Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

Ratzkifal

I'm going to try out my virtually invisible Khajiit on it but probably won't end up doing a lot of the event. The black indrik fits none of my characters and I haven't seen anything that would make it worth while otherwise.

MartiniDaniels

Same as in February I'll just do it on my dunmer magblade. While you guys removed points from hunter's eye after racial changes, I removed points from legerdemain on my bosmer. For me non-cloak stealth in this game is dead.

thegreatme

TokenIntellect wrote: »

The irony is that ZOS is going ahead with Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood event because the last two Midyear Mahems were such a mess. It would seem like over 2500 replies isn't enough to make ZOS aware they have a problem of their own making that will negatively impact the replacement event. All I know is that I already hated doing heists when my Bosmer NB was still stealthy... now?

But didn't you know? This is clearly a sign that ZoS has hated PvPers all along! We're back on the favorites list, according to the PvPer outrage! ZoS only cares about us PvEers, who would'a thunk?

max_only

Seraphayel wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

How is this thread still going? 83 pages and 4 months later...

The same handful of people winding themselves up over and over again, with the same arguments for months now.

The saddest thing is ZOS moved on and doesn’t care the slightest, that’s why this is so pointless. They’re not even acknowledging it.

It’s disingenuous to say it’s the same handful of people. We’ve had new posters who just realized the change in the past couple days.

Jaraal wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

Jaraal

max_only wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

I tried to pick his pockets, but all he had on him was lint and a note from his mother reminding him to wash behind his ears and put on clean underwear before going into battle.

Ratzkifal

Jaraal wrote: »

Yeah my Bosmer will stay retired. Wasn't looking forward to getting more Sithis' Touch gear to decon, anyway. Most likely the least desirable set in the game.

Just compared TTC prices to the Way of the Air set. They are pretty even overall, but the one example I looked at had Sithis' Touch slightly cheaper.

Sylvermynx

Eh.... I just have no use for TG or DB - never have had, in any TES game. I'm going to be buying berries. Good thing husband's fine with what I spend on this game.

I'm perfectly happy they chose to "forego" MM this year. I wouldn't have messed with it anyway, and it's nice it's not in my face (unlike the last time....)

HowTaoBrownCow

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Eh.... I just have no use for TG or DB - never have had, in any TES game.

I feel much the same way, but there are a couple of exceptions. The TG story and characters are pretty good, and worth doing for the entertainment (and the skill points) even if you never do another bit of thievery outside of it. Get in, enjoy the dialogue, and get out. :-)

The Dark Brotherhood I generally think of the way that I think of the Worm Cult: when you find them, you stamp them out quickly and go on with your life having made the world a better place. But... they have 2 really good passive skills that are worth having. The first one, the Blade of Woe, you get the second you join, and it lets you sneak up on someone and kill them instantly without having to engage them in a full on battle and sometimes without even breaking stealth -- super useful for a stealth play, and very immersive.

The second one, Shadow Rider, reduces your aggro radius while mounted by 50%, which is *really* great when riding about the countryside. I've ridden right past the nose of enemies and they never stirred, it's awsome! (I really have no idea why being an assassin would make you a better equestrian, but there you are.)

Unfortunately, you don't get Shadow Rider until DB level 7, which means you'll have to do a lot of killing to get there. I don't have any evil characters, so I have to add some headcanon: the backstory I use is that Razum-dar wants me to go undercover with the DB to figure out what’s going on in the Gold Coast, and that after I’m done with that we’re going to raid the place and break them up for good. (Quite plausible, since he's asked me to go undercover before.) So, I go through the story, kill some people who actually do deserve killing, the story completes by DB level 8, and I walk away knowing that I've fixed some stuff and also that we're going to burn the place out after I leave. And, while leveling up the DB skill line, I don't take on any Sacraments (or any of the smaller contracts that you can do many times a day) when they sound like I'm killing innocents or when I can't add some headcanon to justify it. ("Kill any 3 citizens in Auridon? Raz, do we know any vile miscreants in Auridon who have managed to escape justice? Any slavers in Stonefalls? Skooma-pushers in Bangkorai? Great, those are the ones that I'm choosing.")

