Maintenance for the week of March 25:
• [IN PROGRESS] ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – March 28, 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)

Additional Context on U23 Combat Changes

  • forthwinds
    forthwinds
    ✭✭✭
    You're telling us to wear more defensive sets but at the same time set the speedrun for Sunspire at 30 minutes which requires class stacking stamnecros in glass cannon builds. Even then only 1 group has done a HM run in the allotted speed run time 4 months after release... these changes have to be a joke right?
    Dawnbringer ✦ Godslayer ✦ Tick Tock Tormentor x3 ✦ Immortal Redeemer x2 ✦ Gryphon Heart x5 ✦ The Unchained x2 ✦ Emperor x6 ✦ Grand Overlord
  • karekiz
    karekiz
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I honestly read this as:

    We REALLY REALLY like the warden/necro style of skill tree's being tank/heal/dps.

    We REALLY want that in our base class system. However that is going to take forever so lets change everything now and release it next year for the chapter as a full on class revamp.
  • Ashtaris
    Ashtaris
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    code65536 wrote: »
    So for those classes without Cleansing Ritual...

    Vigor?

    And again, forcing players into either PVP or PVE (Undaunted) to get skills or monster helms where we have no desire whatsoever to participate.
  • leepalmer95
    leepalmer95
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ashtaris wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    So for those classes without Cleansing Ritual...

    Vigor?

    And again, forcing players into either PVP or PVE (Undaunted) to get skills or monster helms where we have no desire whatsoever to participate.

    Buy it
    PS4 EU DC

    Current CP : 756+

    I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.


    RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...
  • Arieark
    Arieark
    ✭✭
    As always, we will be monitoring feedback about all the balance changes during this PTS cycle


    Think we all know what that means by now.
  • Onefrkncrzypope
    Onefrkncrzypope
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    [Quoted post has been removed.]

    Why is that dumb lmao.

    Is doing anything other than going 100% pure dmg really so stupid to you? Have some dd's slot a aoe heal?, have some slot some type of defensive ult for heal checks? A permafrost would be very useful with its aoe protection.

    Anti-fun = not hitting 100k dps anymore?

    Less DPS mean more time in the mechanic that less healing can't heal through. I am neither for or against changes until numbers but that's what I am seeing as a possible outcome.

    Less dps means you can't burn bosses past mechanics and will have to do them.

    If you slot more healing then you can heal it, this is a counter to power creep and overhealing carrying people and its a good change. You'll need less healing if you aren't all 18k hp glass cannons, even just swapping pure dmg ults in certain situations for a DD to instead use something like nova or perma for 30% dmg reduction will make it possible.

    The first time will reduce damage. What about the repeats? When ultis are depleted. I get that it sounds like a good idea but 18k isn't a glass cannon and the loss of ultis will prolong fights past the stress of the new heal nerfs.
    Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on July 8, 2019 10:44PM
    -Immortal Redeemer-
    -Extinguisher of Flames-
    -Gryphon Heart-
    -Potato-



    If I edited a post, it was for spelling. It is always because of spelling....
  • Elric_Ashborn
    Elric_Ashborn
    ✭✭✭
    To boil down and simplify the ONLY dev response on this topic...

    Change your build, some things will likely be broken as a result of changes, and hang in there while they make these changes.

    If it's any consolation the response to this patch has generated enough to get a response, probably due to cancelled subs.
    Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 8, 2019 9:41PM
  • karthrag_inak
    karthrag_inak
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Heyo gang!

    We wanted to quickly provide some additional context for many of the combat changes in this update so that everyone has a better idea of our goals.

    In Update 23 our main focus was to ensure there was an ultimate point of reference for abilities to properly match up against one another in their respective categories. This provides us with a solid baseline, where all abilities fit within a set of standards/power levels and allows future balancing passes to be much easier and timely.

    We're aware that some content has been designed around old functionality of abilities that existed beyond our standards and might need some sort of compromise in regards to how you engage with it and/or how we balance it. This is something we will be watching closely, however we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones. Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.

    As always, we will be monitoring feedback about all the balance changes during this PTS cycle, however we wanted to let everyone know that in a future PTS patch, the synergy from Orbs will not cause the Orb to vanish and can be activated multiple times by anyone not on synergy cool down.

    Really? Because to me it seems like you folks are trying to compensate for the ridiculous DPS explosion from the Summerset Trial sets, but instead of nerfing these sets to be reasonable but not Absolutely Essential For All Endgame, which of course would hit the bottom line, seems like you're "fixing" a lot of things that aren't broken.
    PC-NA : 19 Khajiit and 1 Fishy-cat with fluffy delusions
  • idk
    idk
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    code65536 wrote: »
    And the point of coordinated group content on a MMO--trials specifically--is role specialization. Yes, you can have DDs run defensive sets and slot more self-healing while also nerfing the incoming damage. But then what does that do to the role of the healer?

