Cheating and Exploits

visionality

Grao wrote: »

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax's fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

I disagree. As long as the game allows it, you can't punish the player for using it.

Simple reason: you CAN accidentially or unknowingly use it - and then?

It must not be the responsibility of the gamer to learn which appliance of gameplay skills are allowed under which circumstances and which are not. It is the responsibility of the company to prevent things that are not supposed to happen.


ADDED:
I checked ToS, btw - there is no comprehensive list of known and forbidden exploits anywhere at all. The word "exploit" shows up exactly 2 times in the whole document.

Pomaikai

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

[quote="KramUzibra;3163422It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

You are actually obligated. You are required to confirm you have read the EULA & also the TOS. If you choose to click the button stating you have read both, without actually bothering to read them, then any ignorance is down to you. This is not being disrespectful, it is a statement of fact.

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

I had a conversation yesterday with a player who has pvp characters in all three alliances.
He stated that he intends to carry on using the keep / outpost exploits until he is banned. He also stated that he will ignore any warnings.
He has previously been reported. I was also informed that he had, himself, supplied video evidence to ZoS, who had replied & told him it was an exploit and that he shouldn't do it.
With such mentality amongst certain players, why is there any argument about what the ultimate decision should be for repeat offenders.
I have stated previously that accidents happen and someone can find themselves on the wrong side of a door at times. However, repeated and deliberate acts have no place in the game.
There is no defence to this - ZoS have stated that it is an unintended mechanic and that deliberately taking advantage of it is an exploit.

There is one other option available to ZoS that hasn't really been mentioned - disable all gap closers until the problem is sorted out properly.

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Yes they have, but not everyone reads these forums. So maybe there are people who don't realize it's an exploit that has been in this game for a long time. Hence why people keep urging ZOS to find a way to communicate it to the whole player base.

I'm not disagreeing with the need for greater communication. However it is now common knowledge and in this and many other incidents, the person doing it is fully aware.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you about the common knowledge bit. Unless you can prove that every single player is aware, and I'm sorry but as far as reading the tos you know people don't. Without getting into the legality of the TOS, informing the player base that gap closers are working improperly when it comes to keep siege is the right thing to do, warning on first offences and banning if they continue to abuse. NOT retroactive banning or banning outright. CE is Different matter. The intent to cheat is there all along and should be dealt with by a ban.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or not. What matters is I am sure I'm not the only one who feels this way. As such the reputation of this company is now tarnished in my mind.

There are a lot of people who still believe the Earth is flat. That doesn't make them right, nor their opinion on the matter valid.

Grao

visionality wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax's fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

I disagree. As long as the game allows it, you can't punish the player for using it.

Simple reason: you CAN accidentially or unknowingly use it - and then?

It must not be the responsibility of the gamer to learn which appliance of gameplay skills are allowed under which circumstances and which are not. It is the responsibility of the company to prevent things that are not supposed to happen.


ADDED:
I checked ToS, btw - there is no comprehensive list of known and forbidden exploits anywhere at all. The word "exploit" shows up exactly 2 times in the whole document.

If you read other posts I made you will see that I believe Zenimax can only punish those exploiting gap closers problems after sending a proper warning to the entire player base by Email and In Game Mail, both things they can do quite easily.

That way players will be aware of the problem. As for accidental uses, bans would only be sent after repeated offenses.

Anyway, if you read further down on my post, you will see that is not that I am defending at all. My hope is that Zenimax will be brave enough to own up their bugs and declare using said bugs to gap close into keeps in Cyrodiil is no longer an exploit. I am sure this would upset quite a few, but at least it would level the playing field, allowing everyone to take advantage instead of just those willing to break the rules of this game.

Cherryblossom

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Since people are still using cop outs to try to justify bans allow me to break it down in 3 easy explanations.

