anadandy wrote: »

I'm curious if there will be any attention paid to the weirdness with stealth detection you discovered. Because it really sounds like a bug - and if its not a bug then it is an even bigger problem with the passive. I'd really like to hear a defense of that.

This is actually a good way for them to backtrack and save face at the same time:

"We've discovered a bug in the way Hunter's Eye is applied, so we are restoring the old Stealthy Bosmer passive until we can find a way to make the new passive work as originally intended..."

.... and then walk away and pretend it never even happened.

@KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  
  

Ratzkifal wrote: »

@KMarble @Eiron77 Changed it. Tell me what you think.

• We want more diverse race choices for characters that are focused on justice interactions. Having Khajiit be the only one with a sneaking advantage is very limiting.
• Stealth detect has no benefits in PvE, making this an exclusively PvP oriented passive component, which is counter to the original goals (goal number 2 - universal applicability) of the racial balance change. Since stealth detection is only beneficial in PvP environments it also does not line up with the original reasoning given behind the removal of stealth - that only a player that stealths (in this case, detects other players) can benefit from this (part of the) passive. As of now, PvE players only benefit from 10% speed after dodging at the cost of three skill points and ~3.6k stamina cost, as the penetration will either be wasted due to the cap or result in a DPS loss from the lack of uptime. Returning the reduced sneak radius or a similar passive component that improves sneaking helps players across the board as everyone can choose to take advantage of that in the Overworld as well as Dungeons and PvP by sneaking past enemies or sneaking into an advantageous position to strike.
  Furthermore the additional stealth detect in PvP is not in line with existing forms of detection as it reveals cloaked enemies without an indicator. It also gives away the existence of a hidden Bosmer to other sneaking enemies as it also increases the "danger" radius with the half opened eye indicator in which enemies can tell they are about to be revealed before the sneaking Bosmer is even made aware of the existence of their sneaking enemy. These intransparent and counterintuitive issues would need to be addressed and resolved if the passive was kept in its current form, which is why we would be willing to give up this component of the passive to regain improved sneaking.
• Doesn't fit lore
  Bosmer have been described as great sneak thieves in every Elder Scrolls game starting with Arena.
  
  

Nice!

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I vaguely remember one source where it says that Bosmer are the best archers on tamriel but aren't as easily drilled and disciplined than others or something, which is why Bosmer aren't common among the archers of the legion.

I actually found that exact quote earlier today and posted it in another thread about this.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Aldmeri Dominion wrote:

"For a brief time the Colovian armies used Wood Elf archers, as in the War of Rihad two years past. The Bosmer proved to be too undisciplined and prone to desertion for further use. They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish. Their forest-coupling skills are remarkable. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Ratzkifal Nice work on the proposal!


I was looking at those screenshots of Bosmer descriptions and something occurred to me. Their prowess as scouts is mentioned as often as thieving. Scouting has as much to do with detecting hidden enemy assets as those in plain sight. Also, I think when people think of thieving they automatically go to the in-game mechanic of being "hidden". Pickpockets for all practical purposes don't become "invisible" rather they hide in plain sight and use their slight of hand and other tricks to achieve their purpose. Thieving is abstracted for game purposes.

I would like the buggy nature of their stealth detect fixed (i haven't experienced the bug) and the radius increased to at least that of magelight if not more.

I was also pouring over the sources provided. While these statements are true, there are several references that drive home the art of stealth, the art of remaining hidden and unseen as the core of the Bosmer nature. This book references it being an intregal part of them becoming the Bosmer (when they split off from the original elves):

Life for many in the Aldmeri Dominion begins in Valenwood. Green, forested, filled with a wide variety of plant and animal life, and home to some of the first Elves from Old Ehlnofey.

Over time and through generations, these early settlers adapted to the woods. They learned stealth and cunning by studying their new prey. Eventually, they became Wood Elves, or Bosmer.

Then, this book below references their thievery, yes, but it makes a point that the ultimate goal of the theft is to not be noticed. That the pinnacle of their skill is not being seen:

Many raids conclude with no fighting whatsoever. It is considered the acme of skill to slip into another tribe's village and steal an item for ransom without being noticed. The larger the item, the greater the prestige. Thanks to centuries of this practice, the tribal Bosmer have become legendary for their stealth. The title of their most famous poem, the Meh Ayleidion, means "The One Thousand Benefits of Hiding."

Then there's the quote mentioned a few comments above that says: They would sometimes walk into the shade of a single tree and vanish.

So while stealth detection can be rationalized as part of their lore, it is not mentioned specifically. It's as if the lore is stating Bosmer is synonymous with Stealth. It was even integral to them becoming Bosmer. I can therefore agree with your sentiment so long as it is: Stealth first priority, thieving/scouting skills second.

EDIT: The quotes above were found in this comment by @BlueViolet :

Lore Book Entries such as the following make mention of Bosmer legendary stealth prowess, do they count?

War Customs of the Tribal Bosmer

Valenwood: A Study

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

wedgebert wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Even if the fix comes this summer, I think it’s unfair and just weird for bosmers to have a stealth boost, have it taken away, and then given back. The system should be in the game now.
Or if this is phase one of a long term overhaul then just tell us because quite frankly I am getting tired and frustrated just talking to this brick wall of silence.

From how I've understood it, the *fix* wouldn't give Bosmer their natural stealth back, rather it'd be a separate skill line that anyone could take to boost stealth.

