Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

MLGProPlayer

Night_Wolf2112 wrote: »

Basically... the developers will listen and change things, unless 'they just don't want to!'

Dont worry, this passive will be altered in a future update... how far in the future, idk. It's bad and they know it. They have heard the complaints and the valid reasoning. (Lore and Logic)

For now... 'they just don't want to!'

Which is classic ZOS.

Step 1: Make stupid change (that either breaks lore, balance, or both)
Step 2: Double down on change, tuning out all feedback and cutting off all communication channels
Step 3: Continue to ignore feedback for 2+ years
Step 4: Return the class/race to some measure of viability

MLGProPlayer

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

so many complains about elves...feels good to be khajiit.

Khajiit were literally just bludgeoned to death in the last patch. They are now worse than Dunmer (the other hybrid race) in every single role.

max_only

Just change it to

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

From

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

One word will make all the difference. Please.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
@zos_gilliam

anadandy

max_only wrote: »

Just change it to

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

From

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

One word will make all the difference. Please.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
@zos_gilliam

Seriously - it's literally this easy.

Ratzkifal

max_only wrote: »

Just change it to

Increases your stealth reduction radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

From

Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters
Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.

One word will make all the difference. Please.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_RichLambert
@zos_gilliam

I second this. Leave the dodgeroll mess if you must but give us back our reduced detection radius!

Alucardmike

Only to bring it up...

I still beg for money. Working good.

BlueRaven

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459900/what-is-our-class-reps-personal-opinions-on-the-upcoming-racial-changes#latest

Fingolfinn01

I can't see how is it balancing racials. its just nerfing some races and buffing others. Sad day for the bosmer, sad day indeed when they wake up and realised they just have been hit with the nerf hammer.


I hope it will change, but who knows.

max_only

BlueRaven wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459900/what-is-our-class-reps-personal-opinions-on-the-upcoming-racial-changes#latest

Thanks for this

heaven13

Copying this over from a thread in PTS.

heaven13 wrote: »

If you compare the little racial blurbs in live to PTS, they've even gone in and changed those. Bosmer used to say they were good at stealth. Now it's limited to stealth detection, while adding in the "gifted hunters" bit to push the agenda. I'm sorry, but this is probably the change I am most upset about. I'll adapt to all the other changes but my Bosmer losing the core of her identity is not acceptable to me.

As I mentioned in a previous thread, I've had some iteration of her since closed beta. She was made because of Bosmer lore: sneak thief archers. It's what I've always played. Now I'll need to rely on upcoming (soon™), undisclosed changes to stealth gameplay in general - which all races will have access to - and gear set bonuses to achieve a similar ability. Those that used the gear set bonuses on top of Bosmer passives to excel during heists and sacraments will either have to suck it up or become a furry. No thanks.

Stealth detection has no use in PVE. None. Even the developers have said as much. It's not even entirely useful in Cyrodiil due to the range, which people more knowledgeable than myself have covered. It's an asinine change that severely damages a core PVE aspect of this race with no reason especially given that it had limited use in actual group content (as far as I know, there wasn't an issue with Bosmer stealthing during a trial boss to do some kind of insane damage that other races couldn't compete with). IF the issue was the extra damage from stealth being too OP in Cyrodiil, reduce the damage done from stealth but leave the damn stealth radius in place.

Bladewizard

5 subs were cancelled in my house this morning, since it appears this is gonna go live.
My niece only plays sneaky wood elves so she is done. My nephew only subs to play the game with his wife so if shes gone he is gone.
My son subs so he can play the game with his old man and i quit my 2 subs because i am not paying to have my favorite race gutted, so he quit too. 5 subs gone in my house alone, because someone at zos decided wood elves shouldnt be sneaky. None of us even cared about the nerfs, that happens in every mmo, but making cats the only race with a real stealth passive was just too much.

max_only

I wonder how many more will quit come Feb 25th. People in game who don’t read the forums are in for a rude suprise.

Erris

This is a horrible change. Hopefully they don't implement it.

zyk

Things like this tend not to result in mass-exists, but they affect the attachment players have with the game, making it easier to leave when different options present themselves.

ZOS is working with an incredibly popular IP that millions are attached to, but they are eroding good will for their product every time they do something like this.

