functions actually functioned as "addons" generally do, as in enhancing the base UI & providing you information already available in the game.

That's not the case here however, as you're able to see cast bars for your invisible/out of FoV opponent (information not available to you as part of the base game).


It'd be like comparing some harmless graphics enchancing mod in a FPS to a wallhack.

Miat's (and other similar addons) are in essence what a wallhack is in a FPS.


So no, it's not the same as saying "i do not like skill xyz"

Here's where it is all about definition. I don't know if you read all my posts and if you really understood them, so i'll try it again, but i won't repost the quotes from the tos, etc.

the tos will tell you that there are addons. they are allowed. they are there to modify and enhance the UI. that is part of the game you have bought and you have agreed to. of course, you don't have to like that, but that's what it is.

Sure, just like things such as:

• Sharpened Mace exploit 2015 (if you're not aware of this one: maces actually reduced target's armor by flat 20%, rather than 20% of the maximum 50% armor)
• Nirnhoned Staff exploit 2015 (similar to sharpened mace)
• Double Mundus exploit 2015-2016
• Porting to an opponent player's Shadow Image to get inside keeps 2014-1016
• Using gap closers to get inside keeps 2014-2016(?)

were part of the game.

Doesn't change the fact that players exploited flaws/loopholes in the game's code (for addon's like Miat's, that part of the game's code would be the API).

I suppose you're right though, it's about definition.

I'd define that cheating due to how badly it affects the game (exploits generally don't have equally dramatic effects), but I guess exploiting is a valid term as well.

I'm aware of those exploits. But i disagree. All you wrote above are bugs introduced by ZOS. It is obvious that we are dealing with bugs here. abusing a bug = exploiting (some sort of cheating, right). They are part of the game, but there is no intention to have those bugs. they were mistakes and slipped through QA (which means trough PTS and the feedback the players provided - i mean we all know, there's no QA).

Sure, bugs are getting exploited and the players exploiting those bugs should face the consequences.

And that's where i think this situation differs. The API and everything that can be done with it is part of the game (i know, that's not really an argument). Usually the function name explains (exactly) what the function is doing.

Let's look at this. If you have a function named CrashTheClient() and you invoke that function, you shouldn't be surprised if the game crashes. It does what it should. Might not be ideal or a great concept but it does what it has been intended for.

You might argue that the function causing your frustration isn't behaving correctly or should behave differently. Fine for me if you want it to behave differently. But i doubt it is working incorrectly as they have already reviewed this addon and adjusted their API. they didn't think it is necessary to change anything regarding this function. this is a strong indication for me, that this particular function is working as intended. And that's why i see a difference between some bugs you've mentioned and this particular function. In this context you can simply compare it with other game functionality such as a skill. and therefore, i wouldn't call anyone using this addon as a cheater. technically and logically seen, this isn't the case.

Yet, as i said earlier I'm fine with people complaining as long as it isn't all about feelings. You know, like "i don't like it, so it must be cheating".

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

I brought up the example of one of my addons: Port to Friend's House. I'm using an API function there which isn't available anywhere in the game. No such functionality exists in the base UI. Nowhere. But as you might have guessed, ZOS made that API available for addon authors, they even announced the introduction in their addon api patch notes (they wouldn't have to do that btw.). So are you telling me now that my addon is a hack or cheat because the functionality isn't in the base game? I'm sorry, but it is completely okay and it hasn't anything to do with cheating or hacking. It is simply part of the game ZOS has provided to you. Same applies to any other functionality present through the API, it is part of the game you've bought.

Interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if they added that function as part of the base game in the future (perhaps you're "beta testing" for them ) - it isn't exploitative by nature.

I don't know... maybe they are lazy? maybe they've decided to implementing something interesting at a later point in time.
Yet, the API sucks quite a bit and could be way better for addon authors. so yes... maybe just lazy.

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

And that's where comparing a wallhack to an UI enhancement fails. A wallhack, at least in the form you mean it, means you are required to use a third party application which manipulates the game in a way the game isn't meant to be played. Something that isn't in the game and most likely is forbidden through the tos. This doesn't apply to this addon. It does nothing that hasn't been meant that way by the developer.

But addons are practically third party, and I doubt detecting stealthed opponents' cast timers is "the way the game is meant to be played". Otherwise, why do they waste development time trying to buff cast time abilities if they're supposed to be obsolete by default? Why create item sets to counter sneaking players? Or item sets that buff cast time abilities? Or skills like Radiant Magelight?

