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Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

  • VoiDGhOs7
    VoiDGhOs7
    ✭✭✭✭
    These changes remind me of Wrobel testing pvp sustain on a dummy with elemental drain orbs and synergies. The devs might have been exposed the to very high dose of carbon monoxide to explain such kind of way to change race passives.
  • Downey
    Downey
    Soul Shriven
    Thank u so much for posting this b4 I spent more money on this game...the game will never b completely balanced unless u do 1 race and 1 class...LEAVE STUFF ALONE!...I'm a veteran player and am completely sick of having to redesign my toons every patch bc u decide to f with something!...by the looks of this alot of races that were chose for certain builds got screwed...y play a dark elf dk now? A high elf works the same with better mag recovery...if this stupidness is actually implemented, ur going to lose alot of vet players that have spent, and continue to spend, alot of money on ur game...[snip] may Talos guide u all

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on June 22, 2025 6:33PM
  • Rimasaurus
    Rimasaurus
    ✭✭
    Since the point was to balance race passives, I had hoped they would make Breton little more viable race for Stamina DD. There's nothing there that makes my Breton werewolf any stronger in terms of damage.
  • Star_Carrier
    Star_Carrier
    ✭✭✭
    These changes are garbage. Races that gave health are getting nerfed for what? We already can’t survive in pvp, the health is needed to cushion the damage. If they wanted to make unplayable races more desirable then they failed because all they will see is a shift to what will now be meta. 1 race change token? What a joke. Obvious cash grab by ZOS.
  • JerryAlder
    JerryAlder
    ✭✭
    Changes are prob very good BUT u need to let us adjust FOR FREE. Give me 15 race change token or like a possibility for one week to change ones per char. Until then RIOT!!
  • Ajaxduo
    Ajaxduo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bosmer should really have a ranged damage bonus instead of the movement speed considering it's easily accessible...
    - - -
    GM of Verum Aeternus, PC EU
    - - -
  • jediprime74
    jediprime74
    ✭✭✭
    I must admit that I am not pleased with the changes to Imperial passives. Those of us who purchased the Imperial race actually shelled out more money to get that race and its passives. As for me, that was the entire reason I purchased the race. Specifically for the passives.

    As to the race change tokens, as someone who has played since the game launched on consoles, I feel that we should get one race change token for each character. One token for players who have several characters is unconscionable. I will likely need to change at least one third of my current stable of characters due to the passives changes.

    Thanks ZOS. Glad I spent the money on a race that is getting severely nerfed. Glad I took the time to level up and play more than one race so now I have to pay for the privilege of adjusting the characters due to your changes.

    Guildmaster of Fool's Errand, PvX/social, beginner to endgame Guild.

    Guildmaster of Fools for the Pact an Ebonheart Pact PvP Guild.

  • Kadoin
    Kadoin
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    I can already see all the ultra-tanky builds in Cyrodil and BGs resulting from these terrible changes. I can see it now! 'Go tank or get spanked' will be plastered all over the PvP section and proc sets will rule even harder than they ever have before.
  • megageeklizzy
    megageeklizzy
    ✭✭✭
    To all these people asking for free/extra race changes: I know I'm not in the majority here, but people do actually role-play in this game. The race we choose to role-play becoming useless can cripple us. We aren't going to get rid of the characters whose stories we have been working on over the years, and the fact that you are now making it even harder to use our RP characters for actual gameplay is insulting. I know this was made by the combat team, and something like people role-playing may not even have occured to you, but this is not a simple matter of "yeah spend money on a race change it'll be fine". Some of us don't really have the choice without losing one of our favorite ways to play.
    On a side note, I don't think lore can count as any sort of excuse for this ***. Half of Tamriel is going to suddenly change race.
  • amir412
    amir412
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    For me, the ideal balance to races would be:
    Should revert the 2k flat stats to 10% max stats buff, So we dont get pushed into pigeon hole weapon/spell dmg monkeys and we can keep creating unique builds with max stats that compenstate the loss of pushing weapon/spell dmg.

    Keep the changes to these races for better balancing:
    * High Elf - Keep the regen instead of the magicka return, its nonsense.
    * Argonian - Good change, it was a carry race for too long.
    * Wood Elf - Its so predicted that the speed buff will be fail in Cyrodill, beside that its good.
    * Breton - Finally get some love.
    * ORC - A good change, race seems to look more appealing.
    * Imperial - Still needs a buff, but anything is good.
    * Nord - Slight nerf to dmg reduction, but the other buffs compenstate it.

