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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    Sylvermynx wrote: »
    Eh, I don't play sneak thief on my Bosmer. It's not a playstyle I personally enjoy.

    However - the basic trait of Bosmer IS stealth. And yet... ZOS chose to "special" pvp yet again. THAT is the problem. Everything ZOS does is to stroke pvp.

    You know, I'm really enjoying this game. And I'm spending a lot of RLD on it. But.... if this trend doesn't go away.... I will be going away. Which is sad because there's nothing else out there to play - yeah, I know y'all will post suggestions for stupid phone games. I don't DO that crap. I do TES. Too bad I don't do WoW any more, or RIFT....

    Guess I'll be going back to Skyrim. I'd almost rather go back to Oblivion at least to start.... but I can't deal with the potato faces.

    I would love to play oblivion again, I am hoping for a remaster for the PS4. (I can't stand the faces either.)
  • BlueRaven
    BlueRaven
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    anadandy wrote: »
    "Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

    Ha! I love that line.
  • Arato
    Arato
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    Eiron77 wrote: »
    "Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

    ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.
    Arato wrote: »
    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    KMarble wrote: »

    I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

    Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

    I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

    My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
    1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
    2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
    3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

    Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

    No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

    The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

    the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

    Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

    TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

    I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

    ... did you actually read my post, I did cover all of that. The trimming of Khajiit's traditional racial skills meant sneak became their major skill.
  • IwakuraLain42
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    If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

    They will not undo this ...
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    Arato wrote: »
    Eiron77 wrote: »
    "Stealth is not a universal mechanic" = Replace it with something even less universal

    ZOS: "many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about" Gives stealth detection.
    Arato wrote: »
    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    KMarble wrote: »

    I think the problem is that you're looking at it as if the passive is one thing, and that to change one aspect of it would be to change the whole. I see it as 3 different traits that could be modified separately.

    Can we just ask them to take our 10% reduced fall damage in exchange for giving back the 3m reduction? Seems more fit for Khajiits always landing on their feet anyways.

    I don't know if I really want to give up that increased ability to find other non bosmer/khajiit stealthers first.

    My suggestion, IF we need to be different from the Khajiit was:
    1) Put 2m hiding bonus in legerdemain in .5 increments in the Improved Hiding skill. Everyone would be able to get 2m hiding bonus that way. Also, provide some way to level legerdemain that didn't involve picking locks or pockets -- maybe tied to doing damage out of stealth or something.
    2) Reduce the Khajiit bonus to a max of 2m, but they'd otherwise remain the same. Scale would be .5/1/2 or something like that.
    3) Leave Hunter's Eye alone (even keeping the detested detection bonus), but give Bosmer a 1m hiding bonus in their 'free' passive.

    Bosmer would start the game being able to hide a bit better than anyone else, but if they don't level their skill in legerdemain they get left behind by everyone else. Khajiit would eventually be the best, but they'd have to work at it. In the end, all races would be able to get a 2m bonus, those Bosmer who work at it would have a 3m bonus, Those Khajiit who work at it would have a 4m bonus. Everyone wins, no-one loses.

    No, in the Lore, Bosmer always got a stronger stealth bonus than Khajiit. Khajiit had a stronger acrobatics bonus.... ESO gets them backwards.

    The skills most associated with Bosmer are marksmanship, sneak, alchemy, and light armor (remember in single player TES games clothing like robes isn't counted as armor at all, light armor is leather, medium (if it's in the game) is mail, and heavy is plate). They always get bonuses to those skills, with marksman/archery being the highest. They have also here and there gotten bonuses to acrobatics, pickpocket, lockpicking, and in Oblivion, alteration.

    the skills most associated with Khajiit are acrobatics, athletics, hand to hand, and sneak (but generally a smaller bonus than what Bosmer get except Skyrim where it becomes their main skill (as acrobatics and athletics and hand to hand were removed from Skyrim)

    Khanjiit having equal stealth bonus with Bosmer? Sure. Better? No. Bosmer should be the scouts and thieves where Khajiit are more associated with martial artists, and it'd be really nice if one day we had a martial arts/hand to hand tree (though you'd have to have some sort of fist weapon or claw weapon for things like enchants and stats). IMO Elsweyr should have introduced monks rather than necromancers.

