Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

CleymenZero

I also think that what's not helping the cause of those voicing their discontent is the fact that the community often complains about useless things and when it comes to the real stuff, the dev team developed a tough skin and are a little impervious to criticism, pertinent or not.

GarnetFire17

Xvorg wrote: »

wistala wrote: »

I sure hope someone considers my post. 7 out of my 15 characters are magicka dark elves. I only played dark elves through Oblivion and Skyrim. My main is a dark elf magicka dragonknight that I’ve had since console launch. I am a dark elf and fire mage at heart.

Maybe these dark elf changes aren’t that major, but I do hope you seriously consider tweaking. I feel like a lot of people also choose dark elves for their fire damage and mage skills. It’s part of the aesthetic, gameplay, and lore. Please don’t change the fundamentals of my dark elves. Please restore fire damage. Maybe add a little more magicka too

Thank you

I prefer 1 thousand times the extra spell dmg than the extra fire dmg. Extra spell dmg is useful not only as damage dealer but also for healing. And the extra wpn dmg is great in a race that has always be able to use swords and bows with the same proficency than staves and spells.

If ZoS encourages hybrids, dunmer is the way to go, but I really doubt they will do that this patch. That's my main concern at the moment. Losing extra elemental dmg is no big deal

I like the promotion of Stamina "Dumners, plus they gave a nice weapon/spell damage bonus which is better than element damage % in my opinion.

velimirius

balance team lost the plot here, rip dunk elves...

grannas211

Carbonised wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

You're forgetting Shacklebreaker and Twice-Born-Star, those are the only other 'viable' hybrid sets.

Read again, please. I already mentioned shackle and amberplasm. TBS is a really bad for hybrids because you have to spread the bonuses. A traditional class can use the 2 bonuses for a much better effect (wpn dmg and extra stam for example beats wpn and spell dmg)

Nothing about that is even remotely relevant for pve, where Dunmer is lagging behind at least 3 other races when it comes to being BiS for anything mag dd related. Even for the iconic magdk spec, where Dunmer could at least stand toe to toe with Altmers since game launch, it will now be objectively outclassed by Altmer, Breton and most likely Khajiit as well. They have in effect reduced Dunmer from a viable race to pureply being an RP joke.

Nah, Dunmer going to be a stamina damage race now

FrancisCrawford

clocksstoppe wrote: »

High elf feels way stronger than all others for no reason. 4% elemental damage to 258 spell damage is absolutely insane.

That's a damage nerf on sorcerers, except in PvP burst builds.

Neoauspex

I'm optimistic, looks like pretty reasonable changes. Everybody, please give it a whirl on PTS before you panic.

Burtan

Feels like a mistake giving dark elf the best dmg output in game for both stam and mag.

Xvorg

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@Masel Dunmer has been one of the top races for a magdk, competing with only Altmer, and with these changes, both Altmer and Breton will be leagues above a Dunmer for a magdk, with probably even a khajiit beating a dunmer for best race for magdk - and you try and downplay this as something else than a friggin huge nerf, from top race for the class and spec to maybe 4th best?
Hybrid my a$$, in what remote scenario will 600 health and more weapon damage help my magdk in any pve scenario whatsoever?

@Masel and the rest of those, responsible for this dunmer aka mdk desaster. pls give us something as exchange.
make mag dk great again. pls......

Actually that change makes me thing the extra fire dmg passive will go directly to mDK which is not a bad option. mDK has very crappy ofensive passives per se.

If mDK gets extra fire dmg, dunmer (and especially, dunmer vamp) will still be a viable option for the class.

Jurand80

Sy1ph5 wrote: »

I mean I buried my dark elf magsorc last patch ZoS you didn't have to dig him up and kick him in the nuts that was uncalled for.

Use that free token to make him nord :F

Coolio_Wolfus

Still annoyed that Orcs can outrun cheetahs.

I see Khajiit keep their stealth radius but it needs an addition...

They could do with the no sneak movement penalty and a 5% sneak cost redux.

As a booster to their re-location of misplaced items...

Dont_do_drugs

Xvorg wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@Masel Dunmer has been one of the top races for a magdk, competing with only Altmer, and with these changes, both Altmer and Breton will be leagues above a Dunmer for a magdk, with probably even a khajiit beating a dunmer for best race for magdk - and you try and downplay this as something else than a friggin huge nerf, from top race for the class and spec to maybe 4th best?
Hybrid my a$$, in what remote scenario will 600 health and more weapon damage help my magdk in any pve scenario whatsoever?

