Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

BlueRaven

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I hope they address some of these weird lore-twisting racial changes tomorrow during ESO Live.

I'd bet my meager savings that they will not.

Because there is no reason to do so. They already said what they wanted to say about racials weeks ago, twice. Once in their big write up and several times with developer comments on the various changes they made. You don't have to like the changes or agree with them, but they already communicated their reasoning for ALL of the changes, multiple times. There's no need to do it again during ESO Live.

Oops, I'm back again.

Actually they didn't explain all of them, and some are actually lore breaking in ESO itself not just over the series. It also becomes a bigger issue when they make remarks about wanting to preserve established lore and totally do the opposite.

Again, it doesn't matter if you agree with their reasoning. They explained several things. What you might count as lore-breaking might not be the case for ZOS. To say they haven't communicated about the changes is not right. They have. You just don't like what they said.

No they communicate with represenatives not with avg players. Again no they didn't explain all the changes. If the game itself states you should have something in dialogue or lore books, you should have it. The devs shouldn't mess with in game lore. Also I thought you said you were done arguing about this?

Yeah I thought so too but you're all (like the ten guys that comment here mostly) just repeating the same arguments for over 30 pages now so I can do it too. Especially when some statements here are not true and full of exaggerations.

Most people don't even bother to join the forums. Just because it's the same people on here doesn't mean a lot of other people don't care as well.

How goes the saying? The dissatisfied people usually go to the forums to vent their anger, the satisfied don't. Based on that the amount of dissatisfied people (Bosmer in this case) seems to be tiny because, as I said, this thread is driven by just a handful of people (plus me now).

You do realize signing up on these forums isn't always a walk in the park right? A lot of people just won't bother specially if they never got a code after purchase like I did.

I know a few people who have this problem.

Jaraal

Well, I for one don't need any clarification. They trashed decades of Bosmer lore because they could. And it doesn't matter what they say, it's still wrong, and will be wrong until the day they return the stealth to it's rightful owners.

A_Silverius

Seraphayel wrote: »

Be honest: it doesn't matter what they say about the change, you all will not like their answer as long as it doesn't contain the words "we will give Bosmer back their Stealth bonus".

Again, they talked about the changes. Several times. You chose to not like what they say and keep doing so until they say exactly what you want to hear. Don't act like it's just about a clarification on why they did this because it's not. You already have that.

That is exactly right, but at least if we got an answer that it won't change then we can choose to start a different character and stop waiting for an answer. Or stop playing ESO altogether for some who've always been a Sneak Thief Bosmer Archer in every single TES game. So yes, there really is a good reason.

Several times yeah, but can you point me to the one which explains why they contradicted themselves by give Bosmer stealth detection after making it clear that "since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game" or how they totally didn't achieve the fifth point of their "Goals and Process: Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling."

Its pretty clear to us that they literally contradicted themselves and did not achieve their own goals and its pretty darn confusing what they are trying to do here and if they are planning on fixing these problems or not. I'm not acting like it's just about clarification, its actually about finding out if they are planning to do anything about their own mess and its the clarification that's needed from them whether they will or will not fix it that will help both players and themselves.

Khipu

A_Silverius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Be honest: it doesn't matter what they say about the change, you all will not like their answer as long as it doesn't contain the words "we will give Bosmer back their Stealth bonus".

Again, they talked about the changes. Several times. You chose to not like what they say and keep doing so until they say exactly what you want to hear. Don't act like it's just about a clarification on why they did this because it's not. You already have that.

That is exactly right, but at least if we got an answer that it won't change then we can choose to start a different character and stop waiting for an answer. Or stop playing ESO altogether for some who've always been a Sneak Thief Bosmer Archer in every single TES game. So yes, there really is a good reason.

Several times yeah, but can you point me to the one which explains why they contradicted themselves by give Bosmer stealth detection after making it clear that "since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game" or how they totally didn't achieve the fifth point of their "Goals and Process: Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling."

Its pretty clear to us that they literally contradicted themselves and did not achieve their own goals and its pretty darn confusing what they are trying to do here and if they are planning on fixing these problems or not. I'm not acting like it's just about clarification, its actually about finding out if they are planning to do anything about their own mess and its the clarification that's needed from them whether they will or will not fix it that will help both players and themselves.

See, why would "the rest of us" have to put our two cents in when the regular posters in this thread posit valid points amazingly well and thoroughly themselves? I'd like an answer to this very thing @A_Silverius is bringing up, yes again. Thank you.

Wildbloom

I don't think it's realistic to expect them to change it back.

Think about that from their point of view. If they patched the 3 yard for stealth back, people would demand more race change tokens so that they could go back to bosmer , then they'd be handing out more free stuff just because we all complained loud enough. And why would it stop there? Other races would ask for racial changes, they'd give out more tokens and now we'd all feel obligated to a race change every now and then, and it'd spiral into a disaster. Or they could not change other races racials and people would be angry that a few bosmer could argue for 34 pages to get a tweak but they can't.

I'm a bosmer. I always have been and I always will be. I've been stealthing around very, very well without the 3 yards post-Wrathstone, scoring the highest rank in my sacraments and heists just about every day since the event started (my fault for tripping on so many damn traps), as well as stealing more than my fair share of goods where the only bounty I get is from missing a pick-pocket.

But as I understand it, this thread is about one thing: change. People don't like change. I didn't like the change at all when it first hit. I didn't even want to log in, I was so bummed out, and I vented in this thread about it more than once. But when I started to play more, I realized that it wasn't as huge of a deal as people are making it out to be. You guys cry "breaking the lore" simply as a viable way to try to make an argument, when it's really about not being able to cope with a negative change to your play-style. It sucks, but I think it's unrealistic for them to give us the 3 yards back, and I think we should put that to rest.

What I do think, however, is that stealth will be expanded upon some more in the coming months, possibly with Elsweyr. They have strongly hinted at it recently (mid January, I think it was) and I know I personally can see a lot of ways they can make stealth more fun. How about a trait that procs the window of opportunity for pickpocketing more often? A trait that makes one pick take all 3 items from an npc? A vanish for every class? A passive that, well, reduces the radius you'll be detected in stealth by 3 yards?

