Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

colossalvoids · March 2019

Had a good laugh out of my personality analysis and such, it's more telling about the analyser I guess but thanks anyway.
I'll clear that rp thing up for you, as I was referring to ones that have no idea of sneak mechanics ingame and relying on passives and sets alone but more precisely ones that always have a problem with any changes probably going from rl insecurities. Even when they were told of changes to come they can't just wait as everyone else (pve stam and pvp mag sorcs, nb tanks, stamplars and so on) but want everything just now and here.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

colossalvoids wrote: »

Had a good laugh out of my personality analysis and such, it's more telling about the analyser I guess but thanks anyway.
I'll clear that rp thing up for you, as I was referring to ones that have no idea of sneak mechanics ingame and relying on passives and sets alone but more precisely ones that always have a problem with any changes probably going from rl insecurities. Even when they were told of changes to come they can't just wait as everyone else (pve stam and pvp mag sorcs, nb tanks, stamplars and so on) but want everything just now and here.

Cool story bro.
Have a nice life.

wedgebert · March 2019

colossalvoids wrote: »

Had a good laugh out of my personality analysis and such, it's more telling about the analyser I guess but thanks anyway.
I'll clear that rp thing up for you, as I was referring to ones that have no idea of sneak mechanics ingame and relying on passives and sets alone but more precisely ones that always have a problem with any changes probably going from rl insecurities. Even when they were told of changes to come they can't just wait as everyone else (pve stam and pvp mag sorcs, nb tanks, stamplars and so on) but want everything just now and here.

You're the one who came on and insulted people, not me.

If you think people are complaining in here because we relied on bonus stealth and now can't do anything, well, I guess you haven't bothered to even try reading. We're upset because we chose Bosmer because we wanted to be superior sneak thieves. It's the core racial identity, but I guess you don't really know any of the lore. Hell, some of us have played Bosmer for 10+ years because of that reason.

We don't have problems with change. However if we all logged in tomorrow to super magic Orcs, tanky Altmer, and agile Nords, there would be uproar because that's not what any of those races are known for.

We don't want everything here and now. If they have plans for future stealth (that doesn't strip Bosmer of their identity), they should have waited until then to make the changes.

But since you're obviously a troll, I'm not sure why I'm bothering to feed you.

ArchangelIsraphel · March 2019

colossalvoids wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Bottom line... You have a LOT of pissed off people over this. Are there ANY really excited people? They made a change that straight up pissed people off. One, or a few devs decided to do this and you have literally hundreds of pissed off players. Great job.

ZOS NEEDS TO TAKE A LOOK AT WHOS MAKING THE DECISIONS OVER THERE.

It doesn't take a college degree to realize pissing off your clients is a bad business decision.

Yes, lots of people like the changes and now can enjoy playing bosmer and not just sneaking in towns\rp for some reason but to really play the game at competitive level - dungeons, trials and stuff, you know. Bosmer was the worst stam race but now it's top sustain one (for classes with a spammable in their kit) which is great for new players and for pvp crowd.

Personally made one more bosmer from redguard and it's so much fun playing one.
In game I've never encountered a knowledgeable person that didn't liked new bosmer passives, some grumpy rpers that never was good at stealh gameplay and that's it. Most hate comes from forums with a little group of people like always, no surprise here. So no need to portray it like everyone is pissed, it's just laughable already.

I'm a roleplayer. I main a bosmer.

I'm good at stealth and I still want the old stealth passives back. Why? Because these changes not only spit in the face of the lore itself, but because they do create an inconvenience. Even if you are good at stealth, why shouldn't you enjoy passives that enhance your own skill and make stealth gameplay feel even better? Wanting an enhancement does not mean a player is "bad". And even if someone weren't talented at stealth gameplay, why should that make their opinion wrong? Why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy having a passive that makes it easier on them?

Why on earth should someone being good or bad at stealth gameplay be a prerequisite to having an opinion about the passives? Why does someone need to be "good" at something in order for others to consider that desire valid?

"Oh, you only want the passive back because you're bad at stealth" Is just an excuse people use to trivialize the real issue being discussed here.

And from my experience in guilds, many people- not just roleplayers, are irritated about this change, and are following this thread, reading it daily for updates, even if they aren't contributing to it themselves.

Also, not to de-rail, but roleplaying has nothing to do with your skill at playing the game. Why people believe this is beyond me, especially when roleplay requires a considerable amount of skill and mental dexterity in order to come up with replies to situations on the fly as they change from moment to moment. You're juggling complex story lines, trying to stay in-character, while reacting to situations that are, in many cases, not planned in advance. Really, it's the verbal version of doing a dungeon, except you don't get a chance to memorize the mechanics or practice in advance, or watch a youtube video telling you what to expect. In fact many roleplayers go out of their way to refine their ability to play in order to give their characters the reputation they deserve. And even if they don't, their reasons for wanting the passive back are still valid.