@Masel and the rest of those, responsible for this dunmer aka mdk desaster. pls give us something as exchange.
make mag dk great again. pls......

Actually that change makes me thing the extra fire dmg passive will go directly to mDK which is not a bad option. mDK has very crappy ofensive passives per se.

If mDK gets extra fire dmg, dunmer (and especially, dunmer vamp) will still be a viable option for the class.

exactly this. i am no min-maxer, i am no progress player and i dont want to feel forced to also give away the dunmer race from my mag dk, bcs i love t, dunmer and magdk just belongs together. if there would be something in exchange, i could deal better with the dunmer change, but the mag dk is already on the bottom of the food chain. and i am supposed to play it with a race now, which also is on the bottom of that chain. i can imagine better...

Toc de Malsvi

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

[*]Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Can we please get something useful instead?
Reduced cost for roll dodge for example. Even just +10 health would be better than this.

no, 20 percent speed buff is amazing

You do realize that this is a weaker version of a passive that already exists in the Bow skill line -- which most Bosmer are probably already going to have due to their other passive? The +3m stealth detection bonus is a huge nothing since nearly 0.0% of PvE enemies use stealth. So, really, Bosmer completely lose a racial passive.

It should stack as it wont be Major Expedition. Meaning Bow Bosmer should be very fast after dodge roll. More useful in PVP than PVE but useful and perhaps very powerful for medium armor.

technohic

JobooAGS wrote: »

LLawlietW wrote: »

Why was redguard buffed? how does that make sense when they are already considered the best race for stamina dps. and then the second best option khajiit gets nerfed. i just dont understand how that is supposed to make sense at all. now khajiit has more health recovery than stam... but yea lets buff adrenaline rush

They nerfed the passive recovery

But they increased the return on melee attacks and made it all direct attacks and added cost reduction. Its buffed compared to other classes.

Pretty much any of the percent increase to stats were nerfed if you actually used the race in a stat it was used for.

Vehemorth

I suggest you add a Name + Race Change token instead of a Race Change. Some characters are bound to their name. For example, I have a Magicka DPS Sorcerer that is a High Elf named Mithrandir. This won't make any sense to roll a Breton, as it won't fit the name and I really don't want to spend money to change the name too.

Why? Because Mithrandir means The Gray Wanderer in Elvish. Derivative of the elvish words "mith" meaning grey and "randir" meaning pilgrim or wanderer.

This is a name made up by the elves as an endearment to the wizard Gandalf from Lord of the rings. This name won't really work for a class that's not an Elf. Also, race changing enables the ability to change the gender and in case the player doesn't like how a race looks like, it will be stuck with a name of the opposing gender.
__________________________________
Regarding the bonuses: I am happy with how the game changes. It doesn't affect how I see things, only make what I already like better. You only need one character for each role.
- Stamina DPS: Red Guard Nightblade (Vampire)
- Magicka DPS: High Elf Sorcerer (Vampire)
- Healing: Breton Templar (Vampire)
- Tanking: Imperial Dragonknight (Vampire)

Buffs: High Elf, Breton, Imperial, Red Guard
Neither: Argonian, Khajiit, Nord
Nerfs: Wood Elf, Dark Elf, Orc

Cillion3117

We'll adjust to the changes. We always do. Every big change they've made in the past was the end of the world for many, but they got over it. Same thing will happen here

BaylorCorvette

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Not sure I'm really digging some of these changes. Specifically, look at this:

Orcs get 500 stamina and health, as well as 258 weapon damage.

Dark Elves get 1250 stamina and magicka, 600 health, and 258 weapon damage.


Orcs do get a stamina/health sustain passive, but it feels a little lopsided because no matter how you slice it, a dark elf will always hit harder and take more damage than an Orc in melee, and the Dark Elf has the option of being a mage just as easily if they want. It'd feel a whole lot better if the Orc passives offered Orcs at least a flat 1000 health and stamina.

This is just the first example of some of the random weird disparities that feel very first-pass.

Agree with this, I feel like Orc should be getting 1k Health and Stam not 500.