Khajit have a big thing for thieving (hence, their awesome racials) and I don't think it's unrealistic to see some sort of khajit thieving guild in the expansion, or an expansion on legerdemain, or something along those lines now that they've tossed the idea out there. I'm upset about this change too, but this thread is getting a ton of negative attention over something that in no way broke the game. It hurt the lore, but is that really what everyone is upset about? 34 pages -just- because lore was twisted a little? Let's calm down, put on some Night Terror gear, and spend our time doing something more productive like asking ZOS to expand stealth in other, friendlier areas, other than going in circles arguing about the same thing every day for the past 2 months.

wedgebert

Seraphayel wrote: »

[snip]

It would have to be some amazingly thought out words because a lot of people (especially the ones complaining in here) are here in no small part due to the lore. In lore, Bosmer are thieves and archers and right now we're neither.

People need to look past "Bomser players are just whining about something that won't be fixed" and see it more as "If they're willing to violate the lore that much for Bosmer, am I next?"

Future ZOS: "Sure Nords have had cold resistance for decades, but we feel that doesn't lead to any exciting choices. So now they can just 15% higher and dodge roll 15% farther to better represent the physical trials they grow up experiencing"

Future ZOS: "Redguard having a long history of being elite swordsman, but lots of races use swords. So instead getting a cost reduction on their weapon abilities they'll mount and dismount 50% faster to better reflect their renowned affinity with horses"

Future ZOS: "We feel that Orcs are too bland being a mixture of health and stamina. So we've given them a 258 magicka recovery buff to replace the health and replaced the weapon damage with spell damage to reflect the heritage of their most famous magic users like Gul'dan".

They had no reason (that we can see) to make the changes they made. Were there Bosmer/Khajiit players complaining that they felt too similar to Khajiits/Bosmer? Were there Argonians saying "man, I feel so OP having disease and poison resistance like Bosmer do, I sure wish we could lose the poison resistance that multiple quests say we have".

They made a change without soliciting feedback. Received overwhelmingly negative feedback and replied once with "We'll fix it later, but enjoy your nice combat buff until then" but left up use a garbage buff that is mathematically weaker than every other racial damage/healing/recovery buff in the game, but costs 3000 stamina to use.


[edited to remove quote]

Khipu

Grats on your name change
@Wildbloom
Keep reading that thread from time to time wondering if I'll change mine some day. Identity is so very personal for human beings, I think. We only get one chance at it here hehe.

Dalsinthus

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because there is no reason to do so. They already said what they wanted to say about racials weeks ago, twice. Once in their big write up and several times with developer comments on the various changes they made. You don't have to like the changes or agree with them, but they already communicated their reasoning for ALL of the changes, multiple times. There's no need to do it again during ESO Live.

Except there is, because giving sneak detection as a solution to their statement: "since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)" is a poor choice and a mistake on their part and it does not benefit players who enjoyed sneaking in PvE. We've already established the fact that Bosmers were never the top choice for min max players, so we can deduce from it that people who do choose to roll a Bosmer before the patch were for PvE reasons. Hence it is important that we get a passive which also benefits our PvE playstyle.

Having some clarity over the changes can help players understand why they did it. So yes, there is a good reason why a developer should address this change and/or others. I should let you know as well that you really have a bad habit of speaking for ZOS my friend, you're not doing them nor yourself any good at all and your remarks ends up coming across as arrogant.

Be honest: it doesn't matter what they say about the change, you all will not like their answer as long as it doesn't contain the words "we will give Bosmer back their Stealth bonus".

.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

I weighed in pretty extensively about my objections to the stealth passive change. Near the end of the PTS it was clear that ZOS was not going to listen so I've stopped commenting, but I have followed this thread. There are a lot of good reasons to object to these changes lore, gameplay, general usability. These reasons have been explained at length.

It would be nice if ZOS would provide a clearer justification for the change. Their initial comment was logically inconsistent. They characterized stealth as a non-universal mechanic but gave Bosmer stealth detection, which, logically, is an even less universally applicable mechanic. They also stated that they split the stealth passive and gave parts of it to both Khajiit and Bosmer. This statement was false. Khajiit did get part of the old passive, but Bosmer gave none of it. This raises questions about ZOS's competence and attention to this issue.

In the class rep notes we received additional feedback that again did not address the core problem. They acknowledged some of the controversy but their solution was that there will be some changes in the future that make stealth accessible to everyone. So Bosmer players are left to wait for this change, likely through sub-par gear sets if ZOS actually remembers to make these changes. And when the changes do come, they will not be changes that give Bosmer a distinct feel separate from Nords and Altmers and everyone else.

So what could they say? I'm not sure. Maybe something like "We hear that Bosmer players are disappointed by the changes to their stealth passive. Our vision is for the races to be distinct and we want that passive to be exclusive to Khajiit. In return we have given Bosmer players a strong passive linked to dodgeroll. While this may seem like a narrow and limited passive, our internal analysis indicates that the full set of Bosmer passives are as strong or stronger than other comparable options like Orc and Khajiit." I wouldn't be happy with this, but I would be more accepting of it because the argument is based on data they have (and ideally would show us). I would rather have that than false or contradictory statements as well as half hearted pledges to make changes someday that don't address the core problem here.

My 2 cents. I've moved on. I'll either live with it or make my stamblade a Khajiit.

[edited to remove quote]

A_Silverius

Wildbloom wrote: »

I'm upset about this change too, but this thread is getting a ton of negative attention over something that in no way broke the game. It hurt the lore, but is that really what everyone is upset about? 34 pages -just- because lore was twisted a little? Let's calm down, put on some Night Terror gear, and spend our time doing something more productive like asking ZOS to expand stealth in other, friendlier areas, other than going in circles arguing about the same thing every day for the past 2 months.

