Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

carlos424

joshfong wrote: »

Interesting. For the most part, I like what I see. Still seems like Altmer might have the upper hand for magicka DPS over Dunmer though, but I'll wait for testing for a proper conclusion.

Ya, no question. If these changes go live, there is no good reason to be a Dunmer for magicka-based dps, or really anything else that I can see. Lol.

Solariken

Umm I don't hate these changes but I feel you need to offer more than 1 free race change. How about discount race changes to 100 Crowns for 3 days?

Sindarin

R.I.P. for: ''we want to play a race we want to not we have to''. in pve for stam and mag: DARK ELF MASTER RACE!!!

Calotron

Overall I think the changes will be healthy for the game and will add to class/race diversity which I think is cool.

People will be against change when it effects them in a negative way, but as with all things, change is the only constant.

I'm fairly new to the game so I might not know the main meta when it comes to min maxing but I'm sure if there are large flaws within these notes then ZoS will adjust them.

St_Anger

Please reconsider the Dunmer/Darkelf passives! There is literally no reason to pick a Darkelf over a Altmer for magicka damage dealers. Even the Khajit will probably be better Magicka DDs as the Altmer now. Also the increase in fire damage was such a unique and interesting part of the Darkelf, I would love to continue seeing that (maybe as flat value like in the "silks of the sun" set).

ZarkingFrued

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Can we please start moving away from the need to use actual consumables to take advantage of Resourceful? I was hoping this whole rework would address this problem because it's still the only passive that requires you to go out of your way and spend gold (or time farming) to constantly take advantage of it. Having it be a sustain tool is great and all, but having it come with an out-of-pocket expense makes it extremely costly the longer it's used.

You should be running optimal potions for your build that are almost always used on cooldown for each build anyhow. Its universal. Doing anything else is just hurting you.

Merlin13KAGL

This is a buff to lower level players (the flat stat will be felt more at lower levels) and an attempt at eloquently using lore to justify the changes.

Using BiS gear as the baseline, once again, is part of the problem, not the solution.

A better way to go would be to allow Racials to have morph options. This would truly allow diversity for races and roles, and could be balanced according to the ultimate "buff" that the morph would provide.

Lore, genetics, call it what you like, while any race might have a certain advanced standing in a particular area, any individual would be able to train and make gains in non-gifted areas. They may not be as high a gain as another race, but it would still be an option.

And one race change per account is nothing more than a kick in the face to the ones that have invested the most, whether in time for all the original base game slots, and/or money for additional slots.

This change isn't directed at longevity of the game. It's directed to benefit new players, which is clearly the target $$$ audience, and has been for quite some time.

Not unexpected. Still disappointed.

smfh

Xvorg

Funny thing? ZoS decides to go full lore with the race changes in the same patch they deliver necromancer...

Inconsistency at its best.

HatchetHaro

Masel wrote: »

i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Your charts show a glaring issue in terms of damage output right now. Argonians and Nords are basically at the bottom when it comes to DPS, and the only thing Argonians have for them in terms of Magicka is their sustain, and even then that is just meh.

Basically, the gaps are still too high.

Argonians used to be good in terms of utility, and these nerfs have brought their utility down to be more on par with other races, but their damage output still needs a buff. I've posted my own suggestions on page 10 of this thread, but the gist of it is that Argonians can afford to have more damage-oriented passives without affecting their utility. Nords too.

FrancisCrawford

marius_buys wrote: »

It should be 1 race change token per character, period.

Name/race change, please.

Otherwise, I'd settle for something less extreme than you're suggesting. E.g., 1 free immediately, a few more free as log-in rewards, and a discount of AT LEAST 50% at buying more from the Crown Store. (Note: That discount has to be DEEP or there will be a lot of anger.)

JinMori

It's not too bad, i don;t really like flat max stam/mag values, but the biggest problem is that now, dark elf which was the best class for mag dk, is no more, and anyone who used dark elf for fire builds, is now better off using high elf.