Universe · March 2019

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

Sarcastic joke

MartiniDaniels · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

This is all wrong. You have like 60-80% bonus to stamina recovery on any class, and even more on nightblade and sorc. So from calculation both redguard and wood elf land at ~450 recovery bonus. Also if you ever used proc abilities with fast cooldown like 5 seconds, you know their uptime will NEVER be 100%. It will be 90% at best and if there are a lot of mechanics it will be much lower. So in real conditions of hard content where you need to do a lot of mechanics bosmer will be generally superior to redguard.
Orcs are.. too different from RP perspective, so only real alternative to bosmer is dunmer. But I have dunmer magblade and sustain is harsh.. as soon as your healer didn't put ele drain your resources melt it hilarious speed and you are forced to use heavy attacks to compensate.

So, best cause with just these two skills is saving the equivalent of 88 - 104 stamina recovery. Add that to their base passive that restores 950 every 5 seconds (equal to 380 recovery) and you have 468-484. Take your 90% uptime and you get 421-436. That's practically equal to Bosmer.

If you have any kind of weapon skill spammable the savings from Martial Training will blow Bosmer out of the water. You basically get an extra 160 recovery for every 1000 stamina an ability costs. (Assuming one attack per second, 1000 * 0.08 = 80 stamina saved. Since recovery is per two seconds, 80 * 2 = 160).

But none of that matters, even if Bosmer had demonstrably better sustain or even if they had the worst sustain in the game, this thread is about losing stealth. That's why a lot of us are upset, it's not about DPS, it's about playstyle and lore.

I agree on that, it's just not fair to say that bosmer is some bottom level race combat wise. It's excellent for PVP and okay for PVE stam dps just like any other stam race with exception of orc, who has biggest load of bonus stats of all 10 races. So it's orc OP, not bosmer underpowered.
Redguard is not better then bosmer as stamdps, redguard is better at tanking and healing but still far behind BiS races so that is irrelevant.
Stealth.. yes, anytime I do overland content on bosmer I miss stealth and those small occasional stealing/pickpocketing here and there.

zyk · March 2019

I feel this topic has exposed a lot of people.

Forget the details of this change. I am certain practically no one here would enjoy having a part of their favorite characters changed without a very very good reason. Particularly if they've enjoyed that aspect of the game for years.

When damage shields were given a cast time on PTS not too long ago, the result was overt raging and meltdowns.

In contrast, no one considered the Bosmer race OP. No one complained about its stealth passive. Yet ZOS changed something that's important to players on a whim.

I think some people should learn about empathy and consider why they may be lacking it.

max_only · March 2019

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

max_only · March 2019

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

Night_Wolf2112 · March 2019

Maybe we are looking and talking about this the wrong way.....

What if ZoS/ESO is invoking "The right of theft" on our stealth reduction and we must give them something of equal value to acknowledge the prowess they have shown in stealing from us!

Jeremy · March 2019

There is no good reason I can think of to remove the stealth passive from Bosmer. All it did was needlessly annoy their customers. That being said: least they gave you a race change token to switch to Khajit.

I"m in the same boat as I"m strongly considering changing my Altmer to a Breton

Tasear · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...
"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. I recommend in future they get get community ambassador to look at non combat gameplay or someone. Also I think they got a lore master as fast as they did because of backlash of bosmers, altmer, and argonian issue. Still these are easily fixable.

Altmer they have given it lore.

The argonian and bosmers have the wrong restiences. So let's swap them

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed. Other option make due on promises to improve stealth in gameplay.

Jaraal · March 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

A_Silverius · March 2019

max_only wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

ibeprofun wrote: »

Wood elf went from designated nightblade class to the least used class.

How is the shortest class not great at stealth? No one's going to want to play the smallest class unless there's something good about it.

Personal comment directly to those responsible for this change: you are wrong.

Wood elves are bis at cheese rolling now I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNj67kwWBoQ

Their accents are probably accurate too! Lol I cried laughing @A_Silverius post this in the meme thread lol

Done

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5900346/#Comment_5900346

Tasear · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

You have my personal support for it.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Jaraal · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

The difference being that it wouldn't affect nine other races, who would still benefit from the vampire passive.