    This isn't a "consistency" balance. This is a "let's re-imagine the existence of certain roles" balance. Either you are not being straight with us and calling it just a "consistency" pass, or you don't realize just how radical these changes are. And I'm not sure which of those two is worse.

    The first question that comes to mind, do we really think they know how radical their changes are?

    I am not being funny. I think we all know Zos does not play their game at a serious level so they do not understand the context of their changes. These are the same people who thought a cast time on shields was a good idea.
  • Kagukan
    Kagukan
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    While trying to balance abilities keep in mind light armor is not the same as heavy armor. If offensive abilities are to be equalized than the same needs to be done with defense abilities. And with that, light armor will need better defense abilities than heavy armor.
  • Ashtaris
    Ashtaris
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Ashtaris wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    So for those classes without Cleansing Ritual...

    Vigor?

    And again, forcing players into either PVP or PVE (Undaunted) to get skills or monster helms where we have no desire whatsoever to participate.

    Buy it

    You can't just "Buy It". At least one of your characters has to have leveled the Alliance skill line to purchase the assault or support skills, and even then, I never leveled one character beyond what it took just to get Vigor or Caltrops. So will that allow us to purchase the alliance skills that we desire, or will we have to be at the max level to do so? If the latter, then ZOS can KMA :)
    Edited by Ashtaris on July 9, 2019 12:24AM
  • InvitationNotFound
    InvitationNotFound
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Edited: Still revert the Springs. Have to reconsider other things.
    Edited by InvitationNotFound on July 8, 2019 9:56PM
    We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome... - The Wrobler
    You know you don't have to be here right? - Rich Lambert
    Verrätst du mir deinen Beruf? Ich würde auch gerne mal Annahmen dazu schreiben, wie simple die Aufgaben anderer sind. - Kai Schober

    Addons:
    RdK Group Tool: esoui DE EN FR
    Port to Friend's House: esoui DE EN FR - Library: DE EN
    Yet another Compass: esoui DE EN FR
    Group Buffs: esoui DE EN FR
  • Royaji
    Royaji
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    idk wrote: »
    code65536 wrote: »
    And the point of coordinated group content on a MMO--trials specifically--is role specialization. Yes, you can have DDs run defensive sets and slot more self-healing while also nerfing the incoming damage. But then what does that do to the role of the healer?

    This isn't a "consistency" balance. This is a "let's re-imagine the existence of certain roles" balance. Either you are not being straight with us and calling it just a "consistency" pass, or you don't realize just how radical these changes are. And I'm not sure which of those two is worse.

    The first question that comes to mind, do we really think they know how radical their changes are?

    I am not being funny. I think we all know Zos does not play their game at a serious level so they do not understand the context of their changes. These are the same people who thought a cast time on shields was a good idea.

    Sometimes I think that the system that games with community created levels (like Mario Maker for example) use to prevent you from uploading a level unless you yourself are able to clear it should be applied as a general rule in game development...
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    In Update 23 our main focus was to ensure there was an ultimate point of reference for abilities to properly match up against one another in their respective categories. This provides us with a solid baseline, where all abilities fit within a set of standards/power levels and allows future balancing passes to be much easier and timely.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484215/ritual-of-retribution-is-doing-as-much-damage-as-elemental-blockade-and-also-healing-huh/p1?new=1

    ????????????
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • czar
    czar
    ✭✭✭✭
    I understood the point of these changes ever since the race "balance" back in Wrathstone. I still don't agree with them, and after doing some tests on the current PTS, my playstyle is ruined. It's not a lot worse since after Elsweyr, but it's not any better either. Sustain is horrid, dps is bad... I never struggled with these things before. I don't need to be best at anything, and I never have been, but it would be nice if I didn't have to be carried either seeing as I'm comfortable with LA weaving and used to be VERY comfortable with my NB. My fault for not having a group to run harder content with so I can easily farm BiS gear, I suppose.

    If you're going to keep changing the meta like this, can you at least stand by your original promise that crafted gear will be the best gear so us scrubs can actually keep up?
    stam scrub
  • Djiku
    Djiku
    ✭✭✭✭
    Heyo gang!

    We wanted to quickly provide some additional context for many of the combat changes in this update so that everyone has a better idea of our goals.