1. Exploitation with knowledge it is an exploit. Grounds for banning. No one is more responsible than the exploiter there.
2. Things break all the time. Fixes come as they come. Always have, always will. Furthermore, breaks do not ALWAYS occur pre-patch. Sometimes some slip in unnoticed and is not caught until afterward.
3. Appropriate action is taken before AND after fixes. This includes, BUT IS NOT LIMITED TO, explaining if something is an exploit. After the first announcement it is an exploit all bets are on the table. You gamble, you risk. Simple as that.

So yeah everyone keep telling yourselves Zenimax banning people that exploit a bug WITH THE KNOWLEDGE IT IS AN EXPLOIT are being unjustly banned, and we will continue to pity your ignorance on the matter. Not trying to be rude or harsh here, just tellin' the truth.

You're right things break all the time in this game.

However in this game the broken feature was seen before and reported, prior to being in the game.

With regards to this being an exploit, based on your own definition, if someone doesn't use the forum then they are not doing it with knowledge, it's just another feature in the game and they are not exploiting!

The simple fact for this actual issue is it was introduced on prior knowledge by Zenimax, they did not when they introduced this to the game declare it was an exploit and no one should use it!
They can't retrospectively then say it's an exploit because people use it, as they knowingly introduced an upgraded skill that allows you to enter keeps. The videos on the PTS clearly showed this and how it could be exploited.
Zenimax were aware, they choose to do nothing, they now are banning people recto-actively as more and more people learn how to use this. It's my belief in this case it is Zenimax's fault.

NobleNerd

visionality wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

I disagree. As long as the game allows it, you can't punish the player for using it.

Simple reason: you CAN accidentally or unknowingly use it - and then?

It must not be the responsibility of the gamer to learn which appliance of gameplay skills are allowed under which circumstances and which are not. It is the responsibility of the company to prevent things that are not supposed to happen.


ADDED:
I checked ToS, btw - there is no comprehensive list of known and forbidden exploits anywhere at all. The word "exploit" shows up exactly 2 times in the whole document.

There is a difference between something being detected and reported numerous times in PTR, but ZOS still releases it knowing it isn't working as intended and something that is detected in Live to have many exploit it. The 1st is a HUGE negligence on ZOS part and has created more harm than not trying to fix the charge/gap closers! Honestly they should just roll back the gap closers to a previous state until they can fix/improve the mechanics.

When it comes to the Cheat Engine issues.... I am still not comforted by the choices (so far) that ZOS have been proven to take. There are enough videos and posts out there to prove that many of the players caught using the CE are back playing the game. For me this is NOT a great way to win back my trust.

Tavore1138

visionality wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax's fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

I disagree. As long as the game allows it, you can't punish the player for using it.

Simple reason: you CAN accidentially or unknowingly use it - and then?

It must not be the responsibility of the gamer to learn which appliance of gameplay skills are allowed under which circumstances and which are not. It is the responsibility of the company to prevent things that are not supposed to happen.


ADDED:
I checked ToS, btw - there is no comprehensive list of known and forbidden exploits anywhere at all. The word "exploit" shows up exactly 2 times in the whole document.

Errr... no.

An exploit is something that is allowed by bugged code that ZOS say is not intended and should not be used. If the code didn't allow it it would not be an 'exploit' at all.

So as such it is covered in the TOS which you agreed to and ZOS can punish you in any way they choose.

I may be wrong but I doubt they'd punish you for accidentally using it... but if you jump onto the outer walls and then onto the inner keep and then siege from inside and insta-flip the keep you would have a hard time claiming you did it by accident... and you'd have to be some kind of idiot to think that was something that was intended...

The only people I have any sympathy at all for is DKs and that is only because they've been able to do it for so long it feels like it should be grandfathered in or something and most PvPers know that if you see someone below you flappy flap then they are probably about to jump on your face...

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Chiming in here since @Fengrush thread was closed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI


I agree with most of what Fengrush says here. He takes way too long to get to the point but he nails most of the points.