No, highly doubtful.

Might be about definition. What I've meant with third party is that you're forced to work with what they provide to you. you're simply limited to what they provide. It is completely their choice (if implemented properly) what you do as addon author.

Third party applications (.exe files in general) do not have such boundaries in general. That's what you've seen when the CE *** happened. An addon wouldn't have been capable of this.

Btw. I don't know if discussing what makes sense and what not makes any sense there are so many things with every update where you can only ask yourself what the *** is wrong with them. So i stick here to "they verified it and they are fine with it" -> it is what they want their game to be and they are happy with it. If they want addon authors having access to that data, so be it. I don't consider anyone using it a cheater.

But then again, you may not like it and complain. Go ahead, it's fine for me. (as long as we can stop with name calling, denunciation and thread spaming)

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Or in your terms: If a game ships with a wallhack that has been implemented by the developer and that wallhack is allowed to use, it is simply part of the game. At this point it is a game mechanic and not a "wallhack" (btw. the naming would be different as "hack" implies there's something odd with it).

Yet Miat's addon (and other similar ones) aren't created by the developer, they're created by players seeking to exploit unfair advantages in PvP. Just like wallhacks in FPS games.

Right to a certain degree. They aren't created by the developer. The developer only created a function, which provides that information. They wouldn't have to do that if they wouldn't want that data to be available. Yet, they decided to do so. And still consider this function to be here after they've reviewed. It is part of the game. It is part of what you've bought and agreed with. Again, you don't have to like that, but if an API function has some sort of impact on skills, it is part of the game (from a definition point of view).

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

And that is why i compare it with using another skill you don't like, both are part of the game.

Exploits, flaws and bugs are part of the game too - until they're fixed

Comparing this to a "skill you dont like" would be similar to comparing Sharpened Maces from 2015 to a "skill you dont like" - in other words, it makes no sense.

I can understand if you can't equate these API functions to things like wallhacks, but your comparison is way off.

Read what I've written above. You can't compare a software bug to this function, in my opinion.

You are comparing a skill with a software bug. Doesn't work that way. There's no reason to believe the function we're talking here is buggy. And even if it is, consider it accepted (just like AC - i bet you're not complaining there, are you?).

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

And I say all this from a relatively neutral technical point of view. I personally don't care if they restrict the API in any way. maybe they should, maybe they should fix other 100 things first in their mess they've created. Unfortunately, i doubt any of this will happen.

Long story short: Feel free to complain, to not like that API. I'm fine with that, yet I consider this part of the game and therefore not cheating. and i think the comparison between "i don't like this api feature" and "i don't like that skill" is pretty accurate.

Yep, that's why I keep posting, why I made this thread and why I'll make new threads until this is resolved.

This game is not playable for me in its current state and won't be next patch either, or the patch after that as long as these API functions exist.

Well, interesting. In my opinion, there are like 100 bugs which should be addressed before i call this game enjoyable (the lack of alternatives is frustrating >_<). This function would have a very low spot on my list.

But anyway, keep on complaining. As i said, that's fine for me. I simply dislike this attitude of calling other players cheaters because feelings are more important than facts.

edit #1/2: typos
edit #3: the amount of typos is way too high >_<

Derra

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

laced wrote: »

That is the whole point of stealth, not to be seen. If you hate it that much, spend the time to build your toon to counter it. But you want to take the easy way out, dont want to put any time into countering it, and want to just have everything spoon fed. People have already named numerous methods to counter it, HELL, there are entire sets that are dedicated to it. If you hate stealth that much, you should use those. Expecting an uncounterable add on to do the work for you is just purely ridiculous.

HOW?

That´s the problem. Permanent stealth has huge implications when it can be utilized by any class and build.

How can i counter 5 people that have nothing better to do than waiting on one of their resources to attack players coming along.

Swtor has the same thing, perma stealth. AND YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO COUNTER ANYTHING FROM FIVE EXPERIENCED PLAYERS! Just wow.....The entitled me mentality here is so strong it is downright gross....

Swtor has classes that can permastealth. Not every build and every class that can permastealth.

That´s the point. I don´t want to counter anything to counter them. I want to see them so i can avoid them.

Not every class can perma stealth in this either.

