Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

MartiniDaniels

max_only wrote: »

Something a guildmate pointed out to me (who isn’t a Bosmer and isn’t interested in ever being one) is that we have to spend Stamina doing an ACTION in order to get our PASSIVE.

I said that it irked me yes, but so many rolypoly players love it, I’d get no support if I called for change. If it was me, I’d have the extra penetration on all the time, no roll dodge required. But I’ve hesitated to bring it up and muddy the waters.

wishlist14 wrote: »

I'm done!!

I've wanted to play one character of each race for a while and finally got close, I was just missing a nord but I don't tank. Today, I did a bit of research on what would be the best build for my lil wood elf and apparantly found out she would only be good to rp Lolita. It disturbed me so much I decided to race and name change her to a redguard.

So all these changes to see Redguards and orcs best race for stamina builds
Altmer best race for Magicka builds?

Thank you for dumbing it down to 3 race choices

Well, it's quite pointless change if you are looking for stats only. Orcs are better then any stamrace, yes, but redguards and bosmers are almost the same, if you calculate redguard sustain bonuses and bosmer sustain you will see that it is almost the same and redguard is slightly better in "dummy-like" bosses, but as soon as there are mechanics where you can't attack for several seconds and need to move somewhere, recover from cc etc, bosmer comes in front with notable margin, because wood elf recovery works always (aside from sprinting, crouching and blocking, and you don't do that much in PVE content) while redguard passives works only on active use.
In PVP bosmer is still very good, because as stam class you roll-dodge a lot.

So it's more about lost of overland stealth then combat efficiency. Also it's a pity that no bonuses at all for bosmer healers, but same may be said about a lot of races, most are pigeonholed to one role in PVE.

colossalvoids

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

BlueRaven

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

I can’t tell if this a troll, or someone who is bad at reading comprehension...

And I love how people constantly use RP as a negative. Like everyone here played Skyrim because of it’s wonderful inventory UI and multiplayer aspects.

And this bit...

“Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it.”

That’s obviously bait, right?

Edit:

colossalvoids wrote: »

Looking at this comment section I wonder who still thinks that endgamers are more toxic than regular crowd.

Gratz and keep on conquering!

Oh! Oh! Oh! I can answer that, want to see an example?

Ratzkifal

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

wedgebert

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Except any changes to Bosmer being competitive come from its stamina recovery passive and max stamina passive. Hunter's Eye is contributing 0% towards any competitive advantage. Any I'd wager everyone complaining in this thread is perfectly happy to with those passives (with the possible bewilderment of losing disease resistance but keeping poison).

As to being top sustain, if I want the best stamina sustain I'd choose redguard. So long as I can land a melee attack every 5 seconds (which isn't that hard to do in most fights), I'd have 380 extra stam recovery compared to the Bosmer 258. Plus my weapon abilities cost 8% less, saving even more stamina. Only times Bosmer have better recovery are if they're going Bow/Bow, have no way to actually get in melee, or there are no enemies around.

And if I cared about stam dps, not just recovery, I'd go Orc or Dunmer.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

I'm guessing you just don't meet a lot of people. I'd say your insulting and condescending attitude factors into that. Or to flip it around, I guess you could just be a grumpy min/maxer who was never very good at math to understand why Redguard have better sustain.

Also, maybe try reading the point of the thread. Fixing the stealth issue would in no way change the playstyle of Bosmer in combat. While most Bosmer players would like the garbage dodge roll skill fixed, this thread's main goal is the return of stealth.

Ratzkifal

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

@colossalvoids Okay, but how has the detection improved your gameplay? Have you ever noticed that there was an increase to it? Nobody is denying that the overall combat balance is now in a better state than before and that Bosmer got an overall buff in terms of endgame viability. However that is not the point of the thread and not the issue we are complaining about. Even Ibeprofun isn't talking about the stamina regen when he/she said that. The only thing that is getting on all of our nerves is the removal of stealth that is not lore friendly and unjustified by ZOS' own reasoning as well as limiting choice and player freedom. There is also not a lot of actual "hate" to be found here, at least compared to some other threads about combat related issues, just a lot of salt and high blood pressure.
And calling us a "little group" is a bit of a stretch if we have polls like this one supporting our claims that there is indeed an issue to be discussed. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460648/which-of-the-racial-changes-do-you-dislike-the-most/p1
438 people (currently) asked which new racial changes are disliked the most and 136 people voted Bosmer. Interestingly, the largest dislike ratings are the ones that got changes that are going against established lore/theme of a race. I don't think that putting Imperials and Nords seperate would have changed the results either. Now ask yourself if these 136 forum goers are really just "RPers that were bad at stealth and don't do endgame content anyway" and if they are, why their opinions are worth less than yours.

