Cheating and Exploits

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

I camp doors to look for Forward Camps and cut down reinforcement I can see 100% going it to a keep makes what I do near impossible. If I make a player call in back that's players not on counter seige not on top on keeping camps down.

You can have fun inside a keep to be sure but you're not doing anything to advance the fight. You can't do much and you spend more time running and hiding then killing.

From the outside you can put in work on the inside you can only gank once before they are on alert. I can kill two maybe three guys in the end on a siege line before I get ten people popping Mage light. Then what good am I doing none. Alternatively I can kill the three outside guards without anyone noticing and the tower Mage lay down Beast trap and sit on the door with Camo hunters killing the back out I can see where they run from and go camp the camp.

Being in the keep is never what I want to do cause it makes what I do hard as f*ck. But I do go though walls daily. Never plan it and always jump out cause one or two AFK kills < the 10-20 kills on the outside. The math is easy here. Stay out live longer kill more then more for the fight, stay in get ran down fight 1vX most likely die have to run all the way back what did you gain Jack and Sh*t.

If you solo and don't run in the Zergs and all three sides Zerg hard. This is the most you can do for the fight.

Grao wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

People aren't getting banned for accidently gap into a keep once in awhile. When they repeatedly do it, they are. Of course, they all say they only did by accident.

Are you really sure players are actually getting banned for this? There is a huge difference between Zenimax saying using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit and Zenimax actually doing something about this.

We can name the friends/guildlies we have that have been banned or they will delete your post.

As many have stated, getting into keeps accidently is one thing. Gap closing into empty keeps on NPCs and then capping the flags will categorize as intentional. Because one is jumping on NPCs and that too regularly. That is what we as a community need to stop doing!

I understand that but, I get in so many times a day doing my normal thing but they will ban anyone reported enough and salty people will report you and have their group do the same. I have been in groups were someone would say lets all report X for Y.

Plus like I said it can be fun to be on the inside so if we lose a keep and I'm on the inner I hide so how do you prove I don't just hide and not exploited.

ZoS is not known for fine point fixes but for they rushed, half baked broad strokes ideas.

Whatzituyah

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Well if only Microsoft figured out that system 32 should be hidden and undeletable. Microsoft is worse than ZOS in that regard.

I'd rather not have MS decide for me which files I'm allowed to see and which files I'm allowed to delete.

While I would agree what would you accomplish by breaking your computer? @Lava_Croft

I thought they removed those npcs. @Eclipse0990

KramUzibra

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

It absolutely does excuse them. Your so big on the rules well there is no rule that stipulates I must regularly check eso news, follow ESO social media pages, or join the forums. To assume I'm ignorant and should educate myself because you disagree with my perspective on the subject at hand is not constructive and bordering on disrespect. I come from a console back ground and never before have been obligated to seek out the do's and don'ts of whatever game I have purchased. You can't dictate other individuals responsibilities. Again it's zos responsibility to clearly articulate their stance on this particular matter in such a way that guarantees visibility to the entire player base.

You are actually obligated. You are required to confirm you have read the EULA & also the TOS. If you choose to click the button stating you have read both, without actually bothering to read them, then any ignorance is down to you. This is not being disrespectful, it is a statement of fact.

I have read the rules and it say nothing about Gap closers and how to properly utilize the ability or when and where i can use it the rules also never said im required to create a forum account.

Sureshawt

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Chiming in here since @Fengrush thread was closed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI


I agree with most of what Fengrush says here. He takes way too long to get to the point but he nails most of the points.

• ZOS's stance on cheating is confusing, poorly defined and inconsistently enforced.
• ZOS has failed to define and explain the difference between cheating, cheat engines, exploits, unintended effects of skills, bugs, etc.
• ZOS has failed to explain the differences in penalties, ban length, appeals process, unbans, etc.
• ZOS has been DISGUSTINGLY inconsistent in their enforcement of the types of behavior listed above.
• ZOS has allowed KNOWN CHEATERS (that have used cheat engine) back into the game after a "permanent" ban.
• ZOS has allowed this game to be so buggy and exploit ridden that its almost ridiculous to ban players for (ingame) exploits because historically there has been at least one each patch release.

