Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

Dracane

I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.

themaddaedra

Masel wrote: »

Let me give you a statement on why I see these changes as an overall improvement. First, let me clear a few things up that people do not seem to understand when they look at these changes:

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

Amazing work there. I was too lazy even to explain it but you did sheets as well :v

Aluneth

Mettaricana wrote: »

Altmer seems kinda pointless compared to most of these races give them a lil stam to co.pliment that recharge passive

Sure, I'm up for this.

1500 Magicka
500 Stamina

Perhaps you would like more stamina?

1000 Magicka
1000 Stamina

Take your pick, I'm up for them picking either of those.

tactx

No one likes change, but I'm glad at least they kept races having unique themed / lore-based bonuses.

Masel

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Aluneth

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Could you please explain it to me? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't see it.

I currently have 48 000 stamina on my Imperial Warden. How exactly, will the 10% to 2000 change give me the same or even more?

Dont_do_drugs

@Masel still what about the mag dk. without doing the maths i am rpetty sure, mag dk was the playstyle which benefited from the removed flame damage bonus most, while beeing already the weakest melee. will zos at some point come and bring some improvement to pve mag dk? the dunmer change hurts so much, bcs a lot of people playing dunmer mb also are mag dk and having already not the best time of their life in the game with their chosen role.

Feanor

Dracane wrote: »

I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.

You’re getting a 5% damage taken reduction while recasting your pets. That’s something.

Masel

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Could you please explain it to me? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't see it.

I currently have 48 000 stamina on my Imperial Warden. How exactly, will the 10% to 2000 change give me the same or even more?

% amplifiers apply to the base value and are additive. So if you have 20000 stamina in form of flat boosts (which these races are) and have lets say 40% buffs to amplify that. Then you will have 28000 stamina (20000*1.4). adding in 10% will not make it 30800, but 20000*1.5=30000 instead.

Jhalin

I guess my kitty DK is gonna be a magDK since it’ll be crap for stam compared to my redguard. I can’t believe they got buffed while Khajiit are stuck trying to “hybrid” with such pitiful stat increases

Stam builds notoriously go heavy on the weapon abilities. Rending, Poison Inj, Endless Hail, Shrouded Dagger, Steel Tornado, Blade Cloak. Who thought it was a good idea to buff redguard sustain even more

victorhrpereira

The changes from % to flat increases are nice to balance things, but overall I don't like the changes because it still makes DPS focused races superior compared to others. IMO, races should be only cosmetics or have morphs to appeal both stam/magicka dps, healer and tanking roles.

Sotha_Sil

Good changes overall I guess but I feel like the dunmer race has been offered the stamina possibility in detriment of the magicka one.

Ragnaroek93

Dracane wrote: »

I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.

For magplar it's pretty useful.

Lady_Sleepless

Alright, had another look since my initial glance.

Firstly you say that you want to add diversity and add some variety to the game. Well you won't be getting that with everyone playing Redguard or High Elf. Their passives out class every other by a huge margin. (You also added a ton of new stuff to the High Elves and left the rest of the races in the lurch.)

I thought the idea between High Elf and Dark Elf was that one has regen and the other power. Changing the dunmer to a hybrid race doesn't work. You have to rethink the Dark Elf passives. Maybe a good start would be something like this:

Increases Experience gain in Dual Wield Skill Line by 15%, reduces damage taken from Lava by 50%

Increases your Max Stamina and Magicka by 1250.

Increases your Max Health by 600 and your Flame Resistance by 2310. You are immune to the Burning status effect.

Destructive Ancestry: 7% Flame damage and 2% Frost/Shock Damage and Increases your Weapon and Spell Damage by 258

John_Falstaff

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Sorry - I must be confused, just thought I'd ask - 20% in what CP tree? What does affect max stamina there?

Masel

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

amir412 wrote: »

Aluneth wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
39,699 Stamina.

Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
34,224
Add the 2k redguard passive
36,224
Add 6% undauted again:
38,397

So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

Sorry - I must be confused, just thought I'd ask - 20% in what CP tree? What does affect max stamina there?

Investing into cp points increases your stats. Investing 100 Points in the blue, red and green tree give a 20% boost to them.

Check this out if you wanna know more the background of ESO combat:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/422268/a-comprehensive-guide-on-damage-dealing-in-elder-scrolls-online/p1

Hixtory

Nifty2g wrote: »

Beautiful changes, love the Magicka version of Adrenaline Rush. Long overdue.

which is?

Dracane

Feanor wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.

You’re getting a 5% damage taken reduction while recasting your pets. That’s something.

That's nothing at all ! Because my pets don't die in the first place and 5% is a joke anyway.
Why is our recovery passive so laughable compared to what Redguards and Orcs get ? Of course, we have to maintain that stamina supremacy.

Even the lowly Bretons are now probably better in sustain than Altmer. So far has it come. Half Mer take the crown.

John_Falstaff

@Masel , live and learn; thank you. ^^ I never knew that tidbit. Definitely goes into bookmarks.

Dracane

Hixtory wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Beautiful changes, love the Magicka version of Adrenaline Rush. Long overdue.

which is?

It does not exist. They probably mean that loveless Altmer recovery passive, which is half as strong as the stamina version.
It is a good nutshell showcase of the game though. Magicka is always half as efficient in everything.