• ZOS's stance on cheating is confusing, poorly defined and inconsistently enforced.
• ZOS has failed to define and explain the difference between cheating, cheat engines, exploits, unintended effects of skills, bugs, etc.
• ZOS has failed to explain the differences in penalties, ban length, appeals process, unbans, etc.
• ZOS has been DISGUSTINGLY inconsistent in their enforcement of the types of behavior listed above.
• ZOS has allowed KNOWN CHEATERS (that have used cheat engine) back into the game after a "permanent" ban.
• ZOS has allowed this game to be so buggy and exploit ridden that its almost ridiculous to ban players for (ingame) exploits because historically there has been at least one each patch release.

ZOS at this point, I don't consider you a serious and professional gaming studio and I don't see how anyone else can see you as such.

Whatzituyah

Well a company like ZOS can bend the rules after its their rules. Questioning why the rules are inconsistant and why some people got unbanned after being permanently banned is why this thread exists. I have a simple answer why ZOS unbanned some permanently banned people they worded the anouncement wrong they should have said "Players have been suspended to be put under investigation to see their side of the story." I think that people took a slip up like that to heart because they wanted to believe its true. Same thing goes for cancelled games it was announced and you wanted to believe it would be released in the end no! It goes through development oblivion and then it dies because something just isn't going to work. @Yolokin_Swagonborn

bluedevilblue

Clearly the recent publicity has scared the cheaters horribly. /sarcasm A bunch of blues - non-dks - were exploiting onto the home bases of AD in Azura's Star NA PC this afternoon. They apparently don't think much will happen to them. I'm beginning to think they may be right.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

bluedevilblue wrote: »

Clearly the recent publicity has scared the cheaters horribly. /sarcasm A bunch of blues - non-dks - were exploiting onto the home bases of AD in Azura's Star NA PC this afternoon. They apparently don't think much will happen to them. I'm beginning to think they may be right.

Of course they are right. The name of this game has always been exploit early and often. The people who don't are left behind in terms of performance, gold, and materials. The ones that do get a slap on the wrist and get to keep all of their ill gotten gains.

The only people that got permabanned were the two exploiters that were perma-ulting and exposed to everyone that cheat engine exists, people were using it, and what it could really do. If anything they were banned for making ZOS look foolish to everyone and exposing what ZOS had worked so hard to keep swept under the rug.

Now more than ever, you are more likely to get banned for exposing cheating than for actually cheating.

Manpoints

A couple of things to keep in mind, no matter what a person says they got banned for, it may not be. Saying people are banned for this, or that, you dont know in the end, its between only them and ZOS. They can edit an email, or whatever proof you think you've gotten but it is tenuous at best. Its no coincidence that people start crying "I got perm banned for something silly" the same week that the anti-cheat is updated and countless other people got banned for cheating.

Also, the idea of using someone elses sucessful appeal? It only works in the situation whereas there wasn't the ability to provide proof yet. It absolutely has not been applicable lately. This if anything proves the failed appeals are more righteous, obviously ZOS is having a real look at these appeals, obviously when the proof isn't rock solid they unban, alot of people have been...but sure, keep shouting 'these guys are the exception'. Its not like ZOS is perm banning anyone without rock solid proof...god knows the other stupid unbans with only slight doubt have proven that.

Keep it up ZOS, keep perm bans perm, PVP has already become alot more competitive. The non-cheats appreciate it.

On three - one - two - three MORE PERM BANS! WOOOOOOO

Egonieser

Manpoints wrote: »

A couple of things to keep in mind, no matter what a person says they got banned for, it may not be. Saying people are banned for this, or that, you dont know in the end, its between only them and ZOS. They can edit an email, or whatever proof you think you've gotten but it is tenuous at best. Its no coincidence that people start crying "I got perm banned for something silly" the same week that the anti-cheat is updated and countless other people got banned for cheating.

Also, the idea of using someone elses sucessful appeal? It only works in the situation whereas there wasn't the ability to provide proof yet. It absolutely has not been applicable lately. This if anything proves the failed appeals are more righteous, obviously ZOS is having a real look at these appeals, obviously when the proof isn't rock solid they unban, alot of people have been...but sure, keep shouting 'these guys are the exception'. Its not like ZOS is perm banning anyone without rock solid proof...god knows the other stupid unbans with only slight doubt have proven that.