It's ironic, really, as the central theme of the main story is hubris and ZOS is so full of it.

max_only

Erris wrote: »

This is a horrible change. Hopefully they don't implement it.

We’ll find out in 5 days

Left4Daud

If the Bosmer stealth nerf goes live it will show either an absolutely incredible disconnect (or just plain disregard) by ZOS to their players. Neither of which are traits you would look for when contemplating supporting a developer.

Well, they’re making it easier and easier for me to keep my sub off the table and ignore future purchases (don’t have Summerset or Elsweyr). I won’t quit over this, no, but I will continue to stress their servers and not give them any more money for the far forseeable future.

Ratzkifal

After the Murkmire drama I did not resub and had my enjoyment of the game so thoroughly drained that I never even set foot into the zone up to this day. I didn't buy the DLC, but I did get it from the rewards anyway.
The season of the Dragon looked so promising that I actually found my enjoyment for the game again, but this has the potential to suck it all out once more.
I was never a fan of dungeon DLCs anyway and only bought them when there was a discount on crowns - Dragonbones being the only exception. If this change goes live, chances are that I'll not purchase Wrathstone on launch, possibly even never. Resubbing to play through it is also unlikely at this rate.

PLEASE ZOS, DO NOT GO REPLACE THE SNEAK RADIUS REDUCTION WITH SOMETHING NOBODY WANTS!

anadandy

From initial racial balance notes:

A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other.

So Wood Elf drew the short straw, I guess. But was the removal of the stealth reduction really necessary to make the two races distinct? Aren't the rest of the changes, along with the renames, distinctive enough without gutting Bosmer identity? Is it so game breaking to revert Stealth Detection back to Stealth Reduction and give players options?

Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead.

Except they didn't. They built it into Khajiit passives (Feline Ambush) but Bosmer got saddled with Stealth Detection which directly contradicts the "since sneaking isn't a universal mechanic" reason. Stealth detection is even less of a universal mechanic - they even admit it - nothing sneaks in PVE.

4.3.2 Patch notes:

We heard your concerns of adding in a highly powerful movement speed bonus tied to Roll Dodging, as well as the performance of this passive in PvE versus PvP environments. We wanted players who are focused on damage to get a small boost out of this in situations where they dodge attacks, without adding more passive power to the race.

This is mostly ok, even if I personally dislike the roll dodge passive. It does not, however, address the concerns raised about Stealth Detection and its lack of utility outside of PVP. They mention looking at the roll dodge in these terms, so why was the problem with Stealth Detection ignored? How would having stealth reduction "add more passive power"?

Class rep meeting notes:

Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before.

First - I want to be clear that my frustration to the response is in no way directed at the class reps. That said, this response is essentially a non-answer. If some greater plan is coming for stealth, why did only Bosmer get the hammer? Why not remove it from both races (not advocating this) or leave it until the solution is ready?

You know what else would allow Bosmer to have the nice combat buff while still having avenues to be as stealthy as before? Change stealth detection back to the stealth radius bonus - boom, done.

Those are just the official remarks. Others I have heard are:

"Players who don't use stealth felt this was a useless passive"
Fair enough. But the solution is to replace it with something even more useless? And what, people who did find it useful can pound sand unless they PVP? Wouldn't the more equitable solution have been to add the roll dodge passive and leave the stealth reduction alone? That way people who find it useful are happy and people who don't get a damage/movement buff and are also happy. Win-win, right?

"Stealth is only used by gankers"
Yeah ok - I'll play along. So you remove stealth from Bosmer to stop gankers. Do people honestly think the die-hard gankers won't just switch to a Khajiit? What about other races wearing those oft-touted stealth sets? Gankers gonna gank - removing stealth reduction from Bosmer is not going to stop that.

TL;DR - I'm still feeding that elephant that no one wants to talk about.

A_Silverius

Stealth detection is only useful in pvp, stealth radius is useful for both pve and pvp. Please keep our stealth radius thank you:) I very much enjoy thieving on my Bosmer. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Bosmer#The_Rite_of_Theft

max_only

Left4Daud wrote: »

If the Bosmer stealth nerf goes live it will show either an absolutely incredible disconnect (or just plain disregard) by ZOS to their players. Neither of which are traits you would look for when contemplating supporting a developer.

