Maintenance for the week of January 6:
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• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – January 6
• NA megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 8:00AM EST (13:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for maintenance – January 8, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 13:00 UTC (8:00AM EST)
We will be performing maintenance on the PTS on Tuesday at 10:00AM EST (15:00 UTC).
Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!
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Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome, though?
How can anyone argue with the " Because I and my add ons are awesome " argument.4 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Why not ? We see bots auto attack all the time .
Bots don't use addons. Bots use totally separate software.
I told you what addons can do, specifically.
There is this thing called the internet, which we are currently using, to research this kind of stuff. Pretty sure a lot of them have after hearing about it, and they made an informed reply. But hey, what do I know, I only think about myself. : insert sarcasm :
They did hear about it. That doesn't make their opinion informed.
Many people who use it don't properly understand what it does and why.
And since the addon got a quite noticeable stigma at its original state, most of the people who comment on it just follow that stigma without making their own opinion. Just like @LegendaryMage above your comment.
I wonder why there was such a stigma. Seriously. I...can't, just, lol.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree.
Repeat.
Because its original iteration was much more gamechanging than the current one. People are conservative and frankly got scared.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree.
Repeat.
Again, like clockwork.
It benefits those you enjoy it benefits.
People disagree that it benefits them when they use it?
Btw, no addon is capable of auto-blocking, auto-sprinting, auto-attacking and generally any auto-combat action.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree -with you
Repeat.
Again, like clockwork.
And that's totally fine that they disagree with me.
What am i supposed to do with that, besides talking to them and sharing my context?
Their context is obvious. Ganking is a bit harder due to higher awareness of the targets. I regret that it caused frustration.0 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome instead, though?
So why not make an add-on that presents information in a convenient way and end it there? Why tap into all these other things 99% of other public add-ons don't even feature? I understand what the add-on does, don't worry about that.2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Why not ? We see bots auto attack all the time .
Bots don't use addons. Bots use totally separate software.
I told you what addons can do, specifically.
There is this thing called the internet, which we are currently using, to research this kind of stuff. Pretty sure a lot of them have after hearing about it, and they made an informed reply. But hey, what do I know, I only think about myself. : insert sarcasm :
They did hear about it. That doesn't make their opinion informed.
Many people who use it don't properly understand what it does and why.
And since the addon got a quite noticeable stigma at its original state, most of the people who comment on it just follow that stigma without making their own opinion. Just like @LegendaryMage above your comment.
I wonder why there was such a stigma. Seriously. I...can't, just, lol.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree.
Repeat.
Because its original iteration was much more gamechanging than the current one. People are conservative and frankly got scared.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree.
Repeat.
Again, like clockwork.
It benefits those you enjoy it benefits.
People disagree that it benefits them when they use it?
Btw, no addon is capable of auto-blocking, auto-sprinting, auto-attacking and generally any auto-combat action.
This is pointless.
You will say " Oh it benefits everyone and anyone that disagrees is selfish, igorant and wrong"
Most people will and do disagree -with you
Repeat.
Again, like clockwork.
And that's totally fine that they disagree with me.
What am i supposed to do with that, besides talking to them and sharing my context?
Their context is obvious. Ganking is a bit harder due to higher awareness of the targets. I regret that it caused frustration.
Oh . I didn't know , I've never looked into how they work . I just assumed they use the same kind of system . Good to know no one one can auto pilot PVP with any addon .0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Not worth arguing with someone that possesses this mindset:Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.
Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.
And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.
It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.
It's not about being bad. It's about being better.
Though kinda hilarious how he thinks his addon made ganking harder when it doesn't affect what has been the strongest form of ganking since 2015 (melee) at all
Edited by DDuke on October 7, 2017 12:34AM1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome, though?
How can anyone argue with the " Because I and my add ons are awesome " argument.
It's not an argument. It's my personal opinion.
Are we getting to a point when i'm supposed to double check my personal opinions with the community?:P0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome instead, though?
So why not make an add-on that presents information in a convenient way and end it there? Why tap into all these other things 99% of other public add-ons don't even feature? I understand what the add-on does, don't worry about that.
And that's exactly what i did. Addons are not capable of doing anything else.Not worth arguing with someone that possesses this mindset:Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.
Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.
And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.
It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.
It's not about being bad. It's about being better.
