Cheating and Exploits

FENGRUSH

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

I actually didnt see posts about this outside of the alliance war forum - and Im pretty active on the forums. It just goes to show people can be on here a lot and not read it. If people didnt read alliance war or PTS - they probably wouldnt have seen any of that, or potentially even the discussions? Oh well.

UltimaJoe777

DeadDealer wrote: »

im interesting
if you ZOS, in the future, admitted you cannot fix it, FOR example
and you will announce gap-close to keep intended mechanics like animation cancelling

whats then? you will unban all people you banned for it?

Comical grammatical errors aside they will not give up trying to fix it. Fixing gap closers has been an on-going battle for years now. Many other things have too. Not once though in all the time they have been working on this game did they ever say they gave up trying to fix something because they could not, and I doubt they're about to start. After all, that would not show professionalism.

Mojmir

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

DeadDealer wrote: »

im interesting
if you ZOS, in the future, admitted you cannot fix it, FOR example
and you will announce gap-close to keep intended mechanics like animation cancelling

whats then? you will unban all people you banned for it?

Comical grammatical errors aside they will not give up trying to fix it. Fixing gap closers has been an on-going battle for years now. Many other things have too. Not once though in all the time they have been working on this game did they ever say they gave up trying to fix something because they could not, and I doubt they're about to start. After all, that would not show professionalism.

They're stubborn,not proffesional at all.they might have never given up but they also don't show consistency or transparency. If something has gone on this long and you cant fix it, you dont leave it in the system to be abused or escalate other issues. As it is now,none of my characters have a gap closer on bar, id rather run up to the enemy than risk bugging out.

UltimaJoe777

Mojmir wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

DeadDealer wrote: »

im interesting
if you ZOS, in the future, admitted you cannot fix it, FOR example
and you will announce gap-close to keep intended mechanics like animation cancelling

whats then? you will unban all people you banned for it?

Comical grammatical errors aside they will not give up trying to fix it. Fixing gap closers has been an on-going battle for years now. Many other things have too. Not once though in all the time they have been working on this game did they ever say they gave up trying to fix something because they could not, and I doubt they're about to start. After all, that would not show professionalism.

They're stubborn,not proffesional at all.they might have never given up but they also don't show consistency or transparency. If something has gone on this long and you cant fix it, you dont leave it in the system to be abused or escalate other issues. As it is now,none of my characters have a gap closer on bar, id rather run up to the enemy than risk bugging out.

Professional doesn't mean proficient, nor is proficiency a prerequisite of it.

Bromburak

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds.

I am sorry but their implemented logic in terrain ignorance was obviously a technical design decision.
Mods are uncertain how to communicate the present behavior and that's why their opinions vary in several threads.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

It's not the job of a streamer to make assumptions on warnings or decide of what is right or wrong.

Mods or Devs have opinions that vary in this matter and that is one of the issues from a professional industry perspective.
They are representing a company and when it comes to cheating and exploiting ZOS needs to take up a stance over cheating and exploiting as a company.

ZOS is in charge to setup rules to consequently enforce their strategy in dealing with cheaters and exploiters. This requires a cheating and exploiting page (still overdue) with all consequences and not the opinion of a single ZOS employee you need to search in the forums.

Players need rules and reliable orientation and not an opinion or statements of single mods somewhere deep in the forums.
As a company you must have a very clear position on cheating and exploiting including all consequences and you should provide all the details at a central place for all customers. And this is the only source for staff and customers that defines what is right or wrong.

There is no room for discussions or assumptions when cheating and exploiting is totally out of control.
That's why a professional company needs a well defined position on cheating and exploiting so that customers can trust you in this matter.

dennissomb16_ESO

Despite all the pro and con arguments around bans for gap closers into keeps/towers I think a couple of the things people seem to agree on is the following. Obviously ZOS needs to fix the situation and it needs to be a main focus until fixed. Not something that will get rolled out with future DLC etc.

