Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

BlueRaven · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Bosmer:

Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.

Imperial:

Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.

What are you expecting testing to find?

Bosmer aslo have

Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310. Gain immunity to the Poisoned status effect.

So it really boils down to what is better for sneaking

258 stamina recovery (plus modifiers) or 3% sneak reduction.

But one of the big points is that even if the stamina recovery is better, it still means that Imperials have a direct bonus to stealth while Bosmer are only getting it because they have a different bonus that just happens to benefit stealth. If they decided to change how stamina recovery works while sneak, Bosmer could easily lose that as well.

I may be mistaken on the mechanics of it, but I believe you do NOT get Stamina recovery while moving in stealth.

So if an Imperial and Bosmer have the exact same stamina, and they kept moving at the same constant rate, the Imperial SHOULD stay in stealth longer than a Bosmer before running out of Stamina.

wedgebert · March 2019

That's what I thought too, but I never pay enough attention to know for sure.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Bosmer:

Y'ffre's Endurance: Increase stamina recovery by 258.

Imperial:

Imperial Mettle: Increase Stamina by 2000.

Red Diamond: Reduce the cost of Sneak (and all other abilities) by 3%.

What are you expecting testing to find?

Bosmer aslo have

Resist Affliction: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and Poison Resistance by 2310. Gain immunity to the Poisoned status effect.

So it really boils down to what is better for sneaking

258 stamina recovery (plus modifiers) or 3% sneak reduction.

But one of the big points is that even if the stamina recovery is better, it still means that Imperials have a direct bonus to stealth while Bosmer are only getting it because they have a different bonus that just happens to benefit stealth. If they decided to change how stamina recovery works while sneak, Bosmer could easily lose that as well.

I may be mistaken on the mechanics of it, but I believe you do NOT get Stamina recovery while moving in stealth.

So if an Imperial and Bosmer have the exact same stamina, and they kept moving at the same constant rate, the Imperial SHOULD stay in stealth longer than a Bosmer before running out of Stamina.

He would get farther, yes, but once one rans out, they need to stand still to start moving again. I was simply wondering if there is a tipping point at which Bosmer are better than Imperials again. On the first stamina pool, I'd expect Imperials to take a lead, then Bosmer catch up (maybe) but the question is when does that happen.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

According to Zeno, never.

wedgebert · March 2019

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Arato · March 2019

Probably the reason you're not getting bounties if you're claiming not to is because someone else has been killing all the NPC's in the stable, getting the bounties for you.

alanmatillab16_ESO · March 2019

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

So, you're totally ok with them taking away ALL magic bonuses with Altmer since they could, technically, still do magic, just not as well as they could before, right? How about taking all weapon bonuses away from Orcs. They can have a cleaning bonus with featherdusters instead. They could still use weapons, after all.

edit to add: thanks for the bump.

wedgebert · March 2019

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

Oddly enough, I don't believe you.

Kater_Murr · March 2019

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

Yeah, sure, in the end in single-player games Bosmer didn't have any edge against anyone in sneak. But so did everyone else. So, if it boils down to this, just remove sneaking bonus from the Khajiit and be done with this.

Arato · March 2019

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

Say you work in a job that requires really good fine motor control to do, like a surgeon. One day you develop parkinsons or have a really bad accident (think Dr Strange) that maims your hands and your hands shake constantly.. Are you still going to insist on being a surgeon despite no longer being highly dexterous and skilled at it because you can still technically hold the instruments and make incisions?

Night_Wolf2112 · March 2019

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favorite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "But that's what they're known for!"

Was just talking about video games with a coworker. He mentioned his favourite game of all time was Skyrim and was only kinda aware ESO existed.

I mentioned the Bosmer changes and his immediate response was, to paraphrase, "Can they still sneak?" and after being told "yes" the answer was "So what is the fuss about?"

This is obvious condescending and baiting in its finest form..... anything going to be done about it?