Honestly the 380 heal from Unflinching is pretty useless especially if it is effected by battle spirit (I assume it is)

ExpatJohnny

The proposed flat stat changes, completely greatly impact very specific builds such as max magicka pet sorc's and max health warden tanks. Additionally, according to mathematical calculations, many builds across stamina and magicka platforms will now be performing with less dps, and more equal to previously underperforming class race combinations. Was the goal to lower dps on all builds, make them more equal, and remove max stat builds? This also renders some sets in the game as less usefull, sets that players spent time golding out for a specific max stat build, that will now have to turn to others sets entirely as that build type is being removed. It is my observation from several guilds worth of players, the upcoming content additions to the game are brilliant, but you're proposed race changes will only alienate 90% of your player base.

paulychan

Yay, I can lose the tails

Cundu_Ertur

Coolio_Wolfus wrote: »

Still annoyed that Orcs can outrun cheetahs.

I see Khajiit keep their stealth radius but it needs an addition...

They could do with the no sneak movement penalty and a 5% sneak cost redux.

As a booster to their re-location of misplaced items...

They would actually get a +2m boost to hiding compared to the current setup. Since removing the sneak movement penalty is a 5 piece armor or high level vampirism perk, I don't think that would be balanced at all.

Davadin

Minno wrote: »

Emmagoldman wrote: »

Nord might be really fun as an ult machine but maybe thats were it would be limited to. I would set my nord stamdem cenetered on permafrost or set it to magden to spam the healing ult. What would you add to it @Minno?

Could run it a few ways. Armor it gets is basically between 2-3 protective traits on jewels. If you pair that with light armor/medium, you can roll other traits for extra dmg and I dare say extra dmg set.

Question: For a stamDK, what if im already a 5-heavy 7th legion + Sprig build? I can swap my Selene to BS for even moar ultigen, but what do you mean using dmg trait or dmg set? like, using Robust trait on jewels and damage 2nd set is already a given for DK who wants more damage than a love-tap....

MartiniDaniels

Burtan wrote: »

Feels like a mistake giving dark elf the best dmg output in game for both stam and mag.

Altmer - 2k magicka, 258 dmg + sustain passive
Dunmer - 1.25k magicka. 258 dmg + nothing? where is it best
In PVP maybe some bursty gankers can get use of those 1.25k stamina + 258 dmg

Akrasjel

I can live with that.

paulsimonps

Feanor wrote: »

6% flat dmg reduction to 3960 resistance is a nerf.

It’s a sizeable buff against anything else than bleeds, and that’s the point. The previous bonus was multiplicative, not additive, meaning that those 6% are very ineffective after the dust settles and mitigation is fully calculated. Read @paulsimonps excellent thread about damage calculation and mitigation (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-murkmire/) if you don’t believe that.

Edit:

DAMAGE TAKEN=Base Damage*(1-((Resistance/660)/100))*(1-(Mitigation #1)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #2)/100)*(1-(Mitigation #3)/100))*etc etc


The way you would use this formula is to replace the place holders with the percentage numbers that is show in the tool-tips in the game and obviously the resistance should be the number of which ever resistance you want to test with. If you have more than 3 sources than just add more to fill your needs. Now something you might notice is that this way of calculating will result in diminishing returns, what that means is that for each added mitigation source the usefulness of each individual source gets reduced. As an example, having 2 sources that give 50% mitigation will give you a total of 75% mitigation.

And that's exactly what happens with Nord's current Rugged passive.

@Feanor
@Qbiken

Did some quick math, this is with Gold 7 heavy and the heavy armor passive, gold shield and Major Ward/Resolve and saw how much the Nord change would effect someone like that in NO CP PvP with Minor Maim(Cause its so common).

OLD=100-(100*(1-((24433/660)/100))*(1-50/100)*(1-15/100)*(1-6/100))=74.8393689394

NEW=100-(100*(1-((28393/660)/100))*(1-50/100)*(1-15/100))=75.7833712121

This is if they were also blocking with a One Handed and Shield or a Frost Staff

OLD=100-(100*(1-((24433/660)/100))*(1-50/100)*(1-15/100)*(1-6/100)*(1-50/100)*(1-20/100))=89.9357475758

NEW=100-(100*(1-((28393/660)/100))*(1-50/100)*(1-15/100)*(1-50/100)*(1-20/100))=90.3133484848

So yea, there is a gap and against people that are not using Bleed it is a buff. Though Obviously for people that were at the cap and used Nord anyway, for whatever reason, it would be a nerf. Though I am gonna assume that is a tiny tiny tiny minority.

FrancisCrawford

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

nerfing the holy bajesus out of my breton mag sorcs mag pool cool changes guys.....

