Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

ZeroXFF

Aluneth wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

High Elf mitigation is tied to an awkward condition. Make it proc the same as the resource regen and last for the length of the cooldown on the resource regen, and we'll have something usable for tanks. As it stands right now, High Elves are only good as mag DDs.

They're the BEST at mag DDs. There is no need to give them more buffs, unless you're prepared to take away something from them.

They would have to be a lot better because that's literally all they are good at. With these changes they are barely any better than khajiit even at that, and those are gods compared to high elves in regards to anything other than dummy smashing on mag DDs.

Even for healers high elves would be a poor choice with this.

Emma_Overload

Caff32 wrote: »

Why do Bretons get 7% magic cost reduction when their stamina counterpart, Redguard, get 8% stam reduction? The percentage should be the same.

Khajiits are still underwhelming. The bonus health recovery is terrible and their flat stat increases are too little.

I'd love to know the math behind what the crit bonus averages out to be in terms of raw weapon damage. Is the 8% crit chance on average going to be more or less than the flat 258 weapon damage other races get?

Bretons get reduction on ALL magicka spells, Redguards only get reduction on WEAPON skills.

Davadin

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Nord

• Increases Experience gain in Two Handed Skill Line by 15%, 15 extra minutes on drink buffs → No changes
• Stalwart: 6% Max Stamina and 20% Health Recovery → Increases your Max Stamina by 1500. When you take damage, you gain 5 Ultimate. This effect can occur once every 10 seconds.
• Resist Frost: 9% Max Health and 2079 Cold Resistance → Increases your Max Health by 1000 and your Cold Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Chilled status effect.
• Rugged: 6% damage reduction → Increases your Physical and Spell Resistance by 3960.

Developer Comment

The hardy Nords reigning from Skyrim are well accustom to the hardships of life. With a bonus to constitution and their ability to shrug off the bitter cold, they can soak up immense amounts of damage. Their ability to snap back from punishment is highlighted with their new Ultimate gain passive. We changed their flat damage reduction to Resistances, so it better scaled with all playstyles, and allowed for different build paths than it did before.

Hold up, friends.

As a class by itself, these looks good.

But what can make Nords stand out compared to the other (also newly revised) classes?

5 ulti every 10 second?

Immune to Chill?


For a "hardy" race, it sure feels like we're a jack of all classes, yet master of none. So.... no change from before. Maybe this time we won't be the kid who got picked last in dodgeballs all the time...

MurderMostFoul

After the changes are implemented, there should be a brief period where you can purchase race change tokens for gold.

Edit: perhaps with a Max of 10 purchasable with gold

Carbonised

@Masel Dunmer has been one of the top races for a magdk, competing with only Altmer, and with these changes, both Altmer and Breton will be leagues above a Dunmer for a magdk, with probably even a khajiit beating a dunmer for best race for magdk - and you try and downplay this as something else than a friggin huge nerf, from top race for the class and spec to maybe 4th best?
Hybrid my a$$, in what remote scenario will 600 health and more weapon damage help my magdk in any pve scenario whatsoever?

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO

Dracane wrote: »

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO wrote: »

Decided to blow 27k gold to do a real world test on my Altmer comparing the flat value changes to just Gift of Magnus ->> New Syrabane's Boon Passive. These tests were done wearing the exact same gear (All light, Earthgore Monster Set, Spell Power Cure Body, and Moondancer Jewelry and Moondancer Fire Staff) and capped CP points applied (35 Elfborn, 75 Elemental Expert, 10 Spell Erosion, 41 Staff Expert, 34 Master at Arms, 75 Thaumaturge, 30 Ironclad, 20 spell shield, 30 light armor focus, 30 thick skinned, 75 hardy, 75 elemental defender, 10 bastion, 35 warlord, 45 sprinter, 75 arcanist, 20 tumbling, 20 shadow ward).


CP Magicka with 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

34796

CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

31689


So in total = 3107 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive wearing the exact same gear and exact same CP setup.


Non CP Magicka without 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

29592

Non CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of MAgnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

26950



So in total = 2642 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive in non cp campaign wearing the exact same gear.