FrancisCrawford

Iccengi wrote: »

Honestly I think the changes are thoughtful and on point. I’m pleasantly surprised.
My only thought is giving 1k resources to replace a 9% buff isn’t really equivalent. If you move that from 1k to 2k and the 2k to 3k it’s be really in line

They're obviously, deliberately nerfing the 9/10/12% max stat bonuses.

aeowulf

@ZOS_Gilliam awesome first majorly big post Thanks! Good to see there is a step in the right direction and i'm looking forward to maybe seeing a few more Nords! Please don't just consider 'on paper' balancing - some things are simply not available as a minor effect on armour, and that some scale with glyphs (for example the argonian passive should probably have a 45s cooldown or scale to when a potion was last chugged.)

FrancisCrawford

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

Bosmer's getting stealth detect seems like a completely useless passive, there is almost no instance where I think I run into stealthed players these days other than nightblades (which stealth detect doesn't matter). I would rather see more damage to stealthed enemies, or something that would actually be useful in combat. I know lore is important, but don't have it determine ingame buffs/usefulness of the race. Also why does the speed only last 3 seconds and not 4 like the bow hasty retreat passive, it would make more sense to have these overlap.

otherwise great to see that the game isn't just
stam build ---> orc
mag/tank/stam ---> argonian

side note i'm a pvp player, but i'm pretty sure stealth detect has no place in pve aswell.

As in current passives in pve it at least give ability to steal everything, now that's completely useless passive. Khajiits and dunmer are put to "hybrid" roles which are out of meta.. well, maybe in PVP some viable hybrid can be builded, but in PVE cats and dark elves are now far behind altmer and redguard which were directly buffed.

If there's one thing that NOBODY thought needed a nerf, it's Bosmers' thieving abilities. This nerf benefits nobody, and hurts many.

skinnycheeks

Faulgor wrote: »

As far as max stats go ...

Altmer: 2000 M
Argonian: 1000 M, 1000 H
Bosmer: 2000 S
Breton: 2000 M
Dunmer: 600 H, 1250 M, 1250 S
Imperial: 2000 H, 2000 S
Khajiit: 750 H, 750 M, 750 S
Nord: 1000 H, 1500 S
Orc: 500 H, 500 S <----!?
Redguard: 2000 S

Orcs are such an extreme outlier in total stat bonuses, I don't see how any of their other bonuses justify this. The next lowest stat bonuses are the ones with 2000 (Altmer, Argonian, Bosmer, Breton, Redguard), then 2250 (Khajiit), 2500 (Nord), 3100 (Dunmer) and 4000 (Imperial).

Can we get these at least increased to 1000 H/S?

Orcs get 258 weapon damage to go with that. They are fine.

Moonsorrow

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

Galarthor

The "Spell Recharge" passive seems a little bit random, especially since it is so different from similar passives of other classes - what is the stamina part even doing there? Altmers are all about magic! The tooltip is also ambiguous. Is the effect based on the higher maximum of the 2 resources pools or on the higher current amount when the ability is activated? If it the former, then there is absolutely no reason for the stamina component as nobody is playing a stamina altmer ... just look at the rest of the passives.

The regen amounts to 191.6 magicka recovery (if you manage to proc the passive on cooldown). In order to get the same amount from the current 9% passive you'd need 2129.6 magicka regen (excluding the 9% bonus), which I doubt most people have. However, bringing this passive more in line with those of other racer would be nice.

My suggestion: remove the stamina component and bring the magicka regen in line with similar passives of other races.

Sustain-wise, the Altmer cannot compete with the Breton, not even closely. At an average magicka consumption of 3000 per second the Breton get a cost reduction of 210 per second, which amounts to 420 less magicka used every 2 seconds. Because cost reduction is 25% more effective than resource pool expansion, the 420 saved magicka per 2 seconds are equivalent to a magicka regeneration of 525. Add to that the 100 magicka regeneration Bretons get from the "Spell Resistance" passive and Bretons end up with a passive magicka regeneration gain of 625, which is significantly higher than the 191 Altmers get.

The fact that you probably won't be using a class ability on the passives cooldown on many builds will only exacerbate this disparity!

As for the damage reduction, it seems that one is geared towards templars with their jesus beam and jabs.

