Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Jaraal

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Just wait... this is the second racial passive redo... if we are patient, in 2-3 years there will be another and maybe we will get our stealth back!

That does nothing for the people (in this thread alone, not counting the ones elsewhere) who have unsubbed, uninstalled, and/or asked their platform provider for a refund. Or the ones who will do so tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc. ZOS has chosen to throw away who knows how much revenue, because somebody decided lore wasn't important. But by golly, they're going to stick to their guns and figure out some way to stuff that baby down the drain with the bath water!

They are banking on time healing all wounds, players moving on, this thread eventually dropping off the page, and so forth. Well, sorry, but every time I log in to the game I see my Bosmer main, who used to be my best thief and who will never cash in his free plastic surgery ticket to become someone he's not. He was The Hero of Kvatch, The Gray Fox, The Dragonborn, The Listener, The Savior of Nirn, and The Hero of Tamriel. Why would he become someone else? He is Bosmer at heart, and I will not betray my Queen by trying to become some false hero for personal gain.

Tasear

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/463162/eso-live-march-15-10pm-gmt-is-the-loremaster-leamon-tuttle-taking-questions#latest

Don't forget eso live Friday with lore master. Maybe we can get answers...

A_Silverius

Seraphayel wrote: »

Get used to your new Bosmer, they were changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

I'll do you one better: Get used to our constant feedback.

Cundu_Ertur

"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in the forums, we shall fight in the zone chats and discords, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in reddit, we shall defend our stealth passive, whatever the cost may be. "

-Winston Churchill.

(with some help)

Seraphayel

A_Silverius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Get used to your new Bosmer, they were changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

I'll do you one better: Get used to our constant feedback.

It's not feedback anymore, that's the point. It was feedback one month ago. Now it's just complaining for the sake of complaining. If ZOS would be willing to revert the change they would have done it during the PTS or even before U21 hit consoles. They didn't. They didn't even react to the complains because they seem content with their choice.

Honestly, it's not about if you like the change(s) or not. It's what you have to deal with now. I know this post will be followed by several other angry posts why I am wrong and with some more fervent complaining that gets a ton of agrees and awesomes and whatever but it doesn't change the reality we have now. In your heads it might not be your reality and it might not be acceptable but it is for all the others.

A_Silverius

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Greetings Forum Overlord ZOS_GregoryV,

I appreciate the enforcement of forum rules, but I believe the comments from forum user Seraphayel: "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" are in line with the nature of provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking according to forum rules. Perhaps he/she does not understand that other players are allowed to give their feedback to ZOS but there were no constructive arguments in those statements, it was however akin to telling us that our feedback does not matter and we should just shut up and walk away. You having to snip several comments in this thread is already proof of that as they were all in reply to the comments from the above mentioned user Seraphayel.

Regards,
Sad stealthless Bosmer with bounty

Seraphayel

A_Silverius wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Greetings Forum Overlord ZOS_GregoryV,

I appreciate the enforcement of forum rules, but I believe the comments from forum user Seraphayel: "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" are in line with the nature of provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking according to forum rules. Perhaps he/she does not understand that other players are allowed to give their feedback to ZOS but there were no constructive arguments in those statements, it was however akin to telling us that our feedback does not matter and we should just shut up and walk away. You having to snip several comments in this thread is already proof of that as they were all in reply to the comments from the above mentioned user Seraphayel.

Regards,
Sad stealthless Bosmer with bounty

I'm voicing a contrary opinion and stating facts. You're absolutely allowed to give your feedback, so am I. That's not baiting and that's not provoking at all. It's just in game reality as it stands by right now. For your surprise, none of my comments were edited in the first place. Only the reactions. There might be a reason why this is the case. Just because your comments get a lot of agrees or awesomes in this thread it mustn't be the only truth.