I´m sorry but shall i make a video for you where i showcase how i can stealth for 2 hours straight on my sorc, DK, templar the first in light and the latter two in heavy armor with sword and board?

There is no timer to sneak. That literally means you can permanently stay invisible on any class or build.

And then you dont contribute or do anything at all. In which case this addon wouldnt even effect you. Good lord, please switch your brain on before making a comment like that.

Nevermind. You´re unable to understand where i´m going in this thoughtprocess and i can´t blame you.
I tend to forget that mmos attract all sorts of people and some happen to be a little further from the average human capabilities of thinking beyond eat, drink, fword.

Cheers matey enjoy your simple life

DDuke

@InvitationNotFound

Right, so it pretty much boils down to whether these things the API permits are intentional or not.

You mention they reviewed this addon - I say they didn't.

They only looked at the top most complained thing and adjusted that, without looking at all what else the addon and API permitted.

I bet they're not even aware that this shows stealthed opponents' cast timers.


Because any sane person who was aware that a 3rd party plugin could ruin entire playstyles, item sets & skills would restrict their API posthaste.

If you can find a statement by ZOS saying "we are fine with the API showing stealthed/out of FoV opponents' cast timer" then please show me.


We're looking at the usual case of ZOS not testing their things properly, nothing else.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Well, interesting. In my opinion, there are like 100 bugs which should be addressed before i call this game enjoyable (the lack of alternatives is frustrating >_<). This function would have a very low spot on my list.

It's interesting how I can tell based on that you either don't PvP much or don't play (or want to play) a bow build/dark flare magplar.

Not that the function doesn't affect other people, but those two (especially bow builds) are the most affected - PvP is practically unplayable.


That's to say, it'd be in top of your list too if you played one of these cast time oriented builds.

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

But anyway, keep on complaining. As i said, that's fine for me. I simply dislike this attitude of calling other players cheaters because feelings are more important than facts.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't call people cheaters for simply using this addon. Sheesh, that'd make me a cheater too


I call people cheaters for their attitudes, for trying to justify the existence of these API functions by saying things practically like "I dislike stealth*, thus it's fine I ruin the game for people who do like it with this addon".


*Even if the addon barely affects the stronger melee stealth builds. It just ruins bows & cast time abilities.

Publius_Scipio

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Again, all this back and forth is because the house let the players touch the deck of cards. That’s not a good thing. Paul Sage knew very well all these discussions would come. For some reason modding and addons seem to be necessary for some games to even be considered as possible successes these days. Players seem to demand that it be this way.

A real bad formula, especially in games with PvP and connected complicated systems like ESO. When you allow this you lose some quality control on your product. Unless of course we all lived in a perfect world and no one would ever think of getting shady, let alone in a game.

This conversation will never end until ZOS heavily restricts certain API, or just tells us that how things are currently is the way it will stay. Surly I give less than 1% chance ZOS would announce one day they are closing all API in Sage’s memory.

UI has always been ok with me. Then they added combat text and more recently buff tracker. More than I will ever need or want. I can't play with those addons where text is scrolling up and down all over the screen as if you had taken some bad pills and now are losing it.

InvitationNotFound

DDuke wrote: »

@InvitationNotFound

Right, so it pretty much boils down to whether these things the API permits are intentional or not.

You mention they reviewed this addon - I say they didn't.

They only looked at the top most complained thing and adjusted that, without looking at all what else the addon and API permitted.

Because any sane person who was aware that a 3rd party plugin could ruin entire playstyles, item sets & skills would restrict their API posthaste.

If you can find a statement by ZOS saying "we are fine with the API showing stealthed/out of FoV opponents' cast timer" then please show me.


We're looking at the usual case of ZOS not testing their things properly, nothing else.

Might be, but i doubt it. As far as I remember a few threads have been created after the addon was first released. The main issues were related to stealth and the notification of attacks from stealth. So it is likely that they looked at both, and as far as i remember (trying to find it later) ZOS commented on a few things. Yet, i doubt they did anything else then simply add a few words in the patch notes about the API change.

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Well, interesting. In my opinion, there are like 100 bugs which should be addressed before i call this game enjoyable (the lack of alternatives is frustrating >_<). This function would have a very low spot on my list.

It's interesting how I can tell based on that you either don't PvP much or don't play (or want to play) a bow build/dark flare magplar.