The whole thing winds up being yet another major sorcerer nerf. I doubt that was intended, but sorcerers do elemental damage, healing and shielding all based on max magicka. Whoops!

If there are any sorcerer buffs in the pipeline, I suggest accelerating work on those, and releasing them around the same time this nerf is.

Jaavaa

@ZOS_GinaBruno , please explain; why do you change things that nobody has complained about? Why so huge changes after years of eso? There are so much things they have priority. Sad...

Cundu_Ertur

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Aliyavana wrote: »

Edaphon wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

Wood Elf

[*]Stealthy: Reduces detection Radius by 3m and Increases Damage Done in Stealth by 10% → Hunter’s Eye: Increases your Stealth detection radius by 3m. After you use Roll Dodge you gain 20% Movement Speed for 3 seconds.

Can we please get something useful instead?
Reduced cost for roll dodge for example. Even just +10 health would be better than this.

no, 20 percent speed buff is amazing

You do realize that this is a weaker version of a passive that already exists in the Bow skill line -- which most Bosmer are probably already going to have due to their other passive? The +3m stealth detection bonus is a huge nothing since nearly 0.0% of PvE enemies use stealth. So, really, Bosmer completely lose a racial passive.

It should stack as it wont be Major Expedition. Meaning Bow Bosmer should be very fast after dodge roll. More useful in PVP than PVE but useful and perhaps very powerful for medium armor.

I've since realized that, and if it were to stack it would be flat-out insane. That would be a 50% increase in movement with no cool-down for bow-wielding woodelves. I'd give that a week before it got nerfed.

technohic

The moment you realize all those cloaking, wood elf, snipers are getting a speed buff...

Inarre

Thank you for the communication and insight into how your team developed the new race passives!

Carbonised

grannas211 wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

martijnlv40 wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Ok, Dunmer changes are not that bad. A race that is designed to be a hybrid it's OK and the amount of stam/mag and wpn/spell dmg besides extra health is more than ok.

The problem is that the game is not designed around decent hybrid builds. The only set desigend to be hybrid is pelinal's and that's a bad set. Some other sets as shaclebreaker or amberplasm can be used for hybroid builds, but none of them really shines in that department and are better used in traditional classes.

If ZoS wants to make hybrids viable they need to give something else. Changes to some sets would be nice, same as some skills (currently the magicka/stamina options is not even good for pure resource builds), but I doubt they will do that in the same patch they plan to improve server performance and introduce shittymancer; unless shittymancer is a hybrid class.

You're forgetting Shacklebreaker and Twice-Born-Star, those are the only other 'viable' hybrid sets.

Read again, please. I already mentioned shackle and amberplasm. TBS is a really bad for hybrids because you have to spread the bonuses. A traditional class can use the 2 bonuses for a much better effect (wpn dmg and extra stam for example beats wpn and spell dmg)

Nothing about that is even remotely relevant for pve, where Dunmer is lagging behind at least 3 other races when it comes to being BiS for anything mag dd related. Even for the iconic magdk spec, where Dunmer could at least stand toe to toe with Altmers since game launch, it will now be objectively outclassed by Altmer, Breton and most likely Khajiit as well. They have in effect reduced Dunmer from a viable race to pureply being an RP joke.

Nah, Dunmer going to be a stamina damage race now

And it's still going to be outraced by at least 2-3 other stam races as well, so much for being a "stam race".

Not to mention the complete f*ckover on those of us who went with dunmers for our MAG specs, since dunmer was clearly a MAG oriented race throughout the entirety of the game's history up until now.

Not to mention the CLEAR leaning of dunmers towards magic with the Telvanni house, the Indoril ordinators/templars, Divayth Fyr, Sotha Sil and hundreds of other Dunmer mages in the game's lore - which we know throw on the garbage heap in order to make dunmers a freakish hybrid race in a game that hasn't been viable for hybrids in more than 3 years and which GREATLY caters to min/maxing. Smh, smh, smh.

Galarthor

Derra wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

@Tasear Bretons are way ahead of Altmers in terms of sustain with these changes!

Really?

Yes by far.

Ofc it depends on how many spells you cast and how expensive they are at base - but the 7% cost reduction passive is worth between 350 and 450 mag recovery in stat sheet.
The 100 base regen breton gets will be almost enough to put breton on the same sustain as altmer with their passive.

@Derra how did you get those numbers? Just curious b/c I ran my calculations with an assumed average cost (pre-cost reduction) of 3000 per second. Just curious ^^