Cheating and Exploits

Tasear

People are expoiting same icons of potions and place them on middle of high quality potion. This especially being done between Magicka esscence and spell power no potions. This similar to same case from last year with ancestor silk scams, and trader scams players were committing.

Thogard

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

So, macros.



And please don't tell me the guy is capable of manually pushing a button 43 times per second.

He missed an la in the middle. You need to learn the basics of combat in this game.

He obviously has a macro that fires a LA first everytime he pushes the executioner button. That's why he misses a LA in the middle. No executioner - no LA.

(Basics of combat my behind)

If he had a macro he wouldn’t have missed the middle one.

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot. Most good players use a MMO mouse with thumb buttons and map their skills / abilities there. To do what you’re seeing you just hit the LmB then immediately hit the skill button with your thumb, then usually your RMB to block cancel the animation. It’s as easy as drumming your fingers on a table because it’s the same order (index finger, thumb, middle finger) every time.

If you can’t pull that off yourself you should see a doctor. It took me 20 minutes to get used to it and I’m in my 30s. Learning to play guitar is many orders of magnitude more difficult than that.

If it’s the same delay each time, and he lands a LA each time, then you can accuse him of macros. But your proof literally showed that he missed a light attack... and there’s no reason not to use a LA on every single skill.

Sharee

Thogard wrote: »

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot.

"Turn on the annual Major League Gaming tournaments and you see a different class of player. Watching professionals will quickly make you realize competitive e-sports players can perform 300 APM at any given time. And, during particularly intensive battles, their numbers can go up to 600. That's 10 actions every second. In these instances player hands become a blur, their keyboards emit a whirring hum – the result of multiple key presses that are indistinguishable from one another. It's inconceivable to the average player, who couldn't perform ten random actions in a second, never mind ten purposeful ones."
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/24/starcraft-2-and-the-quest-for-the-highest-apm/

The keypress frequency in the first example on the screenshot is 43 per second. That is equal to over 2500 APM.

("He wouldnt miss a LA if he had a macro" and "a macro would have the same delay every time" have already been addressed in the previous replies.)

Elsonso

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot.

"Turn on the annual Major League Gaming tournaments and you see a different class of player. Watching professionals will quickly make you realize competitive e-sports players can perform 300 APM at any given time. And, during particularly intensive battles, their numbers can go up to 600. That's 10 actions every second. In these instances player hands become a blur, their keyboards emit a whirring hum – the result of multiple key presses that are indistinguishable from one another. It's inconceivable to the average player, who couldn't perform ten random actions in a second, never mind ten purposeful ones."
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/24/starcraft-2-and-the-quest-for-the-highest-apm/

The keypress frequency in the first example on the screenshot is 43 per second. That is equal to over 2500 APM.

("He wouldnt miss a LA if he had a macro" and "a macro would have the same delay every time" have already been addressed in the previous replies.)

Your evidence is interesting, but not conclusive.

Being able to press a number key within 20 milliseconds after pressing the mouse button, twice over more than 2 seconds, is a feat of coordination and timing. This is a task that can be done with two hands. If you can clap your hands, you have the basic coordination to be able to press a mouse button followed by a number key with two hands. After that, it is a matter of practice, and that is the hell that is animation canceling in this game. As a sample of 2, the screen shot is not enough.

While the log generated on the target game client can certainly tell us what hit and when, it is less reliable when it comes to what attacked and when. Just because the light attack and Execute are arriving within 0.02 seconds does not mean that the attack was done at the same interval. The error in the timing is going to be dependent on the variability of the game latency for both the attacker and the target, plus variations in server processing times. As we are talking tens of milliseconds, my feeling is that this might be very close to the noise level of the connection between two players. Without more information, it is hard to tell.

APM (Actions Per Minute) is an average, which does not accurately retain burst information. This is usually determined by taking the number of actions over a period of time, which puts our attacker in the screen shot at somewhere between 100 and 150 APM. That is about the same as a slow typist. Burst APM is interesting, but with nothing to compare to, it is meaningless.

There is not enough information in that one screen shot to sort out exactly how they are doing it. They could be using a macro that fires a light attack followed by Execute after 20ms, or it could be that the player is very good at pressing that number key and the mouse button at the "same time" such that they get the desired response from the game, or it could be that most of the time they don't get the combination right, but we just happened to catch it.

