Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

max_only

Wood Elves have always been a stealth based race and the main reason to choose these tiny characters is their innate stealth. PVE enemies in this game do not hide, so changing these characters to detect hidden enemies removes an enjoyable and realistic game mechanic and provides no benefit.

I have given feedback regarding the proposed change to this passive here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453572/bosmer-racial-change-that-is-illogical-and-unnecessary/p1
And I have polled the forum with the conclusion that no one uses stealth detection in pve here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458818/do-you-use-stealth-detect-in-pve/p1

Firstly, Wood Elves have always had a head-start bonus to the stealth attribute for the past 5 Elder Scrolls titles. In 3 of those titles, they had a greater bonus to sneaking than any other race. For 5 years in TESO we have used this passive to great effect in all game modes. It is a valuable passive as evidenced by: the continuation (and even improvement) of stealth for Khajiits; two zone DLCs that benefit from this passive; trial and dungeon mechanics that take advantage of being in stealth; and the number of dismayed replies on your official forums.

In the developer notes it states that “many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!” The conclusion to replace it with 3 meter stealth detection is a contradiction because if enemies can’t be bothered to stealth, then we don’t need to detect stealth enemies. There isn’t any pve content available in the game that uses stealth detection. In pvp, 3 meters is actually a negligible amount of stealth detection because of how pvp is currently played. Stealth is used from a distance in order to stack bonuses from the Bow skill line. Stealth in melee range, at the pace of the current pvp climate, requires a skill (Vampire or Nightblade) or a potion. Being able to detect within 3 meters is not enough time to even block before a blow from stealth. “Gankers” will not disappear with the removal of this Wood Elf passive, they will just switch to Khajiit for the crits.

The identity of this race, from the first game, have been stealthy archers and thieves. It needs to remain an innate ability of the smallest race in the game to hide better than the largest. Moving this out of the racial passive and into another skill line is not a solution because a large character, such as a Nord, is realistically not as sneaky as the smallest characters. This change goes against the original vision, the established precedent, in-universe realism, and the lore within the game itself. The point of choosing the smallest character model in the game is that it’s better at hiding.

Regarding your dev note, “Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other.“ Players expect that the smallest characters are the sneakiest, and the effort to make this minor distinction is not worth the cost of removing the main appeal of choosing Wood Elf. Khajiit and Wood Elf are already distinct enough from each other, in physical design and fighting style.

Please, reconsider this change. Stealthiness is THE identifying attribute to this race. The proposed change to this passive is disruptive and counterintuitive. Wood Elf hiding ability has been an established precedent for all 5 TES games and the past 5 years in this game.

max_only

TLDR for entire thread:

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Comprehensive collection of arguments against the complete removal of stealth related Bosmer passives

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, due to the severe lack of detectable enemies and/or objects
  making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons, Delves and PvP by making it easier to sneak past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Removing stealthiness from Bosmer breaks with tradition as every game starting with Arena described Bosmer as great sneak thieves.
  Elder Scrolls 1 Arena
  
  Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall
  
  Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind
  
  Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion
  
  Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim
  
  Elder Scrolls Online
  
• Stealth has always been an integral part of Bosmer culture and lore.
  • The Rite of Theft is a war custom of the tribal Woodelfs in which a tribe raids another to steal the valuable possessions or people for ransom. The larger the stolen object, the more prestige it has. While deaths do occur, these raids are generally not deadly due to the stealthy nature of this war custom. "Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth" - Mistral Aurelian Teriscor
  • The Bosmer's most famous poem is called "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding". Although we have never seen this poem, it has been mentioned several times, even within the books of ESO. Sources for this are the "Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion", "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer" (ESO) as well as "A Dance in Fire, Book 1". All these sources are quoting it to be the most famous poem and two of them also mention the forest-coupling ability.
  • Bosmer are known to possess an ability called "forest-coupling" that allows them to camouflage themselves in proximity to plantlife. This ability, in conjunction with being prone to desertion, is described as the reason why the Colovian armies stopped using the superior Bosmer archers in their legions after a failed experiment in the War of Rihad. It is said that "they would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable." While this can be interpreted as exaggeration, their superior stealth still factored into them not being commonly recruited into archer regiments for the Empire. It should be considered that the Imperial Legion is one of the most tactically advanced and honed military forces in Tamriel, making them a very reliable source for information of military importance such as stealth capabilities of potential enemies or allies.