The nerf to "Gift of Magnus" stings though! That's a 1.5k - 2k max magicka loss, which will hurt sorcs the most since they rely on max magicka for their shields.

Dracane

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO wrote: »

Decided to blow 27k gold to do a real world test on my Altmer comparing the flat value changes to just Gift of Magnus ->> New Syrabane's Boon Passive. These tests were done wearing the exact same gear (All light, Earthgore Monster Set, Spell Power Cure Body, and Moondancer Jewelry and Moondancer Fire Staff) and capped CP points applied (35 Elfborn, 75 Elemental Expert, 10 Spell Erosion, 41 Staff Expert, 34 Master at Arms, 75 Thaumaturge, 30 Ironclad, 20 spell shield, 30 light armor focus, 30 thick skinned, 75 hardy, 75 elemental defender, 10 bastion, 35 warlord, 45 sprinter, 75 arcanist, 20 tumbling, 20 shadow ward).


CP Magicka with 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

34796

CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

31689


So in total = 3107 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive wearing the exact same gear and exact same CP setup.


Non CP Magicka without 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

29592

Non CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of MAgnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

26950



So in total = 2642 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive in non cp campaign wearing the exact same gear.


From what I can tell, in no way you slice it be it CP or non CP, that flat 2000 Magicka change that is coming for Altmer is a nerf. Not a monstrously big one, but still a nerf.

Just wanted to put this test out there for anyone who hasn't done it yet or doesn't want to spend the money to test things out.

For me it's even worse. I gain 4213 Magicka from Gift of Magnus in Cyrodiil pvp. In pve and IC it will be so much more.
I would need over 100% magicka amplify if I wanted to get compareable numbers and nobody has that. I also compared the 4% elemental damage to 258 spell damage with all buffs applied.

Force pulse deals 45 more damage with 258 SD as opposed to 4% elemental damage. Due to the 2k magicka that I will loose, it will do even less than what it does now.

And they say that flat numbers portrait a BUFF in MANY cases ? Darling, it does not do that in any case. Maybe for people in white gear, probably not even then.

Skwor

Very good changes. Thank you Devs. I do think a slight tweak for bretons is still needed. Raise the spell resistance, the reason being is the high elf can now channel jabs or beam and spam a constant 5 percent damage reduction. To keep the breton as a heartier class against spells it needs raised. Otherwise what you have now is the high elf, in reality, is better against spell damage.

FrancisCrawford

metabLast3r wrote: »

@ZOS_Gilliam

Uhh, no ice damage passive bonus for nords? At least make them viable in some manner for ice damage. Sigh. The world is crumbling around me. Send help.

They took out the elemental damage bonuses that WERE there. (Altmer, Dunmer)

StarOfElyon

Playing a high elf who primarily uses class abilities, I can't complain too much. I'm assuming magic damage is included in the Elemental Talent passive. Is that correct? I hope so.

Raudgrani

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Raudgrani wrote: »

Nice. So you nerf Nords *even* more, by changing the previous "all-round" 6% into resistance? Dunno about the ulti generation, might just be pessimistic - every 10 seconds? Well that's not much, certainly not in PVP. Sure it might be good for a TANK, but do we really want to push Nords into even more niche tanking role? They were not best at it to start with, so why force them to stay there?

And Redguard... Ffs., you *increase* what made these meta? Why do you want ever stamina DD to be Redguard? Why?

And... You *decreased* Khajiit stamina recovery to literally... NOTHING? Great. You just made Khajiit impossible to use for competitive damage dealing, really - this makes them good for nothing at all, they were already struggling with stamina recovery; 75 recovery? Really? What are they supposed to be used for? Pickpocketing alone? Redguard was already the "button masher handicapped" choice over Khajiit. Khajiit will now have the vigor of a 50 year old obese chain smoker.

With these changes - there's no such thing as a serious end game Khajiit DD anymore. Every stamina damage dealer HAS to be Redguard or gtfo. Khajiit is out, Bosmer is out - only remotely viable alternative is now Orc. I don't know, but I'm getting a weird feeling this some kind of "real world" political correctness thing? Everyone needs to be a Redguard. Seriously, it's ridiculous. Pathetic.

