Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Masel

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Funny how some people defend it and bring up statistics which are flawed.

Try to do the math with recovery. They want diversity and play as you want right? Yet, they nerf some aspects and builds massively.

Again, they try to fix something that isn't (respectively only slightly) broken.

Fancy explaining why statistics are flawed? The devs have seen the ones i posted... I dont claim for everything to be 100% accurate to the last decimal, but in terms of comparison, what i posted should do the trick.

eirinnpryderi

Khajiit, Orc and Argonian new passives need to be tweaked, Orc having only +500 Stam +500 Health and Khajiit having +750 in all 3 seems too few compared to others....also the total immunity should be reduced from 100% to 50% because Argonians will shrug Nightblades, Bosmers will laugh at stam DKs and Dunmers will basically feel nothing from Mag DKs (which are pretty awful)

The only 1 Token its a swindle too, also being only race instead race and name, because most of us tie name to the race we chose to give it more identity to our character

BackAndAngry

Playing this game is getting really expensive with 15+ chars
Rip

Galarthor

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

SodanTok

eirinnpryderi wrote: »

Khajiit, Orc and Argonian new passives need to be tweaked, Orc having only +500 Stam +500 Health and Khajiit having +750 in all 3 seems too few compared to others....also the total immunity should be reduced from 100% to 50% because Argonians will shrug Nightblades, Bosmers will laugh at stam DKs and Dunmers will basically feel nothing from Mag DKs (which are pretty awful)

The only 1 Token its a swindle too, also being only race instead race and name, because most of us tie name to the race we chose to give it more identity to our character

Immunitites are to status effects (those small dots from poison, fire or the major defile debuff along the 300dmg hit from disease). They will feel 99% of the disease/poison/fire damage...

Unit117

I’m confused for Breton. What am I supposed to excel at? It’s magic based but you are still outdamaged by high elves.

We get a max magicka nerf. And loose 2000 spell resistance for only 100 more recovery. With only a 4percent increase to reduced cost. Running out of magicka was never even really a issue. This just decreases magicka tanking for us too doesn’t it?

I don’t see what we are supposed to be useful for except to still being second to everything else. Also none of the racial passives really screams “yeah being a Breton is awesome” like the other races. It’s like we got the last pick of racial passives 🙁

sly007

No free race change tokens? Every player should get at least 4 free race change tokens. Who the hell cares about free respec when you can to race change anyways.

jcaceresw

I am now currently considering my high elf to a dark elf or a breton. Glad the PTS will be next week so I will test which one of them should be my next race. I still consider my high elf to be better than the other two races but is best to test those changes in combat.

Vemeroth

brandonv516 wrote: »

Just let us choose our own 3 racial passives from the entire pool and let people be creative FFS.

Then people can choose their race based on how they want to look, not the bonuses.

I'm in enthusiastic support of this or something similar. I never quite understood the logic behind static racial passives in the first place. You have a universe in which every race has their own quirk, but at the same time, these races have various institutions that do not conform to said quirks. I would much rather sacrifice the "feel" of a race if it meant that I can have true freedom.

FrancisCrawford

aaronwilliams017b14_ESO wrote: »

The high elf change from recovery to needing to use a class ability is a terrible idea, 575 mag/stamina restore only every 6 sec depending on higher resource is completely useless campared to skill cost. And why give back stamina option when all other passives are magicka based makes no sense. Leave the recovery on high elf since Breton got to keep resistance with added magicka recovery and increased cost reduction to all abilities. This would create a more balanced option of either sustain/damage or sustain/tankier cost reduction.

Breton's spell resistance was and remains useless in PvE, niche scenarios aside. So having some other Breton passive be really good is ... balance.

Besides, how much magicka/second does one go through? 1300ish for a decent player? 1700ish for a solidly knowledgeable endgamer on a good team? 7% reduction isn't all THAT much, even if it winds up more like a true 8% via subtractive stacking.

Xvorg

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

Galarthor

Unit117 wrote: »

I’m confused for Breton. What am I supposed to excel at? It’s magic based but you are still outdamaged by high elves.

We get a max magicka nerf. And loose 2000 spell resistance for only 100 more recovery. With only a 4percent increase to reduced cost. Running out of magicka was never even really a issue. This just decreases magicka tanking for us too doesn’t it?

