Wood Elf/ Bosmer losing stealth passive, An open letter.

anadandy

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day. Woohoo! I am so (not) excited!

Anyone wants to brainstorm ideas for protests ingame? Maybe a Bosmer party in Abah's Landing with thieves heists? Maybe a horde of Bosmer killing all killable NPCs in Alinor?

Bosmer all using the Flip tje Bird emote

max_only

Red_Feather wrote: »

They should get a corpse consuming passive. Gaining resources from being such cannibal freaks!

That’s what I would want in a perfect world where I own the game lol, it would be a crime in the justice system though if it gets witnessed by an npc.

Thanks for keeping this thread up top friends, we need to be here for when they snip hits the fan after the update tomorrow.

Jaraal

BlueRaven wrote: »

I think the main action will be here on the forums. And action again in 2 weeks when the consoles get the patch.

Yeah, people who don't normally come to the forums are in for a rude awakening. I'm picturing hundreds, if not thousands of Bosmer thieves wondering why they are suddenly getting big bounties and getting killed by guards.


It's gonna be ugly!

Ratzkifal

@BlueRaven Another lore inconsistency to add to your list, which admittedly has already existed before U21 is that Orcs are not inherently sturdier than Imperials, when they should be. In a perfect world where I make the balance, Orcs would be viable tanks because of the raw stats and Imperials could be tanks thanks to utility passives that allow them to "cheat the system" like they do with their reduced costs.

Left4Daud

Do you guys remember that whole HDR fiasco on console and the ensuing outrage? The forums blew up with thousands of complaints and @ZOS_MattFiror came to the forums with a formal apology. He said that situations like that, where ZOS has made some minor aesthetic adjustments that ended up having an unforeseen massive effect on the feel of the game for players were hard lessons for the company. Because of such instances, he said they have a philosophy that they don’t touch stuff like that because people grow to love it, regardless of whether or not the artist is satisfied with the job.

Even though visuals aren’t the same as race passives, I feel there are some parallels between these situations. I wish they would have honored that philosophy with the flavor side of the race rework... Taking away something so harmless as 3 meters of reduced stealth detection which is very important to how some players feel and connect with their characters is just needless.

I’ve read so many well written and thoughtful posts from Bosmer mains who are in love with their characters. For them the stealth aspect is what drew them to the race and kept them playing and loving this game for years. I really feel bad for these players, I feel like @ZOS_MattFiror is doing some of his most passionate players a colossal disservice by letting a change like this go through.

I just don’t get it. This would be like taking the Magicka bonuses off of Altmer... I mean I could see if they took the reduced detection radius away from Khajiit as well with the promise of reworking stealth back into the game outside of race but they’re not even doing that. And who knows how far away this supposed rework to stealth is off in the future.

It’s just beyond head scratching and beyond disappointing.

Aela_Dragonrider

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Tomorrow is the big day. Woohoo! I am so (not) excited!

Anyone wants to brainstorm ideas for protests ingame? Maybe a Bosmer party in Abah's Landing with thieves heists? Maybe a horde of Bosmer killing all killable NPCs in Alinor?

I have any idea that I posted on another thread but will suggest here as well:

Invoke the Rite of Theft

All the Bosmer sneak into ZOS studios, steal everything, and then only give it all back when the developers give them back the ir+3m stealth radius

If we can't do that, then we go to plan B: We see if any of the developers have a character in-game. If so, we flash-mob them with hundreds of Bosmer all doing the /heartbroken emote.

Ratzkifal

Just went to and did some stealing. The amount of Bosmer running in and out of the Alinor outlaw refuge is making me sad. So many people that will be nerfed for no reason.

If ZOS wants to make Bosmer different from Khajiit, then they should have given them another sneak passive. Reduced sneak cost. Increased sneak speed. Increased stamina regen during sneak. Anything really that helps with quality of life for thieves and assassins.

I feel like I am repeating myself so much, but ZOS just doesn't care. I doubt we are in the minority here and even if, I don't think people that don't care about the lore should get factored into a decisions about it. There is literally no one who is invested in the lore and approves of this!
Imagine if ZOS removed all magicka passives from Dunmer because "they were too similar". That's how Bosmer feel right now.

Before numerical racial balance was achieved, the only reason people made Bosmer was because of the lore, the sneak passives and boost to stamina if they had no access to Redguards and didn't feel like going Khajiit!

ruikkarikun

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

BlueRaven

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

Stealth is used in PVE and PVP. Stealth Detect is PVP only.