Not that the function doesn't affect other people, but those two (especially bow builds) are the most affected - PvP is practically unplayable.


That's to say, it'd be in top of your list too if you played one of these cast time oriented builds.

I'm approximately 5 days a week (often more) in pvp. Yet, you are right, i'm not a bowtard.

It is right that i'm not really affected by it, maybe that's the reason i don't care. but i consider loading screens / gap closer into loading screens making the game way more *** than this addon.

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

But anyway, keep on complaining. As i said, that's fine for me. I simply dislike this attitude of calling other players cheaters because feelings are more important than facts.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't call people cheaters for simply using this addon. Sheesh, that'd make me a cheater too


I call people cheaters for their attitudes, for trying to justify the existence of these API functions by saying things practically like "I dislike stealth, thus it's fine I ruin the game for people who do like it with this addon".

Fine for me I guess.

Kneighbors

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dunno why people really play this trash fest. Competitive player who likes hardcore PvP based on skills would never play it. PvP which is based on addons is really stupid. Long ago serious games implementing protection systems like Punkbuster to keep a fair game.

Having an addon which can show you disguised players before they are visually/audibly/physically detected? Are you for real?

They have a set in game which shortens the distance you can detect sneaking enemies. LOL. Here is an addon that will inform you in ample time when sneaking enemy tries to gank you. ZoS are just amateurs. If they were caring to develop high-end product they would make emergency suspension of servers to remove that addon as fast as they can.

No. You are wrong. Punkbuster wasn't there to keep a game fair. It was there to prevent cheats / hacks (in general third party applications). Punkbuster didn't care if the game logic or whatever the developers implemented was fair. Those are two completely different things.

Feel free to read my other posts on why addons are part of the game and this isn't an issue (technically seen, you might not like the game play or whatever, but your complaint is the same as saying i do not like skill xyz for whatever reason as it is simply part of the game) as i wont repeat myself over and over again.

Look, I think you already realized that I don't play PvP in ESO from my previous post although beyond ESO I was strictly PvP player who played different PvP games for 20 years and participated in pretty big events with nice prices for first places. So I know a thing or two about how PvP game supposed to look like to be fair, skill based and competitive. In short: ESO PvP nowhere near that and will never be with one of the factors amateur developers and accepting community.

But ok, not every PvP game must be serious. This is minor problem really.. The major problem is the direction of the game. Soon enough everyone will be using the same addons. Everyone will be having Miats. Everyone will have a warning on their screen and dodge seconds before they get a clue from where it is coming. Many skills will become obsolete. Noone will be using Snipe anymore. There will be builds without those skills at all, simply because they are no use anymore. Do you think this is cool? Well you will be there to check it out, not me. I'm not even going to touch it when I know I have to start by download add-on that is informing me on incoming attacks I don't even know which side they are coming from.

InvitationNotFound

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a heads up - in today's PTS patch, we've made an adjustment to the API that will have a direct impact on this addon (and others). Patch note as follows:

• Effects that last longer than 30 seconds now follow the same rules as effects that last less than 30 seconds: they are only available to player-made addons if they are cast by the player or cast on the player.

All i found in a few minutes in the initial Miat thread if I remember correctly. Guess that's more or less everything they considered worth changing. I think there were more comments but i can't find them. Btw. the thread should be full of analysis what the addon is exactly doing in which situation, so by simply reading through it, ZOS (should have) knew what the addon is about.

Kneighbors wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dunno why people really play this trash fest. Competitive player who likes hardcore PvP based on skills would never play it. PvP which is based on addons is really stupid. Long ago serious games implementing protection systems like Punkbuster to keep a fair game.

Having an addon which can show you disguised players before they are visually/audibly/physically detected? Are you for real?

They have a set in game which shortens the distance you can detect sneaking enemies. LOL. Here is an addon that will inform you in ample time when sneaking enemy tries to gank you. ZoS are just amateurs. If they were caring to develop high-end product they would make emergency suspension of servers to remove that addon as fast as they can.

No. You are wrong. Punkbuster wasn't there to keep a game fair. It was there to prevent cheats / hacks (in general third party applications). Punkbuster didn't care if the game logic or whatever the developers implemented was fair. Those are two completely different things.

Feel free to read my other posts on why addons are part of the game and this isn't an issue (technically seen, you might not like the game play or whatever, but your complaint is the same as saying i do not like skill xyz for whatever reason as it is simply part of the game) as i wont repeat myself over and over again.