Though kinda hilarious how he thinks his addon made ganking harder when it doesn't affect what has been the strongest form of ganking since 2015 (melee) at all
It did, before ZOS fixed that. Blame ZOS:)
That's the nature of addons. You can't do what is not designed to be possible to do.Edited by Dorrino on October 7, 2017 12:36AM3 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭(Tail end of a conversation between myself and dorrino, I have yet to hear a response, but feel that it's best to relegate the conversation to a single thread, such that neither of us has to swap around much, this was me defending the "gank" playstyle and how some edge-cases of his addon's cast-timer indicator adversely effect this playstyle by giving players a heads up that is only visible in the API and not visible anywhere in the UI. Namely: Cast-time abilities from players that are in stealth (snipe, uppercut, CFrags, etc.)).
@Dorrino
Eh, one thing about online text is it's hard to pass intonation along with all the words spoken. Ya seem like a good guy, ya do.
Listen. We certainly have differing pathways when it comes to how we approach a given type of fight. You obviously have spent a lot of time perfecting your combat abilities to the point where you stomp groups of 5 like its nothing.
I understand that our playstyles differ, but what I don't understand is how you don't see the hypocrisy in your own statements.
"What is off here - is strong defense of this playstyle. As if nothing else works."
The reason I am defending this playstyle so hard is through the use of your addon, it hurts a players ability to choose this playstyle. Yes, other playstyles work, but to actively cripple a playstyle in defense of your own ideals of what is the 'proper' playstyle is hypocritical. You are defending your own position as strongly as I am mine, under the assumption that yours is the only way that people should approach combat.
Many different playstyles work, yours included. But what your addon does is hinder the ability of playstyles that are not your own.
It'd be like myself trying to defend a radar that tells me if a player is secluded or not. (not that I gank players who are just alone in Cyrodiil (unless they're on the tail-end of a zerg)). Both are a means of more information, both give the player an edge when it comes to their own personal safety that isn't seen in the vanilla UI, and both can be used for less than 'ideal' combat scenarios. And both cannot be countered in any way shape or form due to their nature of being an addon scouring API data.
Now, I wish to identify that this is in regards to the edge-cases brought up against the cast-time portion of your addon. Not your addon as a whole.Edited by Avran_Sylt on October 7, 2017 1:01AM4 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm going to post once more because I don't like what I am seeing . Mainly with Dorrino being ganged up on . I downloaded Miat's months ago to see how it functioned after the API change . I use burst attacks with my NB so the possibility of channeled attacks being spotted eluded me because it was never something I used on Magblade . I knew heavy attacks from stealth could be spotted but I found it funny messing with people using the addon by faking some incoming heavy attacks but I still didn't like anything giving away a stealthed player . Because it's a pro stealth game . I purchased it knowing that going in .
The features that were added that showed icons of forts and castles without bringing up the map was nice . That was my favorite part and no big deal against game play . Nice feature . Even the counter was nice just get real numbers of foes and allies in a fight . Another good feature with the names now removed . I didn't like it was adding in stealth players but whatever , I could live that . So the addon has some positive sides and credit given to @Dorrino for those .
Just recently learning that the addon gives info on stealthed channeled abilities is something I don't like in it . To me that can be build or class breaking . Miat does not agree with and that is fine . I am not mad at Miat or going to gang up on him with everyone else and start the decimation of his character over something ZOS has scrutinized and allowed . I'm not going to start calling people at ZoS names either but strongly urge them to reconsider the amount of info that API releases . I walked away from PVP mainly for bigger issues like performance and loading screens but this is not something I enjoy either so it makes me even happier to have left PVP for a different MMO . That is how I vote or solve my issues . Not by being mean and insulting to another player or the game company to force what I think is best for the game we share .
So I just want to say that because this topic will only get ignored and also just bring misery to players and games are not supposed to create miserable times . So I urge my friends and fellow players passionate about PVP and eso to try to debate the topic and not the people . That's all I have to say about it .4 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome, though?
How can anyone argue with the " Because I and my add ons are awesome " argument.
It's not an argument. It's my personal opinion.
Are we getting to a point when i'm supposed to double check my personal opinions with the community?:P
The issue is that this addon is presenting something to the player that they normally would never be able to see, anywhere given the games base UI. The opponent would literally have to be unstealthed for a player to see the cast-time to be shown in the base UI. In essence, it gives you a poor-mans stealth alert (for a second).