For me more importantly they need to communicate that it is clearly a punishable action "in game". A majority of players in MMOs never read the forums and having a post in Alliance war is not a reasonable communication. They have the ability to have a pop up window/email the first time you enter Cyrodil going forward clearly stating that gap closer into keeps towers is against the TOS and can be punished

people continue after that and fine, go after them

Turelus

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Despite all the pro and con arguments around bans for gap closers into keeps/towers I think a couple of the things people seem to agree on is the following. Obviously ZOS needs to fix the situation and it needs to be a main focus until fixed. Not something that will get rolled out with future DLC etc.

For me more importantly they need to communicate that it is clearly a punishable action "in game". A majority of players in MMOs never read the forums and having a post in Alliance war is not a reasonable communication. They have the ability to have a pop up window/email the first time you enter Cyrodil going forward clearly stating that gap closer into keeps towers is against the TOS and can be punished

people continue after that and fine, go after them

I've been saying for a while that both the launcher and the log in screen have sections for news/announcements which can link back to a news article or forums post. These should be utilised to get messages out.

ZOS dropped the ball with communication on this one, but they also finally stood up and did something inside Cyrodiil to keep it fair. As long as they learn from the mistakes and make changes going forwards which allow them to not repeat the mistakes I think we're doing good.

Zaldan

@ZOS_AlanG can you take a look at this thread please as it appears to have disappeared from the recent posts filter entirely, not because it's a sticky as other stickies show up.

edit* umm odd, one minute it's not showing then it is lol

KramUzibra

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

How many times must it be said, not all players are obligated to view the forums or keep up with zos news feeds on various types of social media. Regardless wether or not fengrush has a large following unless he is being compensated by zos then he has no obligation or responsibility to inform his following that zos has confirmed gap closing to be an exploit. Those players that do not know this is an exploit do not deserve to be banned. Once Zenimax makes an announcement to the entire player base be it by email or the startup screen zos shouldn't be banning players for using this "exploit"

KramUzibra

lordrichter wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

Your car can go faster than the speed limit. It doesn't mean that just because it can, you should.

Car analogies are much better than gun analogies.

Players are responsible for their actions, no matter what ZOS does, or does not do, regarding bugs. The players should be big boys and girls. They have the choice to not exploit the bug, even if everyone else is doing it. If they do it, that is on them. ZOS is responsible only for fixing the bug, not the actions of the players.

Lest anyone accuse me of wanting people banned... I would prefer it if the players abusing the exploit would just grow up and stop abusing it. There would be no reason to ban ANYONE if they would just stop doing it.

I would like to see them get a chance to stop, and so my preference is a WARNING to start things off. No reason to permanently ban anyone right away. The important thing is that they stop. If the player can act like a mature adult that is able to take responsibility for what they do, and stop doing what they should not be doing, then there is no reason to keep them out of the game.

If they can't do that, after getting a fair chance to change, ban them forever.

Edit: As for Cheat Engine, I would do the same, but start with a 72 hour Suspension instead of a warning. They know what they are doing is wrong. The ones where were not really serious about cheating will stop at this point. The rest, well, they will be banned soon enough.

Wrong! In this analogy the city is zos and the city needs to clearly inform the drivers of the speed limit sometimes more than once so the driver knows at what speed is acceptable by the city zos is responsible for this issue and they need to make it clear to the entire player base effectively in some way.

Rohamad_Ali

Someone needs to warn the public ...

KramUzibra

dennissomb16_ESO wrote: »

Despite all the pro and con arguments around bans for gap closers into keeps/towers I think a couple of the things people seem to agree on is the following. Obviously ZOS needs to fix the situation and it needs to be a main focus until fixed. Not something that will get rolled out with future DLC etc.

For me more importantly they need to communicate that it is clearly a punishable action "in game". A majority of players in MMOs never read the forums and having a post in Alliance war is not a reasonable communication. They have the ability to have a pop up window/email the first time you enter Cyrodil going forward clearly stating that gap closer into keeps towers is against the TOS and can be punished

people continue after that and fine, go after them

Yes! Well said

Grao

@FENGRUSH ,

I agree with a lot of what you said, I think the use of CE - Cheat Engine should be severely punished and the fact Zenimax's has gone back on permanent bans of proved cheaters is ridiculous.

