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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • BlueRaven
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

    I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

  • jarydf
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    Dear ZOS The solution is simple. Change the stealth detection passive back to reducimg your detection radius by 3m amd keep everything else the same.and we are done. There is enough difference in the other racial passives to make it still a different choice than the cats. Problem solved. Everyone back to happy. Thanks.
  • Ratzkifal
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

    I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

    I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

    More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

    There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...
    "stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
    (For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
    That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

    Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Wildbloom
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    ZoS wants the racials to be different. Key word: ZoS. Things like extra power from potions, ulti when struck, stealth increase, and resource recovering when doing damage all all little quirks that are different per-race. Each race has one, ontop of varying flat stat bonuses. I'm sure they saw khajit and bosmer having the same perk and thought they should do something unique with them to differentiate the races.

    So, khajit get crit damage and stealth bonus, bosmer get roll boost and...well, they can't have stealth bonus too, cause they gave that to khajit. So, they give bosmer something to fill their natural stealth niche while staying unique: stealth detection. Whee....

    I'm fairly sure that this is their logic, as much as it sucks. But, alls we can do is disagree. I've said before that I don't think they'll change anything at this point and I stand by this. I'm disappointed like everyone else, but there's only so much we as players can do.
    "Hello, Skellington Pal! How are you today? Bone dry, you say? I’d offer you a glass of water, but it’d all fall through! I need more coffee."


    ZOS_GinaBruno, patch 5.0.1 PTS patch notes, 4/22/2019
  • wedgebert
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    Wildbloom wrote: »
    I'm fairly sure that this is their logic, as much as it sucks. But, alls we can do is disagree. I've said before that I don't think they'll change anything at this point and I stand by this. I'm disappointed like everyone else, but there's only so much we as players can do.

    We can keep bringing it up. At the very least let ZOS know that if they can just ignore us for a couple of weeks everything will be fine.

    The initial outrage was to the terrible Bosmer (and other races) changes. However some of the longer lasting anger/worry is that they'll just keep doing this and eventually we won't recognize the world we're playing in.
  • Alucardmike
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    The more I am playing, the more I want to stop playing.
    Great work...
    The bird of Hermes is my name, eating my wings to make me tame.
  • Ogou
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    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, @ZOS_GinaBruno did say in another thread, before the stream, that they were not going to discuss the racial passives. I was surprised that she still asked him about the process even if it was indirectly.
  • ibeprofun
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    Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

    How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

    Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.
  • Ratzkifal
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

    How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

    Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

    *race
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Jaraal
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    Ogou wrote: »
    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, @ZOS_GinaBruno did say in another thread, before the stream, that they were not going to discuss the racial passives. I was surprised that she still asked him about the process even if it was indirectly.

    Well of course they wouldn't discuss it, it's a lose / lose situation. Defending the eradication of lore is not a winnable argument. Too many people expect the Elder Scrolls world to be logical and reliable, and those people aren't here to play Deathmatch Flavor Of The Day. I mean, there's probably a couple devs and players that like the changes, so they'll just say they don't want to keep moving the bar and upset the "balance."

    They've already lost players over this, so they'll just have to determine how much collateral damage is acceptable. Most of us would rather play in a TESO world that doesn't make sense than to not play at all. I mean, soon we'll be having dragons in the Age of Heroes that weren't there before. The thing about the fantasy genre is, the standard of believability is way lower than games based on actual history. Anybody can say, "Oh, the guy in charge of lore before me was wrong, here's how stuff is really supposed to be," and we shrug our shoulders and say, "Uh.... ok. It's your imaginary world, pal." But we may always regard the new standard with skepticism, and our faith that future lore will make sense is irreparably shaken. I'm at the point where I no longer say why, but rather, what's next?

    Whether I play or not hasn't changed, but how I play will. I resent all the time I spent into making my Bosmer a master thief, only to have him become crippled and ineffective at the type of gameplay I prefer. He's happy with his racial identity, he's not going to change that, but then again, I'm not a min/maxer who will make any changes necessary to be 1 or 2 percent better, if it doesn't make sense lorewise. But the real effect of the change is to make me regard Zenimax less favorably, and every time I'm at the character select screen, I'm reminded of what my guy used to be capable of, and that somebody didn't care about that, so it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. And it becomes something to where when I'm looking at stuff in the crown store or considering buying a new DLC, I'm thinking to myself, do I really want to give these guys more of my money? What inexplicable changes are they going to make next.... and will it be enough to make me look for a better game with a vision that doesn't change from patch to patch?
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • ibeprofun
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    Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

    ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

    It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.
  • A_Silverius
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

    How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

    Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

    Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ
    Edited by A_Silverius on March 17, 2019 1:37AM
    All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!
  • Night_Wolf2112
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    Not to derail... but adding dragons is another mistake! Are we to believe that a giant creature(s) with the ability to fly will only stay in Elswyr? Dragons should be; roaming, hoarding, or sleeping.... unless he's training the Grey Beards.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Jaraal wrote: »
    I mean, soon we'll be having dragons in the Age of Heroes that weren't there before.