I think its easiest is to just change the stealth detection to reduced stealth detection as it benefits both PvE and PvP, I imagine PvP players would agree that reduced stealth detection would be more useful.

Seraphayel

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because there is no reason to do so. They already said what they wanted to say about racials weeks ago, twice. Once in their big write up and several times with developer comments on the various changes they made. You don't have to like the changes or agree with them, but they already communicated their reasoning for ALL of the changes, multiple times. There's no need to do it again during ESO Live.

Except there is, because giving sneak detection as a solution to their statement: "since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)" is a poor choice and a mistake on their part and it does not benefit players who enjoyed sneaking in PvE. We've already established the fact that Bosmers were never the top choice for min max players, so we can deduce from it that people who do choose to roll a Bosmer before the patch were for PvE reasons. Hence it is important that we get a passive which also benefits our PvE playstyle.

Having some clarity over the changes can help players understand why they did it. So yes, there is a good reason why a developer should address this change and/or others. I should let you know as well that you really have a bad habit of speaking for ZOS my friend, you're not doing them nor yourself any good at all and your remarks ends up coming across as arrogant.

Be honest: it doesn't matter what they say about the change, you all will not like their answer as long as it doesn't contain the words "we will give Bosmer back their Stealth bonus".

.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

I weighed in pretty extensively about my objections to the stealth passive change. Near the end of the PTS it was clear that ZOS was not going to listen so I've stopped commenting, but I have followed this thread. There are a lot of good reasons to object to these changes lore, gameplay, general usability. These reasons have been explained at length.

It would be nice if ZOS would provide a clearer justification for the change. Their initial comment was logically inconsistent. They characterized stealth as a non-universal mechanic but gave Bosmer stealth detection, which, logically, is an even less universally applicable mechanic. They also stated that they split the stealth passive and gave parts of it to both Khajiit and Bosmer. This statement was false. Khajiit did get part of the old passive, but Bosmer gave none of it. This raises questions about ZOS's competence and attention to this issue.

In the class rep notes we received additional feedback that again did not address the core problem. They acknowledged some of the controversy but their solution was that there will be some changes in the future that make stealth accessible to everyone. So Bosmer players are left to wait for this change, likely through sub-par gear sets if ZOS actually remembers to make these changes. And when the changes do come, they will not be changes that give Bosmer a distinct feel separate from Nords and Altmers and everyone else.

So what could they say? I'm not sure. Maybe something like "We hear that Bosmer players are disappointed by the changes to their stealth passive. Our vision is for the races to be distinct and we want that passive to be exclusive to Khajiit. In return we have given Bosmer players a strong passive linked to dodgeroll. While this may seem like a narrow and limited passive, our internal analysis indicates that the full set of Bosmer passives are as strong or stronger than other comparable options like Orc and Khajiit." I wouldn't be happy with this, but I would be more accepting of it because the argument is based on data they have (and ideally would show us). I would rather have that than false or contradictory statements as well as half hearted pledges to make changes someday that don't address the core problem here.

My 2 cents. I've moved on. I'll either live with it or make my stamblade a Khajiit.

Good post and something I can agree with. Especially the last paragraph.

[edited to remove quote]

Koronach

wedgebert wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

[snip]

It would have to be some amazingly thought out words because a lot of people (especially the ones complaining in here) are here in no small part due to the lore. In lore, Bosmer are thieves and archers and right now we're neither.

People need to look past "Bomser players are just whining about something that won't be fixed" and see it more as "If they're willing to violate the lore that much for Bosmer, am I next?"

Future ZOS: "Sure Nords have had cold resistance for decades, but we feel that doesn't lead to any exciting choices. So now they can just 15% higher and dodge roll 15% farther to better represent the physical trials they grow up experiencing"

Future ZOS: "Redguard having a long history of being elite swordsman, but lots of races use swords. So instead getting a cost reduction on their weapon abilities they'll mount and dismount 50% faster to better reflect their renowned affinity with horses"

Future ZOS: "We feel that Orcs are too bland being a mixture of health and stamina. So we've given them a 258 magicka recovery buff to replace the health and replaced the weapon damage with spell damage to reflect the heritage of their most famous magic users like Gul'dan".

They had no reason (that we can see) to make the changes they made. Were there Bosmer/Khajiit players complaining that they felt too similar to Khajiits/Bosmer? Were there Argonians saying "man, I feel so OP having disease and poison resistance like Bosmer do, I sure wish we could lose the poison resistance that multiple quests say we have".

They made a change without soliciting feedback. Received overwhelmingly negative feedback and replied once with "We'll fix it later, but enjoy your nice combat buff until then" but left up use a garbage buff that is mathematically weaker than every other racial damage/healing/recovery buff in the game, but costs 3000 stamina to use.

That's what has bothered me, they claimed they reviewed the lore and wanted to preserve established lore. They didn't do that or didn't do it well at all.It's been a while since I did the AD quests so I don't know about Bosmer stealth, but Argonian disease immunity and poison resistance is in the damn games lore books and dialogue. The only feedback they seem to take are the top 1% of the players and screw the rest of the 99%. Those top players don't care about race or lore, all they care about is numbers and being the top. That's a bad way to do things if you ask me.

[edited to remove quote]

wedgebert

Wildbloom wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect them to change it back.

Think about that from their point of view. If they patched the 3 yard for stealth back, people would demand more race change tokens so that they could go back to bosmer , then they'd be handing out more free stuff just because we all complained loud enough. And why would it stop there? Other races would ask for racial changes, they'd give out more tokens and now we'd all feel obligated to a race change every now and then, and it'd spiral into a disaster. Or they could not change other races racials and people would be angry that a few bosmer could argue for 34 pages to get a tweak but they can't.

I'm a bosmer. I always have been and I always will be. I've been stealthing around very, very well without the 3 yards post-Wrathstone, scoring the highest rank in my sacraments and heists just about every day since the event started (my fault for tripping on so many damn traps), as well as stealing more than my fair share of goods where the only bounty I get is from missing a pick-pocket.