Not conclusive. Need more than 2.5 seconds of analysis showing only 2 instances of the potential macro.

Sharee

lordrichter wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot.

"Turn on the annual Major League Gaming tournaments and you see a different class of player. Watching professionals will quickly make you realize competitive e-sports players can perform 300 APM at any given time. And, during particularly intensive battles, their numbers can go up to 600. That's 10 actions every second. In these instances player hands become a blur, their keyboards emit a whirring hum – the result of multiple key presses that are indistinguishable from one another. It's inconceivable to the average player, who couldn't perform ten random actions in a second, never mind ten purposeful ones."
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/24/starcraft-2-and-the-quest-for-the-highest-apm/

The keypress frequency in the first example on the screenshot is 43 per second. That is equal to over 2500 APM.

("He wouldnt miss a LA if he had a macro" and "a macro would have the same delay every time" have already been addressed in the previous replies.)

Your evidence is interesting, but not conclusive.

Being able to press a number key within 20 milliseconds after pressing the mouse button, twice over more than 2 seconds, is a feat of coordination and timing.

The best players in the world cap out at 100ms, yet a random TESO player manages to be 5 times faster. You'll excuse me if i remain skeptical.

Idinuse

lordrichter wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot.

"Turn on the annual Major League Gaming tournaments and you see a different class of player. Watching professionals will quickly make you realize competitive e-sports players can perform 300 APM at any given time. And, during particularly intensive battles, their numbers can go up to 600. That's 10 actions every second. In these instances player hands become a blur, their keyboards emit a whirring hum – the result of multiple key presses that are indistinguishable from one another. It's inconceivable to the average player, who couldn't perform ten random actions in a second, never mind ten purposeful ones."
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/24/starcraft-2-and-the-quest-for-the-highest-apm/

The keypress frequency in the first example on the screenshot is 43 per second. That is equal to over 2500 APM.

("He wouldnt miss a LA if he had a macro" and "a macro would have the same delay every time" have already been addressed in the previous replies.)

Your evidence is interesting, but not conclusive.

Being able to press a number key within 20 milliseconds after pressing the mouse button, twice over more than 2 seconds, is a feat of coordination and timing. This is a task that can be done with two hands. If you can clap your hands, you have the basic coordination to be able to press a mouse button followed by a number key with two hands. After that, it is a matter of practice, and that is the hell that is animation canceling in this game. As a sample of 2, the screen shot is not enough.

While the log generated on the target game client can certainly tell us what hit and when, it is less reliable when it comes to what attacked and when. Just because the light attack and Execute are arriving within 0.02 seconds does not mean that the attack was done at the same interval. The error in the timing is going to be dependent on the variability of the game latency for both the attacker and the target, plus variations in server processing times. As we are talking tens of milliseconds, my feeling is that this might be very close to the noise level of the connection between two players. Without more information, it is hard to tell.

APM (Actions Per Minute) is an average, which does not accurately retain burst information. This is usually determined by taking the number of actions over a period of time, which puts our attacker in the screen shot at somewhere between 100 and 150 APM. That is about the same as a slow typist. Burst APM is interesting, but with nothing to compare to, it is meaningless.

There is not enough information in that one screen shot to sort out exactly how they are doing it. They could be using a macro that fires a light attack followed by Execute after 20ms, or it could be that the player is very good at pressing that number key and the mouse button at the "same time" such that they get the desired response from the game, or it could be that most of the time they don't get the combination right, but we just happened to catch it.

Not conclusive. Need more than 2.5 seconds of analysis showing only 2 instances of the potential macro.

While your analysis of the interval (2.5 sec duration) of the screenshot in question might be correct, a screenshot is seldom the one and only example of a particular players interval between skill shots. We usually have experienced skills, shots and combos executed in specifically short intervals and order numerous times from a player before we find it of interest to produce a screenshot documenting what we see in game, however I do apply a rule myself that when the timing of skills/pauses is spot on time after time, I find reason to supply ZOS with a screenshot with a question about it.

On a different note, the missed LA in the middle would be less explained by skill/muscle memory, given it's allegedly so easy to perform manually, as opposed to being used to pressing one button for a particular combo and less used to throwing in a very easy LA in between skills. Just my opinion.

Elsonso

Sharee wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

It’s really easy to do what you’re seeing in the screenshot.