Thx for the bump though

Ratzkifal · March 2019

@alanmatillab16_ESO Something that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that all of us could have done sneaky thievery content on any of our other characters already just fine. But we chose to make Bosmer partly because then we could do this type of content better. If you take that part away from the Bosmer race, then you take the reason for being for some of these characters.
Among those, the people, who aren't attached to the race of Bosmer beyond that bonus, have switched to Khajiit by now already. We are those who remain (and complain) because our characters are more than just the flavor of the month race and it is unacceptable to have a core part of our identity removed. The lore is on our side, ZOS' own goals are on our side and the objective look at functionality is on our side! Anyone who disagrees better make sure they include their reasons why, because I honestly don't see it.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Comprehensive collection of arguments against the complete removal of stealth related Bosmer passives

We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, due to the severe lack of detectable enemies and/or objects
making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons, Delves and PvP by making it easier to sneak past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
Removing stealthiness from Bosmer breaks with tradition as every game starting with Arena described Bosmer as great sneak thieves.
Elder Scrolls 1 Arena

Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall

Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind

Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion

Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim

Elder Scrolls Online
Stealth has always been an integral part of Bosmer culture and lore.
- The Rite of Theft is a war custom of the tribal Woodelfs in which a tribe raids another to steal the valuable possessions or people for ransom. The larger the stolen object, the more prestige it has. While deaths do occur, these raids are generally not deadly due to the stealthy nature of this war custom. "Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth" - Mistral Aurelian Teriscor
- The Bosmer's most famous poem is called "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding". Although we have never seen this poem, it has been mentioned several times, even within the books of ESO. Sources for this are the "Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Aldmeri Dominion", "War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer" (ESO) as well as "A Dance in Fire, Book 1". All these sources are quoting it to be the most famous poem and two of them also mention the forest-coupling ability.
- Bosmer are known to possess an ability called "forest-coupling" that allows them to camouflage themselves in proximity to plantlife. This ability, in conjunction with being prone to desertion, is described as the reason why the Colovian armies stopped using the superior Bosmer archers in their legions after a failed experiment in the War of Rihad. It is said that "they would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable." While this can be interpreted as exaggeration, their superior stealth still factored into them not being commonly recruited into archer regiments for the Empire. It should be considered that the Imperial Legion is one of the most tactically advanced and honed military forces in Tamriel, making them a very reliable source for information of military importance such as stealth capabilities of potential enemies or allies.
Sources:

BlueViolet wrote: »

War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer

Valenwood: A Study

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Aldmeri Dominion
The emotional argument of habitute and attachement - while not a strong argument on its own when talking about delicate matters such as balance, in conjunction with the reasons given above, it adds gravity to the situation and highlights the importance of this issue.
We, the players, are not a homogenous mass and nobody can speak for the entire playerbase without needing to differentiate. Thus this may not apply for every player individually.
Prior to the Wrathstone release, Bosmer was not considered a "good race" in terms of combat power by most. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of stamina sustain, will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer because of their looks will continue to do so now. Players who chose Bosmer for roleplaying and lore will continue to do so now. Players who previously chose Bosmer because of their improved sneaking have now either switched to Khajiit or are too attached to the characters they spent time and effort to flesh out and develop to switch off now. These players won't use their race change tokens, because changing the race, means changing everything about the character that they love. Yet, their characters lost their reason for being. When there are plenty of reasons (as seen above) for Bosmer to retain their stealthiness, then it will be difficult for these players to move on from their characters. Most of us, who still think of this as an important issue, chose the Bosmer race with the substantiated expectation that choosing Bosmer would always mean sneaking superiorly to most races. If it was merely an attachment to the stealth gameplay and not the race, then these players would have adapted and moved on already, however they would have never created a Bosmer specifically, if wanting to excel at stealth gameplay played no roll in their decision. The Wrathstone update betrayed this expectations and is making others fear that "they may be next". Instilling this kind of fear into players will ultimately drive people away and hurt the diversity of the playerbase if not harm the total numbers noticably.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

@max_only @BlueRaven I finished the first comprehensive collection of arguments. This is what you can put on the front page/take and hand to ZOS and class reps and whoever you want to talk to.

IF ANYONE STILL HAS ARGUMENTS THAT ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE COLLECTION, WRITE THEM DOWN FOR DISCUSSION!

BlueRaven · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@max_only @BlueRaven I finished the first comprehensive collection of arguments. This is what you can put on the front page/take and hand to ZOS and class reps and whoever you want to talk to.

IF ANYONE STILL HAS ARGUMENTS THAT ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE COLLECTION, WRITE THEM DOWN FOR DISCUSSION!

Wow That is great! Thanks!