  Sources:
  

  BlueViolet wrote: »

  
  War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer
  
  Valenwood: A Study
  

  
  Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
• The emotional argument of habitute and attachement - while not a strong argument on its own when talking about delicate matters such as balance, in conjunction with the reasons given above, it adds gravity to the situation and highlights the importance of this issue.
  We, the players, are not a homogenous mass and nobody can speak for the entire playerbase without needing to differentiate. Thus this may not apply for every player individually.
  Prior to the Wrathstone release, Bosmer was not considered a "good race" in terms of combat power by most. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of stamina sustain, will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer because of their looks will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer for roleplaying and lore will continue to do so now. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of their improved sneaking have now either switched to Khajiit or are too attached to the characters they spent time and effort to flesh out and develop to switch off now. These players won't use their race change tokens, because changing the race, means changing everything about the character that they love. Yet, their characters lost their reason for being. When there are plenty of reasons (as seen above) for Bosmer to retain their stealthiness, then it will be difficult for these players to move on from their characters. Most of us, who still think of this as an important issue, chose the Bosmer race with the substantiated expectation that choosing Bosmer would always mean sneaking superiorly to most races. If it was merely an attachment to the stealth gameplay and not the race, then these players would have adapted and moved on already, however they would have never created a Bosmer specifically, if wanting to excel at stealth gameplay played no roll in their decision. The Wrathstone update betrayed this expectations and is making others fear that "they may be next". Instilling this kind of fear into players will ultimately drive people away and hurt the diversity of the playerbase if not harm the total numbers noticably.

Race description direct from Elder Scrolls game manuals throughout the years:

BlueRaven wrote: »

I just went ahead and took some screen shots of what the various manuals say about Wood Elves.

(Hopefully got the order correct.)

Elder Scrolls 1 Arena



Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall



Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind



Elder scrolls 4 Oblivion



(There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

Full manuals can be found here;

https://manuals.bethsoft.com

To submit feedback to your Class Reps:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Brought up here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels

Link is this: https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

The official thread:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/453551/upcoming-racial-balance-changes-for-update-21/p1

Other threads of feedback:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458816/once-again-im-underwhelmed-bosmers-hunter-eye/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459778/wood-elf-racial-changes-zos-please-stop-ignoring-your-community/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458645/as-a-wood-elf-what-utility-racial-passive-is-the-best/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460182/save-the-bosmer/p1

Previous passive: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your damage done while in stealth by 10%.

On live as of Feb 26 2019: Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

Our suggestion: Reduces your detection radius in stealth by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

If a Star Trek game took intellect away from Vulcans after 5 years (and 5 previous games worth of history), Trekkies would be rightfully upset. Even if you made your Vulcan to be a Pon Farr Gladiator and not a scientist, it doesn’t negate that the whole story/fantasy universe has had a defining trait for that race for years.

Night_Wolf2112

Basically... the developers will listen and change things, unless 'they just don't want to!'

Dont worry, this passive will be altered in a future update... how far in the future, idk. It's bad and they know it. They have heard the complaints and the valid reasoning. (Lore and Logic)

For now... 'they just don't want to!'

Ratzkifal

Dear developers, consider the following.

Why do people pick Bosmer on live?
Generally there are only the following three types:

• A - people who pick Bosmer because they are cute/like the lore
• B - people on AD who want stamina sustain and don't have access to Redguard
• C - people who like sneaking and/or ganking in pvp

Naturally these types exist on a spectrum with only very few people fitting in only one category neatly without overlap.
With the coming changes, the people in the overlap of group A and group C will feel alienated because a core aspect of their lore-reflecting gameplay has been taken away from them.
Do not alienate your most loyal Bosmer! Neither sneak sets nor race change tokens can mend our feelings!

Jameliel

Great post! As someone who has played TES games for well over 10 years, I feel removing the stealth passive is a stomp to the face. Given zos's past record it's a low chance they will leave it, but here's to a small hope.