Keep it up ZOS, keep perm bans perm, PVP has already become alot more competitive. The non-cheats appreciate it.

On three - one - two - three MORE PERM BANS! WOOOOOOO

Hah, would be funny if they banned you, would be saying the same thing then xD I can bet all my gold you won't. So be silent. You yourself know nothing more than the people who you describe here.

Zoner

Egonieser wrote: »

Manpoints wrote: »

A couple of things to keep in mind, no matter what a person says they got banned for, it may not be. Saying people are banned for this, or that, you dont know in the end, its between only them and ZOS. They can edit an email, or whatever proof you think you've gotten but it is tenuous at best. Its no coincidence that people start crying "I got perm banned for something silly" the same week that the anti-cheat is updated and countless other people got banned for cheating.

Also, the idea of using someone elses sucessful appeal? It only works in the situation whereas there wasn't the ability to provide proof yet. It absolutely has not been applicable lately. This if anything proves the failed appeals are more righteous, obviously ZOS is having a real look at these appeals, obviously when the proof isn't rock solid they unban, alot of people have been...but sure, keep shouting 'these guys are the exception'. Its not like ZOS is perm banning anyone without rock solid proof...god knows the other stupid unbans with only slight doubt have proven that.

Keep it up ZOS, keep perm bans perm, PVP has already become alot more competitive. The non-cheats appreciate it.

On three - one - two - three MORE PERM BANS! WOOOOOOO

Hah, would be funny if they banned you, would be saying the same thing then xD I can bet all my gold you won't. So be silent. You yourself know nothing more than the people who you describe here.

Why are you mad though? So rude. You don't want cheaters banned, or do you think we should believe everyone who says they got banned for no reason?

visionality

NobleNerd wrote: »

An exploit is something that is allowed by bugged code that ZOS say is not intended and should not be used. If the code didn't allow it it would not be an 'exploit' at all.

So as such it is covered in the TOS which you agreed to and ZOS can punish you in any way they choose

Basically you say (in a complicated and confusing way) that it's the players duty to recognize all sloppy programming made by Zenimax and that he is to be punished if he uses a skill in a way that Zenimax recently deemd to call an exploit. In your opinion it is NOT the responsibility of Zenimax to disable said exploit.

lol

Surprised that I disagree?

My understanding:
1) I bought a game and I paid for it
2) The programming of this game is the "law" by which the game works. As long as I stick to the law (=I don't use external software to break/hack/cheat it), I'm safe with whatever I do
3) If the "law" produces unintended results, Zenimax adapts the programming accordingly
4) If I think the "law" prduces unintended results, I report it to Zenimax. If they don't do --> 3, it's intended.

Mind you: I'm not happy with exploiters and I'm strictly against cheating. But Zenimax is getting money from all of us to provide a game that can handle such problems. If they want us to handle them instead (by constantly updating ourselves on the current list of exploits and abstaining from using them), the money should flow the other way around.

Tavore1138

visionality wrote: »

NobleNerd wrote: »

An exploit is something that is allowed by bugged code that ZOS say is not intended and should not be used. If the code didn't allow it it would not be an 'exploit' at all.

So as such it is covered in the TOS which you agreed to and ZOS can punish you in any way they choose

Basically you say (in a complicated and confusing way) that it's the players duty to recognize all sloppy programming made by Zenimax and that he is to be punished if he uses a skill in a way that Zenimax recently deemd to call an exploit. In your opinion it is NOT the responsibility of Zenimax to disable said exploit.

lol

Surprised that I disagree?

My understanding:
1) I bought a game and I paid for it
2) The programming of this game is the "law" by which the game works. As long as I stick to the law (=I don't use external software to break/hack/cheat it), I'm safe with whatever I do
3) If the "law" produces unintended results, Zenimax adapts the programming accordingly
4) If I think the "law" prduces unintended results, I report it to Zenimax. If they don't do --> 3, it's intended.