    The rest should remain the same as they are in live, except for
    * Khajiit - Could use a buff, literally turned into role play with the new changes.
    --

    * Redguard - Should be untouched.
    * Dunmer - Should be untouched.

    That way u dont force players to race change to still be comptetive and spend lots of money on race change, which i know its hard for u to understand, But its totally un-fair for ur play base.
    Giving us 1 token after such drastic changes is absurd and will make many players quit.
    Edited by amir412 on January 17, 2019 12:26PM
    PC | EU | AD | "@Saidden"| 1700 CP|
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Let me give you a statement on why I see these changes as an overall improvement. First, let me clear a few things up that people do not seem to understand when they look at these changes:

    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
    3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

    In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
    Formula is the same as above.

    Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:

    Lrk1W0p.jpg

    Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.

    jNzB49e.jpg

    With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

    Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:

    4h3M8j2.jpg

    And the other way around:

    8C02091.jpg

    It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.
    Edited by Masel on January 17, 2019 5:29PM
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
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  • wodkamanostrab16_ESO
    Ajaxduo wrote: »
    Bosmer should really have a ranged damage bonus instead of the movement speed considering it's easily accessible...

    I don't understand why they don't give Bosmer an additional bow racial other than the +% experience one. It would make so much sense not only lorewise but also make the Bosmer unique. In my opinion the bow weapon skill line is also the most neglected one by ZOS.
    Edited by wodkamanostrab16_ESO on January 17, 2019 12:27PM
    PC EU
  • x48rph
    x48rph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Omg, no. Why would you change the stealthy passive for bosmers. Being sneaky is the heart and sole of being bosmer. Hunting, right of theft, ect.. all require being sneaky. Increased detection radius is useless garbage that doesn't even fit. Not to mention that the increased damage from stealth was the only real reason to roll one for pvp..... Please recosider this.
  • Aluneth
    Aluneth
    ✭✭✭✭
    I was expecting a way to spec your race to the desired role while having some standard lore based passives. But hey, I didn't have that before, I don't have it now so I gained and lost nothing.
    Overall I like the changes except from two.
    1. The 20% bosmer move speed is a bitt too much imo and I suspect that it will be toned down before release.
    2. The imperial. Imperial is lacking compared to other races. It lacked before, it lacks even more now. I am not even gonna talk about the max stat loss difference compared to the other class percentages cause now everyone got the same nerf. Red diamond change is nice I guess but the new passives for imperial are very very situational compared to the other race changes. It's neither a versatile race (like dunmer or khajiit) nor a solid one (like breton or orc) anymore. It's just for one and only role. Block focused tanking.
    So I think that imperial should have something extra added to their passives to balance it with the other races. For instance add a medium value of mag and stam return with red diamond. Or make red diamond like engine guardian so that it has a 15% chance to return 1750 hp or mag or stam on direct attack (luck was a major element on imperial perks on tes games). Just don't leave imperial like that it is not a good change imo as it is.

    This, please don't leave the Imperial like this.
  • mikemacon
    mikemacon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    As a Breton mag sorc main, I thoroughly approve of the incoming buffs to Bretons an nerfs to the filthy Thalmor.
  • Vein667
    Vein667
    ✭✭
    Thank you. Really. (sarcasm)

    Now i have to change my orc tank to another race cause u decided make them more damagy. And I`ll have to spend crowns to buy name change token too cause im not gonna have nord with orcish name.

    And why u nerfing everything except redgards? U afraid that ppl will call u rasist or what?! All my stam dds r khajiits and i dont wanna reroll them to redgards cause u wished make cats hybrids, and let little girls and boys play magicka khajiit.

    I really hoped you will make nords more damagy than tanky. Really hoped.

    Well now I hope you will relook what you`ve done ZoS. It not very good changes at all.
  • x48rph
    x48rph
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also lets not forget about name change tokens too. A lot of people pick lore appropriate names for their characters. Since your completely gutting people's builds you should at least allow us to change everything for free.
  • evoniee
    evoniee
    ✭✭✭✭
    khajiit trollking is nerfed. im ok with it.
    the only cons for khajiit stam is the stam regen, also ok with it.
  • MythicEmperor
    MythicEmperor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dark elf doesn’t need to be a hybrid. It was never great at stamina, but it at least competed with Altmer giving the players choice. Why change that?
    With cold regards,
    Mythic

    Favorite Characters:
    Kilith Telvayn, Dunmer Telvanni Sorcerer (main)
    Kilith, Dunmer Magblade (old main)
    Vadusa Venim, Dunmer crafter (older main)
    Hir Hlaalu, Dunmer Warden
    Søren Icehelm, N'wah Warden
    Fargoth of Morrowind, Bosmer commoner
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think the changes are good for the most part; they will promote diversity* in both PvE/PvP, except in the case of end-game dps. There, people will still want to min-max, and right now the best choices seem to be Altmer/Redguard, for mag/stam respectively.