From what I can tell, in no way you slice it be it CP or non CP, that flat 2000 Magicka change that is coming for Altmer is a nerf. Not a monstrously big one, but still a nerf.

Just wanted to put this test out there for anyone who hasn't done it yet or doesn't want to spend the money to test things out.

For me it's even worse. I gain 4213 Magicka from Gift of Magnus in Cyrodiil pvp. In pve and IC it will be so much more.
I would need over 100% magicka amplify if I wanted to get compareable numbers and nobody has that. I also compared the 4% elemental damage to 258 spell damage with all buffs applied.

Force pulse deals 45 more damage with 258 SD as opposed to 4% elemental damage. Due to the 2k magicka that I will loose, it will do even less than what it does now.

And they say that flat numbers portrait a BUFF in MANY cases ? Darling, it does not do that in any case. Maybe for people in white gear, probably not even then.

Yeah, I'm wondering where some of these people are getting their numbers from. Maybe I'm doing the math wrong or something but I legitimately don't see a buff, especially after actually changing and testing the percent changes in a direct in game scenario.

Davadin

LLawlietW wrote: »

Why was redguard buffed? how does that make sense when they are already considered the best race for stamina dps. and then the second best option khajiit gets nerfed. i just dont understand how that is supposed to make sense at all. now khajiit has more health recovery than stam... but yea lets buff adrenaline rush

Yes.

I want each class has a little nudge towards a certain role.


Like Nords.

But Redguard already got SHOVED into stamina DPS, yet this time around now they got beaten while they're down....

Emmagoldman

I actually like it so far. It will be cool to see everything tested

technohic

Minno wrote: »

Didn't think it would happen but Nord got a Nerf against bleed builds lol

Yeah somehow it feels like nord was nerfed and orc and redgaurd buffed. There goes my synergy with steed.

MerlinPendragon

I have a MagDK Dark Elf that I had made into a fire mage and I am very disappointed with the changes here. I am basically getting a nerf, with the exception of immunity to burning effect. My build was based around fire damage abilities, so by change that specific passive to be more broad based, it will severely hurt my DPS output. I think this will end up forcing me to change the toon to a high elf, despite that my MagSorc is already a high elf. I wish the Dark Elf had a magicka increase instead of health in the fire resistance buff.

Overall, I am satisfied with most of the changes. Nords are now a true tank race. Most others were moved up to par in one way or another. Orcs are a little odd, but I didnt play any of those.

I hope they do a second look at dark elves. I dont know any stamina dps builds or tanks that play this race, so to try to have passives that make it a hybrid really doesnt help anyone who currently has a dark elf.

Fvh09NL

I wanted to point out a contradicting point concerning diversity and mag dps, but this perfectly sums op my concerns. Don't make races hybrid, let players Who like that make them so by choosing gear. Delete the health buff and weapon damage buff, add a fire spell damage buff much like silks of the sun.

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam

While I am super excited with changes that will create for variation amongst races, the changes to Dark Elves (specifically when compared against High Elves) don't actually help race diversity at all, but rather eliminate it.

As far as Magicka DPS is concerned right now on live, Altmer and Dunmer are more or less neck in neck. Depending on class/build one can edge out the other but they are a good example of different but equal.

With the proposed changes, that parity is gone and Altmer becomes the de facto choice with Dunmer lagging far behind.

Currently in live Dark Elves get 9% extra magicka, with High Elves having 10%. So only a 1% difference.
1250 max magicka vs 2000 however is a staggering difference, and the extra stamina and health do not do anything to make up for it.

The Dunmer design here seems to be aimed at building a hybrid, as its stats are split between stam and magicka (and a bit of health even). Meaning its not going to excel at anything. Hybrid stam/mag builds just aren't viable, they don't work. A player has to dedicate to one or the other... but doing so will mean choosing Dunmer wastes half the benefit of these passives, and gets less overall.

I ask you please re-visit the Dunmer passives without trying to pigeonhole them into a hybrid, jack of all trades. All this will do is make them an inferior race for any one role.