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax's fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

They have kept for a very long time that the use of any ability to violate the intended mechanics of keep capturing in Cyrodiil is exploitation and thus against the rules. If they don't enforce that rule, it is very unfair. Part of the community will obey the rule and feel screwed by the system and part of community will screw the system and be hated by the other half of the community, that is very bad for the health of the game. Since Zenimax clearly can't fix the problem with gap closers easily, the best solution would be to simply declare the use of gap closers to get on top of walls as acceptable, yes, some people would still complain about it on the forums, but at least everyone would be left on equal footing.

Pomaikai

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

How many times must it be said, not all players are obligated to view the forums or keep up with zos news feeds on various types of social media. Regardless wether or not fengrush has a large following unless he is being compensated by zos then he has no obligation or responsibility to inform his following that zos has confirmed gap closing to be an exploit. Those players that do not know this is an exploit do not deserve to be banned. Once Zenimax makes an announcement to the entire player base be it by email or the startup screen zos shouldn't be banning players for using this "exploit"

It is ALWAYS incumbent upon the player to keep up with rules, bugs, and exploits. I can't say this enough; Ignorance is NO excuse! Educate yourself!

I don't disagree that ZOS doesn't "get" communication and customer service at all. They quite frankly suck at it, and that's the nicest way I can put it.

But that doesn't excuse people from not educating themselves about the most current rules of the game they play.

Loralai_907

ZOS has a number of huge problems right now. We have exploitable features not being addressed in a timely manner. We have a cheat detector now I guess, that auto banned a bunch of possibly innocent players for going too fast, I think they were all sorcs. We have a work in progress cheating and exploiting rule - meaning it has been evolving for the last little while. The customer service team needs help. You can't close tickets that were not resolved, this is insane. The person making decisions needs help, the person that writes what other people are allowed to say needs help too. Consoles sound like a nightmare over half the time.

Back to the evolving cheating and exploiting rule. I am glad that they are trying to improve. But it seems a little fish out of water, the way everything has progressed. A little like a blind person trying to find their way through a room they have never been in before. Which is super confusing and entirely unexpected. In a lot of cases, they seem to be cleaning up after the fact instead of getting ahead of situations before there is a crisis. I really feel like they need to get to the point where they are ahead of things.

Its like dealing with a baby company that hasn't found its feet yet. You should not have to be told that the players are going to dam near riot over cheating players. You should not have to be told that players are going to dam near riot over those same people being allowed to return. You should not have to be told that someone needs to be approving what other people say in interviews, approving the wording, to ensure you are not going to insult or anger your players by making a poorly worded statement. You should not have to be told that customer service does not in any way involve closing tickets before they are solved - saying you are too busy to help them. You should not have to be told that customers expect a functioning product, and that when things go wonky, they expect a solution in a timely manner.

You are saying that exploiting can lead to a permanent ban. Which is totally fine. Now that has to be backed up with a broader communication to the player base. Get that information everywhere you can. You have to do this after so long of allowing it to happen. If this were a hard and fast rule since day one, we would not be having this discussion right now. The confusion I don't think has anything to do with what the rules are, it has to do with the fact that they are being enforced now but were not enforced before. And by enforced, I mean that loosely. We are not at a point where people believe you are 100% up to the task. But I do hope that we get to that point. I do hope that within the next couple of months it is known that ZOS has a zero tolerance for cheating and exploiting. At the same time, I hope that some of the above problems, those that are within your control, are also addressed. If you want to play with the big dogs, you need to be able to act like one.

Grao

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

How many times must it be said, not all players are obligated to view the forums or keep up with zos news feeds on various types of social media. Regardless wether or not fengrush has a large following unless he is being compensated by zos then he has no obligation or responsibility to inform his following that zos has confirmed gap closing to be an exploit. Those players that do not know this is an exploit do not deserve to be banned. Once Zenimax makes an announcement to the entire player base be it by email or the startup screen zos shouldn't be banning players for using this "exploit"

It is ALWAYS incumbent upon the player to keep up with rules, bugs, and exploits. I can't say this enough; Ignorance is NO excuse! Educate yourself!

I don't disagree that ZOS doesn't "get" communication and customer service at all. They quite frankly suck at it, and that's the nicest way I can put it.