Mind you: I'm not happy with exploiters and I'm strictly against cheating. But Zenimax is getting money from all of us to provide a game that can handle such problems. If they want us to handle them instead (by constantly updating ourselves on the current list of exploits and abstaining from using them), the money should flow the other way around.

Not quite - first I am saying that without bugs there are no exploits. So simply saying that you should be allowed to do it if the code allows it doesn't really work. Complex code sometimes has bugs and some of those can create unbalanced results and spoil gameplay so a company needs to declare them exploits that must not he used until they fix the code,

In this case they have said on multiple occasions that is is an exploit so they are not expecting us to guess. And they should in future be clear on which bugs are bugs, which are actually intended and which they consider exploits that should not be used.

And in the longer term they need to fix the code but finding and fixing deep bugs that may be deep in the code is not always something that can be done fast....

Your 4 point plan is pretty amoral - if applied to life it would make you a dangerous and unpredictable sociopath... in game I guess DB member...

Elsonso

visionality wrote: »

Tavore1138 wrote:

An exploit is something that is allowed by bugged code that ZOS say is not intended and should not be used. If the code didn't allow it it would not be an 'exploit' at all.

So as such it is covered in the TOS which you agreed to and ZOS can punish you in any way they choose

Basically you say (in a complicated and confusing way) that it's the players duty to recognize all sloppy programming made by Zenimax and that he is to be punished if he uses a skill in a way that Zenimax recently deemd to call an exploit. In your opinion it is NOT the responsibility of Zenimax to disable said exploit.

lol

Surprised that I disagree?

My understanding:
1) I bought a game and I paid for it
2) The programming of this game is the "law" by which the game works. As long as I stick to the law (=I don't use external software to break/hack/cheat it), I'm safe with whatever I do
3) If the "law" produces unintended results, Zenimax adapts the programming accordingly
4) If I think the "law" prduces unintended results, I report it to Zenimax. If they don't do --> 3, it's intended.

Mind you: I'm not happy with exploiters and I'm strictly against cheating. But Zenimax is getting money from all of us to provide a game that can handle such problems. If they want us to handle them instead (by constantly updating ourselves on the current list of exploits and abstaining from using them), the money should flow the other way around.

I assume you are talking about the gap closer exploit with keeps, and I also assume that by "recently" you mean back in 2015.

You misunderstand a few things. First of all, the programming by which the game runs is not the "law" that determines what people can and cannot do. This is not the "real world" with immutable Laws of Physics. This is a game with bugs in it. @Tavore1138 is right in that an exploit is a flaw in the programming that allows players to do something they should not be doing.

ZOS expects, per the Terms of Service, that if someone comes across a bug that can be exploited, they report it. ZOS actually gets to fix it as they see fit, on a schedule as they deem appropriate. Like it or not, and I don't like it, they get to spend months "working on a fix". In that time, ZOS expects that people will abide by the Terms of Service with respect to that bug and not use the exploit.

We do not get to choose whether something is an exploit or an accepted practice in the game. That is entirely up to ZOS, and they are not obligated by the Terms of Service to tell us either way. They have done this in only a handful of cases that I can think of over the last two years.

Any policy that a player has with respect to these bugs and exploits needs to start there, not with the premise that the player is, in any way, the arbiter of what can and cannot be done in the game. The best policy is to simply stop doing something once the player realizes that it is not intended and could be an exploit. Taking the "programming is law" approach is just going to set up a bannable situation.

Fortunately, ZOS is well known for not aggressively chasing down exploiters. This is likely intentional, for the very same reasons that people are complaining about in discussions like this. Not everyone know what is an exploit.

Pomaikai

^^^^
This!

