Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

MartiniDaniels

Seraphayel wrote: »

ZOS is not going to give you stealth back. They seem content with their plans and removing the Bosmer stealth passive was one of them.

I know you are complaining for two months now and you're mostly right but it's time to move on and get over it. I know I will get bombarded with comments how dare I saying this but this is just the truth and reality.

Get used to your new Bosmer, they were changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

[snip] otherwise we will continue to complain and search for new ways to get back what is ours, we will be a constant reminder of how plain and disappointing are U21 changes, not only for bosmer but for majority of races. If somebody is happy that he got extra 1k of resource from this instead of diversity and race uniqueness which was initially advertised.. well, it's ok, but that doesn't mean that everybody should just calmly accept it.

[Edit for baiting.]

Jeremiah12LGeek

Question:

Why the change at all?

I'm not sticking around for an answer. I have the experience to know that the appropriate response is to uninstall and move on. I've already uninstalled, and by tomorrow morning the game will have been returned, never to be played again. Congratulations Bethesda/Zenimax, I accepted your decision.

But why the decision? Was effective stealth so offensive to the developers that they had to drive players away to get rid of it?Were elves over-represented in telemetric data, so extreme measures were taken to drive elf fans away?

Rhetorical, obviously, except maybe for those sticking around to find out.

Eiron77

Seraphayel wrote: »

ZOS is not going to give you stealth back. They seem content with their plans and removing the Bosmer stealth passive was one of them.

I know you are complaining for two months now and you're mostly right but it's time to move on and get over it. I know I will get bombarded with comments how dare I saying this but this is just the truth and reality.

Get used to your new Bosmer, they were changed in a game that's under constant development and where change is inevitable, good and bad.

[snip] You're welcome to move on from this thread. You said nothing we weren't already aware of.

And besides, console player's just got hit with the change, gotta give them their time to complain and voice their discontent to wiping Bosmers from the game.

[snip]

[Edit for bait.]

Shardaxx

Well I got on briefly tonight to check out the changes. The loss of the sneaking radius was noticeable in the dark brotherhood assassination daily, lost my sneak damage. Gained a little bit of stam regen, and a speed buff from rolling. Doesn't feel right to me. I'm gonna try pvp but think I'll use a token to change to a khajiit for a bit, see how that plays.

BlueRaven

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote: »

Question:

Why the change at all?

I'm not sticking around for an answer. I have the experience to know that the appropriate response is to uninstall and move on. I've already uninstalled, and by tomorrow morning the game will have been returned, never to be played again. Congratulations Bethesda/Zenimax, I accepted your decision.

But why the decision? Was effective stealth so offensive to the developers that they had to drive players away to get rid of it?Were elves over-represented in telemetric data, so extreme measures were taken to drive elf fans away?

Rhetorical, obviously, except maybe for those sticking around to find out.

Well, my feeling is that it went something like this.

We got a new guy who is in charge of the races and he wanted to mold the game. To put his mark on it.
He then came up with the idea that one of the first things he will do is redo all of the racials, AND make all the races feel unique.
He had some ideas for a few races. But when it got to bosmers they basically ran out of ideas. They remembered an armor set that was not used very much and shoe horned it into the bosmers. "They live in trees but they tumble alot! Done."
And then the with the stealth racial they said; "Well Kahjits have stealth and we can't let them BOTH have that because "uniqueness", so give Bosmers stealth detect!" And promptly moved on.
They really did not give much thought into the passive because they did not WANT to put much though into the passive.

Even when it was pointed out to them in that the community probably would not like the change they said the infamous quote.

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Basically either a "We'll fix it later" hand wave response, or its a "craft some armor" response.

Nothing about the Bosmer changes feels well though out. It all feels a bit slapdash, because (I feel) it was a bit slapdash.

Even the whole argonian/bosmer resistance mix up. All of it feels like the work of people who just wanted it off their table as fast as they could.