A_Silverius

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm voicing a contrary opinion and stating facts. You're absolutely allowed to give your feedback, so am I. That's not baiting and that's not provoking at all. It's just in game reality as it stands by right now. For your surprise, none of my comments were edited in the first place. Only the reactions. There might be a reason why this is the case. Just because your comments get a lot of agrees or awesomes in this thread it mustn't be the only truth.

Your opinion being that we should stop this thread and move on? Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it. You say we're allowed to, great you understand that. So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Seraphayel

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Did it ever come to your mind that there are even Bosmer players that like the U21 changes and won't go back to U20 racials? What's with those players?

Eiron77

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

max_only

Seraphayel wrote: »

Did it ever come to your mind that there are even Bosmer players that like the U21 changes and won't go back to U20 racials? What's with those players?

[/quote]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of what is being discussed. We don’t want the u20 racials either.

Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.

On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Seraphayel

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

ibeprofun

I'm going to try and find something positive about this...








I'm glad I'm not the only one who's salty over this.

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

This would be ideal. Gets rid of the virtually useless Stealth Detection, restores Bosmer lore (and sneaking ability), yet is still a nerf from the previous perma 10% damage from stealth they didn't want us to have any more. And Khajiit still retains the advantage by having a flat 10% crit and heals buff without having to burn stamina like they are requiring Bosmer to do by spamming roll dodge.

A_Silverius

Seraphayel wrote: »

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" certainly is an attempt to silence our opinions, you don't want to be rude but I'm letting you know that you are actually being rude when you say those things.

You think its an entitled statement when it is actually a hopeful statement, hoping that ZOS will see reason and make a small change that will benefit THEM is not unreasonable.

You're just another forum user, you do not speak for ZOS. Saying they won't listen to feedback at all is an insult to their service and hard work.

Also, there is nothing* wrong with being entitled to give your feedback "until ZOS does something about it" because that is just the nature of "giving feedback" - a bunch of people criticising something and letting you know how it can improve so it can benefit both customer and developer.



The biggest problem here in this thread (or any) are non-constructive arguments and bait comments telling you not to give your opinions so that ZOS can improve their game to be a better product and therefore attracting more customers and increasing sales and evolving into the best mmo ever. Edit1: And also, editing out entire paragraphs from your original comments. That's a shady move my friend, that's where our stealth went I guess. Edit2: but where our stealth detection came in handy

Alucardmike

Now we got this "patch" on consoles.
Now every stupid moron can detect me.

It feels like my Bosmer is singing this, while sneaking.

https://youtu.be/UCxgbOBVSfM

macsmooth

Ok just got this patch on console and my nightblade wood elf who has every single passive for stealth and wearing nme and nt and I am failing heist now, is this new detect passive a reverse passive that allows for NPCs to detect me first getting detected from a metres away

I was hoping it wouldn’t be that bad knowing I have all the passives that make you invisible and the gear but this

anadandy

Console just got this patch and those players didn't have access to PTS - so their experience with the changes is fresh. They deserve to be heard just as much as anyone.

And better to keep feedback in one place rather than eleventy hundred threads *coughsiegechangescough*

BlueViolet

I did heists and sacraments the other day despite my not wanting to play my main anymore because of this, just to see how it went, and my Bosmer assassin has never in her pixelated life been spotted as easily as she was while doing them. It was so disappointing and disheartening.

I'm not going to just "move on" or "get used to my new Bosmer" , I'm going to keep complaining until something is done about it. And if nothing is done about it, I'll keep complaining until I get tired of it. And for those that complain about complainers, you may feel free to not open the thread, and you may also feel free to "move on" with your forum perusal past this thread.

Cundu_Ertur

"Rage, rage against the nerfing of the stealth."

- Dylan Thomas (unpublished, possibly apocryphal, early draft)

max_only

Seraphayel wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

Well thanks for bumping it as long as you did. I appreciate it.

Also, what you say makes sense. Radical acceptance of reality is the first step in coping with change. That is actual a psychological phenomenon. AND, not but (the word but is dismissive), and invalidation of other people is understandably perceived negatively. You may not have meant to be rude, and still it was received that way, which is valid.