In essence, providing a combative skill to the game via an addon. It isn't something where it takes time to react to (like keep updates, attacks), but something that can be acted upon immediately for instant results.Edited by Avran_Sylt on October 7, 2017 1:05AM2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I'm going to post once more because I don't like what I am seeing . Mainly with Dorrino being ganged up on . I downloaded Miat's months ago to see how it functioned after the API change . I use burst attacks with my NB so the possibility of channeled attacks being spotted eluded me because it was never something I used on Magblade . I knew heavy attacks from stealth could be spotted but I found it funny messing with people using the addon by faking some incoming heavy attacks but I still didn't like anything giving away a stealthed player . Because it's a pro stealth game . I purchased it knowing that going in .
The features that were added that showed icons of forts and castles without bringing up the map was nice . That was my favorite part and no big deal against game play . Nice feature . Even the counter was nice just get real numbers of foes and allies in a fight . Another good feature with the names now removed . I didn't like it was adding in stealth players but whatever , I could live that . So the addon has some positive sides and credit given to @Dorrino for those .
Just recently learning that the addon gives info on stealthed channeled abilities is something I don't like in it . To me that can be build or class breaking . Miat does not agree with and that is fine . I am not mad at Miat or going to gang up on him with everyone else and start the decimation of his character over something ZOS has scrutinized and allowed . I'm not going to start calling people at ZoS names either but strongly urge them to reconsider the amount of info that API releases . I walked away from PVP mainly for bigger issues like performance and loading screens but this is not something I enjoy either so it makes me even happier to have left PVP for a different MMO . That is how I vote or solve my issues . Not by being mean and insulting to another player or the game company to force what I think is best for the game we share .
So I just want to say that because this topic will only get ignored and also just bring misery to players and games are not supposed to create miserable times . So I urge my friends and fellow players passionate about PVP and eso to try to debate the topic and not the people . That's all I have to say about it.
Well, it's not like debating the topic really works (not for the lack of trying), you just get back things like "educate yourself" "l2p" and lies about "ZOS approving this addon" when debating things with person X.
The conclusion I've drawn: better just ignore person X to avoid too much drama.
I wish I had another MMO to move to, I really do. I'd be a whole lot less angry right now.
Won't be until next year~ that I get another MMO to play (I'm the kind of person who needs to be there from the beginning), a MMO with multiple stealth classes (let's hope no addon developer there decides he doesn't like stealth & ruins it for everyone).
But yes, Dorrino's addon has some nice features as well. It's only the function that shows opponent's cast timers that's wrong with it.
To be honest, I'd argue it's unfair out of stealth as well, since you can no longer "hide" cast animations by standing behind pets or jumping etc, so it essentially takes away from player skill there as well (not to mention allowing you to dodge frags etc that fly in from out of your FoV).
2 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭LegendaryMage wrote: »LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome instead, though?
So why not make an add-on that presents information in a convenient way and end it there? Why tap into all these other things 99% of other public add-ons don't even feature? I understand what the add-on does, don't worry about that.
And that's exactly what i did. Addons are not capable of doing anything else.Not worth arguing with someone that possesses this mindset:Situational awareness, positioning and paying attention are part of player skill. The addon takes away that. Again, its that simple.
Mistakes not getting punished is the reason why PVP is so bad. You can correct your mistakes. You made a mistake and you took the hit, cc or whatever but you are still alive. You react and get urself back in the fight. Thats also player skill and thats how you correct mistakes. Not by an addon telling you the mistake you did so you can react as if it never happened.
And i would insist that if an addon correct mistakes on the verge of human perception we need more and better addons like this, because there're some limits to perception you can't overcome.
It stops being 'ill use an addon instead of learning' and instead becomes 'i'll use an addon to perceive something i wouldn't be able to perceive otherwise due to limitations of the default ui'.
It's not about being bad. It's about being better.
Though kinda hilarious how he thinks his addon made ganking harder when it doesn't affect what has been the strongest form of ganking since 2015 (melee) at all
It did, before ZOS fixed that. Blame ZOS:)
That's the nature of addons. You can't do what is not designed to be possible to do.
No, that's not what you did. Displaying information after it happens is one thing. Displaying information about something that is going to happen is completely different.
If you and me are in PVP and I'm positioned behind you, you're trying to run away from me and I'm trying to frag you in the back, how in the world is it fair to me that you KNOW exactly when to press block or dodge to avoid being hit?
Think about it for a minute and tell me in what scenario is this fair to me as your opponent? Because it's technically possible and in the game currently?
Your logic is completely flawed and it is absolutely clear to me why you did this in the first place. You needed it and you're not the kind of a player that will keep away from exploits. It's tempting and too easy to give in, and so you did.