"Turn on the annual Major League Gaming tournaments and you see a different class of player. Watching professionals will quickly make you realize competitive e-sports players can perform 300 APM at any given time. And, during particularly intensive battles, their numbers can go up to 600. That's 10 actions every second. In these instances player hands become a blur, their keyboards emit a whirring hum – the result of multiple key presses that are indistinguishable from one another. It's inconceivable to the average player, who couldn't perform ten random actions in a second, never mind ten purposeful ones."
https://www.engadget.com/2014/10/24/starcraft-2-and-the-quest-for-the-highest-apm/

The keypress frequency in the first example on the screenshot is 43 per second. That is equal to over 2500 APM.

("He wouldnt miss a LA if he had a macro" and "a macro would have the same delay every time" have already been addressed in the previous replies.)

Your evidence is interesting, but not conclusive.

Being able to press a number key within 20 milliseconds after pressing the mouse button, twice over more than 2 seconds, is a feat of coordination and timing.

The best players in the world cap out at 100ms, yet a random TESO player manages to be 5 times faster. You'll excuse me if i remain skeptical.

"The best players in the world cap out at 100ms." That is an average, not a cap. To get that average, they are capping out better than that.

This guy? In all of recorded human history, he has been confirmed to have exceeded 100ms twice, in period lasting just 2.5 seconds. Not only that, he is attacking at a pace that a slow typist can keep up with. He has boatloads of time to set up his fingers to fire off those key and mouse presses.

Remain skeptical, as you wish, but while you are doing that, find better evidence. It's not that I don't think macros could have been used, it is merely that it isn't conclusive based on that one screen shot. Not without more information to compare it against. Let's see some data from people who are actually using a macro with a known delay between the mouse and key.

Gronk

lidé, kteří poskytují takové důkazy, jsou zakázáni

smart people would look at Lcore.sys and razor and AHK and smelly switch or vocal attack

macro can be one button less for two tree skin or rolling with toggle on. not enough shown on screen pasty to tell. provide more data.

sumtion inconclusive
data more needs
zenimax pull razor support and logic sport or tings will get whorse

don't bite each other fight cheaters

1. prooph
2. knowledge
3. expanation
4. documentation
5. best guess at what culprit ist
6. all off dis will only work if zen does someting if not we waste time and Gronk go play otter game Gronk take his many friends wit him dis go on way to long Paul right open api wast baad beta wast best time for Gronk

Sharee

lordrichter wrote: »

Remain skeptical, as you wish, but while you are doing that, find better evidence. It's not that I don't think macros could have been used, it is merely that it isn't conclusive based on that one screen shot. Not without more information to compare it against. Let's see some data from people who are actually using a macro with a known delay between the mouse and key.

Yeah right, let me just ask one of the guys openly admitting they are cheating.

I think i will simply go with what is more likely:

1, we have an elite guy capable of beating the world's best players in manual keypresses (yet somehow misses a light attack with his venomous claw?)

2, we have a potato with a macro he downloaded somewhere on the internet that does his light attacking for him on each executioner (but not on each venomous claw because the downloaded one doesnt do that and he does not know how to actually program a macro)


...right.

Elsonso

Gronk wrote: »

lidé, kteří poskytují takové důkazy, jsou zakázáni

That probably would not stop them, though.

Voltranox

I no longer care about proof of cheating and macros. Phooey.
The performances I've seen first hand have been enough to sour it for me.
I stopped playing and quit my subscription about 2 months ago.

I logged on today briefly and was again impressed by the fun social aspect of this game. Friends from all over the world.
However, I asked on 2 of my PvP guilds if cheating was still plaguing the competition.
The responses were blunt. One guild's answer was simply "yes".
Someone from the other guild answered "I just got ult'ed twice in a row by one lone player!". Hmm.

When I cancelled my subscription, there was an email address provided that I could use to send a message
to ZOS explaining why I had cancelled. I used it and got my first actual non-automated reply from them.

It basically said that they are constantly trying to combat it but it's an endless cycle of countermeasures.
I'm tempted to play again...but I'm very reluctant, because it seems like ZOS is still losing this 'cyber war'.
The endgame in ESO is definitely PvP. If it was fixed up, I would continue playing for another 3 years.

888and888

May I kindly ask why one player I have reported more than once because of macroing/using hack in Shor (EU) is still playing?

I have provided combat logs showing that this gent/lady is able to circumvent global cooldown rules with efficient regularity but he's still around..