I haven't done any sacraments since my Bosmer is a thief, not an assassin, but heists are not a good representation of stealth mechanics. There are too many lantern enemies and the time limit is so short that almost all heists are memorization of guard routes and running past them when possible. I sprint as far as I stealth doing them. If there was time to properly stealth though and fewer enemies that ignored stealth, then yes that would be both more fun and a better example of this.

An no one is saying we can't sneak around and steal, it's just that we can do it like the Bosmer are supposed to be able to. Quite a few of us chose Bosmer for those lore reasons and had no reason to expect that such a drastic change would happen.

Wildbloom wrote: »

But as I understand it, this thread is about one thing: change. People don't like change. I didn't like the change at all when it first hit. I didn't even want to log in, I was so bummed out, and I vented in this thread about it more than once. But when I started to play more, I realized that it wasn't as huge of a deal as people are making it out to be. You guys cry "breaking the lore" simply as a viable way to try to make an argument, when it's really about not being able to cope with a negative change to your play-style. It sucks, but I think it's unrealistic for them to give us the 3 yards back, and I think we should put that to rest.

It's not about disliking change. It's about the elimination of a playstyle that the race naturally excels at and has for decades. Lore breaking is a valid reason in and of itself because that's a big part of why we're playing ESO and not a different MMO. We came here to live in an Elder Scrolls world. Screw with the lore too much and it stops becoming that and that will end up driving people away.

Wildbloom wrote: »

What I do think, however, is that stealth will be expanded upon some more in the coming months, possibly with Elsweyr. They have strongly hinted at it recently (mid January, I think it was) and I know I personally can see a lot of ways they can make stealth more fun. How about a trait that procs the window of opportunity for pickpocketing more often? A trait that makes one pick take all 3 items from an npc? A vanish for every class? A passive that, well, reduces the radius you'll be detected in stealth by 3 yards?

Then they should have messed with the races then. And there's not much they can do with stealth with a complete overhaul of how it works. Let's be honest, ES stealth has always been wonky. I can stand right next to roaring fire, but the enemy can't see me because 6m away and I'm invisible out to 5m.

Giving a trait to steal all three times at once would be way overpowered and would never happen. Procing the pickpocket window more often would just be a quality of life trait like forcing locks (something taken by non-thieves who don't want to be bothered). Vanishing isn't stealth, it's invisibility, a different mechanic. And you can't give a 3m stealth bonus in a skill line without taking it away from Khajiit. That's why they had to lower the initial 5m bonus Khajiit had back to 3m. You could literally walk up to a guard's face and steal from him without being seen.

Wildbloom wrote: »

Khajit have a big thing for thieving (hence, their awesome racials) and I don't think it's unrealistic to see some sort of khajit thieving guild in the expansion, or an expansion on legerdemain, or something along those lines now that they've tossed the idea out there. I'm upset about this change too, but this thread is getting a ton of negative attention over something that in no way broke the game. It hurt the lore, but is that really what everyone is upset about? 34 pages -just- because lore was twisted a little? Let's calm down, put on some Night Terror gear, and spend our time doing something more productive like asking ZOS to expand stealth in other, friendlier areas, other than going in circles arguing about the same thing every day for the past 2 months.

Bosmer have an even bigger thing for stealing. Khajiit are good thieves because of their agility. It's not that they have a big thing for stealing as it is a different cultural outlook on the distinction between personal and public property. A Khajiit sees something and will just think "oh, that looks useful, I'll bet the owner won't mind if I use it".

Where as Bosmer know the object they're taking fully belongs to the other person, that's why they're stealing it. It's the whole Rite of Theft that is a big part of their culture. Khajiit have theives, Bosmer are thieves.

Put on Night Terror gear? What if we were already wearing Night Terror? Why not take away the Orc weapon damage bonus and just tell them to use more Glyph's of Weapon Damage?

None of us have any objection to them expanding stealth. However the point of these threads is that we're not happy with what they did to Bosmer. They took our racial identity away and in exchange told us to go PvP more.

NoTimeToWait

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

Is it wrong, that choosing race for a special playstyle (lets be honest, many of us choose Bosmers and Khajiits for their looks and RP merits as well as stealth prowess) and later losing the huge part of the flavor results in such demands without compromise?

While I don't own any Bosmers, I have 10 Khajiits and do sympathize with those people who like Bosmers. I don't see how having racial passive makes the game worse for anyone, and I clearly see how not having this passive makes it worse for many players.

I mean, that I don't feel that I needed distinction in stealth playstyle, when I had to chose between Bosmers and Khajiits as stealth races (and it was never the case). And if ZOS felt, that stealth passive required stealth play in PVP from Bosmer players, they could just remove the damage from stealth bonus and leave only detection reduction passive.

[edited to remove quote]

Dalsinthus

Seraphayel wrote: »

Dalsinthus wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

kirinsosodepub19_ESO wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Because there is no reason to do so. They already said what they wanted to say about racials weeks ago, twice. Once in their big write up and several times with developer comments on the various changes they made. You don't have to like the changes or agree with them, but they already communicated their reasoning for ALL of the changes, multiple times. There's no need to do it again during ESO Live.

Except there is, because giving sneak detection as a solution to their statement: "since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!)" is a poor choice and a mistake on their part and it does not benefit players who enjoyed sneaking in PvE. We've already established the fact that Bosmers were never the top choice for min max players, so we can deduce from it that people who do choose to roll a Bosmer before the patch were for PvE reasons. Hence it is important that we get a passive which also benefits our PvE playstyle.

Having some clarity over the changes can help players understand why they did it. So yes, there is a good reason why a developer should address this change and/or others. I should let you know as well that you really have a bad habit of speaking for ZOS my friend, you're not doing them nor yourself any good at all and your remarks ends up coming across as arrogant.

Be honest: it doesn't matter what they say about the change, you all will not like their answer as long as it doesn't contain the words "we will give Bosmer back their Stealth bonus".

.