    The passives that benefit hybrid playstyle will work for PvP and the easier PvE content, and I think choosing a race for lore or appearance reasons, that's suboptimal for a given role, will be less punishing overall. We will see more races as tanks and healers, but these roles have always been more varied in terms of race anyway, at least compared to DDs.

    Two things pop out as strange to me: I expected Redguard sustain nerfs, and I didn't expect the complete removal of fire damage for Dunmer, and I'm hoping the latter will be amended before changes go live, because it's completely disadvantaging the class as it's proposed right now.

    Finally, I think it's kind of paradoxical how promoting playstyle diversity is done by making the races as uniform as possible. The same thing has been happening with class skills, and I wish they could have kept each race/class' unique flavour, and bring it on par with the others by adding things, not nerfing. This, however, is an inevitable result of the CP system, power creep, and not having PvE/PvP separated, and unless we see these adressed, balance will simply be: nerfing across the board, with small increases here and there that are not significant enough to promote a given playstyle. ZOS' 'play-as-you-like' motto, still does not apply to their own end-game content.

    *except where minor toughness is concerned :sweat_smile:
    Edited by Jaimeh on January 17, 2019 1:08PM
  • Mettaricana
    Mettaricana
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Altmer seems kinda pointless compared to most of these races give them a lil stam to co.pliment that recharge passive
  • Aluneth
    Aluneth
    ✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

    I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

    Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 40k+?

    Edited by Aluneth on January 17, 2019 12:40PM
  • amir412
    amir412
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aluneth wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

    I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

    Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

    I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

    I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
    39,699 Stamina.

    Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
    34,224
    Add the 2k redguard passive
    36,224
    Add 6% undauted again:
    38,397

    So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

    I would love to get insight if i forgot something in this calculation, i was testing this on a DK knight, beside undauted, i couldnt recall another % max stat buff.
    Edited by amir412 on January 17, 2019 12:50PM
    PC | EU | AD | "@Saidden"| 1700 CP|
  • Dracane
    Dracane
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    I knew you would be gutting Gift of Magnus like a fish. It just knew.
    From 4000 magicka down to 2000 without bonuses. Your calls that there will be no nerfs, it could not fool anyone.

    And what is this non-sense with the cast time passive ? What cast time abilities would an Altmer caster use. I mean, what cast time spells are there in the first place ? Are you trying to promote crystal shard hard casting once again ? So out of touch with the game, as always. If none of the reps saw that this is garbage, then I really do not know anymore.
    Edited by Dracane on January 17, 2019 12:48PM
    Auri-El is my lord,
    Trinimac is my shield,
    Magnus is my mind.

    My debut album on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@Gleandra/videos
  • themaddaedra
    themaddaedra
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    Let me give you a statement on why I see these changes as an overall improvement. First, let me clear a few things up that people do not seem to understand when they look at these changes:

    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.
    2. On magicka races, sure you can say that altmer is the best race when it comes to the pure dps output while neglecting any sustain component. However, that's neglecting additional factors that come in. Khajiit has spell crit, magicka recovery that effectively translates into roughly the same sustain that altmer gets, they have max magicka AND 8% spell critical, which will benefit more from additional critical damage you have in group content and will be especially effective on templars and nightblades. Factoring in sustain, bretons are incredibly strong in that regard, so much so that they are a valid choice for any class that struggles with sustain and also allows using BLUE food in most instances, plus giving resistance and a flat recovery that always ticks. Also people seem to neglect the additional health that khajiit gets, which is very valuable in many instances. Dunmer is the most versatile race now since it can do both specs and also gets health. If you wanted to min/max 100% dunmer is not the ideal choice for dps (again neglecting the aspects from above), but the difference is ~1k magicka and 60-70 magicka per second. The altmer sustain component also only functions when you actually cast a class ability, whereas breton and khajiit have a passive that always ticks.
    3. Stamina races are very very close to each other, especially in actual fights. People seem to think redguard is still the ultimate best, but this is not the case. Bosmer, orc, khajiit, dunmer are all viable. Redguard requires you to deal DIRECT damage now to benefit from the adrenaline rush, which is a significant reduction in effectiveness from what we had before, since it will not proc on DoT-abilities. The weapon cost reduction also requires you to cast abilities to be effective. Bosmer is 100% on par with redguard sustainwise. 258 recovery that ticks all the time is a lot and will net you a higher gain than the passives redguards have in many instances in PvE and PvE. Orc has higher damage compared to these two, but a bit less sustain. Khajiit is still a very viable choice and the sustain is basically unchanged from what they had before. I'm not 100% satisifed on the imperial side because they don't really have anything that benefits their role as a DD in pve, but for tanking they definetely became better.