MaxwellC

So this new 10% change to 2k is pretty much a nerf to every class and a way to combat min maxers as many players maximize their highest damage resource to gain better combative prowess.

Redguard change would've been better if it was all stamina related activities as regen was particularly important for roll-doding and break frees but with the current meta i.e a CP that kills your regen upon LA/HA... well this isn't necessarily a bad change overall but pretty even IMO.

Dracane

MaxwellC wrote: »

So this new 10% change to 2k is pretty much a nerf to every class and a way to combat min maxers as many players maximize their highest damage resource to gain better combative prowess.

Redguard change would've been better if it was all stamina related activities as regen was particularly important for roll-doding and break frees but with the current meta i.e a CP that kills your regen upon LA/HA... well this isn't necessarily a bad change overall but pretty even IMO.

So casuals in green gear can have a good time while those who invest into their gear and try to maintain every potential, get punished once again.

BigBadVolk

Masel wrote: »

Let me give you a statement on why I see these changes as an overall improvement. First, let me clear a few things up that people do not seem to understand when they look at these changes:

1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
Formula is the same as above.

Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:



Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.



With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:



And the other way around:



It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

tbh my only prob with dark elf is the health bonus, just change it to if deals flame damage restores x magicka similarly to high elf

kambo_trick3yub17_ESO

Decided to blow 27k gold to do a real world test on my Altmer comparing the flat value changes to just Gift of Magnus ->> New Syrabane's Boon Passive. These tests were done wearing the exact same gear (All light, Earthgore Monster Set, Spell Power Cure Body, and Moondancer Jewelry and Moondancer Fire Staff) and capped CP points applied (35 Elfborn, 75 Elemental Expert, 10 Spell Erosion, 41 Staff Expert, 34 Master at Arms, 75 Thaumaturge, 30 Ironclad, 20 spell shield, 30 light armor focus, 30 thick skinned, 75 hardy, 75 elemental defender, 10 bastion, 35 warlord, 45 sprinter, 75 arcanist, 20 tumbling, 20 shadow ward).


CP Magicka with 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

34796

CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

31689


So in total = 3107 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive wearing the exact same gear and exact same CP setup.


Non CP Magicka without 3/3 Gift of Magnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

29592

Non CP Magicka with 0/3 Gift of MAgnus 10 Percent Magicka Increase Passive

26950



So in total = 2642 Magicka is gained from JUST that passive in non cp campaign wearing the exact same gear.


From what I can tell, in no way you slice it be it CP or non CP, that flat 2000 Magicka change that is coming for Altmer is a nerf. Not a monstrously big one, but still a nerf.

Just wanted to put this test out there for anyone who hasn't done it yet or doesn't want to spend the money to test things out.

Dracane

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.

For magplar it's pretty useful.

They are immortal enough, aren't they ? Templars always pick Argonian anyway.

InvitationNotFound

Funny how some people defend it and bring up statistics which are flawed.

Try to do the math with recovery. They want diversity and play as you want right? Yet, they nerf some aspects and builds massively.

Again, they try to fix something that isn't (respectively only slightly) broken.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Stop whining about redguard lmao, instead of whining for nerfs maybe talk about increasing the stam regen and changing hp reg passive on khajiit that way no one has to get nerfed and btw Redguard has been nerfed plenty times already instead of zos buffing other races in the past.

carlos424

GeneralSezme wrote: »

Dark elf change is bizzare, why health increase and loss of magic?

I think this will further solidify one race as the obvious highest magic dps character as high elves with the homogenization of the 2 last racial passives.

Trying to force Dark elf to be a hybrid race is a terrible idea, what they should have done is have different, for the lack of a better word, “morphs” for racial passive, to better fit into ones particular playstyle, because I understand that some races are good at both spell and sword, but you should have to chose which one to be better at, not just innately have both

Let me end with this:

A jack of all trades is a master at none

I’d be interested to see how many of the race change tokens are used to change dark elf to something/anything else. I’m guessing about 75%. Lol. I would argue that Khajiit would be more viable than dark elf as a magicka-based dps. Just seems odd. Some of the changes being made just seem random. “We’re taking away some max magicka, so lets, ummmmm, well, lets just add 600 health, what the hell.”

FrancisCrawford

Well, that clobbers some of my favorite characters.

• My current overworld main is a Bosmer stamblade thief, who is based on an old D&D half-elf I made ~25 years ago. I do NOT want to change him into a Khajiit. But unless I do that, overworld play will become less fun for me, and I'll no longer care about new overworld content. YOU LITERALLY TOOK THE MOST IMPORTANT RACIAL PASSIVE FOR OVERWORLD PLAY AND REPLACED IT WITH SOMETHING USEFUL ONLY IN PVP. I hate this change.
• My dungeon main had been an Altmer pet sorcerer. He's fairly retired now anyway because of all the sorcerer nerfs, and because I'm bored with the sorcerers' limited skillbar space, but replacing the lightning damage buff with a spell damage buff that doesn't help pets weakens him further. There's really little point in playing him now.

brandonv516

Just let us choose our own 3 racial passives from the entire pool and let people be creative FFS.

Then people can choose their race based on how they want to look, not the bonuses.

Oh that's not your vision because it doesn't involve us paying more.