    @Jaraal
    I mean, were they really not? Thurvokun went into hiding too and nobody knows how he died and that dragon was already canon since Arena. Tiber Septim had a dragon general if we take Elder Scrolls Adventures as canon, which generally is being regarded as such. That's a second era dragon. Paarthunax has been alive since the dragon war too and you can assume the same is true for the dragon of blackreach - Vulthuryol. Honestly that dragons have been a rarity after that despite some going into hiding might be explained through Elsweyr better than previous lore did, because we killed them all. I just hope we get a story for each dragon that explains where they've been hiding or where they came from to join the "three troublemakers".

    Obviously you have a point about how loosely canon is being handled when a new writer takes over. Best supporting example would be what happened to Star Wars, where lightspeed ramming is now a thing and we need to ask ourselves every time "why not lightspeed ram it?"
    Sure, there are things that we previously take as canon that then get retconned, like the tongues wearing the literal tongues of their enemies around their necks and shouting gate doors in during a siege, which we don't see in Skyrim at all, or the glass like architecture of Summerset (which we could even say is still canon as the source for that is from the 3rd era and the Altmer might invent that architecture later down the line). What I am trying to say is, so far these issues have not been severely enough for me to be bothered by.

    Oh and, I get the same feeling when logging onto my Bosmer and just end up doing mount training and nothing else.
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 17, 2019 3:45AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ratzkifal
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    Not to derail... but adding dragons is another mistake! Are we to believe that a giant creature(s) with the ability to fly will only stay in Elswyr? Dragons should be; roaming, hoarding, or sleeping.... unless he's training the Grey Beards.

    @Night_Wolf2112 My guess is that there is something about Rimmen and the Akaviri that has them all go there, but since the expansion is only Q2 but the year of the dragon is longer and will add another zone, we may be getting to see more places in Tamriel that are important to dragons. Perhaps Sky Haven Temple in Skyrim, perhaps just south of Cyrodiil. It all kind of depends on how many dragons we are actually talking about. We got three confirmed dragons, a trial full of dragons, a dungeon DLC with presumably one more dragon, and probably around three dragon attack "world events" that must have a dragon each (or perhaps the same one fleeing from the encounter once he is outmatched)?

    To stop this from derailing and to get this train back on track, I'll have to ask some important questions. Is the reason that Bosmer got better detection, that the presumed dead dragons have been hiding and only Bosmer can spot them thanks to their new passive? Will dragons be sneaker than Bosmer in The Elder Scrolls Online: Elsweyr? Is there any chance we can actually hide from dragons when we are not Khajiit?
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Ruckly
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    max_only wrote: »
    Major Points/TLDR for entire thread:
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    • We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
    • Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
      Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
    • Doesn't fit lore
      Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.

    Race description direct from Elder Scrolls game manuals throughout the years:
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

    (Hopefully got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_b550c1b8bd_z.jpg

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_3b487044d1_z.jpg

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_f579e32a32_z.jpg

    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_cd75e1be99_z.jpg

    (There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com


    To submit feedback to your Class Reps:

    The official thread:
    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

    Other threads of feedback:
    Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.

    On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

    Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.
    If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for years.

    ClKc8N1.gif

    w8zOMI.gif
    Edited by Ruckly on March 17, 2019 6:10AM
  • Ruckly
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    Based on numbers from this site:

    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor

    Base sneak detection for bosmer with Hunter's Eye passive is 9.5m and base sneak range in 7 medium armor is 4.5m. So in theory you would detect someone who just entered melee range(5 meters). It might be good for dodging wrecking blow but that is about it. But many people use Night Mother's Embrace which would reduce the range to 3m which is less that melee range. And Khajiit with any 7 piece medium would be at 2m.

    Maybe my numbers are wrong.

    That thing about giving your position away to another sneaked person based on proximity detection is dumb. I assume they can use the fighters/mages guild skill and find you right away.

    In order for this passive to be maybe useful you would have to use Way of Air and you might have time to block an Incapacitating Strike. Passives that requires a specific set to be useful is imo a bad idea. And it is only seems useful against nightblades that want to hit you with melee. It doesn't seem a good tool for finding nightblades because they move quick with cloak and major expedition. It is easy for them to evade your radius.
  • wishlist14
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    :#I'm done!!