That may still not be your thing, but if you feel at all on the fence, that's how I get through it to get the passives. And you can even do it with our newly clumsy Bosmers. I just finally took my Bosmer character through it a month ago without any trouble -- and that's how I learned that he'd been clumsified, as my stealth attempts were failing more often than I was expecting -- but it generally went off without a hitch. Fortunately, you don't even need stealth to do the Heists and Sacraments. My 70+ year old mother ran through the DB line (just once, holding her nose in distaste the whole way) with her Altmer Templar, and she didn't even bother trying stealth, she just ran through killing everything in her path like it was a random delve. You don't get as many rewards or TG/DB experience points that way, but you still make progress and you'd still get the event tickets.

anadandy

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

That's totally not broken. And who could have guessed that would happen?! Certainly not all those people that pointed it out during the PTS cycle! At least it's better than two races having normal stealth... *eyeroll*

Jaraal

anadandy wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

That's totally not broken. And who could have guessed that would happen?! Certainly not all those people that pointed it out during the PTS cycle! At least it's better than two races having normal stealth... *eyeroll*

Yeah, you have to question their definition of "balance." Balance to me would have been doubling the number of stealthy races, rather than narrowing it down to just one. But what do I know?

Cundu_Ertur

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

That's totally not broken. And who could have guessed that would happen?! Certainly not all those people that pointed it out during the PTS cycle! At least it's better than two races having normal stealth... *eyeroll*

Yeah, you have to question their definition of "balance." Balance to me would have been doubling the number of stealthy races, rather than narrowing it down to just one. But what do I know?

If only someone had brought that up during PTS... Oh wait, we did. Repeatedly.

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

anadandy wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

That picture is.... enraging LOL

That's totally not broken. And who could have guessed that would happen?! Certainly not all those people that pointed it out during the PTS cycle! At least it's better than two races having normal stealth... *eyeroll*

Yeah, you have to question their definition of "balance." Balance to me would have been doubling the number of stealthy races, rather than narrowing it down to just one. But what do I know?

If only someone had brought that up during PTS... Oh wait, we did. Repeatedly.

Didn't they reduce the detection radius bonus of the Khajiit as a result of that?

Cundu_Ertur

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

Cundu_Ertur

So stealth is simultaneously useless RP fluff and too powerful?

BlueRaven

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

I don’t understand. There is multiple stam races. Multiple magicka races. Multiple races that are good for tanking.

Why not multiple stealth races?

DreadDaedroth

Zos is a bit obsessed by unicity at the moment, I don't understand why though, unicity is not indicator of quality and plus the different playble races are distinct enough even if they share similar bonus.

Jaraal

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Zos is a bit obsessed by unicity at the moment, I don't understand why though, unicity is not indicator of quality and plus the different playble races are distinct enough even if they share similar bonus.

Many of us have speculated that it was a planned effort to make Khajiit more attractive ahead of the Khajiit chapter release. Most of us have resisted race changing the Bosmer characters we have grown attached to, but many have also used the race change tokens and are embracing their new kitties as they frolic, murder, and steal in their recently available homeland. Some have even turned to necromancy, and are bashing their way to new Alliance ranks as we speak!

The ZOS marketing machine is rolling along at full speed! Bugs, lore, and lag be damned..... they will hit their sales goals at all costs!

Ogou

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

So stealth is simultaneously useless RP fluff and too powerful?

How did you get that from what I said?

Ogou

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

I don’t understand. There is multiple stam races. Multiple magicka races. Multiple races that are good for tanking.

Why not multiple stealth races?

I never said you can't. But how would having multiple stealthy races help out with the goals that ZOS had set out to accomplish?