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

I weighed in pretty extensively about my objections to the stealth passive change. Near the end of the PTS it was clear that ZOS was not going to listen so I've stopped commenting, but I have followed this thread. There are a lot of good reasons to object to these changes lore, gameplay, general usability. These reasons have been explained at length.

It would be nice if ZOS would provide a clearer justification for the change. Their initial comment was logically inconsistent. They characterized stealth as a non-universal mechanic but gave Bosmer stealth detection, which, logically, is an even less universally applicable mechanic. They also stated that they split the stealth passive and gave parts of it to both Khajiit and Bosmer. This statement was false. Khajiit did get part of the old passive, but Bosmer gave none of it. This raises questions about ZOS's competence and attention to this issue.

In the class rep notes we received additional feedback that again did not address the core problem. They acknowledged some of the controversy but their solution was that there will be some changes in the future that make stealth accessible to everyone. So Bosmer players are left to wait for this change, likely through sub-par gear sets if ZOS actually remembers to make these changes. And when the changes do come, they will not be changes that give Bosmer a distinct feel separate from Nords and Altmers and everyone else.

So what could they say? I'm not sure. Maybe something like "We hear that Bosmer players are disappointed by the changes to their stealth passive. Our vision is for the races to be distinct and we want that passive to be exclusive to Khajiit. In return we have given Bosmer players a strong passive linked to dodgeroll. While this may seem like a narrow and limited passive, our internal analysis indicates that the full set of Bosmer passives are as strong or stronger than other comparable options like Orc and Khajiit." I wouldn't be happy with this, but I would be more accepting of it because the argument is based on data they have (and ideally would show us). I would rather have that than false or contradictory statements as well as half hearted pledges to make changes someday that don't address the core problem here.

My 2 cents. I've moved on. I'll either live with it or make my stamblade a Khajiit.

Good post and something I can agree with. Especially the last paragraph.

Thanks.

I was really salty about the bosmer changes a few weeks ago. It's probably the angriest I have been about anything in game. I built my bosmer knowing it was a weaker option for pve dps (than the old redguard or khajiit) specifically because of stealth and stam regen. I do all content in game and have houses and outfits and build designs based on him being a bosmer. Now I have to decide whether to scrap that history - 4 years of it - for mechanics or live with a set of passives I don't like. He's skill king of stam regen at least.

My saltiness has come way down but I still don't like it. I've also lost faith in ZOS for their unwillingness to listen to feedback. But it is what it is and there is no reason to let it make me so angry. I also question the value of spending my time on the forums giving feedback when I have yet to see my feedback captured in game updates.

[edited to remove quote]

wedgebert

Dalsinthus wrote: »

My saltiness has come way down but I still don't like it. I've also lost faith in ZOS for their unwillingness to listen to feedback. But it is what it is and there is no reason to let it make me so angry. I also question the value of spending my time on the forums giving feedback when I have yet to see my feedback captured in game updates.

I don't want to be this angry either. I like the game overall, but this change has really killed my desire to play for any stretch of time. For the first week all I did was log in and do crafting writs and upgrade my mount. Even things like dungeons and trials were hard to get motivated for even though stealth had no use there.

I'm slowly getting back into playing, but it's difficult. A big part of my anger is not the actual changes themselves, but more the mindset behind them. It's bad game design and does not give me hope for the future. It's why I finally quit WoW and moved to ESO after the terribleness of the latest expansion BFA.

Yes, you can get used to bad changes. But when the developers start doubling down on bad decisions while trying to pass them off as great for the players, well it doesn't bode well for the future.

That I think is where a lot of the slow burning anger comes from.

Wildbloom

wedgebert wrote: »

Wildbloom wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect them to change it back.

Think about that from their point of view. If they patched the 3 yard for stealth back, people would demand more race change tokens so that they could go back to bosmer , then they'd be handing out more free stuff just because we all complained loud enough. And why would it stop there? Other races would ask for racial changes, they'd give out more tokens and now we'd all feel obligated to a race change every now and then, and it'd spiral into a disaster. Or they could not change other races racials and people would be angry that a few bosmer could argue for 34 pages to get a tweak but they can't.

I'm a bosmer. I always have been and I always will be. I've been stealthing around very, very well without the 3 yards post-Wrathstone, scoring the highest rank in my sacraments and heists just about every day since the event started (my fault for tripping on so many damn traps), as well as stealing more than my fair share of goods where the only bounty I get is from missing a pick-pocket.

I haven't done any sacraments since my Bosmer is a thief, not an assassin, but heists are not a good representation of stealth mechanics. There are too many lantern enemies and the time limit is so short that almost all heists are memorization of guard routes and running past them when possible. I sprint as far as I stealth doing them. If there was time to properly stealth though and fewer enemies that ignored stealth, then yes that would be both more fun and a better example of this.

An no one is saying we can't sneak around and steal, it's just that we can do it like the Bosmer are supposed to be able to. Quite a few of us chose Bosmer for those lore reasons and had no reason to expect that such a drastic change would happen.

Wildbloom wrote: »

But as I understand it, this thread is about one thing: change. People don't like change. I didn't like the change at all when it first hit. I didn't even want to log in, I was so bummed out, and I vented in this thread about it more than once. But when I started to play more, I realized that it wasn't as huge of a deal as people are making it out to be. You guys cry "breaking the lore" simply as a viable way to try to make an argument, when it's really about not being able to cope with a negative change to your play-style. It sucks, but I think it's unrealistic for them to give us the 3 yards back, and I think we should put that to rest.

It's not about disliking change. It's about the elimination of a playstyle that the race naturally excels at and has for decades. Lore breaking is a valid reason in and of itself because that's a big part of why we're playing ESO and not a different MMO. We came here to live in an Elder Scrolls world. Screw with the lore too much and it stops becoming that and that will end up driving people away.