Ok.
Nords are literally OP buffed. 4k resistance of EACH? Almost STATIC minor heroism is a nerf to you - HUH?
Khajiit just got 8% spell and weapon crit - the most desirable stat in a PVE DPS kit and yet you say they have 0 chance of being competitive - HUH?

Hahaha.... Seriously...

You get your "heroism" when you take damage, every ten seconds at that. In PVP, that's pretty much useless, especially since they will now be even worse in PVP. Since they will have less health AND stamina, AND health recovery, nobody will use them anyway - because this was exactly why we used them in PVP, if we did. The old typical PVP Nord with +40k Stamina, high Health/Health recovery is now out the window, so tell me how we are supposed to make use of that "heroism" you speak of. We can't be the Fury/Seventh Legion wearing guys taking all the beating anymore, they will be as weak and useless as us modern day Swedes, a pale shadow of what once was, quite literally.

3960 = 6% reduction, this now doesn't apply to bleed or oblivion damage. So please keep telling me how wonderfully buffed they are.

Literally, maybe you just zerg in PvP. Which is fine, I don’t care. But maybe that’s why you don’t understand my POV.

The reason I say this is because “when you take damage” and “PvP” are nearly interchangeable terms to me, whereas you seem to feel the need to act like they’re so incredibly different. If I’m in PvP, I’m transporting or I’m taking damage, simple as that. People are attacking me and I am attacking people. The only scenario I can imagine someone wouldn’t see it this way is if they were the aggressor, larger group, zerging down a smaller group who literally can’t do damage to them because they’re being trampled.

“When you take damage” should very easily mean it procs on cooldown every time and synergize incredibly well with, oh idk- BATTLE ROAR. Bloodspawn. Decisive. Werewolf hide, fury, seventh legion, take your pick. These changes to nord will literally push it to not only good or great but literally best in slot. Atleast in regards to stam dk, it is going to be very hard to top.

You’re acting like nords damage mitigation got gutted so profoundly that they’re just going to be fairies who float around and die now. Meanwhile, in every discord and competitive PvP environment I look, everyone’s eyeballing that nord as their next ticket to OP ROFLSTOMP.

The damage mit % = resistance pound for pound. So the only thing we’re talking about here is bleeds. The mit % decreased them and new passive will not. But even with that, that current mit % passive is broken and it’s well known and accepted that it stacks improperly at the disadvantage of the nord.

And while bleeds are strong, an 8% damage mitigation to them being lost does not BY ANY MEANS gut this play style. If you think that a nord heavy armor stam dk in blood spawn/fury/7th with all those healing, tanking and constant ulti gain passives is going to be anything short of an absolute juggernaut, maybe refer to the very first sentence of this post as to why.

That ultimate generation is like what, maximum 30 over one MINUTE? Most of my fights are over well before that, and if they ain't another 30 ulti/minute won't change that. Then it's not about SPAMMING ultimate like some "zergling", but timing it, alright?
This, in exchange for removal of f*****g 20% health recovery? Yeah, I'm really starting who's the real "zergling" here. I use two ultimates, Empowering Sweep and Spell Wall on my Stamplar and they are pretty cheap, I'm really not like entirely dependent on them. Sweep is nice when I get jumped by other 10 brave solo players at the same time, and Spell Wall is fine when being chased by such like, trying to find a few seconds respite. So, it's mostly for solo survival, not "group play". I'm not one of those guys rushing people with Dawnbreaker, with friends using Subassaults, Permafrost and Steel Tornado. I just ain't. I ideally fight 1-3 people with said toon.

For my at the very least, it's nothing but bad. I'm at some 30k resistances buffed with this one anyway, and I'm far better off with another 6% 3960, that also mitigates niceties such as bleed builds and Oblivion damage (wanna take 6% more Sload's damage, anyone?). But that's just me. I take so damn much damage there, in the middle of my humongous EP zerg, while I take damage, and get healed by 12 healers to build Ultimate to group drop at the given command. I surely do, sire.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I'm not a complete novice here, I can clearly see that my playstyle, will be affected negatively.