Look, I think you already realized that I don't play PvP in ESO from my previous post although beyond ESO I was strictly PvP player who played different PvP games for 20 years and participated in pretty big events with nice prices for first places. So I know a thing or two about how PvP game supposed to look like to be fair, skill based and competitive. In short: ESO PvP nowhere near that and will never be with one of the factors amateur developers and accepting community.

Much wow

So... you say ESO PVP is broken? oh, that's news to me. Thank you captain obvious. Guess what, the addon is not the reason for that.

Kneighbors wrote: »

But ok, not every PvP game must be serious. This is minor problem really.. The major problem is the direction of the game. Soon enough everyone will be using the same addons. Everyone will be having Miats. Everyone will have a warning on their screen and dodge seconds before they get a clue from where it is coming. Many skills will become obsolete. Noone will be using Snipe anymore. There will be builds without those skills at all, simply because they are no use anymore. Do you think this is cool? Well you will be there to check it out, not me. I'm not even going to touch it when I know I have to start by download add-on that is informing me on incoming attacks I don't even know which side they are coming from.

Btw. did you miss the part where i said i don't really care if they change anything on the API? this doesn't mean that i like that part of the addon or that i'm advocating it.

And... unfortunately... I have to ask... can I have your stuff?

DDuke

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a heads up - in today's PTS patch, we've made an adjustment to the API that will have a direct impact on this addon (and others). Patch note as follows:

• Effects that last longer than 30 seconds now follow the same rules as effects that last less than 30 seconds: they are only available to player-made addons if they are cast by the player or cast on the player.

All i found in a few minutes in the initial Miat thread if I remember correctly. Guess that's more or less everything they considered worth changing. I think there were more comments but i can't find them. Btw. the thread should be full of analysis what the addon is exactly doing in which situation, so by simply reading through it, ZOS (should have) knew what the addon is about.

What makes you think they actually read our threads?

Just look at how all our player feedback gets implemented (example from this patch alone: Agony changes).

KingMagaw

Derra wrote: »

KingMagaw wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

They didn't have that issue when Cheat Engine was a thing (hell, it still might be but I haven't seen those cheaters in a while).

No offence but you didn't/won't see them ever, until a player flew around spamming meteors and slapped you in the face with it.

They´re hiding pretty well considering i´ve never met a player i thought was using cheatengine except for the weekend when everybody did.

On that note: Can we finally turn meteor into a spammable. Looked way too cool.

Not really hiding that well ) ZoS added in algorithms to the game to detect certain max stat thresholds that are not achievable in game, like 1 million stamina, 10k stamina regen and such. There is no dynamic calculation for what your wearing to what your stats should be so if your stats are under this margin then your under the most basic detection window. To say Cheat Engine isn't used now would be very naive.

And again, the amount of private addons being used that will not be released to the general public is quite extensive. There is no reason why authors would release them, especially with what happened to Miatts in which it was over performing for some time before released/looked at by ZoS.

UnseenTruth

the most cheating was a situation with addon Atlas or ... i dont remember may be it was another addon
when old author retired and new athor implemented a code that allow addon to sent a GOLD by mail automatically to the author on the login, without even any notification about it to user
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/142073/do-not-use-updated-atlas-addon

it was closed by zeni pretty quick

Miats comparing to that, just a good addon to have

Dorrino

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

UnseenTruth

meanwhile

Downloads 51,893

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

That sounds more like an oversight than anything else.

Why else would they only remove heavy attacks and then leave the rest of the cast times alone?


I bet they thought removing that function would fix things, but as so often happens they were wrong.

Chances are they're still unaware your addon lets people see others' cast timers, wouldn't surprise me given how little they care about our feedback/threads/bug reports in general.

SodanTok

Removing heavy attack channel from stealth, but keeping any other channel there does not sound to me like act of someone that decided this is the way it should be. More like act of someone that went to first stealth channel related function (or whatever) and after changing it, saved the file and closed it.

Added that with the theme of complains at that time (stealth notifications), I would not be surprised if they just spent exactly 0 seconds thinking about out of stealth channel or anything really that was not the main talking point.

Probably the same amount of time they spent reading any other thread afterwards.

Publius_Scipio

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

I do at least like that you don't deny you used your addon back when it was telling you of people stealthed around you and all that good stuff.