    I've wanted to play one character of each race for a while and finally got close, I was just missing a nord but I don't tank. Today, I did a bit of research on what would be the best build for my lil wood elf and apparantly found out she would only be good to rp Lolita. It disturbed me so much I decided to race and name change her to a redguard.

    So all these changes to see Redguards and orcs best race for stamina builds
    Altmer best race for Magicka builds?

    Thank you for dumbing it down to 3 race choices





    Edited by wishlist14 on March 17, 2019 8:21AM
  • Tasear
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

    I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

    I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

    More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

    There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...
    "stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
    (For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
    That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

    Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

    Not the correct story
  • MartiniDaniels
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    max_only wrote: »
    Something a guildmate pointed out to me (who isn’t a Bosmer and isn’t interested in ever being one) is that we have to spend Stamina doing an ACTION in order to get our PASSIVE.

    I said that it irked me yes, but so many rolypoly players love it, I’d get no support if I called for change. If it was me, I’d have the extra penetration on all the time, no roll dodge required. But I’ve hesitated to bring it up and muddy the waters.
    wishlist14 wrote: »
    :#I'm done!!

    I've wanted to play one character of each race for a while and finally got close, I was just missing a nord but I don't tank. Today, I did a bit of research on what would be the best build for my lil wood elf and apparantly found out she would only be good to rp Lolita. It disturbed me so much I decided to race and name change her to a redguard.

    So all these changes to see Redguards and orcs best race for stamina builds
    Altmer best race for Magicka builds?

    Thank you for dumbing it down to 3 race choices






    Well, it's quite pointless change if you are looking for stats only. Orcs are better then any stamrace, yes, but redguards and bosmers are almost the same, if you calculate redguard sustain bonuses and bosmer sustain you will see that it is almost the same and redguard is slightly better in "dummy-like" bosses, but as soon as there are mechanics where you can't attack for several seconds and need to move somewhere, recover from cc etc, bosmer comes in front with notable margin, because wood elf recovery works always (aside from sprinting, crouching and blocking, and you don't do that much in PVE content) while redguard passives works only on active use.
    In PVP bosmer is still very good, because as stam class you roll-dodge a lot.

    So it's more about lost of overland stealth then combat efficiency. Also it's a pity that no bonuses at all for bosmer healers, but same may be said about a lot of races, most are pigeonholed to one role in PVE.
  • colossalvoids
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

    ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

    It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.
  • BlueRaven
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

    ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

    It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

    I can’t tell if this a troll, or someone who is bad at reading comprehension...

    And I love how people constantly use RP as a negative. Like everyone here played Skyrim because of it’s wonderful inventory UI and multiplayer aspects.

    And this bit...

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it.


    That’s obviously bait, right?

    Edit:
    Looking at this comment section I wonder who still thinks that endgamers are more toxic than regular crowd.

    Gratz and keep on conquering!

    Oh! Oh! Oh! I can answer that, want to see an example?
    Edited by BlueRaven on March 17, 2019 12:49PM
  • Ratzkifal
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    Tasear wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

    To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

    I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

    I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

    More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

    There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...
    "stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
    (For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
    That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

    Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

    Not the correct story

    @Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • wedgebert
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    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Except any changes to Bosmer being competitive come from its stamina recovery passive and max stamina passive. Hunter's Eye is contributing 0% towards any competitive advantage. Any I'd wager everyone complaining in this thread is perfectly happy to with those passives (with the possible bewilderment of losing disease resistance but keeping poison).

    As to being top sustain, if I want the best stamina sustain I'd choose redguard. So long as I can land a melee attack every 5 seconds (which isn't that hard to do in most fights), I'd have 380 extra stam recovery compared to the Bosmer 258. Plus my weapon abilities cost 8% less, saving even more stamina. Only times Bosmer have better recovery are if they're going Bow/Bow, have no way to actually get in melee, or there are no enemies around.

    And if I cared about stam dps, not just recovery, I'd go Orc or Dunmer.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

    I'm guessing you just don't meet a lot of people. I'd say your insulting and condescending attitude factors into that. Or to flip it around, I guess you could just be a grumpy min/maxer who was never very good at math to understand why Redguard have better sustain.