    In Update 23 our main focus was to ensure there was an ultimate point of reference for abilities to properly match up against one another in their respective categories. This provides us with a solid baseline, where all abilities fit within a set of standards/power levels and allows future balancing passes to be much easier and timely.

    We're aware that some content has been designed around old functionality of abilities that existed beyond our standards and might need some sort of compromise in regards to how you engage with it and/or how we balance it. This is something we will be watching closely, however we are not averse to the idea that players might need to adjust their current builds such as running more defensive Ultimates rather than offensive ones, or running more survival enhancing sets, rather than pure damage or buff oriented ones. Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.

    As always, we will be monitoring feedback about all the balance changes during this PTS cycle, however we wanted to let everyone know that in a future PTS patch, the synergy from Orbs will not cause the Orb to vanish and can be activated multiple times by anyone not on synergy cool down.

    So you are basically shoving your idea of how you want your customers to play your game down our throats. Playing more defensively is not fun for a lot of players.
  • Zayoo
    Zayoo
    ✭✭✭
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler

    You will need a LOT of compromise because really... Who did even come up with the ridiculous idea of only having one orb active at a time or making healers even less wanted? It sounds your ultimate goal was to completely wreck the game and make people scream at each other because possiblities are so limited. THIS IS A GAME ! IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN! Why do you constantly nerf and nerf, then buff again, then nerf again, then change this, then change that and then throw the whole thing overboard and start from scratch? Gonna tell you something about human beings in general... At some point there is just too much change !
    This game changes completely after EVERY patch. WHY??? Make better choices and stick to them. If I did my work like ZoS does theirs it wouldn't be long before I got fired.
  • Nifty2g
    Nifty2g
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    the synergy from Orbs will not cause the Orb to vanish and can be activated multiple times by anyone not on synergy cool down.
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler To be blunt and to the point; that Orb change sucks, you guys should rethink it.

    Why can't tanks just run orbs now and let them float through the group. You've been ruining the gameplay of tanking and making it less interesting patch by patch. Don't start doing it to the healers, you will see less and less of them. People don't like having nothing to do.
    Edited by Nifty2g on July 8, 2019 10:17PM
    #MOREORBS
  • Zayoo
    Zayoo
    ✭✭✭
    @ZOS_BrianWheeler and please don't use the so called "Standards" that you want to implement as an excuse for anything. The only standard I have seen so far is change change change change. That is a bad standard if you ask me.
    I haven't read most of the posts that have been the reaction to your way of doing things at Zenimax but I can definitely see a *** in there. And if you ask me, this time you have completely earned it.
  • coop500
    coop500
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    forthwinds wrote: »
    You're telling us to wear more defensive sets but at the same time set the speedrun for Sunspire at 30 minutes which requires class stacking stamnecros in glass cannon builds. Even then only 1 group has done a HM run in the allotted speed run time 4 months after release... these changes have to be a joke right?

    This, the DPS requirement they make for the game is insanely high, but they keep nerfing things so that the average player should never even dream of it because it's so far out of reach.
    Edited by coop500 on July 8, 2019 10:10PM
    Wishing for Lilmothiit race still! Or maybe Lilmothiit companion?
  • StarMightyMaster
    StarMightyMaster
    ✭✭✭
    Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.

    I guess they for got every healer is not a magplar and i guess they also think every healer has 30k stam to use Ring of Preservation that a stam heal and will work very well on the mag healer

  • Kikke
    Kikke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Meeeh, you really managed too "kill it" in the end eh?
    Cleared Trials:
    - vAA HM - vHRC HM - vSO HM - vMoL HM - vHoF HM - vAS HM - vCR HM -

    "The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step, and a lot of bitching."
    -Someone said it, I guess.
  • Heelie
    Heelie
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    This feels like a response specificly telling us that the ZOS balance team right now only care about pvp. As for all the pve players getting slapped this patch they don't care. Translated this post just means deal with it. ZOS has no intention of actually reverting or somewhat compensating any changes that seriously hurt pve. Specifcly this patch, healers. Brian Wheeler was the former head of pvp. And this shows in the balance changes in every way. Not a single thought was spent on the impact on pve. Making several players able to activate the orb synergy will just mean that dd rotations won't suffer as much. But healers are still left gutted losing 70-80% of their healing over time. Healing over time is the defining factor in healer skill, as this opens up global cooldowns to group utility. Without it healers are just a glorified Bogdan's monster set.
    Most OwOrated healer of all time
  • Zyaedra
    Zyaedra
    ✭✭✭
    I know this is just PTS and none of these changes are on live yet so there is still some chance that you guys will change things, however I have to say this is all extremely discouraging. There are several major issues you guys BROKE with the release of Elsweyr that have not been fixed--issues that were reported and known about since it was on the PTS (literally months have gone by with no fix). Now you guys have literally had your dev team code more game breaking issues ... on purpose? I am pretty upset that the $$ I've invested into this game has been used so poorly.