Publius_Scipio

UnseenTruth wrote: »

meanwhile

Downloads 51,893

Anything for that extra edge. PEDs, HGH, and roids injected: 35,675,901

Edit: Whoops, more like 45,035,675,901

SodanTok

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

UnseenTruth wrote: »

meanwhile

Downloads 51,893

Anything for that extra edge. PEDs, HGH, and roids injected: 35,675,901

Edit: Whoops, more like 45,035,675,901

The mentality is different in this one. People that wanted edge were the first one to go. Then time passed without repercussion or changes and then people that do not want disadvantage go.

It would be far different if this addon or similar were secretly used and abused (like it probably was all the time since 2014)

Dorrino

As long as you're trying to justify something that you like, you are definitely going to find oversights and conspiracies all along:)

But good luck pushing your agenda.

I'd want to get any official response as well, since, unlike you i always need to know if i'm wasting my time making something better that will be gone at any moment.

That's quite uncomfortable:)

My current assumption is that they did what they wanted to do. Heavy attacks specifically were abused against addon users, unlike anything else.

But yet again, if you approach the subject from the point 'how make something stop' instead of analyzing 'why does it even exist' you'll get quite far in no time:)

Publius_Scipio

SodanTok wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

UnseenTruth wrote: »

meanwhile

Downloads 51,893

Anything for that extra edge. PEDs, HGH, and roids injected: 35,675,901

Edit: Whoops, more like 45,035,675,901

The mentality is different in this one. People that wanted edge were the first one to go. Then time passed without repercussion or changes and then people that do not want disadvantage go.

It would be far different if this addon or similar were secretly used and abused (like it probably was all the time since 2014)

There are shady people out there in the world. This isn't new news to anyone. A video game is just a game, you don't go to jail, you get a ban. I think in ESO most "bans" are in actuality temporary suspensions if I am not mistaken, and any permanent bans were circumvented by simply purchasing the game again and creating a new account.

I don't believe ZOS is "stupid" as many seem to claim especially in these forums. I don't believe ZOS isn't aware of what players say in game or here on the forums. And I don't believe solutions (like ones for this API discussion) are simple or come easy. ESO has many systems that all work with one another and ZOS can't simply flip switches on or off and call it a day. If ZOS were to further restrict Miat's addon for example it might affect other things, other addons, that ZOS doesn't want to mess with.

I'd say that most likely sums up the truth and reality of the whole situation. I don't believe ZOS wouldn't agree that Miat's addon as is isn't an advantage to a player using it versus one who isn't.

InvitationNotFound

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a heads up - in today's PTS patch, we've made an adjustment to the API that will have a direct impact on this addon (and others). Patch note as follows:

• Effects that last longer than 30 seconds now follow the same rules as effects that last less than 30 seconds: they are only available to player-made addons if they are cast by the player or cast on the player.

All i found in a few minutes in the initial Miat thread if I remember correctly. Guess that's more or less everything they considered worth changing. I think there were more comments but i can't find them. Btw. the thread should be full of analysis what the addon is exactly doing in which situation, so by simply reading through it, ZOS (should have) knew what the addon is about.

What makes you think they actually read our threads?

Just look at how all our player feedback gets implemented (example from this patch alone: Agony changes).

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

That sounds more like an oversight than anything else.

Why else would they only remove heavy attacks and then leave the rest of the cast times alone?


I bet they thought removing that function would fix things, but as so often happens they were wrong.

Chances are they're still unaware your addon lets people see others' cast timers, wouldn't surprise me given how little they care about our feedback/threads/bug reports in general.

Actually i saw that post he describes, as far as i remember.

I know what you're talking about, when you say they don't read or ignore us. certainly true to a certain extent. but usually when they answer they did a few things. furthermore, other people are involved, when it comes to the API. and currently i consider the guy responsible (or at least a team member) way more competent and communicative then the rest of zos (unfortunately you wont find him on the forums).

So no, everything indicates that they are okay with the current state.

SodanTok

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

UnseenTruth wrote: »

meanwhile

Downloads 51,893

Anything for that extra edge. PEDs, HGH, and roids injected: 35,675,901

Edit: Whoops, more like 45,035,675,901

The mentality is different in this one. People that wanted edge were the first one to go. Then time passed without repercussion or changes and then people that do not want disadvantage go.