I don’t see what we are supposed to be useful for except to still being second to everything else. Also none of the racial passives really screams “yeah being a Breton is awesome” like the other races. It’s like we got the last pick of racial passives 🙁

That is a very narrow-minded view.
Due to the 3 to 5 times higher regeneration when compared to Altmers, Bretons can use more Spell Damage on Gear whereas Altmers will have to compensate using Spell Cost Reduction or Magicka Recovery Gear

sevomd69

Epicasballs wrote: »

RIP Dark elves.... I literally just race changed my sorc, dk and magblade into dark elves from high elves. There is no reason to be dark elf anymore. High elf is the clear BiS mag dps race. Glad I waited on the magplar. Can we get refunds on recently changed characters. 1 token is borderline offensive.... it's honestly the very least you could do. I don't mean that nicely.

That said I actually like the other changes. I don't see why you did dark elves dirty though. Better stam races and better mag races represented in these changes make dark elves useless.

My dk was a high elf for so long. I finally pull the trigger on a race change last week and boom... not even magdk wants to be a dark elf anymore. Why? The flavor of being a dark elf is gone. Flame damage. We bought into that race for the flame damage. Not to be a hybrid master of none... we were masters of flame.


@ZOS_GinaBruno y'all need to issue refunds on tokens for ALL previously race changed characters. This 1 token BS is BS!

You knew race changes were coming...and you did it anyway....really can;t fault anyone else...imo...

FrancisCrawford

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

• Increases experience gain in Bow Skill Line by 15%, decreases fall damage taken by 10% → No changes
• Y’ffre’s Endurance: 21% Stamina Recovery → Increases your Stamina Recovery by 258.
• Resist Affliction: 6% Max Stamina and 1485 Poison and Disease Resistance → Increases your Max Stamina by 2000 and your Poison Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Poisoned status effect.
• Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.
  • A quick note on why we changed the Stealthy passive: Previously this passive was shared between Khajiit and Wood Elf, and didn’t help them feel distinct enough from each other. Additionally, since Sneaking isn’t a universal mechanic to the game (many enemies in Tamriel can’t be bothered sneaking about!), we wanted to take away some of the focus from the passive and build that into their other passives instead. We still want to support that game mechanic however, so we kept parts of each the Wood Elf’s and the Khajiit’s version of these passives.

Developer Comment

The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats. Quick to react and well versed in the poisons of nature, they can outlast and outwit their opponents. These traits are demonstrated with their natural speed boost when tactfully engaging combat, and their unparalleled Stamina Recovery.

Surely Hunter's Eye would reduce your detection radius in Stealth, not increase it. Not only are Wood Elves the smallest race in the game, who in their right mind would choose to make themselves more detectable?

Most of us are reading it as the ability to detect nearby stealthed opponents more easily, in a game in which almost no nearby opponents are stealthed.

FiskarnasRike

Taking dunmer completely out of the race for magicka dps is criminal.

MaxJrFTW

sevomd69 wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

RIP Dark elves.... I literally just race changed my sorc, dk and magblade into dark elves from high elves. There is no reason to be dark elf anymore. High elf is the clear BiS mag dps race. Glad I waited on the magplar. Can we get refunds on recently changed characters. 1 token is borderline offensive.... it's honestly the very least you could do. I don't mean that nicely.

That said I actually like the other changes. I don't see why you did dark elves dirty though. Better stam races and better mag races represented in these changes make dark elves useless.

My dk was a high elf for so long. I finally pull the trigger on a race change last week and boom... not even magdk wants to be a dark elf anymore. Why? The flavor of being a dark elf is gone. Flame damage. We bought into that race for the flame damage. Not to be a hybrid master of none... we were masters of flame.


@ZOS_GinaBruno y'all need to issue refunds on tokens for ALL previously race changed characters. This 1 token BS is BS!

You knew race changes were coming...and you did it anyway....really can;t fault anyone else...imo...

For real. Who would race change when they announced like a month ago that racial changes were coming? Oh nvm, that guy. LOL

Tasear

Galarthor wrote: »

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

Really?

Emma_Overload

SodanTok wrote: »

This thread is goldmine of wrong assumotions based on not understanding how the game works, what is useful and what is not or even being incapable of math.

I read tens of post saying khajiit was nerfed when they received only buffs. Sure their sustain is still bad but still, they will do more damage ane have better sustain than on live now. There is no way to spin getting more stamina and stamina recovery on top of getting everything in magicka version as a nerf.