Didn't the API allow you to see stealthed players in the past too? And if it did, for how long have you been playing like that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's true, that sounds like a major exploit to me.
You see, this is exactly the problem with people like you.
You don't care what's good for the players, you'll use whatever you can in whatever grey area you find yourself in. If ZOS one day allows cheat engine to be freely used, you'd be one of the first ones to do it according to your quote.
It's obvious that you made this because you needed it. Without it you were having difficulties in PVP and you couldn't compete with better players. Anyone who depends on crutches or exploits like this, is the same.
And next time you try to discredit me as someone who might not know much about PVP, well just keep in mind I don't need your addon to tell me when a frag is coming behind my back.
7 -
WreckfulAbandon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I'm going to post once more because I don't like what I am seeing . Mainly with Dorrino being ganged up on . I downloaded Miat's months ago to see how it functioned after the API change . I use burst attacks with my NB so the possibility of channeled attacks being spotted eluded me because it was never something I used on Magblade . I knew heavy attacks from stealth could be spotted but I found it funny messing with people using the addon by faking some incoming heavy attacks but I still didn't like anything giving away a stealthed player . Because it's a pro stealth game . I purchased it knowing that going in .
The features that were added that showed icons of forts and castles without bringing up the map was nice . That was my favorite part and no big deal against game play . Nice feature . Even the counter was nice just get real numbers of foes and allies in a fight . Another good feature with the names now removed . I didn't like it was adding in stealth players but whatever , I could live that . So the addon has some positive sides and credit given to @Dorrino for those .
Just recently learning that the addon gives info on stealthed channeled abilities is something I don't like in it . To me that can be build or class breaking . Miat does not agree with and that is fine . I am not mad at Miat or going to gang up on him with everyone else and start the decimation of his character over something ZOS has scrutinized and allowed . I'm not going to start calling people at ZoS names either but strongly urge them to reconsider the amount of info that API releases . I walked away from PVP mainly for bigger issues like performance and loading screens but this is not something I enjoy either so it makes me even happier to have left PVP for a different MMO . That is how I vote or solve my issues . Not by being mean and insulting to another player or the game company to force what I think is best for the game we share .
So I just want to say that because this topic will only get ignored and also just bring misery to players and games are not supposed to create miserable times . So I urge my friends and fellow players passionate about PVP and eso to try to debate the topic and not the people . That's all I have to say about it .
+1
and until ZOS officially addresses API functionality
/threadPC NA
All my comments are regarding PvP1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Just recently learning that the addon gives info on stealthed channeled abilities is something I don't like in it . To me that can be build or class breaking . Miat does not agree with and that is fine . I am not mad at Miat or going to gang up on him with everyone else and start the decimation of his character over something ZOS has scrutinized and allowed . I'm not going to start calling people at ZoS names either but strongly urge them to reconsider the amount of info that API releases . I walked away from PVP mainly for bigger issues like performance and loading screens but this is not something I enjoy either so it makes me even happier to have left PVP for a different MMO . That is how I vote or solve my issues . Not by being mean and insulting to another player or the game company to force what I think is best for the game we share .
I thank you for this part.
I do understand that some people are very much concerned with stealthed attacks. They have multiple ways to validate their concerns.
The thing is i am not the target to direct them to. I'm a player that did something he, personally, considers awesome. I released it to public purely because i liked other people to share it.
There's literally not much else there.
And again and again, it's not my choice that ZOS designed the API the way they did. I like it, some other people like it as well, yet other people don't like it. And that's all good.
The subject of the discussion, for me at least, is justifying different types of approaches to pvp UI design paradigms. I'm fine with either, they are not crucial. They are mere conveniences, albeit of a noticeable scale and implications.
That's what these notifications are for me.Avran_Sylt wrote: »LegendaryMage wrote: »So that's why you're defending it so much.
I'm 'defending it' because it's awesome. I developed it, because it'd be awesome to have. I released it, so some other people would feel awesome to have it.
I don't do and don't defend stuff that i don't find awesome.LegendaryMage wrote: »Instead of using your coding skills to code something that can actually help (in a good way) other players, you make this crap? Seriously?
I did. Check my esoui profile. Anything there falls into your requirement.LegendaryMage wrote: »Do I have any PVP skill? What does it matter if I have any PVP skill or not, I saw your work and know what it does. I have enough experience (and common sense) to understand how idiotic it is. What is ignorant about my opinion?