The TLDR is; Zos wanted unique races. And since Kahjit has a stealth bonus bosmers had theirs taken away.

Jeremiah12LGeek

BlueRaven wrote: »

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote: »

Question:

Why the change at all?

I'm not sticking around for an answer. I have the experience to know that the appropriate response is to uninstall and move on. I've already uninstalled, and by tomorrow morning the game will have been returned, never to be played again. Congratulations Bethesda/Zenimax, I accepted your decision.

But why the decision? Was effective stealth so offensive to the developers that they had to drive players away to get rid of it?Were elves over-represented in telemetric data, so extreme measures were taken to drive elf fans away?

Rhetorical, obviously, except maybe for those sticking around to find out.

Well, my feeling is that it went something like this.

We got a new guy who is in charge of the races and he wanted to mold the game. To put his mark on it.
He then came up with the idea that one of the first things he will do is redo all of the racials, AND make all the races feel unique.
He had some ideas for a few races. But when it got to bosmers they basically ran out of ideas. They remembered an armor set that was not used very much and shoe horned it into the bosmers. "They live in trees but they tumble alot! Done."
And then the with the stealth racial they said; "Well Kahjits have stealth and we can't let them BOTH have that because "uniqueness", so give Bosmers stealth detect!" And promptly moved on.
They really did not give much thought into the passive because they did not WANT to put much though into the passive.

Even when it was pointed out to them in that the community probably would not like the change they said the infamous quote.

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

Basically either a "We'll fix it later" hand wave response, or its a "craft some armor" response.

Nothing about the Bosmer changes feels well though out. It all feels a bit slapdash, because (I feel) it was a bit slapdash.

Even the whole argonian/bosmer resistance mix up. All of it feels like the work of people who just wanted it off their table as fast as they could.

The TLDR is; Zos wanted unique races. And since Kahjit has a stealth bonus bosmers had theirs taken away.

Whether your assessment is accurate or not, it certainly does a great job of pointing out the flaws with the potential reasoning.

But at the end of the day, the question to Bethesda/Zenimax pretty much remains the same:

Why are you punishing Wood Elf fans for playing Wood Elves? What purpose does punishing your playerbase serve?

Jaraal

wedgebert wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

So essentially, Bosmer "speed" passive should read: Burn x amount of stamina to dodge roll and go 10% faster, while every other race can burn the same amount of stamina and go 30% faster by sprinting.

Wow, this is getting worse by the day!

Technically, I think the 10% bonus would affect sprinting as well, so we'd still go faster. It's just we'd get tired more quickly because we burned way more stamina rolling than we'd have spent sprinting for 6 seconds.

Yes, but if it takes you 1 or 2 seconds to roll dodge, at 10% you are still behind someone who mashed the sprint button from the get-go and is moving away at 30%. Will your 40% allow you to catch up within the six seconds? I'm not that great with mafths, so I'll just guess it's probably a wash. However, if you have more CP into Tumbling than Sprinting, you will burn more stamina than the guy who has more in Sprinting over the course of the six seconds. So there isn't any real advantage, other than the fact that you might roll out of a root, if there's one present. But the straight sprinter could be out of range while you are still within reach... etc etc.

Point being.... the roll dodge speed buff is hardly an advantage, the stealth detection is totally worthless for most people, and the loss of stealth, when it is the main reason many (if not most) people choose Bosmer in the first place: still makes it a lose/lose situation.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

ibeprofun

I just signed up on the forums just so I could vent about this.

I've been a bosmer since I started 2 years ago, I enjoyed it. Really really disappointed about losing this passive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(I could keep going)

I do not want to play as a catman. Not interested. Do not want a tail.

This change is UNNECESSARY. WTF WHY??!?!!??!

Jeremiah12LGeek

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

How does this help?

Honest question. I can't see a single reason for this post. It's not appealing for calm, it's asking people not to complain, in context. I don't understand the goal at all. Unless you really just want people to go away.