I am really hoping we get some early answers/relief on the 28th when the NDA drops. I would love to just simply enjoy the experience and not look around trying to find answers.

Arato · March 2019

I just don't think ZOS cares. All you can do is cancel your subs and Elsweyr preorders and not give them money and even then I doubt enough people will do it to make them change their mind. Remember we're talking about the company that is so tone deaf to their players that when they were already planning on cancelling Veteran Ranks, they reinforced the system 3 times, going from VR 10 to VR 16, not giving one crap about how much players disliked it. I'll bet even threats of actual physical violence wouldn't make them budge on their position, they're that stubborn and tone deaf. They simply do not care about their customers unless every single one of them were to stop giving them money. They don't care and never will. Game devs just look at consumers as stupid sheep that will give them money no matter what they do. Look at how Tim Sweeny at Epic Games thinks about his customers. He says that developers and publishers will decide who wins for digitial distribution platforms, not consumers, because we're all so dumb that we'll go wherever the publishers and developers lead us. People at EA have been on interviews with that kind of disdain for their customers as well. They think "for everyone complaining about our game 100 people are buying it and not complaining, and nothing will change that." All you can do is refuse to give them money and I'll bet even most of you are too hooked to go through with cancelling your subs and preorders. I really wish to prove their negative attitude towards customers wrong but time and time again enough people just go ahead and give them money and prove them right.

My sub ran out today and I'm not renewing, and I'll probably be taking a good break for awhile after this festival is done. I'll keep track and see if they come to their senses.. but frankly I have no hope, I expect too many people will just complain but still fork over the money. They don't care about your opinion they only care about your money. It's your prerogative I guess, but remember it's literally your only recourse when they do something you dislike. Because they see you as nothing but a sheep with money.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

@Arato They also care about publicity. Never underestimate that. The failure of Fallout76 on so many fronts should have taught them a valuable lesson. EA and Epic Games may be getting away with that (for now) but they won't. Their audiences are just too different. The Elder Scrolls Blades was most likely delayed for that very reason. Anything but a good product is unacceptable in the post 76 world.
I for my part know that this issue is important enough for me to stop spending money with them as long as it isn't fixed nor officially addressed.
Besides, if Tasear's words can be trusted (which, I think they can), then we should wait for the revelations of the 28th March before we judge ZOS' motives and work ethic.

So far the only department of ZOS that I am quite convinced has an ethics problem are those that dictate the prices in the crown store. But that's a topic for another thread.

max_only · March 2019

I updated it thanks!

tyggerbob · March 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@max_only @BlueRaven I finished the first comprehensive collection of arguments. This is what you can put on the front page/take and hand to ZOS and class reps and whoever you want to talk to.

IF ANYONE STILL HAS ARGUMENTS THAT ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE COLLECTION, WRITE THEM DOWN FOR DISCUSSION!

This would be a good thing to bring up at the Q&A event on "Saturday, March 30 from 3:30-4:30pm EDT"

wedgebert · March 2019

I just linked that comment in the https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/464722/questions-for-the-bethesda-game-days-elsweyr-q-a-livestream thread

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

I was just about to post my own.

Ratzkifal · March 2019

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

I was just about to post my own.

@Cundu_Ertur Please don't feel discouraged to post your own. I'd like to see what others came up with and how you'd phrase it as well.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

I posted right after anyways.

darthgummibear_ESO · March 2019

Now 42 pages in and the only response is "be nice"?

Arato · March 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Now 42 pages in and the only response is "be nice"?

see my post above about ZOS actually caring about player feedback.

Cundu_Ertur · March 2019

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

Now 42 pages in and the only response is "be nice"?

Wasn't even a dev, but a moderator.

MLGProPlayer · March 2019

124 upvotes and still completely ignored by ZOS. Classic.

Tasear · March 2019

tyggerbob wrote: »

Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

Issue would be focus on combat gameplay is after thought.

wedgebert · March 2019

Tasear wrote: »

tyggerbob wrote: »

Like I said before, I wonder how many of the people they consulted actually PLAY Bosmers or do justice quests regularly?

Issue would be focus on combat gameplay is thought.

I guess my issue is I'm experiencing combat gameplay when previously I could stealth by then? Not just in delves and overland, some of my justice marks fight back after all!