Since you call it idiotic and generally started with throwing around profanities, i can only assume you both don't understand what the addon does and you don't understand how pvp works. Thus my question.LegendaryMage wrote: »Also tell me, why would you need this if you're any good in PVP?
Because it's awesome. I like the information to be presented in a convenient way.
I'm not sure how can you need any addon at all?
I can play pvp without UI. I don't like it, but i'm more than capable to do that. Why would i not play with something awesome, though?
How can anyone argue with the " Because I and my add ons are awesome " argument.
It's not an argument. It's my personal opinion.
Are we getting to a point when i'm supposed to double check my personal opinions with the community?:P
The issue is that this addon is presenting something to the player that they normally would never be able to see, anywhere given the games base UI. The opponent would literally have to be unstealthed for a player to see the cast-time to be shown in the base UI. In essence, it gives you a poor-mans stealth alert (for a second).
In essence, providing a combative skill to the game via an addon. It isn't something where it takes time to react to (like keep updates, attacks), but something that can be acted upon immediately for instant results.
And this is exactly where the above-mentioned paradigms clash.
One paradigms understands UI design purely from the standpoint of ZOS provided UI. Whatever ZOS did not provided themselves is 'unorthodox', wrong, shouldn't be there.
The other paradigm takes UI as a combination of ZOS UI and ZOS API and all the varieties of different UI solutions that might follow from the API.
It's basically the question of allowing any sort of custom UI modifications in a (at least perceivably) competitive environment or accepting only the 'canon' or whatever ZOS themselves released.
I have seen both types of mmos. With both UI paradigms. All those mmos had a noticeable chuck of competitive pvp content. That's why from my experience both paradigm work, even though it might seem that one should come on top. None does.
Sorry, @Avran_Sylt for not relying to your last PM, but my reply would be the same reiteration of the above-described paradigm.
You're totally correct within your paradigm, just as well as i'm correct within mine.
I don't see a common subject to argue about since both of them work.
ZOS themselves quite obviously follows the second UI paradigm. UI + API. I just follow them.
Once again i'm sincerely sorry if my work caused any amount of frustration in anybody. This wasn't and couldn't be a goal of mine. The goal was to make something that i consider awesome. And, from my point of view, i've succeeded at it.1 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Dorrino
The edge-cases present in the cast-time portion of your addon circumvent a gameplay mechanic available within the game (stealth, or hiding your chracter from your opponent).
You assume that this is intentional. You also assumed that it was also intentional for the stealth based portion of your addon prior. I honestly don't care too much as I'm more PvE, but I dislike ignorance of past history.
@ZOS_GinaBruno
I hate to be a bother, but is there a specific person with whom we could converse on whether or not it would be possible to hide certain API information about a player if they are in stealth?Edited by Avran_Sylt on October 7, 2017 1:40AM3 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭To be honest, I'd argue it's unfair out of stealth as well, since you can no longer "hide" cast animations by standing behind pets or jumping etc, so it essentially takes away from player skill there as well (not to mention allowing you to dodge frags etc that fly in from out of your FoV).LegendaryMage wrote: »No, that's not what you did. Displaying information after it happens is one thing. Displaying information about something that is going to happen is completely different.
If you and me are in PVP and I'm positioned behind you, you're trying to run away from me and I'm trying to frag you in the back, how in the world is it fair to me that you KNOW exactly when to press block or dodge to avoid being hit?
I think this is the same point.
The problem with this point is that it pushed forward the concept of fairness. And since different people consider different things to be 'fair' and 'unfair' in my mind it can't be a basis for rational discussion and instead becomes a matter of preference.
Say, i'd prefer to know about anything that is directed to my character. Because that's my preference. I don't see a way to refute it without relying on purely emotional pressure, which at best, might just make me scared and stop replying.LegendaryMage wrote: »Think about it for a minute and tell me in what scenario is this fair to me as your opponent? Because it's technically possible and in the game currently?
Because it's possible and, as in above, because some people consider it only fair to know that. That what fairness is for them.LegendaryMage wrote: »Your logic is completely flawed and it is absolutely clear to me why you did this in the first place.
Yet again you demonstrate lack of rational reasoning and an attempt to emotionally dominate. I find this unfortunate.LegendaryMage wrote: »You needed it and you're not the kind of a player that will keep away from exploits. It's tempting and too easy to give in, and so you did.