BlueRaven

Amazing post! Really well written!

ChivalrousPoptart

At first I though it made sense for literal cat people to have the best sneak because, you know, cats. But then I though to myself, when was the last time I caught an elf sneaking up on me?

Yeah, Bosmer need their stealth passive back.

Aliyavana

People dont like the new racials because it isnt exactly much of an improvement. Penetration on dodge roll is laughable. i wont miss the stealth bonus if the replacement racials are good.

FrancisCrawford

I made a Bosmer nightblade even before there was a justice system, anticipating that he would be useful for thieving at some point. And Thieves Guild turned out to be one of the better quest lines in the game.

Now, years later, I use the stealth mainly to speed through delves and the like, something I have done as recently as today, for the Morrowind event.

The character is based on one I made over 25 years ago, a D&D half elf. I'd really prefer not to change him to Khajit.

MartiniDaniels

Thanks for the post, I sent feedback with links to forum threads too.

Everstorm

What annoys me the most is that ZOS seems completely oblivious to the fact that a lot of people grow attached to their characters as they are. In the grand sceme of balance the stealth buff means very little but it is the reason why my stamblade is a bosmer. A good while back when I was struggling with her I actually changed race twice, to imperial and redguard, but it just didn't feel right. Hecate is a bosmer, a sneaky vampire bosmer.

BlueRaven

Everstorm wrote: »

What annoys me the most is that ZOS seems completely oblivious to the fact that a lot of people grow attached to their characters as they are. In the grand sceme of balance the stealth buff means very little but it is the reason why my stamblade is a bosmer. A good while back when I was struggling with her I actually changed race twice, to imperial and redguard, but it just didn't feel right. Hecate is a bosmer, a sneaky vampire bosmer.

Exactly. If these were just tweaks I don’t think there would be an issue. But bosmers (and some others) are being changed far to greatly. And this rather cavalier suggestion of “just change races” does appear to be a bit callous.

Nerouyn

I'd rather racials simply be scrapped so we could play whatever race we want how we want. Like in the single player games.

But if they're going to have racials, taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer makes ZO liars.

They claim that one of the key goals for these changes is to give players more options when selecting a race. Supposedly they don't want every player who enjoys a particular play style to feel obliged to pick one race whose passives maximise that.

By taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer and leaving it with Khajiit they're definitely going backwards.

Maybe the solution is to also take it away from Khajiit.

BlueRaven

Nerouyn wrote: »

I'd rather racials simply be scrapped so we could play whatever race we want how we want. Like in the single player games.

But if they're going to have racials, taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer makes ZO liars.

They claim that one of the key goals for these changes is to give players more options when selecting a race. Supposedly they don't want every player who enjoys a particular play style to feel obliged to pick one race whose passives maximise that.

By taking the stealth bonus away from Bosmer and leaving it with Khajiit they're definitely going backwards.

Maybe the solution is to also take it away from Khajiit.

Well the single player games DO have racials. In skyrim for example, when you make a character each race has bonuses to certain skill lines based on race. But it is done in a subtle way which is nice.

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Races_(Skyrim)

And I don't think Kahjits should lose their stealth bonus as another one of their bonuses is pickpocketing and that goes hand in hand with stealth.

Actually if I was a game designer (and I am not) I would have put a stealth passive in ESO with Argonians and Dunmer as well. They have a long history of assassins and a stealth passive would reflect that.

Wrathmane

Nerouyn wrote: »

I'd rather racials simply be scrapped so we could play whatever race we want how we want. Like in the single player games.

The single player games do have racial passive bonuses.

Narvuntien

I am almost certainly swaping to Khajit with the current racial on the PTS as they best support my stealth gameplay.

The character I am swaping is my first character and I didn't spend a lot of time on character creation or naming because I just wanted to jump into the game to see if I liked it, I wasn't sure I was going to like it having not played an MMO before.

So while I am attached to the playstyle I am not particularly attached to role-playing aspect of this character as I am to others I have.

heaven13

My very first character in this game, in closed beta, was a bow stealth Bosmer. Which is what I have played in every Elder Scrolls game prior. Attack from stealth, steal everything not nailed to the floor, profit. Though she's been tweaked since beta, I still have my beta Bosmer. And it's because of stealth that I created her in the first place.