But that doesn't excuse people from not educating themselves about the most current rules of the game they play.

Participating on the Game's forum or watching ESO Live should not be a requirement to hear about the latest changes in the rules of the game. Zenimax spams emails to their players about new stuff selling in the crown store every two weeks and they also have the ability to send in game warnings and mail. Now, when they send out an email regarding gap closers to the entire player base and a in game mail, then I will consider they properly warned the players about Gap Closers being considered an exploit.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Hey ZOS. See you losers late . I'll be back if you ever fix your $#%& which I doubt will happen.

KramUzibra

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

How many times must it be said, not all players are obligated to view the forums or keep up with zos news feeds on various types of social media. Regardless wether or not fengrush has a large following unless he is being compensated by zos then he has no obligation or responsibility to inform his following that zos has confirmed gap closing to be an exploit. Those players that do not know this is an exploit do not deserve to be banned. Once Zenimax makes an announcement to the entire player base be it by email or the startup screen zos shouldn't be banning players for using this "exploit"

It is ALWAYS incumbent upon the player to keep up with rules, bugs, and exploits. I can't say this enough; Ignorance is NO excuse! Educate yourself!

I don't disagree that ZOS doesn't "get" communication and customer service at all. They quite frankly suck at it, and that's the nicest way I can put it.

But that doesn't excuse people from not educating themselves about the most current rules of the game they play.

It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

Whatzituyah

Annologies are not working so ile be blunt. ZOS can use disciplinary actions if they feel that your breaking TOS known or not by the player. If you don't like it leave don't let the door hit you on the way out! But if you do stay if you feel like you were disciplined wrongfully than you can make your case with support.

KramUzibra

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Annologies are not working so ile be blunt. ZOS can use disciplinary actions if they feel that your breaking TOS known or not by the player. If you don't like it leave don't let the door hit you on the way out! But if you do stay if you feel like you were disciplined wrongfully than you can make your case with support.

I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not zos can ban anyone for anything it's wether or not they should operate this way.

Whatzituyah

KramUzibra wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Annologies are not working so ile be blunt. ZOS can use disciplinary actions if they feel that your breaking TOS known or not by the player. If you don't like it leave don't let the door hit you on the way out! But if you do stay if you feel like you were disciplined wrongfully than you can make your case with support.

I don't think anyone is arguing whether or not zos can ban anyone for anything it's wether or not they should operate this way.

@KramUzibra Still analogies still not working to explain if they can operate this way. You agree to ZOS's TOS if you break it in anyway they have the right to discipline you its just how it is.

Pomaikai

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Apparently my thread wasnt acceptable, and Im supposed to post this here???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

Fengrush,

I've said pretty much the same things that you said in your video about Zenimax's complete lack of communication and the damage that it has done to this game. I agree with much of what you said. The un-bannings were outrageous. The way that the writ exploits were handled were outrageous.

I must disagree with you on one point. However poorly that Zenimax communicated with the player base, and it sucked horribly, over one month ago on May 28th a Zenimax employee stated that they knew that gap closers were bugged, and that people should not exploit them to get into Keeps, etc. So this is hardly a case of them "suddenly" changing their minds. This was then repeated numerous times by various other Zenimax employees in other threads over the course of the following month. Again, the way they communicated this stunk on ice, was totally not transparent, and Zenimax's overall communication skills are the worst that I've ever experienced from any company EVER, regardless of the industry.

Those of us who had been keeping up with the PTS forum, including you, knew that gap closers were broken. It wasn't a guess. It was a certainty. They were messed up. Zenimax finally admitted to this publicly over a month ago. As a streamer who affects a large portion of the PVP community, you do bear a certain amount of responsibility during your Twitch feeds. You had the opportunity to tell people that gap closers were obviously bugged and that using them to get into places they were never intended to get them into was something they shouldn't do. Especially after the May 28th pronouncement that it was a bug, and that people shouldn't exploit it while it was being fixed. That is exactly what the TOS is saying by the way. That if you find or learn from someone else about a bug that can be exploited for personal gain, you are violating the TOS and can be banned for any amount of time, up to permanently for doing so.