So even if it goes though, we'd still be the Mall Cop race in PVP and have no PVE benefit at all.

I know that. But if it’s under the Bosmer skill line or a “sneak” skill line has little difference to me. My main concern is (under such a system) will kahjits and imperials ALWAYS have an advantage? In other words, do they stack?

Remember kahjits and imperials are not getting that stealth bonus racial for “free”. They have to put points into it.

That’s why I don’t see it being put under a ledgerman skill line. If I played a kahjit, I may end up “paying” for the stealth bonus twice, which strikes me as unfair.

I think it would stack, so they'd pay more to get more. That's why my proposal has always included a slight reduction in the Khajiit racial boost for stealth.

(Ok buckle up, this may be a long post.)

I am finally at a computer, as opposed to writing my previous posts today through my phone, so hopefully i can explain myself a bit better.

Here are the main issues I am seeing right now in regards to stealth;

1) Right now some races have bonuses to stealth and others that don't. If they implement a new "sneak" tree, or modify an existing tree. I don't foresee them suddenly changing the racials of those with a stealth bonus at the onset of a new "sneak" category. (Maybe I am being optimistic, but I would like to think they made these racials with the future "stealth" changes already in mind.)

2) The kahjits bonus to stealth;

"Feline Ambush: Increases your Critical Hit Damage and Healing by 10%. Reduces your detection radius in Stealth by 3m."

And the imperials bonus;

"When you deal Direct Damage, you restore 333 Health, Magicka, and Stamina. This effect has a 5 second cooldown. It also will reduce the cost of all abilities by 3%."

Both cost skill point to activate. (This is important later.)

3) I think there is an upper limit to what they want these abilities to stack to. We all saw that video with the 5m stealth bonus to Kahjits on the PTS. I don't think they want a natural bonus to get that far in game.

4) The infamous quote;

"Note: Reps specifically asked about the community’s concern that bosmers are trading stealth for different buffs. We were told that ZOS saw these concerns and would work on creating more options/systems for stealth gameplay outside of race. With these additions, stealth gameplay will open up to more players, and also allow bosmers to have the nice combat buff will still having avenues to be as stealthy as before."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456997/class-reps-update-meeting-notes-jan-30-2019/p1

The talk of "options" and "systems" implies a more profound change to stealth (and maybe other things), but this account is basically written second hand. So how much weight does this have? Are new skill lines what they meant? Or are they just going to add an armor set?

•••

If the racials DO stack with any new future skills, well then it's game over. Bosmers will ALWAYS lag behind imperials and Kahjits in stealth. And this whole racial change is truly awful, particularly from a lore perspective.

•••

But let me be optimistic and let's pretend for a moment that the stealth racial bonuses do NOT stack with other skills.

A ) So, if it were to go into a modification of the ledgerman skill line to add a stealth bonus;

A1) They could add a new sneak line on it's own with three ranks with the caveat that it does NOT stack with any racials.
This way Kahjits don't need to put points into it, as they may have already put points into their own racial. While it may be a tad confusing, at least everyone can catch up. (However, they could have done that already in this patch.)

A2) They could graft sneak onto "Improved hiding" (for example) in the ledgeman skill line. (Also something they could have done this patch.) But a khajit player looking for the reduced stamina cost to stealth would be also paying for the dead weight of the improved stealth which does not seem right.

•••

B ) Expanded racials.

A radical idea, but what if they were to expand the amount of racials every race gets. These racials can be more universal, adding magcika to stamina races, etc. Suddenly bosmers (and nords and orcs) have options for stealth. Bretons and Altmer have stamina options, etc.

I HIGHLY doubt this will happen but I can't 100% rule it out. And AGAIN this should have been implemented this patch. The reason I bring this up as one of the stated goals was to "open up" the races for additional roles, but that did not come across very well in this patch. So maybe there is something more coming down the pike.

C ) They actually implement a new "sneak" skill tree that is coming in Elsweyr. This may be under a NDA at the moment, which is why they are not talking about it, but this option is strengthen by the "options" and "systems" cryptic remarks. It has been noted that Elsweyr is only implementing a new class, as opposed to previous chapters that added profound changes to the game (arenas in Morrowind as an example). Maybe adding a "sneak" tree is only one amongst many skill trees that they are adding and they just have not told us yet because "NDA".

•••

The whole thing is just overly complex and confusing. The removal of stealth from Bosmers appears to me to be a simple case of "Well, Kahjits have it, so lets do something different with Bosmers", and not actually driven by any actual gameplay NEED to make them different. Right now the reasoning appears to be that Bosmers don't have a stealth bonus is because Kahjits do. Which is both infuriating and strange.

To me right now, if this is truly a huge overall systems change and we are only seeing the first piece of it, how does a future stealth bonus "click in" to the puzzle piece of the current patch? Trying to "graft" a fix onto this is just not something I want to do. Before this whole thing, I would come on to the forums only to ask a quick question, or check some patch notes and move on. And not to be mean, I WANT to go back to that. I want this to just have a conclusion.

correct me if I'm wrong, but scouting rarely involves detecting HIDDEN enemies but rather hiding while scouting enemy that can even be visible but cannot be judged or counted in plain sight? like... you kinda know that enemy is on the move, but you want to scout how fast they are moving, how big is the army, etc etc... so you HIDE, close by and track them. and they are not hidden, YOU are?

stealth detection for a scout doesn't make much sense to be TBH.