Ratzkifal

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

@ruikkarikun Why do you think that Bosmer NB will be good in PvP? You can go for Khajiit for 10% more damage, more health and health regen, more magicka and magicka regen, better sneak, at the cost of just 1175 stamina and 173 stamina regen and poison resist. Sure, you can run 10% faster when you dodgeroll and you get a little bit of penetration but unless you get snared, you would only waste stamina. Besides, you still can't outrun an Orc sprinting after you, no matter how much you dodgeroll.

zyk

Left4Daud wrote: »

It’s just beyond head scratching and beyond disappointing.

Isn't that the whole world right now? Ethics are out of fashion atm. I know someone reading this right now is thinking, "lol ethics in a video game," which is exactly my point.

ruikkarikun

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

@ruikkarikun Why do you think that Bosmer NB will be good in PvP? You can go for Khajiit for 10% more damage, more health and health regen, more magicka and magicka regen, better sneak, at the cost of just 1175 stamina and 173 stamina regen and poison resist. Sure, you can run 10% faster when you dodgeroll and you get a little bit of penetration but unless you get snared, you would only waste stamina. Besides, you still can't outrun an Orc sprinting after you, no matter how much you dodgeroll.

Because I leveled one
Like you want to say it will be unplayable? Can't be real. I think they want to sell some adventurers packs and crowns. Yes, they will give us 3 free change tokens, but for some who has 12+ chars it's like lol. So I'm not focusing on it. Just chilling. You know, I agree, but they're not listening, trying to find some positive moments.

And it works. And yes, still think we need some changes for pve.

ruikkarikun

BlueRaven wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

Stealth is used in PVE and PVP. Stealth Detect is PVP only.

Mb for RP or some (about pve). But how stealth helps bosmer in trials or dungeons? xDD
While they're not going to split between pvp/pve I know it's hard, but someone mb want to play bosmer in pve (why not??)

Cpt_Teemo

Wait the stealthy race from single player Skyrim will lose the one aspect wood elfs are good at

Linaleah

ruikkarikun wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

Stealth is used in PVE and PVP. Stealth Detect is PVP only.

Mb for RP or some (about pve). But how stealth helps bosmer in trials or dungeons? xDD
While they're not going to split between pvp/pve I know it's hard, but someone mb want to play bosmer in pve (why not??)

you do realize that not everyone plays for trials or dungeons, and that that extra stealth we used to have was invaluable for variety of legerdemain activities which now only Khajit get to have? moreover... will people actualy, genuinely dodgeroll on their bosmer while in a dungeon or trial environment solely to boost their... speed and very slightly penetration at a cost of wasting time on otherwise unnecessary dodge?

NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT DUNGEONS AND TRIALS. there is MORE TO THE GAME THAN DUNGEONS AND TRIALS, especially in pve.

TankHealz2015

From the response, I'd guess they plan to develop a DLC involving lots of stealth NPC/mobs... so probably stealth detection will be a good thing in the future PvE.

Still curious to the racials of Bosmer vs Khajiit; why not something like this:

Bosmer = reduced sneaking radius by 3 and increased stealth detection radius by 5 amount.

Khajiit = increased sneak movement speed by 3 and increased detection radius by 5 amount

adjust the numbers to be balance and fair... but you get the point.

Ratzkifal

ruikkarikun wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

Stealth is used in PVE and PVP. Stealth Detect is PVP only.

Mb for RP or some (about pve). But how stealth helps bosmer in trials or dungeons? xDD
While they're not going to split between pvp/pve I know it's hard, but someone mb want to play bosmer in pve (why not??)

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

@ruikkarikun Why do you think that Bosmer NB will be good in PvP? You can go for Khajiit for 10% more damage, more health and health regen, more magicka and magicka regen, better sneak, at the cost of just 1175 stamina and 173 stamina regen and poison resist. Sure, you can run 10% faster when you dodgeroll and you get a little bit of penetration but unless you get snared, you would only waste stamina. Besides, you still can't outrun an Orc sprinting after you, no matter how much you dodgeroll.

Because I leveled one
Like you want to say it will be unplayable? Can't be real. I think they want to sell some adventurers packs and crowns. Yes, they will give us 3 free change tokens, but for some who has 12+ chars it's like lol. So I'm not focusing on it. Just chilling. You know, I agree, but they're not listening, trying to find some positive moments.

And it works. And yes, still think we need some changes for pve.

@ruikkarikun Well, there is the whole justice interaction that's also part of PvE. It's certainly important enough to give us two DLCs around it. It might not help in dungeons or trials but neither does the stealth detection, which has even less appliances.

Of course Bosmer won't be a pointless race after the patch. They even have better sustain than Redguard in some cases. In pvp, Khajiit NBs will probably be stronger (especially the ganks and snipes), but Bosmer is indeed still better than having no beneficial racials.