So there isn't any "retroactively" going back to ban people before they knew it was an exploit. Any use of gap closers to bypass keep mechanics from May 28th on is absolutely a violation of the TOS. If there is video evidence that someone was using those gap closers incorrectly from then to now, then nothing is retroactive. It's just applying evidence of someone cheating. It would be exceedingly silly to only allow evidence against someone to be used if it had been collected that day, because using retroactive evidence is wrong. Logically, that's a bit silly.

But here's the thing. You personally ARE active on the forums. You should have seen the rulings about about the exploitation of gap closers. What you shouldn't have done was teach people how to use them, and have a blast using your "grappling hooks". This goes back to your responsibility as a streamer. You could have used your bully pulpit to warn people against using them incorrectly. You could have warned people that they could be banned for some period of time by doing so. A day, a week, or in a couple of cases permanently.

Now, about those supposedly unjust permanent bans...

We all know who one of the two people who were permanently banned is, and it's a toss up on who the second one is. Was it his partner, or another person who was posting in this thread, as opposed to Yodased's post that was originally in the General Forum, but was then closed for a short while, and then moved to the Alliance War Forum. In both cases though, the issue was almost assuredly less about them using the gap closers incorrectly, and much much much much much much more about their acting like complete donkeys about it on the forums. From taunting the players they had griefed via exploiting, to taunting and ridiculing both the people posting on the forum thread, to taunting and flat out daring Zenimax to punish them. Guess what? They got EXACTLY what they asked for, and deserved.

Seriously, if you're going to cheat, and you get caught doing so, don't come onto the forums and be a Richard Cranium about it. You're just asking for trouble, and trouble they found aplenty.

How many times must it be said, not all players are obligated to view the forums or keep up with zos news feeds on various types of social media. Regardless wether or not fengrush has a large following unless he is being compensated by zos then he has no obligation or responsibility to inform his following that zos has confirmed gap closing to be an exploit. Those players that do not know this is an exploit do not deserve to be banned. Once Zenimax makes an announcement to the entire player base be it by email or the startup screen zos shouldn't be banning players for using this "exploit"

It is ALWAYS incumbent upon the player to keep up with rules, bugs, and exploits. I can't say this enough; Ignorance is NO excuse! Educate yourself!

I don't disagree that ZOS doesn't "get" communication and customer service at all. They quite frankly suck at it, and that's the nicest way I can put it.

But that doesn't excuse people from not educating themselves about the most current rules of the game they play.

It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

The TOS doesn't care if you educated yourself or not. Not does it care about Fengrush's incredibly silly, "I was too stoned to know it was wrong" excuse. If you violate the rules then you can be punished. That doesn't mean permabanned, but it could if the violation was egregious enough, or if the player is a big enough of a donkey about it.

Turelus

Taking a cue from the political leaders of my country, now the work here is done and ZOS have stepped up to do things I will leave.

Going to wait for all the heated debates and ego to go away and come back and post if there is something I feel ZOS need to look at. My previous post with everything I would like to see can be found here.

However the main outstanding issues ZOS have left to attend to are.

• Better more visible communication when announcements are made.
• Somewhere everyone can be linked to which references what is and isn't a cheat/exploit.
• Removing items from suspended (72 hour ban) accounts so players don't benefit from cheating.

InvitationNotFound

hmmm seems like some people are mixing things up here.

like exploiting bugs is okay because ZOS released it to live knowing it is a mess.

there are actually two issues here and one of them doesn't belong to this discussion:
ZOS way how they release and test content and push it to the server. reinventing the wheel over and over again, messing up the whole game. that's a bad thing, but not directly related to the issue we have here.

software will always have bugs (this game most like more than anything else). so saying that it's okay to exploit because they released that buggy software would justify every kind of exploiting is obviously pretty wrong.

as an analogy (let's stick with software):
you have a server running (private or business) and need to offer certain services to your friends, customers whatever. you've installed a web server and a simple web application you've programmed. Unfortunately, you mess up the session management a little bit and it allows people to access other users' data (in certain cases a bug (which this is) becomes a security vulnerability). according to some people here, it is now legit to access other users' data as it was implemented this way. well, i have some bad news here for you. that doesn't work that way and you'll find yourself in legal problems if you do so.