ZOS at this point, I don't consider you a serious and professional gaming studio and I don't see how anyone else can see you as such.

I don't always agree with Fengrush, however, I agree with the vast majority of what he says here. It really makes me sad to see what this game has become and knowing what it could have been. So much lost potential.....

The PTS issue is particularly galling and makes me glad I never wasted my time there since it is obviously just there for show. I feel sorry for the players volunteering their time to try and make the patches better and now knowing that this time is gone from their lives with zero return on the game they wanted to make better.

I wonder if upper management even realizes how poorly their product is being managed especially the PTS aspect. I doubt they read the forums.

Pomaikai

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

^^^^ Too long don't read?

You can't ban players for powers being buggy.

You can absolutely ban people for exploiting buggy powers. It's in the TOS.

Nefas

Went to Cyrodiil (Haderus, PC, NA). Walked out after seeing cheaters. Submitting video.

Pomaikai

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Roechacca

Huh. People must still be testing ZOS to see if they'll punish them. My bets on another thread asking why someone got banned.

Gamerscape2007

Pomaikai wrote: »

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Nooooo, this is why the skill needs to get fixed, so people CAN'T USE IT! Get it through your thick skull. Banning people is not going to stop them from using it. Trust me on that.

Roechacca

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Nooooo, this is why the skill needs to get fixed, so people CAN'T USE IT! Get it through your thick skull. Banning people is not going to stop them from using it. Trust me on that.

Theoretically it will. Once everyone in Cyrodiil that does it is banned, then it will in fact stop. It maybe difficult to hit pop lock for a long time but that's about it.

XDragonDoomX

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Nooooo, this is why the skill needs to get fixed, so people CAN'T USE IT! Get it through your thick skull. Banning people is not going to stop them from using it. Trust me on that.

Simple. Disable all gap closers until a solution is found.

Eclipse0990

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Well if only Microsoft figured out that system 32 should be hidden and undeletable. Microsoft is worse than ZOS in that regard.

I'd rather not have MS decide for me which files I'm allowed to see and which files I'm allowed to delete.

While I would agree what would you accomplish by breaking your computer? @Lava_Croft

I thought they removed those npcs. @Eclipse0990

I think not. I'll not divulge much (TOS you see). But you can still use the existing NPCs.

Whatzituyah

@Eclipse0990 I never try to exploit and I try to follow the rules to the letter. Also I don't have a good eye so I wouldn't know.

Eclipse0990

I also saw a few reds breaking down the corner of the keep(to find new exploit maybe?) on ebony blade PC EU. Duly reported for suspicious behaviour.

Laggus

visionality wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

As for gap closers, I think you are missing the point entirely, we all agree with you, this mess is Zenimax's fault, they knowingly insert this bug to the live servers even after hundreds of reports concerning this matter on the PTS, but as long as ZOS maintains their stance that using gap closers to get into keeps is an exploit, they have to enforce the rules. It is that simple.

I disagree. As long as the game allows it, you can't punish the player for using it.

Simple reason: you CAN accidentially or unknowingly use it - and then?

It must not be the responsibility of the gamer to learn which appliance of gameplay skills are allowed under which circumstances and which are not. It is the responsibility of the company to prevent things that are not supposed to happen.


ADDED:
I checked ToS, btw - there is no comprehensive list of known and forbidden exploits anywhere at all. The word "exploit" shows up exactly 2 times in the whole document.

How many times does "exploit" need to be mentioned for you in the ToS? Just curious.

Lava_Croft

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

^^^^ Too long don't read?

You can't ban players for powers being buggy.

Using Teleport Strike to bypass doors has been a confirmed exploit by ZOS for quite a while already. The health of a game does not solely depend on the developers, but about just as much on the players. A lot of these horrible exploiting/cheating issues would not exist if players weren't such terrible characters. Instead, ESO has a culture of exploiting and cheating that has been nurtured since release, both by ZOS and the players.