    TBH in Skyrim Khajiit had the bigger hiding bonus, but that was more to do with how the racials were redesigned than anything: every race had one big and several small bonuses instead of a couple big and small ones. Also most of the Khajiit major skills were nuked for Skyrim, so their small hiding boost got promoted mostly because it simply hadn't disappeared. The Bosmer main skill was the obvious boost to archery, so stealth got demoted.

    I'm aware of all of this, and aside from the note about Skyrim I don't really disagree with what you say, but it seems obvious to me that someone on the current dev team loves them some cats and loathes Bosmer with all their heart.

    ... did you actually read my post, I did cover all of that. The trimming of Khajiit's traditional racial skills meant sneak became their major skill.

    Missed it until you pointed it out, my mistake.

    Anyways, my point is that, yes, I know all of that, I have posted repeatedly about all that. It's just that, given the seems-obvious-to-me hatred and loathing that some dev has for Bosmer, we aren't going to get the best sneak bonus. Otherwise, I completely agree with you, per the lore and previous games we should at worst have the same bonus if not more of one.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • IwakuraLain42
    IwakuraLain42
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

    They will not undo this ...

    @IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

    I really hope so, I've just come back from a long hiatus and what I see of the game now (I'm playing on PS4) compared to the game I left 8 months before and compared to other MMORPGs is not nice.
  • KMarble
    KMarble
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Update on the comprehensive list of arguments (WIP)
    • We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
    • Stealth detect is useless in PvE, many people don't play PvP at all so get no use from this trait, so that is what we would give up for a bonus to sneaking for Bosmer.
      Further more the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increase the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existance of their sneaking enemy.
    • Doesn't fit lore

    May I give a suggestion?

    I'd take out the "many people don't play PVP" part for two reasons:
    1. it's speculation (unless there are numbers given by the only entity that can verify that - ZOS , which I doubt will happen)
    2. it gives a "us versus them" vibe, which I think is counter-productive and dismissive*.

    * One of the arguments used against my plea on the thread I started was that playing a Bosmer thief is a thing I chose to do, but they don't play it that way, so though luck.
    I prefer not to have PVers thinking that the folks who play stealthy Bosmers don't care about what they like. I think it would be better to have some people who do play PVP stating how stealth actually helped them in how they played.
  • heaven13
    heaven13
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    anadandy wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    If you look hard at what ZOS did over the last few years with the game then it should be very clear which groups are their focus: PvP players and PvE endgame players (primary DPS) playing the game on a PC. Everything else simply doesn't matter and they don't care about us. It's only important that they get enough new players for each Chapter (that's the main why they are structured that you can easily play as a new player).

    They will not undo this ...

    @IwakuraLain42 Have faith! They will listen to us eventually. ZOS does not care about PvP or PvE or even streamers. What they care about is their perception and publicity and endgame and streamers play a big role in that. All we need is attention and momentum on this subject and ZOS will take it seriously.

    I'm curious if there will be any attention paid to the weirdness with stealth detection you discovered. Because it really sounds like a bug - and if its not a bug then it is an even bigger problem with the passive. I'd really like to hear a defense of that.

    I imagine this would be a "it's a feature!" bug. You can SEE the enemy so you can avoid their attacks. That's all it said - stealth detection. If you want to actually engage them while cloaked, well, that's what flare or magelight is for. So make sure to slot that skill too. :/
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  • Eiron77
    Eiron77
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    heaven13 wrote: »
    Eiron77 wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

    (Hopefully got the order correct.)

    Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

    32306341437_b550c1b8bd_z.jpg

    Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

    32306341037_3b487044d1_z.jpg

    Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

    47168547902_f579e32a32_z.jpg

    Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion

    32306341307_cd75e1be99_z.jpg

    (There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

    Full manuals can be found here;

    https://manuals.bethsoft.com

    Any chance you can add a screen shot of ESO's original description for Bosmers? (I forgot to get one before the patch went live).

    You know, to drive the point home even further.

    i4LCW5x.png

    Here is the full sized screenshot of the image above taken from this video that dates back to 2014.

    Thanks!
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