It would be far different if this addon or similar were secretly used and abused (like it probably was all the time since 2014)

There are shady people out there in the world. This isn't new news to anyone. A video game is just a game, you don't go to jail, you get a ban. I think in ESO most "bans" are in actuality temporary suspensions if I am not mistaken, and any permanent bans were circumvented by simply purchasing the game again and creating a new account.

I don't believe ZOS is "stupid" as many seem to claim especially in these forums. I don't believe ZOS isn't aware of what players say in game or here on the forums. And I don't believe solutions (like ones for this API discussion) are simple or come easy. ESO has many systems that all work with one another and ZOS can't simply flip switches on or off and call it a day. If ZOS were to further restrict Miat's addon for example it might affect other things, other addons, that ZOS doesn't want to mess with.

I'd say that most likely sums up the truth and reality of the whole situation. I don't believe ZOS wouldn't agree that Miat's addon as is isn't an advantage to a player using it versus one who isn't.

You make it sound harder than it is It is addon. It gets information from API. ZoS decides what information is obtainable from API. There is no addon that is using information about channelled attacks from player for something good other than exactly this. There is also no reason anyone should ever need to know it.
There are 3 tiers of information: information about stealthed channels, information about channels overall and information about attacks aimed at you.
You can, if you try hard enough, find positive reasons for having information about attacks flying to you. Stuff like deaf players, audio/visual effect overload in big battles, lags, bugs, ...
But there is plain nothing out of having information about channels. And there is nothing that says that the API has to give channel information so the "attack is on the way to you" notification works. These two tiers of warnings are there for one reason and one reason only - they dont care.

And that is if we totally just focus on the channel stuff.


Not to forget, ZoS does not act like this addon exist. Imagine there is addon that makes all your hits hit through Minor/Major Evasion (i know this is crazy). If we used similiar ZoS reaction to that scenario it would be no response and one patch they increase dodge chance of Evasion by 5%.
Addon that shows you all stealthed players? Decreased sneak detection by 1m
Addon that automatically blocks for 1.9sec out of 2 (so regen is never blocked)? Block now drains stamina regen instead of blocking it

btw I predicted 15 pages and no ZoS response. We are over it. In one working week. On PTS forum. We can safely assume majority of ZoS devs/staff saw it.

SanTii.92

So why is this thread on the PTS sub again?

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

As long as you're trying to justify something that you like, you are definitely going to find oversights and conspiracies all along:)

But good luck pushing your agenda.

Could say the exact same about you and your "they reviewed it and said it was fine" (they never said showing stealthed opponents' cast timers was fine).

It's called confirmation bias btw.

Dorrino wrote: »

I'd want to get any official response as well, since, unlike you i always need to know if i'm wasting my time making something better that will be gone at any moment.

That's quite uncomfortable:)

Well gee, poor you. I almost shed a tear.

Meanwhile your addon is preventing people from even playing the game if they want to PvP with bow build.

Dorrino wrote: »

My current assumption is that they did what they wanted to do. Heavy attacks specifically were abused against addon users, unlike anything else.

Yeah, they just removed heavy attacks from notifications, which are used in the strongest, most likely to instagib stealth combo in the game (cloak->heavy attack+SA->Incap with Selene) and left them in to make weaker things like Snipe, Dark Flare & Crystal Blast unusable.

Because in some other universe that makes total sense.

Dorrino wrote: »

But yet again, if you approach the subject from the point 'how make something stop' instead of analyzing 'why does it even exist' you'll get quite far in no time:)

"Why does it even exist"?

Could that be because some toxic individual (oh, don't worry - you're not alone in that category, there's also the people using custom addons) didn't like stealth builds and decided that the people who do enjoy them shouldn't play them, proceeding to abuse flaws & loopholes in the API in order to make those builds unplayable?

I don't know, just a guess. Maybe there's some hidden, deeper meaning somewhere.

DDuke

SanTii.92 wrote: »

So why is this thread on the PTS sub again?

Because we're approaching another patch cycle with this addon still in the game.


The API needs to be restricted before this patch goes Live, else Asylum Bow & all their work on trying to make Crystal Blast worth using will be in vain.

Oh, and all cast time builds will still be unusable.

DDuke

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a heads up - in today's PTS patch, we've made an adjustment to the API that will have a direct impact on this addon (and others). Patch note as follows:

• Effects that last longer than 30 seconds now follow the same rules as effects that last less than 30 seconds: they are only available to player-made addons if they are cast by the player or cast on the player.