InvitationNotFound

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

It will be nerfed, that's why you won't get any fancy calculations or comments on it.

Let's just ignore the nerfs and call everything buffs (while it isn't). So we can all feel good and be happy... at least until the patch is released.

kathandira

brandonv516 wrote: »

Just let us choose our own 3 racial passives from the entire pool and let people be creative FFS.

I 100% Agree. Been saying the same for weeks now.

FrancisCrawford

heavier wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Imperial

• Increases Experience gain in One Hand and Shield Skill Line by 15%, extra 1% Gold gain → No changes
• Tough: 12% Max Health → Increases your Max Health by 2000.
• Conditioning: 10% Max Stamina → Imperial Mettle: Increases your Max Stamina by 2000.
• Red Diamond: 10% Chance on Melee Attack to heal for 6% of Max Health → When you deal Direct Damage you have a 15% chance to heal for 1750. Reduces the cost of your Block and Bash abilities by 5%.

Developer Comment

Stout and hardy by nature, the Imperial race is one of order in battle and culture. They stand strong and unified, regardless of what hardships face them. This is highlighted with their powerful bonuses to constitution, and ability to push back when under pressure.

p2w

For what? Tanking? Anything that helps tanks is good, given the apparent shortage of same.

SodanTok

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

Moonsorrow wrote: »

Since everything was buffed and all are giddy with anticipation for these lovely changes.. I am waiting anxiously to hear how recovery was buffed on bosmer that was built for pvp high stam regen?

Waiting..

Waiting..

It will be nerfed, that's why you won't get any fancy calculations or comments on it.

Let's just ignore the nerfs and call everything buffs (while it isn't). So we can all feel good and be happy... at least until the patch is released.

So there should be calculations for every specific scenario there is? Just because someone stacks 3000 stam regen in PVP we should call it nerf even tho 99% of people dont do that?

Any PVP build stacking regen on bosmer will now receive at minimum 490 regen. To match that (on live) one has to stack 2333 raw regen so fully buffed run over 4k regen build.

ZarkingFrued

Yeah Dark Elf just got wrecked even worse than argonian. Retain the flame damage on top of the spell n weapon damage buff or there is zero reason to choose it over high elf or really any class

IlCanis_LupuslI

CyberSkooma wrote: »

LLawlietW wrote: »

Why was redguard buffed? how does that make sense when they are already considered the best race for stamina dps. and then the second best option khajiit gets nerfed. i just dont understand how that is supposed to make sense at all

I don't have the slightest clue what they were thinking buffing Redguard and then giving Khajiit 75 recovery... Thanks. RIP my stamblade

@CyberSkooma
Average recovery is 2000 atm 10% is 200
Rec on a pvp build down to 75 and your getting 0.7k Stam health and mag more. Buhuhu you'll have to change 1 enchant and will have the same damage if not more Buhuhu you'll delete your char
Khajiit got a few awesome buffs stop crying all my chars are Khajiits and I'm very happy.
Redguard didn't get buffed they got nerfed big time expecially in the damage compartment only fair.

Tasear

the other illeration for breton was better....gave them a sustain focus. Now they have again issue of altmer vs Breton.

FrancisCrawford

Left4Daud wrote: »

Wood elves losing disease immunity and stealth bonuses for a worthless detection bonus?

I just don’t get why you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel with these changes. You didn’t need to take anything away from our beloved characters, small tweaks to the numbers over a series of monitored updates would have more than sufficed.

Now wood elves will have these unexciting passives for the next two years until you decide to smash everything and change it again.

I’m just not enthused about this and I know nothing I say will have any influence over the balance direction so I won’t even bother making suggestions. All I can say is that if I wasn’t so attached to my wood elves I’d delete them after seeing this news, that’s how much of a let down it is.

Wood elves are the big fiasco here, or one of them. A lot of us are attached to our Bosmers, so making the race useless will get LOTS of people upset.

(By the way -- my attachment isn't for the most common reason. My Bosmer character is a straight male, and so am I. )