This is why we all sign the TOS before playing the game. If you don't like the conditions, then don't click agree. The TOS can also change over time with zero input from you, the player. When that occurs, we have to agree to it again, and that has happened a couple of times since I started playing. In this game, ZOS is God, and their word is law. If you don't like that fact, or any of their rulings, then uninstall the game, reinstall it, and then click that you don't agree to the TOS.

ZOS's lack of enforcement and their inability to grow a backbone and provide a fair and level playing field in the game is a wholly separate issue from the TOS. It doesn't make it less important, it's just different. In fact, it's a lot more important, because it speaks directly to the integrity of the company, Zenimax, as a whole. As of right now, ZOS hasn't shown that it really has any at all.

It appears that they are trying to claw some back from the current wreckage, but as another user insightfully pointed out, these meager and mutable enforcement efforts may just be window dressing. A PR stunt to draw our eyes away from the ball. In other words, ZOS may just be trying to put lipstick on a pig.

I truly hope that it's the former and not the latter, because IMHO the game's survival hinges upon this issue.

Elsonso

Pomaikai wrote: »

ZOS's lack of enforcement and their inability to grow a backbone and provide a fair and level playing field in the game is a wholly separate issue from the TOS. It doesn't make it less important, it's just different. In fact, it's a lot more important, because it speaks directly to the integrity of the company, Zenimax, as a whole. As of right now, ZOS hasn't shown that it really has any at all.

One thing to consider is that ZOS does not expect ESO to be an e-sports platform. This immediately relaxes the dedication that they need to have on enforcing ToS violations. Games like DOTA 2 and Overwatch are different in this respect.

Agree, or not, but ESO is more of a "beer and pretzels" game. It explains how, and when, they fix bugs, how they treat PVP and Cyrodiil lag, and how promptly they address exploits and cheating.

Pomaikai

When you put in competitive PVP in the form of alliances (teams), then it's just a Swords & Sorcery eSport. It was Zenimax's decision to include team based PVP from the get go, and as such they need to keep it not only competitive, but a fair and level playing field.

If real or eSports had as poor a referee as Zenimax has been, they'd have been fired long long ago before they had a chance to damage the entire sport.

phbell

Oh my... Well, I have read all 39+ pages (thus far) of this thread and thrown in my $0.02 here and there. I have seen @FENGRUSH 's youtube video and see the sense of his positions. And... I have pondered all that has been offered in this and other threads in the forums. All of which has led me to a sad realization:

Regardless of intention, ZOS is unable to resolve the cheating issues in the game. Perhaps it is a lack of fortitude, but given the time I think it is more likely a lack of talent and know-how. The problem is just too big for them to solve. Perhaps Bethesda should have trusted the Elder Scrolls franchise to a more experienced company. it seems to me that cheating and exploiting is entirely foreseeable and should have been considered during game design. Everything i have read suggests otherwise.

Over the weekend I logged into Cyrodiil and within a few minutes I saw enough blatant cheating to log back out. For me it has ruined the game. I fear that if one is looking for a level playing field one will have to look elsewhere. ZOS is unable to fix this.

Eclipse0990

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

phbell

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Yeah, but you refer to the Gap-closing Exploit and they have not fixed that yet and all indications are they never will. The programming part stems from the trusted client model implemented and the inability to address the use of CE in any meaningful way. I am left to conclude that ZOS is stymied. What other possible explanation is there?

[BTW- I blew coffee out my nose at the "system32" comment. That really stings. Thanks]

Whatzituyah

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Well if only Microsoft figured out that system 32 should be hidden and undeletable. Microsoft is worse than ZOS in that regard.

Lava_Croft

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Well if only Microsoft figured out that system 32 should be hidden and undeletable. Microsoft is worse than ZOS in that regard.

I'd rather not have MS decide for me which files I'm allowed to see and which files I'm allowed to delete.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

My question is how can you even ban for something like gap closers as a player that has mained a Nightblade since beta I try to catch people that are hitting a b line to a door and get pulled in. Now I'm just trying to get a kill not auto Argo every NPC and have to hide or die to the NPC/Player combo.