BlueRaven

ibeprofun wrote: »

I just signed up on the forums just so I could vent about this.

I've been a bosmer since I started 2 years ago, I enjoyed it. Really really disappointed about losing this passive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!(I could keep going)

I do not want to play as a catman. Not interested. Do not want a tail.

This change is UNNECESSARY. WTF WHY??!?!!??!

Well we have been asking this question for a while now, and all we get is crickets. So I don't know what to tell you, it's very discouraging.

anadandy

Has there been any change with the inconsistency and wonkiness of stealth detection with the latest patch? Because if we're going to be stuck with a PVP only passive, it'd be nice if it actually worked in PVP.

wedgebert

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote: »

How does this help?

Honest question. I can't see a single reason for this post. It's not appealing for calm, it's asking people not to complain, in context. I don't understand the goal at all. Unless you really just want people to go away.

He's just a mod, so he can't speak to ZOS's thoughts. However there have been some posts removed due to tone. Honestly I'm not surprised since many of us feel strongly about these changes. So this post was just a warning to keep it civil.

Jaraal

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

How does this help?

Honest question. I can't see a single reason for this post. It's not appealing for calm, it's asking people not to complain, in context. I don't understand the goal at all. Unless you really just want people to go away.

I haven't really seen any baiting, flaming, or bashing in this thread at all.... it seems remarkably civil, at least when compared to some of the PvP debate threads, lol.

I guess what they're asking is for us to not question the wisdom of the racial rebalancers? Because the posters have been quite respectful of each other?

Ratzkifal

It's back?

I was very shocked when I saw the thread was closed. Crisis averted I guess. Phew!

wedgebert

I've seen a few that have gotten a little heated, but nothing I would have really thought was worth deleting.

I'm pretty sure no one is questioning the wisdom of the racial rebalances. You cannot question that which does not exist.

Sylvermynx

Well.... yeah. Apparently at the moment, as long as no one really goes ballistic again? I dunno. Either they can shut everyone down, or they can allow people who are annoyed and upset and BALLISTIC about the situation to post - or they can censor it.

Censorship is a bad decision period. Cleaning up stuff that falls into the "soap meet mouth" thing - fine. Otherwise.... bad decision.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote: »

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

We understand that some are happy with the racial passives and how others are not. Debating the changes is completely acceptable. However, baiting and flaming other members of the community, as well as bashing, are all violations of the rules that we have in place. Moving forward, we ask that all posts be kept civil and constructive, as well as with in the rules. If there may be any question in regards to the rules, please do feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

How does this help?

Honest question. I can't see a single reason for this post. It's not appealing for calm, it's asking people not to complain, in context. I don't understand the goal at all. Unless you really just want people to go away.

I haven't really seen any baiting, flaming, or bashing in this thread at all.... it seems remarkably civil, at least when compared to some of the PvP debate threads, lol.

I guess what they're asking is for us to not question the wisdom of the racial rebalancers? Because the posters have been quite respectful of each other?

Well some of it wasn't very pretty, especially the way some people reacted towards opposing opinions. I gotta admit, reading those sentences makes my blood boil really fast, but you gotta keep calm and polite.
Even got kicked out of a guild because I was feeding into the trolls who were telling me that it's a buff and I shouldn't complain and that the removal of stealth passives does not stop me from rollplaying

Just look at the older comments that have been edited now.

Sylvermynx

Really though.... editing stuff from the beginning of the thread really doesn't - make much sense. People click a thread title, realize there are many more posts, and click to the end. So I bet not many are going to read the "censored" stuff in full.

Still, just a crap move ZOS. How about you just admit you blew it, restore the original Bosmer stealth passive, and we all move on?

Remember - I'm not invested in the Bosmer stealth passive. But it's apparent to me that there are many who are....

You really don't want to trash your remaining player base. BAD BAD idea.

wedgebert

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Really though.... editing stuff from the beginning of the thread really doesn't - make much sense. People click a thread title, realize there are many more posts, and click to the end. So I bet not many are going to read the "censored" stuff in full.