So once we live with the fact that software is buggy and there will be exploits no matter on how good a company / developer is, how should exploiting be treated?
in my opinion taking action against people abusing gap closers is justified. they missed taking action against exploits a long time ago (e.g. mundus stones exploit, overload exploit, etc.). I'm not talking a bout permanent bans here, at least not for the first few offences (CE is another topic as it is using a third party tool. in such a case a permanent ban would be the least^^).

the issue here is how ZOS is announcing their "new stance" (still want to see if they are really doing anything at all). the forums aren't read by everyone.
Furthermore, how will they handle incidents? are 10 people reporting a random guy they don't like is enough (false accusation)? how about people jumping into keeps when no one is currently there? the lack of game masters might be a huge issue here.

XDragonDoomX

I had a conversation yesterday with a player who has pvp characters in all three alliances.
He stated that he intends to carry on using the keep / outpost exploits until he is banned. He also stated that he will ignore any warnings.
He has previously been reported. I was also informed that he had, himself, supplied video evidence to ZoS, who had replied & told him it was an exploit and that he shouldn't do it and that if I don't exploit the mechanics (which I don't, nor have I ever knowingly used any exploit), then I am the idiot.
With such mentality amongst certain players, why is there any argument about what the ultimate decision should be for repeat offenders.
I have stated previously that accidents happen and someone can find themselves on the wrong side of a door at times. However, repeated and deliberate acts have no place in the game.
There is no defence to this - ZoS have stated that it is an unintended mechanic and that deliberately taking advantage of it is an exploit.

There is one other option available to ZoS that hasn't really been mentioned - disable all gap closers until the problem is sorted out properly.

Alurria

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

I had a conversation yesterday with a player who has pvp characters in all three alliances.
He stated that he intends to carry on using the keep / outpost exploits until he is banned. He also stated that he will ignore any warnings.
He has previously been reported. I was also informed that he had, himself, supplied video evidence to ZoS, who had replied & told him it was an exploit and that he shouldn't do it.
With such mentality amongst certain players, why is there any argument about what the ultimate decision should be for repeat offenders.
I have stated previously that accidents happen and someone can find themselves on the wrong side of a door at times. However, repeated and deliberate acts have no place in the game.
There is no defence to this - ZoS have stated that it is an unintended mechanic and that deliberately taking advantage of it is an exploit.

There is one other option available to ZoS that hasn't really been mentioned - disable all gap closers until the problem is sorted out properly.

Yes they have, but not everyone reads these forums. So maybe there are people who don't realize it's an exploit that has been in this game for a long time. Hence why people keep urging ZOS to find a way to communicate it to the whole player base.

XDragonDoomX

KramUzibra wrote: »

It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

You are actually obligated. You are required to confirm you have read the EULA & also the TOS. If you choose to click the button stating you have read both, without actually bothering to read them, then any ignorance is down to you. This is not being disrespectful, it is a statement of fact.

XDragonDoomX

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

[quote="KramUzibra;3163422It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

You are actually obligated. You are required to confirm you have read the EULA & also the TOS. If you choose to click the button stating you have read both, without actually bothering to read them, then any ignorance is down to you. This is not being disrespectful, it is a statement of fact.
[/quote]

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

I had a conversation yesterday with a player who has pvp characters in all three alliances.
He stated that he intends to carry on using the keep / outpost exploits until he is banned. He also stated that he will ignore any warnings.
He has previously been reported. I was also informed that he had, himself, supplied video evidence to ZoS, who had replied & told him it was an exploit and that he shouldn't do it.
With such mentality amongst certain players, why is there any argument about what the ultimate decision should be for repeat offenders.
I have stated previously that accidents happen and someone can find themselves on the wrong side of a door at times. However, repeated and deliberate acts have no place in the game.
There is no defence to this - ZoS have stated that it is an unintended mechanic and that deliberately taking advantage of it is an exploit.

There is one other option available to ZoS that hasn't really been mentioned - disable all gap closers until the problem is sorted out properly.