I'm a kind of player that happen to be considered one of the best stamblades NA. Some think i'm the best, but i'd argue that Kodi might still win by a small margin. Sorry for the pitch.
I was that player before the addon. I still am after.
You, and many other people, don't really understand that Cyro really rarely provides a challenge for me. It become quite boring. I have zero desire to 'do whatever to win' or whatever you might project on me. I sincerely consider the addon as a convenience. I wasn't joking when i said that i could successfully pvp without UI altogether. I did. It's more frustrating though, and i don't consider forced limitations to be a form of challenge.
That's me. You might still find a thing to blame me for. Like lies, all lies:) That's on you.LegendaryMage wrote: »Didn't the API allow you to see stealthed players in the past too? And if it did, for how long have you been playing like that?
About 2 weeks while i was developing the addons. Since we don't have a 'test cyro' to develop in there wasn't much of a choice.LegendaryMage wrote: »Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's true, that sounds like a major exploit to me.
UI addons cannot be exploits by the definition. See above about ZOS, UI, API, design choices etc.
And while you're at it tell me about a way to develop an addon without testing it in the relevant environment.LegendaryMage wrote: »You see, this is exactly the problem with people like you.
Keep in mind that i don't find a problem in me.
It's you who suddenly have a problem with some other person. Who you never talked to. I'd think about it if i were you.LegendaryMage wrote: »You don't care what's good for the players, you'll use whatever you can in whatever grey area you find yourself in. If ZOS one day allows cheat engine to be freely used, you'd be one of the first ones to do it according to your quote.
If i had it for myself you might have had a ground, but i don't and thus you don't.
Think again please.LegendaryMage wrote: »It's obvious that you made this because you needed it. Without it you were having difficulties in PVP and you couldn't compete with better players. Anyone who depends on crutches or exploits like this, is the same.
See above.
And you might consider it a good time to apologize. We all got temper. But we can learn to control it.LegendaryMage wrote: »And next time you try to discredit me as someone who might not know much about PVP, well just keep in mind I don't need your addon to tell me when a frag is coming behind my back.
Yep, i watched a couple of your vidoes. I'd still win you, unless as a mag sorc you'd force a draw. The fact that you play it in its current state already tells quite a lot about you.Edited by Dorrino on October 7, 2017 1:51AM2 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LegendaryMage is right. Post #525 first sentence pretty much sums it all up.Edited by Publius_Scipio on October 7, 2017 1:58AM3 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA" Edited by DDuke on October 7, 2017 1:59AM3 -
ak_pvp✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't like it, but it at least evens the field for those who couldn't access the cheat before. Its obvious groups would've been abusing it secretly. If ZOS says its OK for everyone to use then sure.
However I really wish it wasn't allowed. It is by definition a cheat, and as such I do not use it.MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
Best houseknight EU.0 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*Edited by Publius_Scipio on October 7, 2017 2:03AM0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*
My good friend Scipio conveniently omits existence of 4-10 other players around him:) But for Scipio's sake i'd admit running away from him:)Edited by Dorrino on October 7, 2017 2:07AM1 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't like it, but it at least evens the field for those who couldn't access the cheat before. Its obvious groups would've been abusing it secretly. If ZOS says its OK for everyone to use then sure.
However I really wish it wasn't allowed. It is by definition a cheat, and as such I do not use it.
I never said it was a cheat, I never said Miat should be banned. All i said is i believe this addon and any addon with similar or even more "nefarious" functions to be bull[snip]. Or since we are in Tamriel, guar sh[snip].0 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*
My good friend Scipio conveniently omits existence of 4-10 other players around him:) But for Scipio's sake i'd admit running away from him:)
I don't have any sake. You run, you poison arrow then bow light attack. You don't stay on me and brawl.
Edit: you have enzo and executi boy kill me more than you.Edited by Publius_Scipio on October 7, 2017 2:10AM2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*
My good friend Scipio conveniently omits existence of 4-10 other players around him:) But for Scipio's sake i'd admit running away from him:)
I don't have any sake. You run, you poison arrow then bow light attack. You don't stay on me and brawl.
5 duels and after i win all 5 you apologize on the forums?:)0 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*
My good friend Scipio conveniently omits existence of 4-10 other players around him:) But for Scipio's sake i'd admit running away from him:)
I don't have any sake. You run, you poison arrow then bow light attack. You don't stay on me and brawl.