What happens to me in this case are we not a gap close on a guy near a door cause we can get reported by a salty player that's 100% Nightblades can go pass door on command. This is not Dragon Leaping up a wall. Even if it was you need not do anything special to pull off either.

All the times I teleported in a door it was just me trying to catch someone that made a break for it. Not I have got to just the right place to Ambush into a tower in a resource. I can see and understand flagging that as an exploit. But if your a Nightblade or any class now that you couldn't fix bad pathing so you made all gap closers a teleport, you run the real risk of a life time ban for guy hitting a guy.

So if we are not in Melee range is the new rule to only range the guy down and not dare use a power to close the gap and drop some real damage Melee damage to kill them? If I'm fighting in a tower in a keep with my Dragon Knight not using Seige Shield but just fighting and a player gets near the edge doing nothing special mind you my ultimate will still read a clear path to the target so is just using the power an exploit now?

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

^^^^ Too long don't read?

You can't ban players for powers being buggy.

Ackwalan

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

Grao

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

Are you really sure players are actually getting banned for this? There is a huge difference between Zenimax saying using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit and Zenimax actually doing something about this.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

I camp doors to look for Forward Camps and cut down reinforcement I can see 100% going it to a keep makes what I do near impossible. If I make a player call in back that's players not on counter seige not on top on keeping camps down.

You can have fun inside a keep to be sure but you're not doing anything to advance the fight. You can't do much and you spend more time running and hiding then killing.

From the outside you can put in work on the inside you can only gank once before they are on alert. I can kill two maybe three guys in the end on a siege line before I get ten people popping Mage light. Then what good am I doing none. Alternatively I can kill the three outside guards without anyone noticing and the tower Mage lay down Beast trap and sit on the door with Camo hunters killing the back out I can see where they run from and go camp the camp.

Being in the keep is never what I want to do cause it makes what I do hard as f*ck. But I do go though walls daily. Never plan it and always jump out cause one or two AFK kills < the 10-20 kills on the outside. The math is easy here. Stay out live longer kill more then more for the fight, stay in get ran down fight 1vX most likely die have to run all the way back what did you gain Jack and Sh*t.

If you solo and don't run in the Zergs and all three sides Zerg hard. This is the most you can do for the fight.

Grao wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

Are you really sure players are actually getting banned for this? There is a huge difference between Zenimax saying using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit and Zenimax actually doing something about this.

We can't name the friends/guildlies we have that have been banned or they will delete your post.

Edit grammar.

Eclipse0990

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

I camp doors to look for Forward Camps and cut down reinforcement I can see 100% going it to a keep makes what I do near impossible. If I make a player call in back that's players not on counter seige not on top on keeping camps down.

You can have fun inside a keep to be sure but you're not doing anything to advance the fight. You can't do much and you spend more time running and hiding then killing.

From the outside you can put in work on the inside you can only gank once before they are on alert. I can kill two maybe three guys in the end on a siege line before I get ten people popping Mage light. Then what good am I doing none. Alternatively I can kill the three outside guards without anyone noticing and the tower Mage lay down Beast trap and sit on the door with Camo hunters killing the back out I can see where they run from and go camp the camp.

Being in the keep is never what I want to do cause it makes what I do hard as f*ck. But I do go though walls daily. Never plan it and always jump out cause one or two AFK kills < the 10-20 kills on the outside. The math is easy here. Stay out live longer kill more then more for the fight, stay in get ran down fight 1vX most likely die have to run all the way back what did you gain Jack and Sh*t.

If you solo and don't run in the Zergs and all three sides Zerg hard. This is the most you can do for the fight.

Grao wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

Are you really sure players are actually getting banned for this? There is a huge difference between Zenimax saying using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit and Zenimax actually doing something about this.

We can name the friends/guildlies we have that have been banned or they will delete your post.

As many have stated, getting into keeps accidently is one thing. Gap closing into empty keeps on NPCs and then capping the flags will categorize as intentional. Because one is jumping on NPCs and that too regularly. That is what we as a community need to stop doing!