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Eclipse0990 wrote: »

Programming is not the key here. The key is ZOS saying that it's an exploit. Yeah sure you can use it since it exists. But then, why don't you delete up your system32 folder just because you can?

Well if only Microsoft figured out that system 32 should be hidden and undeletable. Microsoft is worse than ZOS in that regard.

I'd rather not have MS decide for me which files I'm allowed to see and which files I'm allowed to delete.

While I would agree what would you accomplish by breaking your computer? @Lava_Croft

It's my computer and if I feel like breaking it I want to be able to do so.

Pomaikai

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Nooooo, this is why the skill needs to get fixed, so people CAN'T USE IT! Get it through your thick skull. Banning people is not going to stop them from using it. Trust me on that.

Morals and sportsmanship. This is why athletes dope themselves, and when they get busted they lose all of their titles and medals.

You want to be a sleezeball cheater? Fine. But when you get caught doing so, and people WILL catch you eventually, be prepared to lose everything and be banned from the sport.

ZOS, you have to be like the Olympics on this. Quit molly coddling cheaters. Hit them so hard it knocks them into next week! When the majority of your players are too scared to cheat, then you've hit them hard enough.

KramUzibra

Pomaikai wrote: »

Gamerscape2007 wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

On Trueflame today we had the joy of Red's gap closing into keeps to to take them without sieging. Took two keeps this way which led to the map completely flipping.

This is griefing of the highest order.

This is why exploiters should be banned, and some permanently.

Nooooo, this is why the skill needs to get fixed, so people CAN'T USE IT! Get it through your thick skull. Banning people is not going to stop them from using it. Trust me on that.

Morals and sportsmanship. This is why athletes dope themselves, and when they get busted they lose all of their titles and medals.

You want to be a sleezeball cheater? Fine. But when you get caught doing so, and people WILL catch you eventually, be prepared to lose everything and be banned from the sport.

ZOS, you have to be like the Olympics on this. Quit molly coddling cheaters. Hit them so hard it knocks them into next week! When the majority of your players are too scared to cheat, then you've hit them hard enough.

On xbox I witness the majority of players using the gap closing "exploit" zos should ban them right? Even if they may not know it's an exploit?

Pomaikai

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

Elsonso

In the end, I expect that ZOS will not fix gap closers, but will add an invisible wall that will block them, similar to the chain pull suppression areas they added.

KramUzibra

Pomaikai wrote: »

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

I agree however after reading the rules myself i have discovered that the rules say nothing in specific to gap closing or when and where it is acceptable to use them. Sure you can use the argument that the rules say utilizing exploits is against teso and zos has stated on the forums that gap closing to scale keep walls is an exploit thus gap closing is against teso. However it must be made clear to all including those who do not participate on the forums so they know better. Also dks dragon leap is also in violation of teso since it can be used to bypass siege mechanics to gain entry into a keep. I guess every dk that uses this ability in such away also deserves to be banned?

Personofsecrets

Make sure to report suspicious activity citizens! You never know when someone is up to something!

Pomaikai

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

I agree however after reading the rules myself i have discovered that the rules say nothing in specific to gap closing or when and where it is acceptable to use them. Sure you can use the argument that the rules say utilizing exploits is against teso and zos has stated on the forums that gap closing to scale keep walls is an exploit thus gap closing is against teso. However it must be made clear to all including those who do not participate on the forums so they know better. Also dks dragon leap is also in violation of teso since it can be used to bypass siege mechanics to gain entry into a keep. I guess every dk that uses this ability in such away also deserves to be banned?

Of course they don't specifically say that gap closing is illegal in the rules. They don't have to. They SPECIFICALLY state that using a BUG or some sort of glitch for personal gain is categorically against the rules. It's an all encompassing rule. Yes, it requires that you can think and process information and have some rudimentary system of personal right and wrong, but cover it it does.

Just like speeding. They don't have to state what type of vehicle that you're using while speeding. You can speed in a car, truck, bike, motorcycle, moped, or whatever you happen to be behind the wheel or handlebars of.

phbell

Nefas wrote: »

Went to Cyrodiil (Haderus, PC, NA). Walked out after seeing cheaters. Submitting video.