5 duels and after i win all 5 you apologize on the forums?:)
I accept. no troll king, no poisons, I guess heavy armor is your thing so whatever. I will be all medium armor, no procs, no poisons, I don't even use potions when I play.0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »Publius_Scipio wrote: »LegendaryMage is right. Post #525
Shh, don't agitate the "best stamblade NA"
Well his build, just by the gear and numbers (and CP) sure make him slippery and tough to kill. But he isn't an aggressive killer. I have hit him a few times and all he did was run full speed ahead football fields away from me. Only to come back during some brawl and bow light attack to death at max range.
edit: attack me*
My good friend Scipio conveniently omits existence of 4-10 other players around him:) But for Scipio's sake i'd admit running away from him:)
I don't have any sake. You run, you poison arrow then bow light attack. You don't stay on me and brawl.
5 duels and after i win all 5 you apologize on the forums?:)
I accept. no troll king, no poisons, I guess heavy armor is your thing so whatever. I will be all medium armor, no procs, no poisons, I don't even use potions when I play.
Awesome:) 5/1/1 med here. I never ran heavy.
Not crucial, but if you refrain from using mark that might make the duels faster.
Will whisper you in game in 10-15 min.0 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭To be honest, I'd argue it's unfair out of stealth as well, since you can no longer "hide" cast animations by standing behind pets or jumping etc, so it essentially takes away from player skill there as well (not to mention allowing you to dodge frags etc that fly in from out of your FoV).LegendaryMage wrote: »No, that's not what you did. Displaying information after it happens is one thing. Displaying information about something that is going to happen is completely different.
If you and me are in PVP and I'm positioned behind you, you're trying to run away from me and I'm trying to frag you in the back, how in the world is it fair to me that you KNOW exactly when to press block or dodge to avoid being hit?
I think this is the same point.
The problem with this point is that it pushed forward the concept of fairness. And since different people consider different things to be 'fair' and 'unfair' in my mind it can't be a basis for rational discussion and instead becomes a matter of preference.
Say, i'd prefer to know about anything that is directed to my character. Because that's my preference. I don't see a way to refute it without relying on purely emotional pressure, which at best, might just make me scared and stop replying.LegendaryMage wrote: »Think about it for a minute and tell me in what scenario is this fair to me as your opponent? Because it's technically possible and in the game currently?
Because it's possible and, as in above, because some people consider it only fair to know that. That what fairness is for them.LegendaryMage wrote: »Your logic is completely flawed and it is absolutely clear to me why you did this in the first place.
Yet again you demonstrate lack of rational reasoning and an attempt to emotionally dominate. I find this unfortunate.LegendaryMage wrote: »You needed it and you're not the kind of a player that will keep away from exploits. It's tempting and too easy to give in, and so you did.
I'm a kind of player that happen to be considered one of the best stamblades NA. Some think i'm the best, but i'd argue that Kodi might still win by a small margin. Sorry for the pitch.
I was that player before the addon. I still am after.
You, and many other people, don't really understand that Cyro really rarely provides a challenge for me. It become quite boring. I have zero desire to 'do whatever to win' or whatever you might project on me. I sincerely consider the addon as a convenience. I wasn't joking when i said that i could successfully pvp without UI altogether. I did. It's more frustrating though, and i don't consider forced limitations to be a form of challenge.
That's me. You might still find a thing to blame me for. Like lies, all lies:) That's on you.LegendaryMage wrote: »Didn't the API allow you to see stealthed players in the past too? And if it did, for how long have you been playing like that?
About 2 weeks while i was developing the addons. Since we don't have a 'test cyro' to develop in there wasn't much of a choice.LegendaryMage wrote: »Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's true, that sounds like a major exploit to me.
UI addons cannot be exploits by the definition. See above about ZOS, UI, API, design choices etc.
And while you're at it tell me about a way to develop an addon without testing it in the relevant environment.LegendaryMage wrote: »You see, this is exactly the problem with people like you.
Keep in mind that i don't find a problem in me.
It's you who suddenly have a problem with some other person. Who you never talked to. I'd think about it if i were you.LegendaryMage wrote: »You don't care what's good for the players, you'll use whatever you can in whatever grey area you find yourself in. If ZOS one day allows cheat engine to be freely used, you'd be one of the first ones to do it according to your quote.
If i had it for myself you might have had a ground, but i don't and thus you don't.
Think again please.LegendaryMage wrote: »It's obvious that you made this because you needed it. Without it you were having difficulties in PVP and you couldn't compete with better players. Anyone who depends on crutches or exploits like this, is the same.
See above.