I got no answer to my in-game tickets.

Many thanks.

rootsoflife

Well about Cheating and Hacking..

1. Don't allow any Add ons on PVP (miat etc... and is really problematic that you as a company you don't do nothing about that)
2. Don't allow animation canceling
3. Perma ban people and list their names and why you ban them.

And some things overall.. Cyrodill study but slowly starts to become a dead place, cause:

1. ridiculously easy keeps sieging (most probably they exploit the ninja sieging) and that destroy all the fun of defending a keep. Keep's need to be more powerfull at least 3 to 5 times more powerfull so the seeging to have some point.. the are Keeps and not papers you know..
2. Stop allowing multi alliance log in. Make it alliance account bount, and have some fee for the change if you want. for example "allow account alliance change once in month for some charge of AP (a lot fo them)" The multi alliance log in is one of the main reason behind the crap situation in open PVP (Cyrodiil) those days. Example "People log in to their red char. take some keeps, the relog to their blue char take the keeps back, the to yellow and so on.. " people they end up to farming and clubbing the AP and not actually play the game. If you don't have people loyal to their alliance do not expect any serious open pvp.
3. You Need to make some changes at how AoE skills work to stop the bombing groups cause right now they end up the only way to play in Cyrodiil. Game is total broken at this point cause of the overhealing overpurging everything via some extra powerfull sets, cheaty add ons etc. (the day in Cyrodiil is like that.. those groups starts they ninja sieging the keeps they stuck inside they can't die via any method (ballistas, skills etc) they kill and farm people, they go out and that's it.

that's it for now. Hope these suggestion do not end up to the void

ZOS_Mika

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth. Please be sure to be civil and constructive when posting in this thread. Thank you for your understanding.

rootsoflife

Voltranox wrote: »

I no longer care about proof of cheating and macros. Phooey.
The performances I've seen first hand have been enough to sour it for me.
I stopped playing and quit my subscription about 2 months ago.

I logged on today briefly and was again impressed by the fun social aspect of this game. Friends from all over the world.
However, I asked on 2 of my PvP guilds if cheating was still plaguing the competition.
The responses were blunt. One guild's answer was simply "yes".
Someone from the other guild answered "I just got ult'ed twice in a row by one lone player!". Hmm.

When I cancelled my subscription, there was an email address provided that I could use to send a message
to ZOS explaining why I had cancelled. I used it and got my first actual non-automated reply from them.

It basically said that they are constantly trying to combat it but it's an endless cycle of countermeasures.
I'm tempted to play again...but I'm very reluctant, because it seems like ZOS is still losing this 'cyber war'.
The endgame in ESO is definitely PvP. If it was fixed up, I would continue playing for another 3 years.

...About the ZOS explaination.. i don't want to disappoint you, but is the same company that allowed Add ons in PVP like "Miat" and more of the same style, don't have any policy of at least aprooved add ons and they also inform you that you forgot to upgrade your add ons. Also, there aren't any game masters in the game... youtubers play this role. Is the same company that start BG (Battle Grounds) without CPs make them with CPs (no one can kill no one) and now change it again to no CPs. This thing show us that they don't have a clear plan on their heads. Same thing happened with proc sets (back and forth situation between dlc/patches). And you expect by those people to do something to control cheating in the game????

Voltranox

Game masters would be great. Even better would be an automated system which prohibits cheating altogether.
I suspect the ultimate reason it's not happening is because the game system itself has flaws which makes that difficult.
And the cost of redesigning may be prohibitive.
Still, other games have done redesigns to combat cheating, and have succeeded.
They could incorporate features from the best add-ons and disable add-ons entirely.

I think it could be worth the investment. While they're at it, they could make an even better PvP map to fight over.
Finding a way to stop the cheating would be good for business though.
Loyal players like myself would return in droves, and it would probably attract lots of new players too.

Without a fix, and with LOTS of competition from MMO's coming out soon, this game may find itself sliding into obscurity.
There are literally dozens of titles in the works, by well known studios, and new grass-roots developers.
Loads of fantasy themes (including Viking), plus some futuristic, steampunk, and wild west themes. All fascinating.
One called Worlds Adrift will allow you to build and customize a Skyship...and have a flying base!

With so many imaginative MMO and PvP titles to choose from, do you think that players are going to put up with
bots, cheating and macros in ESO? It affects the trade market, leaderboards, and PvP especially.