It is my belief that only those who actually like Zos and this game are the ones who participate. If I hated Zos and this game and had zero faith in them then I wouldn’t be continuing this thread. I would just quit. I know that Zos can change, that nothing is written in rubedite and it’s my continued faith in Zos that gives me the energy to persist. I’m passionate about this game or else I wouldn’t make the time to study, test, research, respond etc.

Koronach

max_only wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

Well thanks for bumping it as long as you did. I appreciate it.

Also, what you say makes sense. Radical acceptance of reality is the first step in coping with change. That is actual a psychological phenomenon. AND, not but (the word but is dismissive), and invalidation of other people is understandably perceived negatively. You may not have meant to be rude, and still it was received that way, which is valid.

It is my belief that only those who actually like Zos and this game are the ones who participate. If I hated Zos and this game and had zero faith in them then I wouldn’t be continuing this thread. I would just quit. I know that Zos can change, that nothing is written in rubedite and it’s my continued faith in Zos that gives me the energy to persist. I’m passionate about this game or else I wouldn’t make the time to study, test, research, respond etc.

Agreed, we love the TES series and the lore. A game with this much established lore, you just shouldn't mess with it and leave the lore alone. Voicing a dislike about changing something that has been established for a long time, just shows how passionate people are about this game and series.

Night_Wolf2112

Jaraal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Just wait... this is the second racial passive redo... if we are patient, in 2-3 years there will be another and maybe we will get our stealth back!

That does nothing for the people (in this thread alone, not counting the ones elsewhere) who have unsubbed, uninstalled, and/or asked their platform provider for a refund. Or the ones who will do so tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, etc. ZOS has chosen to throw away who knows how much revenue, because somebody decided lore wasn't important. But by golly, they're going to stick to their guns and figure out some way to stuff that baby down the drain with the bath water!

They are banking on time healing all wounds, players moving on, this thread eventually dropping off the page, and so forth. Well, sorry, but every time I log in to the game I see my Bosmer main, who used to be my best thief and who will never cash in his free plastic surgery ticket to become someone he's not. He was The Hero of Kvatch, The Gray Fox, The Dragonborn, The Listener, The Savior of Nirn, and The Hero of Tamriel. Why would he become someone else? He is Bosmer at heart, and I will not betray my Queen by trying to become some false hero for personal gain.

Sorry, this was me being somewhat sarcastic, that doesn't come across online! I have been in this thread voicing my disapproval of stealth removal. I was just pointing out how slow ZoS will be in actually correcting this colossal phk'up that was poorly thought out and implemented.

KMarble

macsmooth wrote: »

Ok just got this patch on console and my nightblade wood elf who has every single passive for stealth and wearing nme and nt and I am failing heist now, is this new detect passive a reverse passive that allows for NPCs to detect me first getting detected from a metres away

I was hoping it wouldn’t be that bad knowing I have all the passives that make you invisible and the gear but this

I had none of the stealth sets and only legerdemain and wood elf skills maxed up (still working on thief and assassin skills). Because I went through the zone that drops NM before we learnt about the changes I deconned all the pieces I got from it. My only saving grace is that I began getting pieces of NT after the patch notes were out, so I kept them.

Even though there was still a lot of room for improvement on my main, I felt the changes. I hadn't done a sacrament or heist before it, but I don't believe those are the best places to test the changes. I felt it on my day to day activity in the game. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for those of you who spent years not only evolving your characters, but learning how to be good at it.

Stealing and murdering are counter-intuitive to the rest of the game play - in most circumstances I see players charging and being told that speed is of paramount importance. But when the play involves stealth we need to contain the urge to hit that button fast, we need to approach with caution and wait until the perfect moment arrives.

Truthsnark

Sorry all you console players, we tried The voices of the Bosmer will be heard! We want our stealth back! We are tiny, morally ambiguous in our eating habits, and STUBBORN.