And you might consider it a good time to apologize. We all got temper. But we can learn to control it.LegendaryMage wrote: »And next time you try to discredit me as someone who might not know much about PVP, well just keep in mind I don't need your addon to tell me when a frag is coming behind my back.
Yep, i watched a couple of your vidoes. I'd still win you, unless as a mag sorc you'd force a draw. The fact that you play it in its current state already tells quite a lot about you.
You wouldn't win *** man, get off your high horse and stop making excuses for the crutches you're working on.2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »To be honest, I'd argue it's unfair out of stealth as well, since you can no longer "hide" cast animations by standing behind pets or jumping etc, so it essentially takes away from player skill there as well (not to mention allowing you to dodge frags etc that fly in from out of your FoV).LegendaryMage wrote: »No, that's not what you did. Displaying information after it happens is one thing. Displaying information about something that is going to happen is completely different.
If you and me are in PVP and I'm positioned behind you, you're trying to run away from me and I'm trying to frag you in the back, how in the world is it fair to me that you KNOW exactly when to press block or dodge to avoid being hit?
I think this is the same point.
The problem with this point is that it pushed forward the concept of fairness. And since different people consider different things to be 'fair' and 'unfair' in my mind it can't be a basis for rational discussion and instead becomes a matter of preference.
Say, i'd prefer to know about anything that is directed to my character. Because that's my preference. I don't see a way to refute it without relying on purely emotional pressure, which at best, might just make me scared and stop replying.LegendaryMage wrote: »Think about it for a minute and tell me in what scenario is this fair to me as your opponent? Because it's technically possible and in the game currently?
Because it's possible and, as in above, because some people consider it only fair to know that. That what fairness is for them.LegendaryMage wrote: »Your logic is completely flawed and it is absolutely clear to me why you did this in the first place.
Yet again you demonstrate lack of rational reasoning and an attempt to emotionally dominate. I find this unfortunate.LegendaryMage wrote: »You needed it and you're not the kind of a player that will keep away from exploits. It's tempting and too easy to give in, and so you did.
I'm a kind of player that happen to be considered one of the best stamblades NA. Some think i'm the best, but i'd argue that Kodi might still win by a small margin. Sorry for the pitch.
I was that player before the addon. I still am after.
You, and many other people, don't really understand that Cyro really rarely provides a challenge for me. It become quite boring. I have zero desire to 'do whatever to win' or whatever you might project on me. I sincerely consider the addon as a convenience. I wasn't joking when i said that i could successfully pvp without UI altogether. I did. It's more frustrating though, and i don't consider forced limitations to be a form of challenge.
That's me. You might still find a thing to blame me for. Like lies, all lies:) That's on you.LegendaryMage wrote: »Didn't the API allow you to see stealthed players in the past too? And if it did, for how long have you been playing like that?
About 2 weeks while i was developing the addons. Since we don't have a 'test cyro' to develop in there wasn't much of a choice.LegendaryMage wrote: »Correct me if I'm wrong, but if that's true, that sounds like a major exploit to me.
UI addons cannot be exploits by the definition. See above about ZOS, UI, API, design choices etc.
And while you're at it tell me about a way to develop an addon without testing it in the relevant environment.LegendaryMage wrote: »You see, this is exactly the problem with people like you.
Keep in mind that i don't find a problem in me.
It's you who suddenly have a problem with some other person. Who you never talked to. I'd think about it if i were you.LegendaryMage wrote: »You don't care what's good for the players, you'll use whatever you can in whatever grey area you find yourself in. If ZOS one day allows cheat engine to be freely used, you'd be one of the first ones to do it according to your quote.
If i had it for myself you might have had a ground, but i don't and thus you don't.
Think again please.LegendaryMage wrote: »It's obvious that you made this because you needed it. Without it you were having difficulties in PVP and you couldn't compete with better players. Anyone who depends on crutches or exploits like this, is the same.
See above.
And you might consider it a good time to apologize. We all got temper. But we can learn to control it.LegendaryMage wrote: »And next time you try to discredit me as someone who might not know much about PVP, well just keep in mind I don't need your addon to tell me when a frag is coming behind my back.
Yep, i watched a couple of your vidoes. I'd still win you, unless as a mag sorc you'd force a draw. The fact that you play it in its current state already tells quite a lot about you.
You wouldn't win *** man, get off your high horse and stop making excuses for the crutches you're working on.
See, you still following your temper instead of you mind:) Do you feel necessity doing so?2
This discussion has been closed.