Do I pay $180 a year to play on the same old map and get macro'd, and chase around god-like players pointlessly?
Or do I get involved in a new, exciting MMO/PvP game that allows me to compete on an even playing field with friends?
Easy answer.

Smithernest54

I am not sure if ZOS is aware or if they want this, but block casting is becoming more of a thing in Cyrodiil. The mentality is either join it or quietly be abused by it. I’ve been watching 1vX clips especially with DK’s, Templars, and Wardens, and they rely heavily on block casting. If anything healing while blocking is probably the exploit a lot of players are either consciously use or unintentionally. Block casting takes away from a lot of other mechanics like executions. Please stop this exploit as soon as you can ZOS.

antihero727

Voltranox wrote: »

Game masters would be great. Even better would be an automated system which prohibits cheating altogether.
I suspect the ultimate reason it's not happening is because the game system itself has flaws which makes that difficult.
And the cost of redesigning may be prohibitive.
Still, other games have done redesigns to combat cheating, and have succeeded.
They could incorporate features from the best add-ons and disable add-ons entirely.

I think it could be worth the investment. While they're at it, they could make an even better PvP map to fight over.
Finding a way to stop the cheating would be good for business though.
Loyal players like myself would return in droves, and it would probably attract lots of new players too.

Without a fix, and with LOTS of competition from MMO's coming out soon, this game may find itself sliding into obscurity.
There are literally dozens of titles in the works, by well known studios, and new grass-roots developers.
Loads of fantasy themes (including Viking), plus some futuristic, steampunk, and wild west themes. All fascinating.
One called Worlds Adrift will allow you to build and customize a Skyship...and have a flying base!

With so many imaginative MMO and PvP titles to choose from, do you think that players are going to put up with
bots, cheating and macros in ESO? It affects the trade market, leaderboards, and PvP especially.

Do I pay $180 a year to play on the same old map and get macro'd, and chase around god-like players pointlessly?
Or do I get involved in a new, exciting MMO/PvP game that allows me to compete on an even playing field with friends?
Easy answer.

They tried to stop the bots, it caused the biggest lag period in game history for about 3 weeks and still has never been the same. There are peramaters that set the red flags off on the anti cheat software if stats go over a certain threshold. IDK when you started playing but if you think the current tank meta is somehow a lot of players cheating might want to look up old videos of 7 people beating on an AFK sorc for 10 min taking no damage. Cheating has gotten much better but as soon as they ban for one way of cheating another way pops up. I think the the players cheating are far less than you think. I can be almost unkillable with the right gear as ZOS has made the meta possible. Wait for my magica sorc pvp tank next patch.

ZOS_CoriJ

We really value the expressed concerns and reports that have been mentioned here. However, we feel that this thread has deviated from its intended purpose. Initially this thread was created to remind users to constructively express information on exploits/cheating within the forum rules and to help promote information on the best ways to get attention to these issues.

A lot of potential topics are being dumped into this thread that would benefit from attention as an individual thread, and we feel that at 90+ pages this thread is losing some of its visibility in general. In addition are the occasional off-topic/non-constructive posts and deviation from forum rules which this thread was aiming to prevent.

With this in mind, after some debate we have made the decision to close this thread down. In doing so, here is a reminder of helpful ways to continue to both report and discuss:

• Make sure to Report in Game. Details can be found here. While not every action is instantaneous, it helps to compile individual user activity. Every report is investigated and any screenshots, videos, and additional context is very helpful.
• I know it's tempting to open another 90+ thread as a general conversation on this, however this also doesn't solve any concerns. Given how this thread ended up and the visibility it lost, we suggest bringing up specific matters as separate threads either in General ESO Discussion or on Bug Reports where a determination can be made on whether or not the issue is a bug.
• As mentioned before, please be sure to stick to the forum rules during these discussions. if you have a specific user to report make sure it's done through reporting and not on the forums. It really helps no fellow user to have specific names and only leads to further assumption, personal account discussion, and slander where it isn't necessary (or even always true). This is more helpful in the hands of people who can actually investigate.

For additional info, we suggest also taking a look at the page one commentary. While somewhat outdated, it still follows our sentiment on the concerns and how we will act on threads.

For everyone who has continued to productively use this thread, thank you for continuing to support the concerns of the community.