But yeah. Best solution would be to restore the original stealth reduction perk. However, they are more likely to change it to something new and say "We made a tweak" than to restore the old benefit and say "We made a mistake."

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically they tossed him softballs and hit them.... absolutely 0 hard questions. They acted like there were no problems and it sounded like they will just tweak the lore to cover up the huge diversion they took from it.

To be fair, he was only there to introduce himself and talk about the job rather than talk about actual job-related topics since he just got the job and had probably no influence on any current changes nor had the time to talk to people involved.

I wonder how many of these changes happened in the “gap” between loremasters.

I'm not even sure these changes actually happened "in" the gap. It's entirely possible that these were sanctioned by Schick, although I don't think this is actually what ZOS was doing. Sounds impractical too.

More likely, combat devs had a meeting with the reps and came up with pain points and goals, then went to the lore team to get a summary from them what the different races are about (probably not too detailed and I think in the case of Bosmer too focused on agility alone) and then the combat devs went back to their workplace and started crunching numbers, discussing and evaluating how much item-set-boni something is worth and so on until they were happy without checking back with the lore team. Then they put that onto PTS and after that it wasn't in the hands of the lore team anymore.

There could also have been some miscommunication here and there, like the lore team saying...
"stealth is important" and then the combat devs say "yeah, you're right, but the current stealth passive is just way too strong on gankers and we can't make it powerful and universal and be strictly sneak-related because nobody sneaks in trials."
(For everyone who doesn't immediately see the flaw in this argumentation - stealth could still be represented in the sneak radius reduction without harming combat balance or limiting a power boost to a niche mechanic.)
That convinces the lore guy to stop pushing and the combat guy tells that to this combat friends and they go "okay, so we can scrap stealth. That's perfect, because we can make another distinction to Khajiit there, because they were too similar before". Basically everyone just got a severe case of routine blindness and tunnel vision where they focus too much on the numbers and forget the bigger picture.

Obviously I am interpreting things with a lot more good will than the creators of crown crates and 100$ houses deserve, but to be fair, they also made the game I loved playing for four years.

Not the correct story

@Tasear What is the correct story then? I'd like to hear that. So far all I can do is speculate, because nobody is actually communicating about these things. I'm trying my best to give ZOS as much benefit of the doubt and assume no malice whenever possible. If my story is not correct, then I fear for what the correct story may be.

I am not throwing anyone under the bus and there's still a document saying I can't. There was definitely a huge mistake. I recommend in future they get get community ambassador to look at non combat gameplay or someone. Also I think they got a lore master as fast as they did because of backlash of bosmers, altmer, and argonian issue. Still these are easily fixable.

Altmer they have given it lore.

The argonian and bosmers have the wrong restiences. So let's swap them

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed. Other option make due on promises to improve stealth in gameplay.

@Tasear Alright, if you say there was a mistake, then I'll believe it and set my expectations accordingly. I heard there was something about the NDA dropping on the 28th, how much of it will be dropped? Will you be able to clear some things up then or are there permanent secrets to be kept? I am not sure if you can even answer that question or this one for that matter, so I guess I'll just have to ask you again after the 28th.

Also, the Altmer change... oh boy, they gave it some "lore". I wish they didn't to be honest. No lore is better than bad lore. When we are talking about Alteration, then any magically attuned race can tap into that kind of power. Whenever they are going to "fix" the "mistake", I hope they take a second look at the Altmer passive and its explaination within the lore.

Shardaxx · March 2019

I changed to khajiit today. Stam regen dropped about 300, gonna see how it goes for some pvp this week hopefully that extra crit dam will be noticeable.

Tasear · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

Universe · March 2019

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL

It seems the forums can't understand jokes

L2UnderstandSarcasm!

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

And that's silly. What will Breton get since Altmer get magic? There hasn't been a problem with Bosmer and Khajiit both having bonuses to stealth for over 15 years. It is part of the lore for both races, some of which goes even farther back to Daggerfall and beyond, every bit as much as magic is part of the lore for Breton and Altmer. It is impossible to keep from duplicating parts of passives for things: the way Orcs and Dunmer overlap with their respective weapons damage bonuses, or the various stamina bonuses for several races, or the various magicka bonuses for several races. It's silly to single stealth out with some kind of highlanderesque 'there can be only one' nonsense. There has NEVER been only one stealthy race in TES. Ever. It's silly, monumentally Dr. Seuss level rhyming silly, to start with that now.

edit to add: the problem is that the original bonus was too high, and the ability for other races to get a similar bonus non-existent. The racial bonus (which ought to be shared between the Khajiit and Bosmer) should be lower, 1/2 to 1/3 of what it is now; and every race should be able to improve their stealth to a greater degree than now possible.

tyggerbob · March 2019

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Gilliamtherogue
Despite Gilliam's confusing, contradictory and not lore-friendly, response,

Wildbloom wrote: »

ZoS wants the racials to be different. Key word: ZoS.