But yes, while I do think that focusing on the good parts is important, when you take the stealth out of Bosmer, that's kind of a big deal that not even BiS status could fix. Or would you like if Altmer suddenly had no magicka passives anymore?

Ratzkifal

Cpt_Teemo wrote: »

Wait the stealthy race from single player Skyrim will lose the one aspect wood elfs are good at

@Cpt_Teemo Yes, and it's a shame nobody except this little thread is talking about it. Maybe it's because the wording is so similar to the old passive that people think it's still the same. Well it's not. The stealth race will now only be the stam race that gets an almost negligible dodgeroll passive and some poison resistance only werewolfs care about.

BlueRaven

ruikkarikun wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

ruikkarikun wrote: »

Stealth in PVE had zero effect. New passive is not so much better but hey, it's not stealth for pve xd. And yes, I think bosmer nb will be good in PVP.

Stealth is used in PVE and PVP. Stealth Detect is PVP only.

Mb for RP or some (about pve). But how stealth helps bosmer in trials or dungeons? xDD
While they're not going to split between pvp/pve I know it's hard, but someone mb want to play bosmer in pve (why not??)

And stealth detect is awesome for trials? Do tell!

BlueRaven

TankHealz2015 wrote: »

From the response, I'd guess they plan to develop a DLC involving lots of stealth NPC/mobs... so probably stealth detection will be a good thing in the future PvE.

Still curious to the racials of Bosmer vs Khajiit; why not something like this:

Bosmer = reduced sneaking radius by 3 and increased stealth detection radius by 5 amount.

Khajiit = increased sneak movement speed by 3 and increased detection radius by 5 amount

adjust the numbers to be balance and fair... but you get the point.

This is true, but we don't know when. It could be soon, it could be a few years from now. Anyway we are playing in the here and now, and future plans can change.

ruikkarikun

Ratzkifal wrote: »

But yes, while I do think that focusing on the good parts is important, when you take the stealth out of Bosmer, that's kind of a big deal that not even BiS status could fix. Or would you like if Altmer suddenly had no magicka passives anymore?

I can admit I forgot about thieves/brotherhood DLC and RPing there:)
And Altmer had sustain passive which was changed for stamina, so same insane thing, well idk what we can do here.

D0PAMINE

Stealthing is easy on all races. I've yet to see someone complain about getting detected easily. The stealth detection replacement however, is nothing special and needs to be changed. No way im race changing my Bosmer.

thedude33

In order to get beyond this, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some classes equally, we must treat them differently.

Left4Daud

Stealth certainly has uses outside of the Dark Brotherhood / Thieves Guild DLCs from a content design standpoint. One of the most recent dungeons features plenty of opportunity for sneaking and is even a required mechanic in one of the boss fights! Good luck beating Tarcyr (or getting some dungeon achievements and collectibles) without sneaking in the March of Sacrifices!

Stealth and sneaking are systems that reach much much farther than the justice system and it’s been tiring hearing people all month say that the reduced detection radius we are fighting for is just as useless as the increased stealth detection in PVE, which is just objectively untrue.

max_only

thedude33 wrote: »

In order to get beyond this, we must first take account of race. There is no other way. And in order to treat some classes equally, we must treat them differently.

Badumtish

max_only

Bosmer players: please put back the 3m stealth radius passive. It means a lot to us for several reasons.

Zos and Class Reps:

You parse just as good as everyone else!

Bosmer players:

What if I told you that isn’t the topic of discussion.

Left4Daud

ZOS “Our goal with this racial balance pass is to increase viability of race choice for areas of the game.”

Cuts available races with a sneak specialization in half.

Yo where’s that increase though?

Honestly what they should have done is give the 3 meter stealth bonus to Bosmer, Khajiit, Dunmer and Argonian. That would have achieved the goal of increasing player race options, and all of the above races have lore backing up an affinity for stealth in some capacity.

Left4Daud

Oh this is another good one

Players - “Why aren’t there fun PVE sets for like harvesting, fishing, treasure hunting etc...

ZOS - “We don’t want players carrying around a bag of special sets just to participate in aspects of the game.”

ZOS takes away stealth from one of the races that has always had an affinity for it.

Players - Dude why are you taking our stealth away?

ZOS - Don’t worry you can get some of those stealth bonuses back by carrying around a few special sets in your bag...

These guys just can’t stick to a design philosophy lol

BlueRaven

Anyone else dreading even reading the patch notes?

Jaraal

So, bye, bye, Mr. Bosmer and I
Rode my Indrik to the refuge but the guard root was nigh
Them good old boys were smoking skooma, so high
Saying "This will be the day that I die
This will be the day that I die..."