Emmagoldman

Nord might be really fun as an ult machine but maybe thats were it would be limited to. I would set my nord stamdem cenetered on permafrost or set it to magden to spam the healing ult. What would you add to it @Minno?

Xvorg

wistala wrote: »

I sure hope someone considers my post. 7 out of my 15 characters are magicka dark elves. I only played dark elves through Oblivion and Skyrim. My main is a dark elf magicka dragonknight that I’ve had since console launch. I am a dark elf and fire mage at heart.

Maybe these dark elf changes aren’t that major, but I do hope you seriously consider tweaking. I feel like a lot of people also choose dark elves for their fire damage and mage skills. It’s part of the aesthetic, gameplay, and lore. Please don’t change the fundamentals of my dark elves. Please restore fire damage. Maybe add a little more magicka too

Thank you

I prefer 1 thousand times the extra spell dmg than the extra fire dmg. Extra spell dmg is useful not only as damage dealer but also for healing. And the extra wpn dmg is great in a race that has always be able to use swords and bows with the same proficency than staves and spells.

If ZoS encourages hybrids, dunmer is the way to go, but I really doubt they will do that this patch. That's my main concern at the moment. Losing extra elemental dmg is no big deal

xXRickyBobby89Xx

This team of developers does such an AWESOME job with this game that I trust them to do an AWESOME job with race changes as well. Similar to how they awarded champion points to compensate players with excess veteran ranks they should compensate players with excess end game leveled toons. If not players forced to spend 27,000 crowns to keep toons updated and competitive will feel like the change is a money grab.

goldenarcher1

Lol,i only have 3 chars. 2 bosmer and 1 Khajiit.

Feel like i've been hit with a rubber nerf-bat,but will need testing.

MrTtheDK

@ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_RichLambert

Gold Stars on the racial passives. I like the vision. 1 Race Change per account when the majority of players who min max have many alts not so much. Can thought be put into maybe 50% tokens to the amount of max level toons someone has.

Leogon

Das_Phyllis wrote: »

I don't understand why there would be a difference between:

DUNMER - Dynamic: 6% Max Stamina and Magicka → Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.

ORC - Brawny: 6% Max Health and Stamina → Increases your Max Health and Stamina by 500.

1250 vs 500 for the same previous percentage?

lol This one must be a typo 'cuz there's no way a Dunmer and his/her frail body could hit harder than an Orc.

@ZOS_Gilliam Please tell me this is a typo.

Iruil_ESO

So Khajiit would be even worse and Redguard would be even better.

Xvorg

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

You're forgetting Shacklebreaker and Twice-Born-Star, those are the only other 'viable' hybrid sets.

Read again, please. I already mentioned shackle and amberplasm. TBS is a really bad for hybrids because you have to spread the bonuses. A traditional class can use the 2 bonuses for a much better effect (wpn dmg and extra stam for example beats wpn and spell dmg)

Dont_do_drugs

Carbonised wrote: »

@Masel Dunmer has been one of the top races for a magdk, competing with only Altmer, and with these changes, both Altmer and Breton will be leagues above a Dunmer for a magdk, with probably even a khajiit beating a dunmer for best race for magdk - and you try and downplay this as something else than a friggin huge nerf, from top race for the class and spec to maybe 4th best?
Hybrid my a$$, in what remote scenario will 600 health and more weapon damage help my magdk in any pve scenario whatsoever?

@Masel and the rest of those, responsible for this dunmer aka mdk desaster. pls give us something as exchange.
make mag dk great again. pls......

Eareindur

Overall, I like the changes, but there’s something I find really odd: Spell Resistance of Nords (3960) would be more than 70% greater than that of Bretons (which would be reduced from 3960 to 2310). This status is not remotely supported by lore nor race traits of any Elder Scrolls game and is even more difficult to understand given the way it would be achieved, nerfing a race that is not by far one of the very best races of the game.

Though I don’t know if it would better to increase the suggested SR for the Bretons or reduce it for the Nords, it doesn’t make any sense as it is proposed now.