But that's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out before, both Imperials and Redguards have the 2k stamina bonus. So this 'distinct racials' thing is a crock. No reason they couldn't do the same for Khajiits and Bosmers.

Wildbloom · March 2019

tyggerbob wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Gilliamtherogue
Despite Gilliam's confusing, contradictory and not lore-friendly, response,

Wildbloom wrote: »

ZoS wants the racials to be different. Key word: ZoS.

But that's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out before, both Imperials and Redguards have the 2k stamina bonus. So this 'distinct racials' thing is a crock. No reason they couldn't do the same for Khajiits and Bosmers.

Yes, like I said, flat-stat bonuses aren't in the conversation when it comes to the unique racials. Each race has one racial that has a fun, different gimmick from the others, like the roll speed, stealth bonus, ect. The flat stat bonuses might just be to balance out different output for different races, making some better at some aspects of different roles than others. They have the interesting, non-flat bonuses to make them more unique, and THESE are the ones that I think ZOS wants to keep unique for each race.

Tasear · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Bosmer just add something that makes they good at stealth not just finding people in stealth... like movement speed.

Since they are big on giving set bonuses as passives now, rather than percentages, then why not make the stealth part of the Bosmer passive the same as the Night's Silence or Shadow Dancer's Raiment sets: Ignore the movement penalty of Sneak. Then my Bosmer can trade the NS set for Night Mother's Embrace and be back to an additional 2 meter detection reduction when paired with the 2 meter reduction of the 3 pc bonus of Night Terror set.

It's not quite the 3 meters we had before, and would still put us 1 meter less stealthy than Khajiit.... but it would still make both Bosmer and Khajiit have to wear 2 stealth related sets to hit the cap of both reduction and speed combined.

That also negates a significant vampire perk, and a top level one at that (dark stalker, 9 level vampire req, only procs at stage 4).
I don't see why this is complicated. It was a mistake to take stealth away from Bosmer. Rectify the mistake by not doing that.

Issue is khajitt already has that perk and they wanted things differently between races. So I do believe bosmers do have a case lorewise I think if calling for changes got to see how bosmers can have shealth but not same as khajitt. Also unlike shealth detection make them good as theives.

And that's silly. What will Breton get since Altmer get magic? There hasn't been a problem with Bosmer and Khajiit both having bonuses to stealth for over 15 years. It is part of the lore for both races, some of which goes even farther back to Daggerfall and beyond, every bit as much as magic is part of the lore for Breton and Altmer. It is impossible to keep from duplicating parts of passives for things: the way Orcs and Dunmer overlap with their respective weapons damage bonuses, or the various stamina bonuses for several races, or the various magicka bonuses for several races. It's silly to single stealth out with some kind of highlanderesque 'there can be only one' nonsense. There has NEVER been only one stealthy race in TES. Ever. It's silly, monumentally Dr. Seuss level rhyming silly, to start with that now.

edit to add: the problem is that the original bonus was too high, and the ability for other races to get a similar bonus non-existent. The racial bonus (which ought to be shared between the Khajiit and Bosmer) should be lower, 1/2 to 1/3 of what it is now; and every race should be able to improve their stealth to a greater degree than now possible.

I don't disagree but that's what it says how the approached design changes. The unique non combat things were a looked as one per race as you can see.

So I suggest consider weighing debate with understanding why they made changes then try to convince them otherwise.

How would khajitt be different from bosmer in shealth feature? Why should they both have same or different? How has changes to bosmers impacted gameplay. Show them how this is still very important to your gameplay experience.

tyggerbob · March 2019

zyk wrote: »

I feel this topic has exposed a lot of people.

In contrast, no one considered the Bosmer race OP. No one complained about its stealth passive. Yet ZOS changed something that's important to players on a whim.

I'd be curious how many of the class reps and HM endgame players who were consulted on the changes even PLAY a Bosmer in PVE? Do they play Thieve's Guild or Dark Brotherhood? Bosmer were never a prime choice for endgame play, that I've seen. In fact, in many groups, they were discouraged as being sub-par DPS.

I'm sure their passives weren't a primary concern for any focused endgame player. Maybe asking players who DO play the RP type content like TG and DB might have been a good idea.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

Universe wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL
It seems the forums can't understand jokes
L2UnderstandSarcasm!