Still, just a crap move ZOS. How about you just admit you blew it, restore the original Bosmer stealth passive, and we all move on?

Remember - I'm not invested in the Bosmer stealth passive. But it's apparent to me that there are many who are....

You really don't want to trash your remaining player base. BAD BAD idea.

The only problem I can see with restoring the Bosmer stealth is that all the other races shafted with weird lore-breaking traits are going to want theirs fixed as well.

Argonians will want poison resistance back (so that their quests aren't lying to them)
Altmer will want Spell Recharge to recharge their spells, not their lungs.
Khajiit will want crit chance back instead of crit damage/healing
And so on.

Honestly, I don't see much of an issue argonians and bosmer trading poison and disease so they both still only have one instead of both (and it makes more sense than the current backwards traits).

Altmer is a little harder since they don't want to give Altmer magicka recovery since they're a max magicka race. I'm sure there's a better solution than a paltry amount of stamina that is both not enough to use and more than they usually need. Maybe they could get something like "You trade X stamina for X/3 magicka if you try to cast without enough magicka. This can only proc every 10 seconds".

I don't really know the complaints about the other races other than the fact that people who aren't meta-chasers tend to fall into one of three categories
1: Unhappy with the changes, quite possibly for lore reasons
2: Casual player who didn't really notice
3: Don't care

Sure some people like them, but that's either because they are now stronger and don't care about lore, or they can now play some weird build that wasn't viable before that only 6 other people on the server play (dodge-roll)

Sylvermynx

wedgebert wrote: »

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Really though.... editing stuff from the beginning of the thread really doesn't - make much sense. People click a thread title, realize there are many more posts, and click to the end. So I bet not many are going to read the "censored" stuff in full.

Still, just a crap move ZOS. How about you just admit you blew it, restore the original Bosmer stealth passive, and we all move on?

Remember - I'm not invested in the Bosmer stealth passive. But it's apparent to me that there are many who are....

You really don't want to trash your remaining player base. BAD BAD idea.

The only problem I can see with restoring the Bosmer stealth is that all the other races shafted with weird lore-breaking traits are going to want theirs fixed as well.

Argonians will want poison resistance back (so that their quests aren't lying to them)
Altmer will want Spell Recharge to recharge their spells, not their lungs.
Khajiit will want crit chance back instead of crit damage/healing
And so on.

Honestly, I don't see much of an issue argonians and bosmer trading poison and disease so they both still only have one instead of both (and it makes more sense than the current backwards traits).

Altmer is a little harder since they don't want to give Altmer magicka recovery since they're a max magicka race. I'm sure there's a better solution than a paltry amount of stamina that is both not enough to use and more than they usually need. Maybe they could get something like "You trade X stamina for X/3 magicka if you try to cast without enough magicka. This can only proc every 10 seconds".

I don't really know the complaints about the other races other than the fact that people who aren't meta-chasers tend to fall into one of three categories
1: Unhappy with the changes, quite possibly for lore reasons
2: Casual player who didn't really notice
3: Don't care

Sure some people like them, but that's either because they are now stronger and don't care about lore, or they can now play some weird build that wasn't viable before that only 6 other people on the server play (dodge-roll)

That's the beef. They need to admit they blew the lore, and put everything "lore-wise" back the way it belongs. Now, I'm not invested in any of this personally. I play what I play, I don't min max, my girls are who they are because they TOLD me who they are. So really, none of this background crap is important to me.

Except for the lore. ZOS is... circumventing and obviating the lore of the entire franchise. I've been playing TES since Arena released.

I VERY MUCH resent that the ESO devs are trashing the franchise's lore. I can't even express how much I hate this. Not without getting a permanent ban anyway!

wedgebert

Wow Arena? You're the first person I've seen say that. I feel like an old timer because I started with Morrowind. I ain't got nothing on you!