Up until a week ago I played this game virtually every day. I have now moved onto other games because of the cheating. I am keeping an eye on this thread in the vain and remote hope that I will read someday that the ability to use cheat programs in the game has been eliminated; but I am not holding my breath. This used to my favorite game.

A real waste...

NBrookus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Make sure to report suspicious activity citizens! You never know when someone is up to something!

Reporting doesn't matter a hoot anyway. Reporting users? They still run in game weeks and months later. Switch to reporting with video evidence? Zero views on that video. I even reported a new (to me) exploit the other day when I accidentally did something I shouldn't have been able to. Zero views on that video.

ZOS isn't looking at reports.

Pomaikai

NBrookus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Make sure to report suspicious activity citizens! You never know when someone is up to something!

Reporting doesn't matter a hoot anyway. Reporting users? They still run in game weeks and months later. Switch to reporting with video evidence? Zero views on that video. I even reported a new (to me) exploit the other day when I accidentally did something I shouldn't have been able to. Zero views on that video.

ZOS isn't looking at reports.

Sadly, this is what will end up destroying a game that I love. I understand this, and it's why I am so voraciously pushing at ZOS to grow a backbone and start enforcing their own rules and hand down enough stiff and hard punishments that most people stop trying to exploit and cheat because they're scared of the consequences.

When there are no consequences to your actions, we end up with our current Lord of the Flies situation in ESO.

KramUzibra

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

I agree however after reading the rules myself i have discovered that the rules say nothing in specific to gap closing or when and where it is acceptable to use them. Sure you can use the argument that the rules say utilizing exploits is against teso and zos has stated on the forums that gap closing to scale keep walls is an exploit thus gap closing is against teso. However it must be made clear to all including those who do not participate on the forums so they know better. Also dks dragon leap is also in violation of teso since it can be used to bypass siege mechanics to gain entry into a keep. I guess every dk that uses this ability in such away also deserves to be banned?

Of course they don't specifically say that gap closing is illegal in the rules. They don't have to. They SPECIFICALLY state that using a BUG or some sort of glitch for personal gain is categorically against the rules. It's an all encompassing rule. Yes, it requires that you can think and process information and have some rudimentary system of personal right and wrong, but cover it it does.

Just like speeding. They don't have to state what type of vehicle that you're using while speeding. You can speed in a car, truck, bike, motorcycle, moped, or whatever you happen to be behind the wheel or handlebars of.

Haha proved my point just like it's the cities responsibility to clearly display the speed limit multiple times on every street. it is also zos responsibility to make it clear that gap closing is against teso to the entire player base. Again not all players are on the forum accounts, not all players know this is against the rules most players I play with treat this similarly to the dks dragonleap. Alot of players from console have come accustomed to utilizing exploits until the game's manufacturer prevents them from doing so. once zos makes it undeniably clear to all I'll agree with some sort of disciplinary actions until then I'm going to continue arguing my point. Maybe if they put a notice in the start up screen where everyone can see it prior to logging in.

Ackwalan

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

I agree however after reading the rules myself i have discovered that the rules say nothing in specific to gap closing or when and where it is acceptable to use them. Sure you can use the argument that the rules say utilizing exploits is against teso and zos has stated on the forums that gap closing to scale keep walls is an exploit thus gap closing is against teso. However it must be made clear to all including those who do not participate on the forums so they know better. Also dks dragon leap is also in violation of teso since it can be used to bypass siege mechanics to gain entry into a keep. I guess every dk that uses this ability in such away also deserves to be banned?

Of course they don't specifically say that gap closing is illegal in the rules. They don't have to. They SPECIFICALLY state that using a BUG or some sort of glitch for personal gain is categorically against the rules. It's an all encompassing rule. Yes, it requires that you can think and process information and have some rudimentary system of personal right and wrong, but cover it it does.