    I played SWG through its many iterations and have a very low threshold for being yanked around like a yo-yo because of it. I won't subscribe/invest into a game that is run by people who are clearly confused about the direction they want to take it or who are willing to cause class/role/content breaking issues in order to achieve some goal.

    Please explain to me, @ZOS_BrianWheeler, why should I continue investing into this game when it is so clear you/your team is more motivated to change the game and create more issues than it is to fix issues created by the changes you/your team introduces?

    BTW I main a healer and this patch, as it stands, is a big FU to the healer role. Thanks for that.
  • webrgesner
    webrgesner
    ✭✭✭✭
    it took 38 minutes to get unchained achievement with a healer. Can you imagine making unchained or other speed runs be impossible to get with these damage nerfs from dps. And me and the other nb dps are parsing 57k+ too....
  • Anhedonie
    Anhedonie
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Actually, I'm pretty fine with the changes in that context.
    Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.
  • Tryxus
    Tryxus
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please also remember that we've introduced some new abilities to help offset the loss of things such as Healing Springs stacking, with abilities like Ring of Preservation, or the large increase to Cleansing Ritual.

    Yes, my Warden healer will def be casting Cleansing Ritual...

    Oh wait :s
    "The Oak's Promise: stand strong, stay true, and shelter all"
    Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU/DC
  • Varana
    Varana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    This "additional context" doesn't even begin to address the issues with healing in PvE. Oh, have a bone, with orbs... that also shows how little you care about what people have actually been writing.

    How about you standardise your abilities in line with what your game currently is and requires, instead of just waltzing through with a chainsaw and then say "oh well, we might have to change our trials and dungeons, never thought of that..."

    I mean, Cleansing Ritual, a templar skill, and Ring of Preservation, a stamina skill? For sorcerer or warden healers? Would you be so kind to enlighten your players how exactly that's meant to help them?

    Listen to your players - the affected players, i.e. healers in PvE.
    And play one, just for a while.
    I'm tempted to leave an Insightful on that post - for the insight into how little you actually know about what you're doing.
    "We're open to the thought that players might need to change their play style" - I don't know, maybe not just be open to the thought, but think it through before you introduce sweeping changes? Like what exactly are players supposed to do, how are sets and abilities going to affect each other, are there checks in your content that rely on certain capabilities, how are certain roles going to perform?
    Edited by Varana on July 8, 2019 10:37PM
  • Slakk
    Slakk
    ✭✭✭
    I'd figure it's another "work in progress" patch to attempt to bring the approach of trial gameplay back long ago when nova was absolutely mandatory for not wiping. That's fine and all, yet coming out of nowhere with another patch that changes a lot of skills on the surface without readjusting content just seems like the least effort way to give it to the community. Plus it's been years, every patch just seems to have some different random "vision" and then the trials we get all have different design ideas that made more or less sense at the time.
    Changes like this just come out of nowhere without very good clarification to what their design vision actually is and then a patch or two later it seems like they get an entirely different vision.

    Also, the poor focus on technical issues before this kind of stuff is embarrassing.
  • Sriivah
    Sriivah
    ✭✭✭
    Heelie wrote: »
    This feels like a response specificly telling us that the ZOS balance team right now only care about pvp. As for all the pve players getting slapped this patch they don't care. Translated this post just means deal with it. ZOS has no intention of actually reverting or somewhat compensating any changes that seriously hurt pve. Specifcly this patch, healers. Brian Wheeler was the former head of pvp. And this shows in the balance changes in every way. Not a single thought was spent on the impact on pve. Making several players able to activate the orb synergy will just mean that dd rotations won't suffer as much. But healers are still left gutted losing 70-80% of their healing over time. Healing over time is the defining factor in healer skill, as this opens up global cooldowns to group utility. Without it healers are just a glorified Bogdan's monster set.

    Funny part is that it won't even really affect pvp. I asked one of the healers I run with and the response was essentially, "This changes very little for us". The springs/orbs changes are literally zos just shoving a stick into pve healers' collective eye.

    And as for the "build more defensively and heal yourselves!" thing... well, what's the point of bringing healers instead of 2 more stamnecros, then? I quite like my healers, they're nice people, and I really don't want them to receive eyeball sticks.
    I play all classes, but I main Stamina Nightblade and Stamina Templar
Sign In or Register to comment.