Ogou

Jaraal wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Zos is a bit obsessed by unicity at the moment, I don't understand why though, unicity is not indicator of quality and plus the different playble races are distinct enough even if they share similar bonus.

Many of us have speculated that it was a planned effort to make Khajiit more attractive ahead of the Khajiit chapter release. Most of us have resisted race changing the Bosmer characters we have grown attached to, but many have also used the race change tokens and are embracing their new kitties as they frolic, murder, and steal in their recently available homeland. Some have even turned to necromancy, and are bashing their way to new Alliance ranks as we speak!

The ZOS marketing machine is rolling along at full speed! Bugs, lore, and lag be damned..... they will hit their sales goals at all costs!

If that was the reason they wouldn't have nerfed the Khajiit crit chance.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

Yeah, like they actually cared about any of those fake goals they set. Like the preservation of established lore, that rings a bell. Yeah epic job right there, or open up races for more roles. Yeah sure big epic fail that's why my race isn't even accepted as healers in core trial groups when we are a healing race.

BlueRaven

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

I don’t understand. There is multiple stam races. Multiple magicka races. Multiple races that are good for tanking.

Why not multiple stealth races?

I never said you can't. But how would having multiple stealthy races help out with the goals that ZOS had set out to accomplish?

Well what was it they wanted to accomplish?

Stay within the lore? Well they failed that on multiple races. (Orcs, High Elves, Wood Elves, Argonians, Nords...)

Make each race unique? Well apparently there is multiple races good for tanking, magicka, etc. So fail again?

I am being facetious on that second one obviously, but the point is why is it ok to have multiple races good at say stamina combat, but draw the line at bonuses to stealth? They could have given Kahjits and Bosmer's different bonuses to stealth (detect radius, speed, etc.) but they did not.
They DID give imperials a slight boost to stealth though (reduced stamina cost). So if they can do that for imperials why not to Bosmers as well? Or am I missing something in the lore that says Imperials are better at stealth than wood elves. (Don't bother looking for it, it does not exist. I am still being facetious. )

I feel these changes were really lazily done. Or at best, made by some person who has no clue what the lore is, nor cares.

MartiniDaniels

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Zos is a bit obsessed by unicity at the moment, I don't understand why though, unicity is not indicator of quality and plus the different playble races are distinct enough even if they share similar bonus.

Many of us have speculated that it was a planned effort to make Khajiit more attractive ahead of the Khajiit chapter release. Most of us have resisted race changing the Bosmer characters we have grown attached to, but many have also used the race change tokens and are embracing their new kitties as they frolic, murder, and steal in their recently available homeland. Some have even turned to necromancy, and are bashing their way to new Alliance ranks as we speak!

The ZOS marketing machine is rolling along at full speed! Bugs, lore, and lag be damned..... they will hit their sales goals at all costs!

If that was the reason they wouldn't have nerfed the Khajiit crit chance.

They replaced crit chance with crit damage because in PVP crit damage is more valuable fro high crit builds (because base crit is cut by impen and so impact of lower piece in equation is higher), while in PVE group content dps is comparable. But overall khajiit has a big load of passives, they are not especially good for min-maxing but from the newbie point they may look very impressive. Overall, racial passives were changed:
1. PVP balancing
2. Enforce sales of adventurer pack via buffing DC races and given free tokens
3. Make khajiit a good if not best race for overland content, so new players as khajiits in khajjit land will feel comfortable.

Ogou

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

Yeah, like they actually cared about any of those fake goals they set. Like the preservation of established lore, that rings a bell. Yeah epic job right there, or open up races for more roles. Yeah sure big epic fail that's why my race isn't even accepted as healers in core trial groups when we are a healing race.

And that means ZOS should have made 4 stealthy races because?

Ogou

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

I don’t understand. There is multiple stam races. Multiple magicka races. Multiple races that are good for tanking.

Why not multiple stealth races?

I never said you can't. But how would having multiple stealthy races help out with the goals that ZOS had set out to accomplish?