Well, they’re making it easier and easier for me to keep my sub off the table and ignore future purchases (don’t have Summerset or Elsweyr). I won’t quit over this, no, but I will continue to stress their servers and not give them any more money for the far forseeable future.

I’m not sure they even considered it. They are counting on Khajiits to make up any losses from other areas. It’s the Khajiit expansion after all

Everstorm

In itself this nerf wouldn't cause me to quit but together with the EU-PC performance, the locking of story lines behind group content and the gutting of refreshing path it might just break the camel's back.

max_only

Ratzkifal wrote: »

After the Murkmire drama I did not resub and had my enjoyment of the game so thoroughly drained that I never even set foot into the zone up to this day. I didn't buy the DLC, but I did get it from the rewards anyway.
The season of the Dragon looked so promising that I actually found my enjoyment for the game again, but this has the potential to suck it all out once more.
I was never a fan of dungeon DLCs anyway and only bought them when there was a discount on crowns - Dragonbones being the only exception. If this change goes live, chances are that I'll not purchase Wrathstone on launch, possibly even never. Resubbing to play through it is also unlikely at this rate.

PLEASE ZOS, DO NOT GO REPLACE THE SNEAK RADIUS REDUCTION WITH SOMETHING NOBODY WANTS!

Only one class rep, Joy Division, mentioned it.

Even something as simple as this would go a long way to building good will and... nothing.

Jaraal

Wouldn't surprise me if they spin this later for cash.


"We've heard the massive outcry over the gutting of the Bosmer core values, and we've reversed our decision.... but only for those who prepurchase the Elsweyr expansion! Stealth will be restored to those Bosmer brave enough to have access to the Necromancer class.... and dragons! And, for a limited time only, add an Eso Plus subscription, and double your sneak radius detection in Cyrodiil and Battlegrounds!"

Uryel

Bladewizard wrote: »

5 subs were cancelled in my house this morning, since it appears this is gonna go live.
My niece only plays sneaky wood elves so she is done. My nephew only subs to play the game with his wife so if shes gone he is gone.
My son subs so he can play the game with his old man and i quit my 2 subs because i am not paying to have my favorite race gutted, so he quit too. 5 subs gone in my house alone, because someone at zos decided wood elves shouldnt be sneaky. None of us even cared about the nerfs, that happens in every mmo, but making cats the only race with a real stealth passive was just too much.

I feel sorry for you, mate, but I can relate, on a smaller scale. +1 awesome.

starkerealm

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Incidentally, if you're wanting to make any character stealthy, my recomendation would be either Night Mother's Embrace (the Night Mother drop set, not the crafted one), and either Darkstride, Night Terror (for reduced detection radius), or Night's Silence (for full movement in stealth).

Did you seriously think that somebody who makes as much of a fuss about stealthiness as I do didn't know that?

Yes.

teladoy

I think the stealth detection is OP but if you think lore is more important...

max_only

teladoy wrote: »

I think the stealth detection is OP but if you think lore is more important...

Have you tested it? It’s not stealth suppression like Magelight. It’s not against invisible enemies like nb’s Cloak. It’s only 3 meters which is melee range (jabs is 8x6 meters by comparison, Incap is 5 meters)

starkerealm

teladoy wrote: »

I think the stealth detection is OP but if you think lore is more important...

That's kinda the problem; it's not.

In PvP it's incredibly potent, situationally, but in PvE it's meaningless.

So, we have a major racial passive that's PvP only. I'm not wild about that. There have always been races that did better in PvP or PvE, and of course, the Breton's minor racial passive is PvP only, but having a major passive be PvP only is an issue.

Girl_Number8

Best to use sets and vampy if you want to go all out. Though for PvE sets will give you great stealth for the thief playstyle.

Unfortunately a lot of people on the forums have 1 or 2 mains and don't really care about every other race or class. This is what nerf threads create and always will. Concentrating on nice buffs to keep things on par with each other would be better but people are salty. This happens every dlc.

Cundu_Ertur

teladoy wrote: »

I think the stealth detection is OP but if you think lore is more important...

Yep, stealth detection is massively OP; it's why the way of air sets are selling for mountains of gold from the guild traders. But giving up this incredible, overwhelmingly useful, and powerful ability is a sacrifice we are willing to make for the sake of being consistent with lore. We are just that magnanimous.