Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.
I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.
I'm fairly sure that this is their logic, as much as it sucks. But, alls we can do is disagree. I've said before that I don't think they'll change anything at this point and I stand by this. I'm disappointed like everyone else, but there's only so much we as players can do.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.
How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.
Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
To be fair, @ZOS_GinaBruno did say in another thread, before the stream, that they were not going to discuss the racial passives. I was surprised that she still asked him about the process even if it was indirectly.
Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.
How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.
Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.
I mean, soon we'll be having dragons in the Age of Heroes that weren't there before.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Not to derail... but adding dragons is another mistake! Are we to believe that a giant creature(s) with the ability to fly will only stay in Elswyr? Dragons should be; roaming, hoarding, or sleeping.... unless he's training the Grey Beards.
Major Points/TLDR for entire thread:
- We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
- Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.- Doesn't fit lore
Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
Race description direct from Elder Scrolls game manuals throughout the years:I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.
(Hopefully got the order correct.)
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion
(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)
Full manuals can be found here;
https://manuals.bethsoft.com
To submit feedback to your Class Reps:Cundu_Ertur wrote: »
The official thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1
Other threads of feedback:https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458816/once-again-im-underwhelmed-bosmers-hunter-eye/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459778/wood-elf-racial-changes-zos-please-stop-ignoring-your-community/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458645/as-a-wood-elf-what-utility-racial-passive-is-the-best/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460182/save-the-bosmer/p1
Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.
On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.
Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for years.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.
I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.
I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.
More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.
There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying..."stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.
Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.
Something a guildmate pointed out to me (who isn’t a Bosmer and isn’t interested in ever being one) is that we have to spend Stamina doing an ACTION in order to get our PASSIVE.
I said that it irked me yes, but so many rolypoly players love it, I’d get no support if I called for change. If it was me, I’d have the extra penetration on all the time, no roll dodge required. But I’ve hesitated to bring it up and muddy the waters.
wishlist14 wrote: »I'm done!!
I've wanted to play one character of each race for a while and finally got close, I was just missing a nord but I don't tank. Today, I did a bit of research on what would be the best build for my lil wood elf and apparantly found out she would only be good to rp Lolita. It disturbed me so much I decided to race and name change her to a redguard.
So all these changes to see Redguards and orcs best race for stamina builds
Altmer best race for Magicka builds?
Thank you for dumbing it down to 3 race choices
Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.
ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.
It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.
colossalvoids wrote: »Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.
ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.
It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.
Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.
Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.
colossalvoids wrote: »Looking at this comment section I wonder who still thinks that endgamers are more toxic than regular crowd.
Gratz and keep on conquering!
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.
To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.
I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.
I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.
More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.
There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying..."stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.
Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.
Not the correct story
colossalvoids wrote: »Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.
colossalvoids wrote: »Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.
colossalvoids wrote: »Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.
ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.
It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.
Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.
Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.
colossalvoids wrote: »Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.
Except any changes to Bosmer being competitive come from its stamina recovery passive and max stamina passive. Hunter's Eye is contributing 0% towards any competitive advantage. Any I'd wager everyone complaining in this thread is perfectly happy to with those passives (with the possible bewilderment of losing disease resistance but keeping poison).
As to being top sustain, if I want the best stamina sustain I'd choose redguard. So long as I can land a melee attack every 5 seconds (which isn't that hard to do in most fights), I'd have 380 extra stam recovery compared to the Bosmer 258. Plus my weapon abilities cost 8% less, saving even more stamina. Only times Bosmer have better recovery are if they're going Bow/Bow, have no way to actually get in melee, or there are no enemies around.
And if I cared about stam dps, not just recovery, I'd go Orc or Dunmer.colossalvoids wrote: »Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.
Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.
Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?
MartiniDaniels wrote: »This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.
colossalvoids wrote: »Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.
ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.
It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.
Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.
Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.