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Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

  • Night_Wolf2112
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    Grahtwood is Bosmer territory is it not?
    What about Braken Leafs Briars.....
    Wolf, Snake, Tiger... and... Hawk/Eagle!


    Sorry, had to add that last one in to show the aspect of better vision. 🕵️‍♂️🕵️‍♀️
  • Eiron77
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    @KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.
    • We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
    • Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
      Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
    • Doesn't fit lore
      Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.


    Looks good to me!
  • Ratzkifal
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    Next we need to go in depth but not make it too complicated about the lore. They have been described as sneak thieves in every game since Arena.
    We have the famous poem A thousand benefits of hiding.
    If we could get a source from the imperial legion or any "official" imperial source on Bosmer being thieves and sneaky, then we'd have a great example to back up our claims as you can trust the empire whenever it comes down to being efficient and knowing their stuff.
    I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • anadandy
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

    I actually found that exact quote earlier today and posted it in another thread about this.
    "For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

    Ha! I was just coming to post this :)
  • Sylvermynx
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    BlueViolet wrote: »
    The bit about being prone to desertion made me laugh. The free spirit of Bosmer is what made me love them right from the start. The last line though.... It couldn't be any clearer that being stealthy is part of being a Wood Elf.

    It makes me sad that Zenimax have just tossed aside an essential part of a people like it was yesterdays garbage :(

    Eh, while I don't run my Bosmer girls as sneak thieves, this does bother me very much. I *might* someday want to be sneaky on them....
  • Ratzkifal
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    "For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

    Alright. There we have it. Thanks @wedgebert ! Now we have a reliable source, the Pocket Guide to the Empire 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion. Unfortunately it is also the source of the One Thousand benefits of Hiding, so they technically count as only one piece of evidence. Anyone got another good excerpt that highlights how stealthy Bosmer are?
    Edited by Ratzkifal on March 2, 2019 2:28AM
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • Cundu_Ertur
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    The Meh Ayleidion is also mentioned in passing in the first book of A Dance in Fire, it is noted as being especially renowned.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • max_only
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    Do you mind if I put your list on the front page?
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • max_only
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    anadandy wrote: »
    @BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East
    Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

    Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.


    Hm I’m nearby, ish. Under 3 hour drive but I usually work those days... Do you really think showing up will help our cause?
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Hand_Bacon
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    @Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!


    I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

    I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.
  • BlueRaven
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    max_only wrote: »
    anadandy wrote: »
    @BlueRaven - to answer your earlier question about Pax East
    Will we see you at our next #BethesdaDays event? Join the ESO team on March 29th and 30th at Laugh Boston & MJ O’Connors.

    Play Elsweyr for the first time, win swag, and meet other members of the community! No #PAXEast badge necessary.


    Hm I’m nearby, ish. Under 3 hour drive but I usually work those days... Do you really think showing up will help our cause?

    I should also note I will be coming in from NY so I am about a 3hr drive as well.
  • BlueRaven
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    anadandy wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »

    (There appears to be no race descriptions in the Elder Scrolls 5 Skyrim manual.)

    I just fired up Skyrim to grab the Wood Elf race description from in game

    AlqbzgY.jpg

    Thanks! I forgot about that!
  • BlueRaven
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    wedgebert wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
    Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

    From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

    So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

    I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

    Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

    That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.
  • Cundu_Ertur
    Cundu_Ertur
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    BlueRaven wrote: »
    wedgebert wrote: »
    BlueRaven wrote: »
    Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
    Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

    From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

    So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

    I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

    Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

    That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

    I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.
    Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.
  • Jaraal
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    Hand_Bacon wrote: »
    Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight.

    Except there are exactly zero hidden enemy assets in ESO for the vast majority of Bosmer players.



    I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

    While I love my Bosmer main, I would be totally against this as I have 4 max Leger/TG/DB Khajiit thieves, and I don't wish to see their livelihood and relevance nerfed, either.

    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • Ratzkifal
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    max_only wrote: »
    Do you mind if I put your list on the front page?

    @max_only Of course not, but I wouldn't call it finished yet. There have been plenty of great suggestions made for further change on it.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • KMarble
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    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    @KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.


    I like it.
    Ratzkifal wrote: »
    Next we need to go in depth but not make it too complicated about the lore. They have been described as sneak thieves in every game since Arena.
    We have the famous poem A thousand benefits of hiding.
    If we could get a source from the imperial legion or any "official" imperial source on Bosmer being thieves and sneaky, then we'd have a great example to back up our claims as you can trust the empire whenever it comes down to being efficient and knowing their stuff.
    I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

    You don't even have to go outside ESO to see it mentioned. Tthere are at least 3 quests in this game that were created around the concept of the right of theft.
    - The first one is given to us by a guy who's hanging around Elden Root near the miggens - he stole a bow, invoked the right of theft, but his partner in crime took the bow and fled. You need to bring the bow back.
    - the second is in - I think - Greenshade. You're hired by a loan shark to get some money back from a bosmer. It turns out the thief who took the money is asking for something unexpected when they invoke the right of theft,
    - then there is one that is tied up to the main questline for AD, and it's called "Right of Theft".

    The case could be made that two of the three are side quests and can be ignored, but the third example is part of the main quest for AD. At some point the developers thought that was a defining characteristic of wood elves and used it as the reason for those quests to exist. Akin to using the lore around the Hist on quests related to Argonians.

    ETA: if memory serves, in every single one of the quests I mentioned above, there is a dialogue tree that allows the player to know more about the right of theft.

    Edited by KMarble on March 2, 2019 7:15PM
This discussion has been closed.