Verbal_Earthworm

My only stealth character is a bosmer nightblade who I created to do the dark brotherhood and thieves guild quests.

After years of farting about she has finally maxed both of those skill lines, just in the nick of time it appears.

She does not pvp whatsoever so the new pathetically implemented bosmer racial is both pointless and useless to her.

If ZOS is going to force us into pvp-only passives then they are just being woefully ignorant.

I do not pvp, my characters do not pvp, stop hitting us with the pvp-hammer-of-stupidity.

kojou

I just wanted to add that I also agree with the OP.

3 m of Stealth detection is a useless passive. If it was 6-8 m then it could at least be fun for pvp, but 3 m is not going to help with anything.

I would be ok with just removing it and improving one of the other passives. Or maybe we could increase stam regen while invisible... Something...

joseayalac

not every passive has to be pve oriented, the other races are getting passives that are useless in some areas of the game as well

anadandy

joseayalac wrote: »

not every passive has to be pve oriented, the other races are getting passives that are useless in some areas of the game as well

Once again: Less useful is not the same as having zero use. NPCs do not stealth, thus Stealth Detection is actually useless in PVE. What other passive has zero applicable use in a segment of the game - with possibly the exception of the 1% AP gain Bretons have (and even that, you can get AP for doing PVE town quests)

Shardaxx

I agree. The stealth detection is utterly useless in pve, and too small to make any difference in pvp. AKA, its trash.

They are clearly trying to promote Khajeet because this is their DLC, but I'm annoyed this has come at the expense of my beloved wood elves.

I might try changing to Khajeet, and change back again if it annoys me too much. At least we're getting some free tokens. I wish they would stop messing around with stuff like this tho.

Left4Daud

They need to take the Hunter’s Eye passive back to the balancing dart board before that travesty goes live.

Seems to be how they come up with these things.

anadandy

Left4Daud wrote: »

They need to take the Hunter’s Eye passive back to the balancing dart board before that travesty goes live.

There's a saying in the writing world murder your darlings that basically means, no matter how much you love something you created, sometimes it just doesn't work and you cheapen the rest of your work by trying to make it fit. I feel like that's exactly what's going on here. Hunter's Eye sounded good in theory, but when faced with the reality of how much it isn't - rather than go back to the drawing board - they're doubling down on making it work, and it just gets worse every time.

NyassaV

I mean it's basically a useless passive. If it gave you sneak speed or means when you crouched you went into stealth faster it'd be more useful. It's literally only good for stealing and the like and barely serves any purpose in the combat of the game. It's actually a really good change and yall shouldn't complain as much. Wrobel is gone so have some faith the changes are stupid or weird

idk

max_only wrote: »

To submit feedback to your Class Reps:

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Brought up here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/416444/eso-class-representative-program-feedback-channels

Link is this: https://goo.gl/forms/gGFVynPcDcZn5yiH2

3/4 of the testers do not want the new passive
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/458645/as-a-wood-elf-what-utility-racial-passive-is-the-best/p1

I am not arguing one way or another over what the OP has said. However poll above they provided in their second post does not support their argument. It is poorly written and extremely biased from the first word in the OP to the poll itself.

MrGarlic

Ignore. Read the wrong thing and replied to it here.

ruikkarikun

It is good, but man we need last passive works also in PVE. So new one with dodge also bad for PVE, but previous same. Which needs to be changed more.

bpmachete

They should change the hunter passive and split it between reduction in detection radius and detect stealthing enemies at the higher range.

They should be able to detect sneaking enemies maybe 2 meters farther than anyone else and be detected maybe 2 meters closer.

They should be balanced so they have less detection reduction than Khajiits, but to compensate more detection ability. But they should not be more stealthy than Khajiits, I mean Khajiits are cats, just because the moon was flying over someplace some of them look humanoid but, no man or mer can be stealthier than a cat.

Shardaxx

bpmachete wrote: »

no man or mer can be stealthier than a cat.

You're right, they are so stealthy I'd like the option to permanently hide them from the game.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

so many complains about elves...feels good to be khajiit.