Well what was it they wanted to accomplish?

Stay within the lore? Well they failed that on multiple races. (Orcs, High Elves, Wood Elves, Argonians, Nords...)

Make each race unique? Well apparently there is multiple races good for tanking, magicka, etc. So fail again?

I am being facetious on that second one obviously, but the point is why is it ok to have multiple races good at say stamina combat, but draw the line at bonuses to stealth? They could have given Kahjits and Bosmer's different bonuses to stealth (detect radius, speed, etc.) but they did not.
They DID give imperials a slight boost to stealth though (reduced stamina cost). So if they can do that for imperials why not to Bosmers as well? Or am I missing something in the lore that says Imperials are better at stealth than wood elves. (Don't bother looking for it, it does not exist. I am still being facetious. )

I feel these changes were really lazily done. Or at best, made by some person who has no clue what the lore is, nor cares.

They definitely could have. I never said anything about that. My question was purely about the proposed solution of having 4 stealthy races instead of 2.

MLGProPlayer

I bet ZOS blocked OP so they don't have to see this thread when it gets bumped.

The best way to deal with a problem is to ignore it!

BlueRaven

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

Yeah, like they actually cared about any of those fake goals they set. Like the preservation of established lore, that rings a bell. Yeah epic job right there, or open up races for more roles. Yeah sure big epic fail that's why my race isn't even accepted as healers in core trial groups when we are a healing race.

And that means ZOS should have made 4 stealthy races because?

Because in Skyrim there were four races with starting bonuses to stealth (I believe, I am away from my computer.) Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Kahjits, and Argonians. All have a rich history of the use of stealth.

It would have opened up stealth game play to more races.

Koronach

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

That much they did do, but they still took the number of stealthy races down from 2 to 1; we had suggested several times that they boost the number from 2 to 4.

Why would they do that though? That wouldn't help any of their goals? Plus, wouldn't that cause the other races to be overloaded in terms of racial passives?

Yeah, like they actually cared about any of those fake goals they set. Like the preservation of established lore, that rings a bell. Yeah epic job right there, or open up races for more roles. Yeah sure big epic fail that's why my race isn't even accepted as healers in core trial groups when we are a healing race.

And that means ZOS should have made 4 stealthy races because?

No but the way you said sounded like they had goals to begin with.

Ogou

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

DreadDaedroth wrote: »

Zos is a bit obsessed by unicity at the moment, I don't understand why though, unicity is not indicator of quality and plus the different playble races are distinct enough even if they share similar bonus.

Many of us have speculated that it was a planned effort to make Khajiit more attractive ahead of the Khajiit chapter release. Most of us have resisted race changing the Bosmer characters we have grown attached to, but many have also used the race change tokens and are embracing their new kitties as they frolic, murder, and steal in their recently available homeland. Some have even turned to necromancy, and are bashing their way to new Alliance ranks as we speak!

The ZOS marketing machine is rolling along at full speed! Bugs, lore, and lag be damned..... they will hit their sales goals at all costs!

If that was the reason they wouldn't have nerfed the Khajiit crit chance.

They replaced crit chance with crit damage because in PVP crit damage is more valuable fro high crit builds (because base crit is cut by impen and so impact of lower piece in equation is higher), while in PVE group content dps is comparable. But overall khajiit has a big load of passives, they are not especially good for min-maxing but from the newbie point they may look very impressive. Overall, racial passives were changed:
1. PVP balancing
2. Enforce sales of adventurer pack via buffing DC races and given free tokens
3. Make khajiit a good if not best race for overland content, so new players as khajiits in khajjit land will feel comfortable.

They changed the crit chance to crit damage because it was too strong in PvE. Added with the buff to the Shadow mundus stone Khajiit would have been either the best or the second best as both PvE stamina and magicka DPS. If their goal was making Khajiit the best for overland content they wouldn't have removed the crit chance.
From the newbie point of view an orc would look a lot more attractive.