I support simply swapping the stealth detection back to stealth radius reduction and leaving everything else as is. Even though privately I think putting an offensive bonus on a defensive skill is completely wackadoodle.

KMarble

Truthsnark wrote: »

Sorry all you console players, we tried The voices of the Bosmer will be heard! We want our stealth back! We are tiny, morally ambiguous in our eating habits, and STUBBORN.

I support simply swapping the stealth detection back to stealth radius reduction and leaving everything else as is. Even though privately I think putting an offensive bonus on a defensive skill is completely wackadoodle.

Me too. We have a saying in my country for when people begin to get a little obnoxious about someone's short height - the best perfumes come in small bottles, and so do the worse poisons. Works well for Bosmers IMO.

Ashryn

The 'Brassy Assassin' personality has been perfect for my Wood Elf... I now have the 'pissed off' look that I need!

Aela_Dragonrider

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

"We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in the forums, we shall fight in the zone chats and discords, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in reddit, we shall defend our stealth passive, whatever the cost may be. "

-Winston Churchill.

(with some help)

Can we make that our slogan?

Anyway, just came around to pitch in my two septims with my own experiences since the change with my secondary main, a little Bosmer named Lara. Lara does a lot of thieving every session, primarily strongboxes and containers. While this is still highly lucrative and successful, even fun, it is not what it once was.

Hardly a day goes by when she doesn't get caught at least once (today it was 4-5 times). And it is almost always by an npc that is just far enough away that if she had had that 3m reduction to detection radius, she would have gotten clean away. True she has passives that increase the speed at which the bounties go away, but even a small bounty can massively complicate a thieving run as you need to be even more aware of guards and such.

She has to sit around and analyze npc schedules a lot more, waiting for the just the right time to make her move. And if she is just a little off...If one npc turns at the wrong moment...BOUNTY!

Homes are now much harder to loot as well; and some are, in my opinion, nearly impossible due to how the npcs inside move around.

Delves and quests aren't too much harder to sneak through, but are more tense as I'm always having to remain highly attentive to where enemies are and debating if Lara can just sneak by X or if she needs Cloak to do so, etc...

I could go on but in summary, Bosmer Stealth may not be dead but it is harder and a little less fun. Overland stuff didn't change much but thieving has. I haven't even tried Heists or Sacraments and frankly have little urge to do so. Its not enough to make me quit or even swear of ESO+, but it is frustrating and i can totally understand why some people are doing just that.

wedgebert

Aela_Dragonrider wrote: »

I could go on but in summary, Bosmer Stealth may not be dead but it is harder and a little less fun. Overland stuff didn't change much but thieving has. I haven't even tried Heists or Sacraments and frankly have little urge to do so. Its not enough to make me quit or even swear of ESO+, but it is frustrating and i can totally understand why some people are doing just that.

No, Bosmer stealth is dead. There is only Khajiit stealth (super stealthy like Bosmer used to be), Imperial stealth (lowered stealth cost), and everyone else. You can still stealth, but there's no more Bosmer flavor to it.

Heists actually aren't that much worse, but only because the lantern guys are immune to stealth anyways. They suck more now (and they sucked before since they valued speed not stealth), but ironically they're not much changed.

Cundu_Ertur

Truthsnark wrote: »

Sorry all you console players, we tried The voices of the Bosmer will be heard! We want our stealth back! We are tiny, morally ambiguous in our eating habits, and STUBBORN.

I support simply swapping the stealth detection back to stealth radius reduction and leaving everything else as is. Even though privately I think putting an offensive bonus on a defensive skill is completely wackadoodle.

You know what? If they had done this back when we first complained before the PTS even started, I'd buy that. But now that the fullness of how horribly the devs have completely screwed the Bosmer over has had a chance to sink in, no.

1. Swap disease/poison resistance between Argonians and Bosmer.
2. Return stealth to what it had been.
3. Bosmer need a bonus to bow damage greater than what Orcs and Dunmer have (or equal damage with a slight boost to range).