    Also, maybe try reading the point of the thread. Fixing the stealth issue would in no way change the playstyle of Bosmer in combat. While most Bosmer players would like the garbage dodge roll skill fixed, this thread's main goal is the return of stealth.
  • Ratzkifal
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

    ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

    It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

    @colossalvoids Okay, but how has the detection improved your gameplay? Have you ever noticed that there was an increase to it? Nobody is denying that the overall combat balance is now in a better state than before and that Bosmer got an overall buff in terms of endgame viability. However that is not the point of the thread and not the issue we are complaining about. Even Ibeprofun isn't talking about the stamina regen when he/she said that. The only thing that is getting on all of our nerves is the removal of stealth that is not lore friendly and unjustified by ZOS' own reasoning as well as limiting choice and player freedom. There is also not a lot of actual "hate" to be found here, at least compared to some other threads about combat related issues, just a lot of salt and high blood pressure.
    And calling us a "little group" is a bit of a stretch if we have polls like this one supporting our claims that there is indeed an issue to be discussed. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
    438 people (currently) asked which new racial changes are disliked the most and 136 people voted Bosmer. Interestingly, the largest dislike ratings are the ones that got changes that are going against established lore/theme of a race. I don't think that putting Imperials and Nords seperate would have changed the results either. Now ask yourself if these 136 forum goers are really just "RPers that were bad at stealth and don't do endgame content anyway" and if they are, why their opinions are worth less than yours.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • MartiniDaniels
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Except any changes to Bosmer being competitive come from its stamina recovery passive and max stamina passive. Hunter's Eye is contributing 0% towards any competitive advantage. Any I'd wager everyone complaining in this thread is perfectly happy to with those passives (with the possible bewilderment of losing disease resistance but keeping poison).

    As to being top sustain, if I want the best stamina sustain I'd choose redguard. So long as I can land a melee attack every 5 seconds (which isn't that hard to do in most fights), I'd have 380 extra stam recovery compared to the Bosmer 258. Plus my weapon abilities cost 8% less, saving even more stamina. Only times Bosmer have better recovery are if they're going Bow/Bow, have no way to actually get in melee, or there are no enemies around.

    And if I cared about stam dps, not just recovery, I'd go Orc or Dunmer.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

    This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
    Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.
  • Night_Wolf2112
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    Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.

    Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?
  • Ratzkifal
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    Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.

    Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?

    I think you are right. I would blame it on 36 pages, but ... it's clear in the title and clear in the first post... Maybe people are thinking we want the 10% damage back? But then again the last guy was talking about RPers being "bad at stealth" which doesn't sound like he was talking about dps there. Hard to explain it any other way than through poor reading comprehension.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • wedgebert
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    This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
    Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

    That's fair, I'm not taking bonuses to stamina recovery into account. That swings things a little bit in Bosmer's favor, but not by much.

    Let's use a common nightblade example of DW/Bow. On the bow bar, you're likely going to be using Endless Hail and Poison Injection, both with durations of 10 seconds. We'll assume that your up time is 100%, sometimes you reapply too early, and others too late, but it works out to 10 seconds. They have a cost of 4051 and 2430 stamina respectively. Modified to 3443 and 2066 by Ranger. That works out to 6481 * 0.85 = 5,509 stamina every 10 seconds. Depending on how the Redguard cost reduction is applied (additive with Ranger, or multiplicative), the new stamina costs are either

    6481 * 0.85 * 0.92 = 5068 stamina (a savings of 441)
    or
    6481 * 0.77 = 4990 stamina (a savings of 519).

    So, best cause with just these two skills is saving the equivalent of 88 - 104 stamina recovery. Add that to their base passive that restores 950 every 5 seconds (equal to 380 recovery) and you have 468-484. Take your 90% uptime and you get 421-436. That's practically equal to Bosmer.

    If you have any kind of weapon skill spammable the savings from Martial Training will blow Bosmer out of the water. You basically get an extra 160 recovery for every 1000 stamina an ability costs. (Assuming one attack per second, 1000 * 0.08 = 80 stamina saved. Since recovery is per two seconds, 80 * 2 = 160).

    But none of that matters, even if Bosmer had demonstrably better sustain or even if they had the worst sustain in the game, this thread is about losing stealth. That's why a lot of us are upset, it's not about DPS, it's about playstyle and lore.

  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    ibeprofun wrote: »
    Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

    ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

    It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

    Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

    Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
    In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

    Yes, and you get all of that AND three extra skill points. Because the detection is completely useless in PVE and so close to completely useless as to not matter a whit in PVP. The roll dodge maneuver bonus is nice if you roll dodge a lot anyways, but not a reliable or affordable bonus to try to keep up on its own merits.

    And, while they aren't as weak as they were before, Bosmer are still not a top stamina race. Just not as far at the bottom.
    I am not willing to trade 100% of my racial identity for a marginal improvement.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
This discussion has been closed.