All i found in a few minutes in the initial Miat thread if I remember correctly. Guess that's more or less everything they considered worth changing. I think there were more comments but i can't find them. Btw. the thread should be full of analysis what the addon is exactly doing in which situation, so by simply reading through it, ZOS (should have) knew what the addon is about.

What makes you think they actually read our threads?

Just look at how all our player feedback gets implemented (example from this patch alone: Agony changes).

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

That sounds more like an oversight than anything else.

Why else would they only remove heavy attacks and then leave the rest of the cast times alone?


I bet they thought removing that function would fix things, but as so often happens they were wrong.

Chances are they're still unaware your addon lets people see others' cast timers, wouldn't surprise me given how little they care about our feedback/threads/bug reports in general.

Actually i saw that post he describes, as far as i remember.

I know what you're talking about, when you say they don't read or ignore us. certainly true to a certain extent. but usually when they answer they did a few things. furthermore, other people are involved, when it comes to the API. and currently i consider the guy responsible (or at least a team member) way more competent and communicative then the rest of zos (unfortunately you wont find him on the forums).

So no, everything indicates that they are okay with the current state.

No. You don't get to use the word "communicative" when after 15 pages & 87 agrees on the post we still have no word on this subject.

Nor the word "competent" after having this API loophole in the game for so long.

InvitationNotFound

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

As a heads up - in today's PTS patch, we've made an adjustment to the API that will have a direct impact on this addon (and others). Patch note as follows:

• Effects that last longer than 30 seconds now follow the same rules as effects that last less than 30 seconds: they are only available to player-made addons if they are cast by the player or cast on the player.

All i found in a few minutes in the initial Miat thread if I remember correctly. Guess that's more or less everything they considered worth changing. I think there were more comments but i can't find them. Btw. the thread should be full of analysis what the addon is exactly doing in which situation, so by simply reading through it, ZOS (should have) knew what the addon is about.

What makes you think they actually read our threads?

Just look at how all our player feedback gets implemented (example from this patch alone: Agony changes).

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

DDuke wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

*lurks again*

About channeled attacks notifications.

This has nothing to do with the API functions per se.

The game supplies different events to game clients.

In this case the game supplies EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT with all appropriate information when a channel starts.

About ZOS review of the addon.

Besides already mentioned, in the result of the review they stopped providing EVENT_COMBAT_EVENT for stealthed heavy attacks channel start, but left all other abilities channel starts intact.

If that is not an indication of what should and shouldn't be in the game, i'm not sure what is:)

But carry on please

ps. They did as proper review of the addon as ZOS can do, because at that time they made a post on the forums describing what addon does in details (mostly correct details).

pps. You can't get info about opponents ultimate points, because all the functions that return those return nothing for anybody besides yourself.

That sounds more like an oversight than anything else.

Why else would they only remove heavy attacks and then leave the rest of the cast times alone?


I bet they thought removing that function would fix things, but as so often happens they were wrong.

Chances are they're still unaware your addon lets people see others' cast timers, wouldn't surprise me given how little they care about our feedback/threads/bug reports in general.

Actually i saw that post he describes, as far as i remember.

I know what you're talking about, when you say they don't read or ignore us. certainly true to a certain extent. but usually when they answer they did a few things. furthermore, other people are involved, when it comes to the API. and currently i consider the guy responsible (or at least a team member) way more competent and communicative then the rest of zos (unfortunately you wont find him on the forums).

So no, everything indicates that they are okay with the current state.

No. You don't get to use the word "communicative" when after 15 pages & 87 agrees on the post we still have no word on this subject.

Nor the word "competent" after having this API loophole in the game for so long.

You know... the world is bigger than the ZOS forum. there are other places and other people.

Dorrino

@DDuke

I'm genuinely curious, do you expect personal insults and invalidation of other people participating in your thread to be a supportive point towards your agenda?:)

Do you expect the readers to think 'oh, that guy is so strong, because he makes personal attacks against some other guy, that makes his point valid'?

I'm participating in this thread partially to help with misconceptions and partially to add more pages to it to help you get heard.

But let's see how 'evil Miat' approach is going to help you:P It didn't help other people in all previous threads. Maybe they didn't express their disgust with me personally strong enough:)