Overall I like these changes. Bosmer got buffed nicely for pvp, but comparing it to other races it is now easily one of worst races for pve. Redguards imo got much more sustain when they should have been untouched at best. Orcs got very good pve buffs to make them good option between khajiit and redguard.

I agree with you completely. Most races got nice buffs, and the other ones didn't get nerfed badly at all, just brought in line. I see at least 4 viable races for my Sorc now, and none of the others would be bad at all. Isn't that the kind of result we were hoping for?

I really think ZOS deserves praise for using math to properly balance races, but apparently a lot of "forum-crafters" don't like math, LOL.

wistala

I sure hope someone considers my post. 7 out of my 15 characters are magicka dark elves. I only played dark elves through Oblivion and Skyrim. My main is a dark elf magicka dragonknight that I’ve had since console launch. I am a dark elf and fire mage at heart.

Maybe these dark elf changes aren’t that major, but I do hope you seriously consider tweaking. I feel like a lot of people also choose dark elves for their fire damage and mage skills. It’s part of the aesthetic, gameplay, and lore. Please don’t change the fundamentals of my dark elves. Please restore fire damage. Maybe add a little more magicka too

Thank you

InvitationNotFound

SodanTok wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

It will be nerfed, that's why you won't get any fancy calculations or comments on it.

Let's just ignore the nerfs and call everything buffs (while it isn't). So we can all feel good and be happy... at least until the patch is released.

So there should be calculations for every specific scenario there is? Just because someone stacks 3000 stam regen in PVP we should call it nerf even tho 99% of people dont do that?

Any PVP build stacking regen on bosmer will now receive at minimum 490 regen. To match that (on live) one has to stack 2333 raw regen so fully buffed run over 4k regen build.

Some ppl stack Stamina, some stack weapon damage and other do it with recovery.
While stamina / weapon damage might be only a small nerf, in case of recovery it can be a huge one. There are builds that are going for high recovery and they are nerfed (besides everything else) more than the other builds. Just because you don't care or have no idea why you should go for that doesn't mean that this has to apply for everyone else.

The claim this is for "freedom" and you can play as you want is a joke. Races haven't been a huge issue at all. Some minor tweaks would have been sufficient. But i guess this is a good way to sell a few race change tokens (and for some RP guys a few name change tokens). And less work than fixing Cyrodiil i guess...

LuquidSabotage

So with the race Passive change, are we going to get free race change tokens? Because I’ve oaoreadt paid multiple times already for race changes so I had the better option for passives. Now that theyre changing , it was kind of a waste of money seeing how I’m going to have to change again

Cundu_Ertur

x48rph wrote: »

Omg, no. Why would you change the stealthy passive for bosmers. Being sneaky is the heart and sole of being bosmer. Hunting, right of theft, ect.. all require being sneaky. Increased detection radius is useless garbage that doesn't even fit. Not to mention that the increased damage from stealth was the only real reason to roll one for pvp..... Please recosider this.

This comment makes me sad because I cannot tag it insightful, agree, AND awesome.

I would prefer something like "Hunter's Eye: The thick forests of Valenwood have imprinted the importance of the ability to hunt in the Wood Elf race, and as such they have a natural adeptness for detecting potential threats and for seeing ways to use terrain to their advantage. +1/2/3m bonus to detecting hidden threats, +1/2/3m to avoiding detection, and (EITHER)2/6/10% reduction in cost for roll-dodge (OR) minor expedition for 2/3/4s after performing a roll-dodge."

After reading other comments I have also come to see that the movement bonus after a roll dodge is actually not that weak IF it were to stack with the existing bow passive "Hasty Retreat." So either Bosmer could have an easier time of doing roll-dodging (which fits lore since they are supposed to be nimble) or they could get the movement bonus in a way that would not stack with Hasty Retreat. I figured the roll-dodge cost reduction as being two bits of armors' worth, maybe that could be tweaked a bit.

Note also that this would still leave the Khajiit as the absolute best at hiding with a 5m bonus to avoiding detection with Wood Elves as second best with 3m, but would give the Bosmer an advantage to seeing others in stealth that would be unique.

Galarthor

Tasear wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

Really?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5736318#Comment_5736318

In short, Bretons get around 625 Magicka Recovery, while Altmer get 191 at best, if they manage to activate a class ability in exactly 6 second intervals - which they most likely will not.

Caff32

Why do Bretons get 7% magic cost reduction when their stamina counterpart, Redguard, get 8% stam reduction? The percentage should be the same.