    In order to prove some of this, i made an excel sheet where i implemented these into a standard build for stamina and magicka DDs in PvE. Magicka build was (as far as i remember) Zaan, Siroria and Sorrow/Spell Strategist, while the stamina version uses Relequen+Advancing Yokeda+Velidreth.
    Formula is the same as above.

    Here's the comparison of effective spell power and weapon power:

    7rv9hZc.jpg

    Here, altmer comes out as the clear winner, and for stamina, dunmer puts out the highest damage. This does not yet factor in sustain components. In order to do so, I introduced a ranking system that basically just ranks races based on damage and sustain with equal weights. The weights can ofc be adjusted, so if sustain is more important to you, the ranks will change accordingly.

    5qtz0N3.jpg

    With equal weights, altmer still comes out on top, but not by much. Shifting the weights towards sustain more and more makes breton the best choice.

    Shifting the weights to 30% sustain and 70% damage yields the following:

    4qwYmTQ.jpg

    And the other way around:

    2feAwG0.jpg

    It all depends on what you need, and the gaps are not as cear and big as many make them seem.

    Amazing work there. I was too lazy even to explain it but you did sheets as well :v
    PC|EU
  • Aluneth
    Aluneth
    ✭✭✭✭
    Altmer seems kinda pointless compared to most of these races give them a lil stam to co.pliment that recharge passive

    Sure, I'm up for this.

    1500 Magicka
    500 Stamina

    Perhaps you would like more stamina?

    1000 Magicka
    1000 Stamina

    Take your pick, I'm up for them picking either of those.
  • tactx
    tactx
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No one likes change, but I'm glad at least they kept races having unique themed / lore-based bonuses.
    “No one's happiness but my own is in my power to achieve or to destroy.” - John Galt, Atlas Shrugged
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    amir412 wrote: »
    Aluneth wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

    I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

    Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

    I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

    I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
    39,699 Stamina.

    Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
    34,224
    Add the 2k redguard passive
    36,224
    Add 6% undauted again:
    38,397

    So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

    You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...
    PC EU

    All Trial Trifecta Titles Done!

    Youtube:
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChVEG6ckuAgGs5OyA6VeisA
  • Aluneth
    Aluneth
    ✭✭✭✭
    Masel wrote: »
    amir412 wrote: »
    Aluneth wrote: »
    Masel wrote: »
    1. Flat stats are a buff, NOT a nerf. These get amplified by all % buffs you have and will translate to at least the same stat density as before, in many instances even more. In no CP content and instances where you have warhorn available, this is a significant buff especially.

    I'm curious, what % buffs? As a stamina Warden, where do I get 'all' these % stamina buffs? Undaunted?

    Explain to me how a +2000 stamina, will give me the same (or more!) as 10% of 48k?

    I'll explain, this dude has no idea what he is talking about xD

    I tested the current build that i have, Right now its:
    39,699 Stamina.

    Without redguard and undauted i sit at:
    34,224
    Add the 2k redguard passive
    36,224
    Add 6% undauted again:
    38,397

    So overall i lost like, 1,302 stamina which is like 100 in tool tips - Not that bad, but its sure better now to stack weapon damage - Which in my opinion really destroy build diversity.

    You forgot the CP 20% boost right there my friend. your calculations seems to be a little simple...

    Could you please explain it to me? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just can't see it.

    I currently have 48 000 stamina on my Imperial Warden. How exactly, will the 10% to 2000 change give me the same or even more?
  • Dont_do_drugs
    Dont_do_drugs
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Masel still what about the mag dk. without doing the maths i am rpetty sure, mag dk was the playstyle which benefited from the removed flame damage bonus most, while beeing already the weakest melee. will zos at some point come and bring some improvement to pve mag dk? the dunmer change hurts so much, bcs a lot of people playing dunmer mb also are mag dk and having already not the best time of their life in the game with their chosen role.

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