Wildbloom wrote: »

What I do think, however, is that stealth will be expanded upon some more in the coming months, possibly with Elsweyr. They have strongly hinted at it recently (mid January, I think it was) and I know I personally can see a lot of ways they can make stealth more fun. How about a trait that procs the window of opportunity for pickpocketing more often? A trait that makes one pick take all 3 items from an npc? A vanish for every class? A passive that, well, reduces the radius you'll be detected in stealth by 3 yards?

Then they should have messed with the races then. And there's not much they can do with stealth with a complete overhaul of how it works. Let's be honest, ES stealth has always been wonky. I can stand right next to roaring fire, but the enemy can't see me because 6m away and I'm invisible out to 5m.

Giving a trait to steal all three times at once would be way overpowered and would never happen. Procing the pickpocket window more often would just be a quality of life trait like forcing locks (something taken by non-thieves who don't want to be bothered). Vanishing isn't stealth, it's invisibility, a different mechanic. And you can't give a 3m stealth bonus in a skill line without taking it away from Khajiit. That's why they had to lower the initial 5m bonus Khajiit had back to 3m. You could literally walk up to a guard's face and steal from him without being seen.

Wildbloom wrote: »

Khajit have a big thing for thieving (hence, their awesome racials) and I don't think it's unrealistic to see some sort of khajit thieving guild in the expansion, or an expansion on legerdemain, or something along those lines now that they've tossed the idea out there. I'm upset about this change too, but this thread is getting a ton of negative attention over something that in no way broke the game. It hurt the lore, but is that really what everyone is upset about? 34 pages -just- because lore was twisted a little? Let's calm down, put on some Night Terror gear, and spend our time doing something more productive like asking ZOS to expand stealth in other, friendlier areas, other than going in circles arguing about the same thing every day for the past 2 months.

Bosmer have an even bigger thing for stealing. Khajiit are good thieves because of their agility. It's not that they have a big thing for stealing as it is a different cultural outlook on the distinction between personal and public property. A Khajiit sees something and will just think "oh, that looks useful, I'll bet the owner won't mind if I use it".

Where as Bosmer know the object they're taking fully belongs to the other person, that's why they're stealing it. It's the whole Rite of Theft that is a big part of their culture. Khajiit have theives, Bosmer are thieves.

Put on Night Terror gear? What if we were already wearing Night Terror? Why not take away the Orc weapon damage bonus and just tell them to use more Glyph's of Weapon Damage?

None of us have any objection to them expanding stealth. However the point of these threads is that we're not happy with what they did to Bosmer. They took our racial identity away and in exchange told us to go PvP more.

Oh, those were just random suggestions floating in my head. I'm sure ZOS/the community could think of something better if they put their minds to it. Your other arguments are fair, but it's nothing that hasn't been said before, but I still appreciate the reply.

And I'm not saying don't argue. I did plenty of it about two weeks ago. My main point is that it's gone on pretty loudly for months now over something that isn't the end of the world. I picked bosmer because of the stealth bonus, so of course I was upset when it was taken away, but I adapted. I do see your points though, making a steathly, thiefy race suddenly un-stealthy doesn't make much sense, and I can get behind it the argument any day of the week. But if every race got some buffs to thieving to the point where it was more or less trivial while khajit still have an edge, I would be upset but I wont lose my head over it.

Yes it sucks that we lost something important to our lore, but we may have to accept that, in this instance of Elder Scrolls, bosmer's niche in the stealthy category is gonna be a crappy stealth detection trait. I don't like it, you don't like it, I bet you anything some people at ZOS don't even like it, but it would be too big of a deal to change at this point.

Jaraal

Koronach wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

I'm not trying to fix this thread though. I am here to offer another opinion, one that might be disliked by the majority of posters here. As I said, I like to call out some statements that are just exaggerated or false.

Another question: if ZOS is going to say something about it, some very well-thought-out words, and they follow their reasoning of Bosmer losing stealth, will it satisfy you (all)? Or will this thread go on until the day Bosmer get their stealth bonus back?

It would have to be some amazingly thought out words because a lot of people (especially the ones complaining in here) are here in no small part due to the lore. In lore, Bosmer are thieves and archers and right now we're neither.

People need to look past "Bomser players are just whining about something that won't be fixed" and see it more as "If they're willing to violate the lore that much for Bosmer, am I next?"

Future ZOS: "Sure Nords have had cold resistance for decades, but we feel that doesn't lead to any exciting choices. So now they can just 15% higher and dodge roll 15% farther to better represent the physical trials they grow up experiencing"

Future ZOS: "Redguard having a long history of being elite swordsman, but lots of races use swords. So instead getting a cost reduction on their weapon abilities they'll mount and dismount 50% faster to better reflect their renowned affinity with horses"

Future ZOS: "We feel that Orcs are too bland being a mixture of health and stamina. So we've given them a 258 magicka recovery buff to replace the health and replaced the weapon damage with spell damage to reflect the heritage of their most famous magic users like Gul'dan".

They had no reason (that we can see) to make the changes they made. Were there Bosmer/Khajiit players complaining that they felt too similar to Khajiits/Bosmer? Were there Argonians saying "man, I feel so OP having disease and poison resistance like Bosmer do, I sure wish we could lose the poison resistance that multiple quests say we have".

They made a change without soliciting feedback. Received overwhelmingly negative feedback and replied once with "We'll fix it later, but enjoy your nice combat buff until then" but left up use a garbage buff that is mathematically weaker than every other racial damage/healing/recovery buff in the game, but costs 3000 stamina to use.

That's what has bothered me, they claimed they reviewed the lore and wanted to preserve established lore. They didn't do that or didn't do it well at all.It's been a while since I did the AD quests so I don't know about Bosmer stealth, but Argonian disease immunity and poison resistance is in the damn games lore books and dialogue. The only feedback they seem to take are the top 1% of the players and screw the rest of the 99%. Those top players don't care about race or lore, all they care about is numbers and being the top. That's a bad way to do things if you ask me.