Just like speeding. They don't have to state what type of vehicle that you're using while speeding. You can speed in a car, truck, bike, motorcycle, moped, or whatever you happen to be behind the wheel or handlebars of.

Haha proved my point just like it's the cities responsibility to clearly display the speed limit multiple times on every street. it is also zos responsibility to make it clear that gap closing is against teso to the entire player base. Again not all players are on the forum accounts, not all players know this is against the rules most players I play with treat this similarly to the dks dragonleap. Alot of players from console have come accustomed to utilizing exploits until the game's manufacturer prevents them from doing so. once zos makes it undeniably clear to all I'll agree with some sort of disciplinary actions until then I'm going to continue arguing my point. Maybe if they put a notice in the start up screen where everyone can see it prior to logging in.

You are trying way to hard to justify cheating. It is exploiting to enter an enemy keep without knocking down a wall or a door. Make all the excuses you want, no one will believe you.

yodased

KramUzibra wrote: »

A lot of players from console have come accustomed to utilizing exploits until the game's manufacturer prevents them from doing so. once zos makes it undeniably clear to all I'll agree with some sort of disciplinary actions until then I'm going to continue arguing my point

KramUzibra

Ackwalan wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

Pomaikai wrote: »

I have ZERO sympathy for people who can't be bothered to learn the rules of the game they play. Laziness isn't an excuse for cheating. I'm so sick of this tired scenario being drug out over and over by people who have almost certainly been using gap closers as an exploit to somehow lessen the impact on themselves in case ZOS is starting to really crack down.

Done.With.It.

I agree however after reading the rules myself i have discovered that the rules say nothing in specific to gap closing or when and where it is acceptable to use them. Sure you can use the argument that the rules say utilizing exploits is against teso and zos has stated on the forums that gap closing to scale keep walls is an exploit thus gap closing is against teso. However it must be made clear to all including those who do not participate on the forums so they know better. Also dks dragon leap is also in violation of teso since it can be used to bypass siege mechanics to gain entry into a keep. I guess every dk that uses this ability in such away also deserves to be banned?

Of course they don't specifically say that gap closing is illegal in the rules. They don't have to. They SPECIFICALLY state that using a BUG or some sort of glitch for personal gain is categorically against the rules. It's an all encompassing rule. Yes, it requires that you can think and process information and have some rudimentary system of personal right and wrong, but cover it it does.

Just like speeding. They don't have to state what type of vehicle that you're using while speeding. You can speed in a car, truck, bike, motorcycle, moped, or whatever you happen to be behind the wheel or handlebars of.

Haha proved my point just like it's the cities responsibility to clearly display the speed limit multiple times on every street. it is also zos responsibility to make it clear that gap closing is against teso to the entire player base. Again not all players are on the forum accounts, not all players know this is against the rules most players I play with treat this similarly to the dks dragonleap. Alot of players from console have come accustomed to utilizing exploits until the game's manufacturer prevents them from doing so. once zos makes it undeniably clear to all I'll agree with some sort of disciplinary actions until then I'm going to continue arguing my point. Maybe if they put a notice in the start up screen where everyone can see it prior to logging in.

You are trying way to hard to justify cheating. It is exploiting to enter an enemy keep without knocking down a wall or a door. Make all the excuses you want, no one will believe you.

Not justification. I realise it's wrong and against the rules I know this because Im on the forums. Iv asked multiple players on console if they know this is against the rules all but maybe two or three know this and they only know this through word of the mouth. It's simple logic, how do u expect people to not break the rules when you don't tell them. Referring to the rules is not enough since they do not specify gap closing as an exploit. When I dragon leap from the outer keep wall to the inner keep building am I violating teso since this ability bypasses certain game mechanics. Is animation cancelling an exploit since it bypasses the animation of the ability to register damage allowing the player to perform multiple moves at an excessive rate to gain an advantage in combat? All I'm saying is these things need to be made clear. Since I'm aware this is an exploit I don't do it. Some players don't read the forums. They do not have to read the forumsforums because they are not obligated to do so. If they don't read the forums how do you expect them to know what actions are considered exploits?