@Universe
"Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture stating that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the parodied views. The original statement, by Nathan Poe, read:

Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article."

When I read your first message I spent about 10minutes trying to figure out if you were serious or not. The smiley didn't help at all. I eventually decided to act as if it was sarcasm and ignore it. The several pages of exhausting discussion with people who support the change to stealth in it's current form or otherwise preach radical acceptance have only made it harder, as no matter how ridiculous it sounds, there will be someone on the forum ready to defend it. What a world we are living in.

wedgebert · March 2019

Wildbloom wrote: »

Yes, like I said, flat-stat bonuses aren't in the conversation when it comes to the unique racials. Each race has one racial that has a fun, different gimmick from the others, like the roll speed, stealth bonus, ect. The flat stat bonuses might just be to balance out different output for different races, making some better at some aspects of different roles than others. They have the interesting, non-flat bonuses to make them more unique, and THESE are the ones that I think ZOS wants to keep unique for each race.

Most races don't have a gimmick though. Aside from Altmer, Bosmer, and Khajiit, every trait is directly useful in combat. And even the Altmer one has a tentative use, even if it's pretty weak. Odd that it's only AD that suffers from this.

Every other race is all cost reductions, resistances, and bonus recovery. Nords having 2310 cold resistance isn't a fun gimmick you build your character around. Nor is the Redguard 15% snare reduction (which is trying to give Hunter's Eye a run for its money).

Hell, even Hunter's Eye isn't something you build a viable character around. +3m stealth detection is dwarfed by drinking a detection pot. And, as has been pointed out many times before, the speed/penetration buff is so weak that you wouldn't want to build a character around it.

Really, the only flavor trait you'd build a character around is Khajiit's stealth detection. It's why my character is a Bosmer, because I wanted to be a stealthy thief and in many people's mind, that's Bosmer. I know when I think Khajiit, I more think merchant than thief.

Eiron77 · March 2019

Wildbloom wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Gilliamtherogue
Despite Gilliam's confusing, contradictory and not lore-friendly, response,

Wildbloom wrote: »

ZoS wants the racials to be different. Key word: ZoS.

But that's not necessarily true. Like I pointed out before, both Imperials and Redguards have the 2k stamina bonus. So this 'distinct racials' thing is a crock. No reason they couldn't do the same for Khajiits and Bosmers.

Yes, like I said, flat-stat bonuses aren't in the conversation when it comes to the unique racials. Each race has one racial that has a fun, different gimmick from the others, like the roll speed, stealth bonus, ect. The flat stat bonuses might just be to balance out different output for different races, making some better at some aspects of different roles than others. They have the interesting, non-flat bonuses to make them more unique, and THESE are the ones that I think ZOS wants to keep unique for each race.

The thing is, with Khajit and Bosmer racials in their current iteration, you can give both Khajits and Bosmers the same stealth bonus and the races will not feel the same in the slightest.

Universe · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

Universe wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

A well deserved change to an OP racial passive.
This letter can now be closed

This guy thought Bosmer were op before

https://youtu.be/7bkCpQQ4ajI

Bosmer! OP! In what world? Maybe a potato world?

I was being sarcastic LOL
It seems the forums can't understand jokes
L2UnderstandSarcasm!

@Universe
"Poe's law is an adage of Internet culture stating that, without a clear indicator of the author's intent, it is impossible to create a parody of extreme views so obviously exaggerated that it cannot be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of the parodied views. The original statement, by Nathan Poe, read:

Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is utterly impossible to parody a Creationist in such a way that someone won't mistake for the genuine article."

When I read your first message I spent about 10minutes trying to figure out if you were serious or not. The smiley didn't help at all. I eventually decided to act as if it was sarcasm and ignore it. The several pages of exhausting discussion with people who support the change to stealth in it's current form or otherwise preach radical acceptance have only made it harder, as no matter how ridiculous it sounds, there will be someone on the forum ready to defend it. What a world we are living in.

It is understandable

Yes, a winking smiley can be better than the smiley I used.

I would never support such a terrible and unwarranted racial passive change.
If ZOS wanted to change it, they should have to come up with a useful passive rather than changing it to something which is almost completely useless.
When I read: "Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 10% Movement Speed for 6 seconds and a bonus to Physical and Spell Penetration of 1500 for the duration.", I literally laughed.
This is really situational and unhelpful.
A much better way would have to do the following:
Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Stealthy Bosmer Wrath: Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10%. also, your critical damage in Stealth is increased by 8%. The values are additive."

The stealth detection could be removed in favor of higher damage.
Obviously, this is just a suggestion and in real combat situations it may prove too much.