This post is spot on. All these changes are designed for PvP, to satisfy elite min/maxers, with virtually no regard for the average casual PvEer. And they are changing established lore so much that even the wording of many quests makes no sense. Are they really going to go rewrite some of these quests, because some PvPers complained about the 10% damage bonus from stealth? So instead of removing the damage bonus, they scrapped the whole passive because it was easier, and then threw some stuff together to cover it up.

So why should we be happy about it and move on? That doesn't make it right, or logical. Maybe they should add ostrich form to the passive. +50 to burying your head in the sand!

KMarble

wedgebert wrote: »

And you can't give a 3m stealth bonus in a skill line without taking it away from Khajiit. That's why they had to lower the initial 5m bonus Khajiit had back to 3m. You could literally walk up to a guard's face and steal from him without being seen.

This is the part of their explanation that gets me really frustrated. The devs created a random rule that no race shall have the same racial skills as another race and then broke the self-imposed rule with a few races while using it as justification for bad decisions for other races.

I'm fine with them setting rules, it's their world and if I want to remain in it, I have to play by their rules. What I don't like is that they can move the goal posts and then turn around and say (paraphrasing): "we'll give everybody some kind of stealth improvement, so please stop complaining about our inconsistency, ktxbai".

I also don't understand the all or nothing attitude that was only applied to certain races - Khajiit has stealth, so Bosmer can't have any. Bosmer is resistant to poison, so Argonian can't have any - while other races had different numbers applied to the same (or very similar) racial skill.

I'd also like to point out that the statement of "giving stealth back to Bosmer (and every other race) outside of racial skills" is unlikely to happen/will not get Bosmers back to 3m.
If EVERY race will, in the future, have access to extra stealth by whatever means, that implies that Khajiits will have access to it too.

They had to change Khajiit's range back when people began to test on PTS because the original 5m given to them was too much. If I were to believe the devs will implement a way to give what Bosmers lost - 3m - to all races, Khajiits would have their stealth go up to 6m.

wedgebert

A_Silverius wrote: »

Food for thought: Imagine if no one had given their feedback or "demanded", as you so aptly put, improvements to the game in its original state on day 1 release. Would ESO still be around or be as successful as it was today? I imagine, not.

Also, we've been making this criticism since the changes were announced on PTS. If we'd simply had said "well those changes are terrible, oh well" then we'd have the same people in here saying "well you should have spoken up before they went live!"

Cundu_Ertur

Wildbloom wrote: »

I don't think it's realistic to expect them to change it back.

Think about that from their point of view. If they patched the 3 yard for stealth back, people would demand more race change tokens so that they could go back to bosmer , then they'd be handing out more free stuff just because we all complained loud enough. And why would it stop there? Other races would ask for racial changes, they'd give out more tokens and now we'd all feel obligated to a race change every now and then, and it'd spiral into a disaster. Or they could not change other races racials and people would be angry that a few bosmer could argue for 34 pages to get a tweak but they can't.

I'm a bosmer. I always have been and I always will be. I've been stealthing around very, very well without the 3 yards post-Wrathstone, scoring the highest rank in my sacraments and heists just about every day since the event started (my fault for tripping on so many damn traps), as well as stealing more than my fair share of goods where the only bounty I get is from missing a pick-pocket.

But as I understand it, this thread is about one thing: change. People don't like change. I didn't like the change at all when it first hit. I didn't even want to log in, I was so bummed out, and I vented in this thread about it more than once. But when I started to play more, I realized that it wasn't as huge of a deal as people are making it out to be. You guys cry "breaking the lore" simply as a viable way to try to make an argument, when it's really about not being able to cope with a negative change to your play-style. It sucks, but I think it's unrealistic for them to give us the 3 yards back, and I think we should put that to rest.

What I do think, however, is that stealth will be expanded upon some more in the coming months, possibly with Elsweyr. They have strongly hinted at it recently (mid January, I think it was) and I know I personally can see a lot of ways they can make stealth more fun. How about a trait that procs the window of opportunity for pickpocketing more often? A trait that makes one pick take all 3 items from an npc? A vanish for every class? A passive that, well, reduces the radius you'll be detected in stealth by 3 yards?

Khajit have a big thing for thieving (hence, their awesome racials) and I don't think it's unrealistic to see some sort of khajit thieving guild in the expansion, or an expansion on legerdemain, or something along those lines now that they've tossed the idea out there. I'm upset about this change too, but this thread is getting a ton of negative attention over something that in no way broke the game. It hurt the lore, but is that really what everyone is upset about? 34 pages -just- because lore was twisted a little? Let's calm down, put on some Night Terror gear, and spend our time doing something more productive like asking ZOS to expand stealth in other, friendlier areas, other than going in circles arguing about the same thing every day for the past 2 months.

So you're perfectly ok if tomorrow all Orcs are beautiful fairy creatures with butterfly wings who cast flower magic and who take the crown for the only remaining thing Bosmer are good at -- being cute? Altmer are hulking sword-swinging, rude and uncultured barbarians? Because that's what has happened to the Bosmer. The core of their racial identity -- Pact, Archery, Stealth -- has been completely stripped away.

Yes, Khajiit have always been thieves. You know who else have always been thieves? Bosmer. For 25 years. We aren't asking for anything new. We are asking that the legacy of the past 25 years be preserved, instead of this lore-breaking garbage. Not twisting. Not tweaking. BREAKING. This is contradictory to all aspects of Bosmer lore. And, as @wedgebert has repeatedly shown it's a garbage passive even when just looking at the numbers.

KMarble

I feel bad posting this since I'm new to the forum, but I'd like to gently remind people to not stray too far away from the reason this thread exists: Bosmer losing stealth passive.

There is another saying in my country (according to my husband, we have too many): when one doesn't want, two don't fight. Although I do appreciate the bumps, we have to accept that some people will disagree with the general opinion stated in this thread. It is their right to state they opinion, but IMO, it isn't our job to convince them to change their POV.

A_Silverius

KMarble wrote: »

I feel bad posting this since I'm new to the forum, but I'd like to gently remind people to not stray too far away from the reason this thread exists: Bosmer losing stealth passive.