MartiniDaniels

wedgebert wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Except any changes to Bosmer being competitive come from its stamina recovery passive and max stamina passive. Hunter's Eye is contributing 0% towards any competitive advantage. Any I'd wager everyone complaining in this thread is perfectly happy to with those passives (with the possible bewilderment of losing disease resistance but keeping poison).

As to being top sustain, if I want the best stamina sustain I'd choose redguard. So long as I can land a melee attack every 5 seconds (which isn't that hard to do in most fights), I'd have 380 extra stam recovery compared to the Bosmer 258. Plus my weapon abilities cost 8% less, saving even more stamina. Only times Bosmer have better recovery are if they're going Bow/Bow, have no way to actually get in melee, or there are no enemies around.

And if I cared about stam dps, not just recovery, I'd go Orc or Dunmer.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

Night_Wolf2112

Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.

Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?

Ratzkifal

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Why do so many people have such poor reading comprehension? We don't want ALL bosmer passives changed..... just the word 'detection' to 'reduction'.

Tiny elf hide in tree, hard to see ... is that easier?

I think you are right. I would blame it on 36 pages, but ... it's clear in the title and clear in the first post... Maybe people are thinking we want the 10% damage back? But then again the last guy was talking about RPers being "bad at stealth" which doesn't sound like he was talking about dps there. Hard to explain it any other way than through poor reading comprehension.

wedgebert

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

That's fair, I'm not taking bonuses to stamina recovery into account. That swings things a little bit in Bosmer's favor, but not by much.

Let's use a common nightblade example of DW/Bow. On the bow bar, you're likely going to be using Endless Hail and Poison Injection, both with durations of 10 seconds. We'll assume that your up time is 100%, sometimes you reapply too early, and others too late, but it works out to 10 seconds. They have a cost of 4051 and 2430 stamina respectively. Modified to 3443 and 2066 by Ranger. That works out to 6481 * 0.85 = 5,509 stamina every 10 seconds. Depending on how the Redguard cost reduction is applied (additive with Ranger, or multiplicative), the new stamina costs are either

6481 * 0.85 * 0.92 = 5068 stamina (a savings of 441)
or
6481 * 0.77 = 4990 stamina (a savings of 519).

So, best cause with just these two skills is saving the equivalent of 88 - 104 stamina recovery. Add that to their base passive that restores 950 every 5 seconds (equal to 380 recovery) and you have 468-484. Take your 90% uptime and you get 421-436. That's practically equal to Bosmer.

If you have any kind of weapon skill spammable the savings from Martial Training will blow Bosmer out of the water. You basically get an extra 160 recovery for every 1000 stamina an ability costs. (Assuming one attack per second, 1000 * 0.08 = 80 stamina saved. Since recovery is per two seconds, 80 * 2 = 160).

But none of that matters, even if Bosmer had demonstrably better sustain or even if they had the worst sustain in the game, this thread is about losing stealth. That's why a lot of us are upset, it's not about DPS, it's about playstyle and lore.

Cundu_Ertur

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

Yes, and you get all of that AND three extra skill points. Because the detection is completely useless in PVE and so close to completely useless as to not matter a whit in PVP. The roll dodge maneuver bonus is nice if you roll dodge a lot anyways, but not a reliable or affordable bonus to try to keep up on its own merits.

And, while they aren't as weak as they were before, Bosmer are still not a top stamina race. Just not as far at the bottom.
I am not willing to trade 100% of my racial identity for a marginal improvement.

ArchangelIsraphel

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

I'm a roleplayer. I main a bosmer.

I'm good at stealth and I still want the old stealth passives back. Why? Because these changes not only spit in the face of the lore itself, but because they do create an inconvenience. Even if you are good at stealth, why shouldn't you enjoy passives that enhance your own skill and make stealth gameplay feel even better? Wanting an enhancement does not mean a player is "bad". And even if someone weren't talented at stealth gameplay, why should that make their opinion wrong? Why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy having a passive that makes it easier on them?

Why on earth should someone being good or bad at stealth gameplay be a prerequisite to having an opinion about the passives? Why does someone need to be "good" at something in order for others to consider that desire valid?

"Oh, you only want the passive back because you're bad at stealth" Is just an excuse people use to trivialize the real issue being discussed here.

And from my experience in guilds, many people- not just roleplayers, are irritated about this change, and are following this thread, reading it daily for updates, even if they aren't contributing to it themselves.

Also, not to de-rail, but roleplaying has nothing to do with your skill at playing the game. Why people believe this is beyond me, especially when roleplay requires a considerable amount of skill and mental dexterity in order to come up with replies to situations on the fly as they change from moment to moment. You're juggling complex story lines, trying to stay in-character, while reacting to situations that are, in many cases, not planned in advance. Really, it's the verbal version of doing a dungeon, except you don't get a chance to memorize the mechanics or practice in advance, or watch a youtube video telling you what to expect. In fact many roleplayers go out of their way to refine their ability to play in order to give their characters the reputation they deserve. And even if they don't, their reasons for wanting the passive back are still valid.