Khajiits are still underwhelming. The bonus health recovery is terrible and their flat stat increases are too little.

I'd love to know the math behind what the crit bonus averages out to be in terms of raw weapon damage. Is the 8% crit chance on average going to be more or less than the flat 258 weapon damage other races get?

SodanTok

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

It will be nerfed, that's why you won't get any fancy calculations or comments on it.

Let's just ignore the nerfs and call everything buffs (while it isn't). So we can all feel good and be happy... at least until the patch is released.

So there should be calculations for every specific scenario there is? Just because someone stacks 3000 stam regen in PVP we should call it nerf even tho 99% of people dont do that?

Any PVP build stacking regen on bosmer will now receive at minimum 490 regen. To match that (on live) one has to stack 2333 raw regen so fully buffed run over 4k regen build.

Some ppl stack Stamina, some stack weapon damage and other do it with recovery.
While stamina / weapon damage might be only a small nerf, in case of recovery it can be a huge one. There are builds that are going for high recovery and they are nerfed (besides everything else) more than the other builds. Just because you don't care or have no idea why you should go for that doesn't mean that this has to apply for everyone else.

The claim this is for "freedom" and you can play as you want is a joke. Races haven't been a huge issue at all. Some minor tweaks would have been sufficient. But i guess this is a good way to sell a few race change tokens (and for some RP guys a few name change tokens). And less work than fixing Cyrodiil i guess...

Everything you said is false. There is almost no situation where recovery changes result in nerfs even on builds that actually stack regen. And even then only on races that werent good for regen before. As I demonstrated, one has to go for over 4k buffed regen on their bosmers on live to even match the amount they will be getting from bosmer in new patch.

InvitationNotFound

SodanTok wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

It will be nerfed, that's why you won't get any fancy calculations or comments on it.

Let's just ignore the nerfs and call everything buffs (while it isn't). So we can all feel good and be happy... at least until the patch is released.

So there should be calculations for every specific scenario there is? Just because someone stacks 3000 stam regen in PVP we should call it nerf even tho 99% of people dont do that?

Any PVP build stacking regen on bosmer will now receive at minimum 490 regen. To match that (on live) one has to stack 2333 raw regen so fully buffed run over 4k regen build.

Some ppl stack Stamina, some stack weapon damage and other do it with recovery.
While stamina / weapon damage might be only a small nerf, in case of recovery it can be a huge one. There are builds that are going for high recovery and they are nerfed (besides everything else) more than the other builds. Just because you don't care or have no idea why you should go for that doesn't mean that this has to apply for everyone else.

The claim this is for "freedom" and you can play as you want is a joke. Races haven't been a huge issue at all. Some minor tweaks would have been sufficient. But i guess this is a good way to sell a few race change tokens (and for some RP guys a few name change tokens). And less work than fixing Cyrodiil i guess...

Everything you said is false. There is almost no situation where recovery changes result in nerfs even on builds that actually stack regen. And even then only on races that werent good for regen before. As I demonstrated, one has to go for over 4k buffed regen on their bosmers on live to even match the amount they will be getting from bosmer in new patch.

You didn't realize i'm talking about more than 4k regen, did you?

Dont_do_drugs

Galarthor wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

Really?

Yes.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5736318#Comment_5736318

In short, Bretons get around 625 Magicka Recovery, while Altmer get 191 at best, if they manage to activate a class ability in exactly 6 second intervals - which they most likely will not.

it doesnt matter, gala. since u can change bufffood and glyphs on weapons, if ure having high recovery u go for other glyphs and blue bufffood, if ure having low recovery u just change something about bufffood (withmother) or glyph. at the end only pts tests will show wether breton or altmer will be ahead.

martijnlv40

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

You're forgetting Shacklebreaker and Twice-Born-Star, those are the only other 'viable' hybrid sets.

Das_Phyllis

I don't understand why there would be a difference between:

DUNMER - Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.

ORC - Brawny: 6% Max Health and Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.

1250 vs 500 for the same previous percentage?

amir412

Masel wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Sorry - I must be confused, just thought I'd ask - 20% in what CP tree? What does affect max stamina there?

Investing into cp points increases your stats. Investing 100 Points in the blue, red and green tree give a 20% boost to them.

Check this out if you wanna know more the background of ESO combat:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

The final result was already with CP, but ill try to do it again.

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

@Masel Send u a message buddy, thanks in advance