There is another saying in my country (according to my husband, we have too many): when one doesn't want, two don't fight. Although I do appreciate the bumps, we have to accept that some people will disagree with the general opinion stated in this thread. It is their right to state they opinion, but IMO, it isn't our job to convince them to change their POV.

Thanks KMarble you're right, we should most definitely stay on topic.

Truthsnark

Why are people still responding to Seraphayel? No minds will be changed. Each reply only serves to assist in their goal of derailing this thread. Let's stick to the problem at hand.

Bosmer want their stealth back for the multiple reasons given in this thread.

We want ZOS to more concretely address their reasoning behind the racial changes because they are applied inconsistently and directly contradict themselves in different applications, and particularly with regards to their stated goal of making lore-friendly changes, yet stripping abilities long-established in lore from certain races (Bosmer, Argonians).

We also want ZOS to directly state what their plans are regarding stealth and the timeline for that to happen.

Basically, we just want acknowledgment that we are unhappy with what was done here and that they hear us. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Tigerseye

max_only wrote: »

Something a guildmate pointed out to me (who isn’t a Bosmer and isn’t interested in ever being one) is that we have to spend Stamina doing an ACTION in order to get our PASSIVE.

I said that it irked me yes, but so many rolypoly players love it, I’d get no support if I called for change. If it was me, I’d have the extra penetration on all the time, no roll dodge required. But I’ve hesitated to bring it up and muddy the waters.

No, you're absolutely right.

I like rolling around, but it would be unrealistic to try to build around the assumption that you will be doing that, all the time, to get the extra penetration.

It's not always possible, or practical, to do so.

max_only

Truthsnark wrote: »

Why are people still responding to Seraphayel? No minds will be changed. Each reply only serves to assist in their goal of derailing this thread. Let's stick to the problem at hand.

Bosmer want their stealth back for the multiple reasons given in this thread.

We want ZOS to more concretely address their reasoning behind the racial changes because they are applied inconsistently and directly contradict themselves in different applications, and particularly with regards to their stated goal of making lore-friendly changes, yet stripping abilities long-established in lore from certain races (Bosmer, Argonians).

We also want ZOS to directly state what their plans are regarding stealth and the timeline for that to happen.

Basically, we just want acknowledgment that we are unhappy with what was done here and that they hear us. I don't think that's too much to ask.

From other posts in the forums, I’ve found this user can actually be reasonable. It’s a mystery why this thread sticks in their craw.

anadandy

Update on Bethesda GamePlay days for those who were thinking of going to Boston

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55909

Summary: 1:30-9PM Friday and Saturday at the pub on Summer Street (right nextt o con center). No PAX badge needed.

BlueRaven

anadandy wrote: »

Update on Bethesda GamePlay days for those who were thinking of going to Boston

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55909

Summary: 1:30-9PM Friday and Saturday at the pub on Summer Street (right nextt o con center). No PAX badge needed.

Thanks!

I am definitely planning on going.

My goals are;

Objective 1) See what has changed (if anything) on the Bosmer passives.

Objective 2) See if they added a new way to improve stealth.

Objective 3) Check out necromancer class. (I know this is not related to what we are talking about in this thread, but I am curious.)

Objective 4) See what I can find out from any reps there about bosmers and stealth.

Objective 5) See if I can snag any loot to give away to my guild(s).

max_only

Tigerseye wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Something a guildmate pointed out to me (who isn’t a Bosmer and isn’t interested in ever being one) is that we have to spend Stamina doing an ACTION in order to get our PASSIVE.

I said that it irked me yes, but so many rolypoly players love it, I’d get no support if I called for change. If it was me, I’d have the extra penetration on all the time, no roll dodge required. But I’ve hesitated to bring it up and muddy the waters.

No, you're absolutely right.

I like rolling around, but it would be unrealistic to try to build around the assumption that you will be doing that, all the time, to get the extra penetration.

It's not always possible, or practical, to do so.

Yes I was tanking the new dungeon and rolling right off the platform was a huge concern for all of us.

Tasear

max_only wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Eiron77 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

A_Silverius wrote: »

*snip*

Because that's not what we want, we want a space (this thread) to give our feedback until ZOS does something about it.

*snip*

So why are you telling us to stop then? Saying "but it's time to move on and get over it" "Get used to your new Bosmer" does not get people to understand your opinion and is hardly feedback for ZOS that you're in favour for the new changes to Bosmer. It's a very rude way to tell us that our opinions do not matter and a crude attempt at silencing it.

Again, I am not silencing anything. You can post about this topic as much as you want as it's your right to do so. If you rate this as feedback, it's too. I don't want to be rude when I say "move on".

Based on previous experiences I just know that this thread will get you nowhere and "until ZOS does something about it" is a very, very entitled statement. ZOS does not have to do anything about it just to please you. You might think they do but they don't. This is the biggest problem here in this thread. Just because you might be right in your heads about this you are not necessarily right in the bigger picture or in general.

Again, I say follow your own advice and move on. You're not adding anything we're not already aware of and to think otherwise only comes across as condescending.

I think I'll follow this advice and leave this topic were it belongs, in the past. So best of luck with it.

Nevertheless, your complaints are not adding anything you're not already aware of either.

Well thanks for bumping it as long as you did. I appreciate it.

Also, what you say makes sense. Radical acceptance of reality is the first step in coping with change. That is actual a psychological phenomenon. AND, not but (the word but is dismissive), and invalidation of other people is understandably perceived negatively. You may not have meant to be rude, and still it was received that way, which is valid.

It is my belief that only those who actually like Zos and this game are the ones who participate. If I hated Zos and this game and had zero faith in them then I wouldn’t be continuing this thread. I would just quit. I know that Zos can change, that nothing is written in rubedite and it’s my continued faith in Zos that gives me the energy to persist. I’m passionate about this game or else I wouldn’t make the time to study, test, research, respond etc.

Let us continue to have faith.

zyk

I think most ZOS devs are probably very talented, but I have no faith left in ZOS leadership.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]