Universe

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

Sarcastic joke

MartiniDaniels

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

So, best cause with just these two skills is saving the equivalent of 88 - 104 stamina recovery. Add that to their base passive that restores 950 every 5 seconds (equal to 380 recovery) and you have 468-484. Take your 90% uptime and you get 421-436. That's practically equal to Bosmer.

If you have any kind of weapon skill spammable the savings from Martial Training will blow Bosmer out of the water. You basically get an extra 160 recovery for every 1000 stamina an ability costs. (Assuming one attack per second, 1000 * 0.08 = 80 stamina saved. Since recovery is per two seconds, 80 * 2 = 160).

But none of that matters, even if Bosmer had demonstrably better sustain or even if they had the worst sustain in the game, this thread is about losing stealth. That's why a lot of us are upset, it's not about DPS, it's about playstyle and lore.

I agree on that, it's just not fair to say that bosmer is some bottom level race combat wise. It's excellent for PVP and okay for PVE stam dps just like any other stam race with exception of orc, who has biggest load of bonus stats of all 10 races. So it's orc OP, not bosmer underpowered.
Redguard is not better then bosmer as stamdps, redguard is better at tanking and healing but still far behind BiS races so that is irrelevant.
Stealth.. yes, anytime I do overland content on bosmer I miss stealth and those small occasional stealing/pickpocketing here and there.

zyk

I feel this topic has exposed a lot of people.

Forget the details of this change. I am certain practically no one here would enjoy having a part of their favorite characters changed without a very very good reason. Particularly if they've enjoyed that aspect of the game for years.

When damage shields were given a cast time on PTS not too long ago, the result was overt raging and meltdowns.

In contrast, no one considered the Bosmer race OP. No one complained about its stealth passive. Yet ZOS changed something that's important to players on a whim.

I think some people should learn about empathy and consider why they may be lacking it.

max_only

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

max_only

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

Night_Wolf2112

Maybe we are looking and talking about this the wrong way.....

What if ZoS/ESO is invoking "The right of theft" on our stealth reduction and we must give them something of equal value to acknowledge the prowess they have shown in stealing from us!

Jeremy

There is no good reason I can think of to remove the stealth passive from Bosmer. All it did was needlessly annoy their customers. That being said: least they gave you a race change token to switch to Khajit.

I"m in the same boat as I"m strongly considering changing my Altmer to a Breton

Tasear

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. I recommend in future they get get community ambassador to look at non combat gameplay or someone. Also I think they got a lore master as fast as they did because of backlash of bosmers, altmer, and argonian issue. Still these are easily fixable.

Altmer they have given it lore.

The argonian and bosmers have the wrong restiences. So let's swap them

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed. Other option make due on promises to improve stealth in gameplay.

Jaraal

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

A_Silverius

max_only wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

Done
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5900346/#Comment_5900346

Tasear

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

You have my personal support for it.

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Jaraal

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

The difference being that it wouldn't affect nine other races, who would still benefit from the vampire passive.

But yeah. Best solution would be to restore the original stealth reduction perk. However, they are more likely to change it to something new and say "We made a tweak" than to restore the old benefit and say "We made a mistake."

Ratzkifal

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...

"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. I recommend in future they get get community ambassador to look at non combat gameplay or someone. Also I think they got a lore master as fast as they did because of backlash of bosmers, altmer, and argonian issue. Still these are easily fixable.

Altmer they have given it lore.

The argonian and bosmers have the wrong restiences. So let's swap them

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed. Other option make due on promises to improve stealth in gameplay.

@Tasear Alright, if you say there was a mistake, then I'll believe it and set my expectations accordingly. I heard there was something about the NDA dropping on the 28th, how much of it will be dropped? Will you be able to clear some things up then or are there permanent secrets to be kept? I am not sure if you can even answer that question or this one for that matter, so I guess I'll just have to ask you again after the 28th.

Also, the Altmer change... oh boy, they gave it some "lore". I wish they didn't to be honest. No lore is better than bad lore. When we are talking about Alteration, then any magically attuned race can tap into that kind of power. Whenever they are going to "fix" the "mistake", I hope they take a second look at the Altmer passive and its explaination within the lore.

Shardaxx

I changed to khajiit today. Stam regen dropped about 300, gonna see how it goes for some pvp this week hopefully that extra crit dam will be noticeable.

Tasear

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

Universe

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL
It seems the forums can't understand jokes
L2UnderstandSarcasm!