Minno

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Nord might be really fun as an ult machine but maybe thats were it would be limited to. I would set my nord stamdem cenetered on permafrost or set it to magden to spam the healing ult. What would you add to it @Minno?

Could run it a few ways. Armor it gets is basically between 2-3 protective traits on jewels. If you pair that with light armor/medium, you can roll other traits for extra dmg and I dare say extra dmg set.

Definitely bloodspawn for the extra ult regen and stam regen. the armor nord gets is about 7-8% mitigation and that's like a free 100% uptime on major resolve/ward. Only issue is they kinda lost their max mag, so if you wanted to swap to mag build, you would need northern storm over permafrost.

edit:
nord never had max mag, my bad

Carbonised

Xvorg wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

You're forgetting Shacklebreaker and Twice-Born-Star, those are the only other 'viable' hybrid sets.

Read again, please. I already mentioned shackle and amberplasm. TBS is a really bad for hybrids because you have to spread the bonuses. A traditional class can use the 2 bonuses for a much better effect (wpn dmg and extra stam for example beats wpn and spell dmg)

Nothing about that is even remotely relevant for pve, where Dunmer is lagging behind at least 3 other races when it comes to being BiS for anything mag dd related. Even for the iconic magdk spec, where Dunmer could at least stand toe to toe with Altmers since game launch, it will now be objectively outclassed by Altmer, Breton and most likely Khajiit as well. They have in effect reduced Dunmer from a viable race to pureply being an RP joke.

Derra

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

I would love to get insight if i forgot something in this calculation, i was testing this on a DK knight, beside undauted, i couldnt recall another % max stat buff.

Did you add 20% stats from cp? @amir412

GarnetFire17

Did Wood Elf really need to be nerfed so hard? And Kahijit too? So basically Wood Elf, and Nord are still not worth playing as always, and now you can through Khaajit in there too.

CleymenZero

I'm glad a lot of people are voicing their discontent on the forum, if only all the people that I see on Discord would also post here, we could see some correction before the patch lands.

I take issue with the changes on Dunmer and Redguard.

Redguard had max stam and sustain going for it and with these changes, it pretty much has sustain left and even that has been nerfed. I still think it should be fine to sustain in trials but it remains to be seen. Damage granted through max stam also remains to be seen.

As for Dunmer, it has well... Nothing as it can't beat any stam race or any mag race. Why not make the passives really strong in BOTH to allow the choice of stam or magicka and not mildly good in both. Right now, it seems that it renders him somewhat useless VS other race so I wouldn't consider it a balance change but a clear nerf.

As for race change token purchases. I can't help but feel like this is a cash grab ordered by the executive team especially when you see the 16% off vs last year's 50% off. At 16%, let's just say it's not a discount but a semblance of a gesture on ZOS's part.

I will not be paying for race changes so when push comes to shove, I'll consider putting my money into another game.

Minno

technohic wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Didn't think it would happen but Nord got a Nerf against bleed builds lol

Yeah somehow it feels like nord was nerfed and orc and redgaurd buffed. There goes my synergy with steed.

Use wood elf if you wanted to use steed; aim for the speed not health recovery. The 20% is unnamed so it will maybe stack with other speed sources.

Wildberryjack

Can you make more abilities have a Stamina morph? It would be nice to use the CLASS abilities for Stamina builds instead of always having to go with the weapon abilities due to there being no Stamina morphs.

The hybrid races getting buffs to the "off" resource is nice though, it will help. I have a Kitty NB with a hybrid build, stam one bar and mag the other. Still, I'd like to use more class abilities on him but they don't have a Stamina morph, sooooooooooooo yeah.

Vyseman

And for this HUGE Changes we got only 1 Racechange Token.. so.. i have 8 Chars, become 1 free Token but i have to buy 17,5k Crowns for my other chars.. realy zos?

Derra

Tasear wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

Really?

Yes by far.

Ofc it depends on how many spells you cast and how expensive they are at base - but the 7% cost reduction passive is worth between 350 and 450 mag recovery in stat sheet.
The 100 base regen breton gets will be almost enough to put breton on the same sustain as altmer with their passive.