Yes they have, but not everyone reads these forums. So maybe there are people who don't realize it's an exploit that has been in this game for a long time. Hence why people keep urging ZOS to find a way to communicate it to the whole player base.

I'm not disagreeing with the need for greater communication. However it is now common knowledge and in this and many other incidents, the person doing it is fully aware.

Alurria

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

[quote="KramUzibra;3163422It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

You are actually obligated. You are required to confirm you have read the EULA & also the TOS. If you choose to click the button stating you have read both, without actually bothering to read them, then any ignorance is down to you. This is not being disrespectful, it is a statement of fact.

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

I had a conversation yesterday with a player who has pvp characters in all three alliances.
He stated that he intends to carry on using the keep / outpost exploits until he is banned. He also stated that he will ignore any warnings.
He has previously been reported. I was also informed that he had, himself, supplied video evidence to ZoS, who had replied & told him it was an exploit and that he shouldn't do it.
With such mentality amongst certain players, why is there any argument about what the ultimate decision should be for repeat offenders.
I have stated previously that accidents happen and someone can find themselves on the wrong side of a door at times. However, repeated and deliberate acts have no place in the game.
There is no defence to this - ZoS have stated that it is an unintended mechanic and that deliberately taking advantage of it is an exploit.

There is one other option available to ZoS that hasn't really been mentioned - disable all gap closers until the problem is sorted out properly.

Yes they have, but not everyone reads these forums. So maybe there are people who don't realize it's an exploit that has been in this game for a long time. Hence why people keep urging ZOS to find a way to communicate it to the whole player base.

I'm not disagreeing with the need for greater communication. However it is now common knowledge and in this and many other incidents, the person doing it is fully aware. [/quote]

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you about the common knowledge bit. Unless you can prove that every single player is aware, and I'm sorry but as far as reading the tos you know people don't. Without getting into the legality of the TOS, informing the player base that gap closers are working improperly when it comes to keep siege is the right thing to do, warning on first offences and banning if they continue to abuse. NOT retroactive banning or banning outright. CE is Different matter. The intent to cheat is there all along and should be dealt with by a ban.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. What matters is I am sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. As such the reputation of this company is now tarnished in my mind.

Elsonso

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes they have, but not everyone reads these forums. So maybe there are people who don't realize it's an exploit that has been in this game for a long time. Hence why people keep urging ZOS to find a way to communicate it to the whole player base.

This is going to sound silly, but the ToS already covers all exploits, known and unknown, current and future.

While a lot of players just blow past the ToS without reading it, to ZOS it is actually a legally binding document. Even if the players do not read it, ZOS has. They have a lot of wiggle room, and one of those wiggle points is that they don't have to publish a list of exploits that should not be used or how they are punished. This prevents the situation from arising where someone is using an exploit and claims that they cannot be punished for it because ZOS has not specifically called out that exploit.

In reality, ZOS is not enforcing the paragraph on exploits and cheating aggressively. All they are doing is nabbing some of the people who are exploiting it a lot, and if they catch them, those that brag about it or encourage others to do it. They aren't going after everyone, even among that group that I just mentioned. That much is very obvious.

They would prefer that people stop doing it on their own, and my guess is that this is happening in large numbers by now. In the end, what matters is that people stop doing it. It does not matter how many people are banned or suspended. This is where the Blizzard "take no prisoners" policy is different from what ZOS is doing. Blizzard has a different goal.

I know a lot of players want the Blizzard approach and ban everyone. I think that the answer is probably somewhere between what ZOS is doing (casual bans) and what Blizzard is doing (hardcore bans).

I think that ZOS can help people to stop cheating simply by making it clear that they are handing out suspensions and bans. There will always be the people in the forum who claim that it is not enough, or they are not catching the right people. There will always be the players who are willing to take to chance, or don't really care if they are banned. For most players, just seeing that ZOS is taking action will do a lot to stop them from cheating.

TL;DR: Notification of the "law" does not matter. They don't have to ban everyone for any little infraction of the ToS, and they are not. They are hitting select people with suspensions and bans, and that is doing a lot to stop cheating right there. They want people to stop cheating, not to ban everyone that cheats.