Sylvermynx

wedgebert wrote: »

Wow Arena? You're the first person I've seen say that. I feel like an old timer because I started with Morrowind. I ain't got nothing on you!

Yup. I hit the game shop in Vegas the MINUTE Arena was on sale. I have been in love with this franchise ever since. YEARS between releases, yes. But each one only drew me in more.

Oh lordy. The Daggerfall tutorial. MY GODDESS.... I could not manage to get out of it alive. I bet it took me a week to get the combat move down enough to not die. The rats.... then the skeletons.... then there was the imp.... I never played a game prior which was harder just for the TUTORIAL!

That sealed my fate. TES for LIFE!

And that IS the beef for me. The ESO devs are trashing the lore. I have no idea what they think they are doing. But I for one do NOT appreciate it.

Not to mention they can't even bother to talk about why they do what they do.

starkerealm

Well, I finally used one of my race change tokens. Changed by Bosmer into a Nord. So far, actually liking it. I've spent enough time sneaking around on non-Bosmer stealth builds to be used to the normal detect radius, and as a bonus, she's now cute AF, instead of looking like spray-painted jerky, so that's a perk too. At least until she becomes a vampire again.

BlueRaven

starkerealm wrote: »

Well, I finally used one of my race change tokens. Changed by Bosmer into a Nord. So far, actually liking it. I've spent enough time sneaking around on non-Bosmer stealth builds to be used to the normal detect radius, and as a bonus, she's now cute AF, instead of looking like spray-painted jerky, so that's a perk too. At least until she becomes a vampire again.

Is your podcast downloadable on iTunes?

Night_Wolf2112

Just wait... this is the second racial passive redo... if we are patient, in 2-3 years there will be another and maybe we will get our stealth back!

Ratzkifal

There are some lore breaking issues I can happily accept even though we should wag our fingers at ZOS, like the resistances of Bosmer and Argonians as they are actually both resistant to both and have both been resistant to just one in prior games or Orcs not having more max health than Imperials. That's all things you can ignore, although in the context of some ESO quests, the Argonian one is the most obvious.

What I feel is a more severe issue is the Altmer passive (because it was badly explained and Alteration cannot do that without breaking consistency). If it's Alteration, then Bretons and Dunmer would be able to get the same bonus to stamina by using Alteration magic. Alteration is not exclusive to Altmer. What would be exclusive to them and still support the madness ZOS pushed live would be to say that Altmer are so magical, not casting magic is more exhausting (on their physical bodies) than casting magic and thus restoring stamina on magicka casts. That may not be 100% the same as the spell recharge passive (as it cuts magicka restore on stamina cast on stamina builds) but it fits the same niche and makes more sense in lore.

The Bosmer, well, we've said it a lot already. Give them back the stealth and take away the detection if you must, because it is not engaging, not universal, does not open up new options, is not based in lore and a detriment in any PvP situation that isn't controlled by randomness.

Khajiit are honestly mostly fine because there are more magical catbreeds than the common Khajiit type you encounter and unlike with the existence of magical Nords, an entire breed is not an exception to the rule, but part of the rule.

Sylvermynx

Yeah, stealth detect in pve..... is just totally useless (as has been said MANY TIMES including by ZOS....) If you're going to throw a bone.... well, you know.... the bone needs to have some life to it still.

ibeprofun

/Throws a rock


Booooooooooo

Ratzkifal

I finally figured out why Bosmer got stealth removed!

"The Wood Elf known as Finedrin has been found guilty of the following crimes: Stealing rotten tomatoes and other refuse from stablemaster Semiral's midden-heap, Dumping said refuse on the head of the Altmer commander, Faruin during his visit to the clanmother, And finally, knocking over the cart of Atrius the merchant while attempting to avoid capture. For all of these crimes, this one sentences him to the stocks until such time as he shows proper repentance!"

Never again! Neverforget. Pray for Rawl'kha.