Upcoming Racial Balance Changes for Update 21

John_Falstaff

Khajiit could use more love, the regen is mediocre, max stat increase a very weird number (when using bi-stat food - two out of three values wasted since no way to trade excess health for stamina; when using DCT or Artaem Broth, still not enough to reach 16k health and hence the necessity to enchant a piece with health glyph). Very unflexible. Though I really appreciate that now khajiits are more suited for magicka too.

Sustain seems to have taken a hit, but I wouldn't go as fast as to say that it's ruined completely (for PvE at least, can't say for PvP builds with high base regen). Seems like the the equilibrium point lies around 900 base regen (before all percentage buffs). So if you run Dubious and nothing else (833 base regen), then new passives will actually buff you since that 75 is also buffable - current passives plus Minor and Major Endurance would give 1162 regen (833 boosted by 40% of Endurances and khajiit passive), while new passive would result in 1180 regen (833 + 75 boosted by 30% of Endurance buffs). Base 900 regen is almost identical (absolutely identical if you only have Major Endurance).

Higher than that, and flat 75 regen starts falling behind (at 1500 base regen, the loss is 52 regen with new passive, at 2000 base, 102 regen). But I would guess that such high regen is only seen in PvP.

gepe87

Khajiit better than Dunmer on Magicka build- Hillarious.

So, My Dunmer MagSorc will turn into Bosmer StamSorc "Flash Gordon" .

Radinyn

Basically nerf ad buff ep and dc

Andreakos

One free race change, per account...only ?

So basicly this is just another cash grab move from Zeni i see, as always.

Why not one free race change per every character of level 50 ?

John_Falstaff

As a follow-up, forgot 15% from CP passive - accounting for that, equilibrium point between old and new stats (with Endurance) would be around 1000 base regen. If the build sits around or below that (and runs CP passive, Major Endurance and optionally Minor), regen either will be the same or better than before, or so it would seem.

Lady_Sleepless

Dark Elves and Khajiit need some tweaking, otherwise I'm okay with the changes so far.

Vaneur

Hope these changes are not definitive... some race "balances" are really a joke

SodanTok

John_Falstaff wrote: »

As a follow-up, forgot 15% from CP passive - accounting for that, equilibrium point between old and new stats (with Endurance) would be around 1000 base regen. If the build sits around or below that (and runs CP passive, Major Endurance and optionally Minor), regen either will be the same or better than before, or so it would seem.

The passive will be buff in any pve situation imaginable as the equilibrium point is much higher than you assume. New 75 recovery on khajiit is 127 recovery after buffs at minimum and on most builds to something like 148 on vampire nightblades.
So even at lowest the point would be at 1270 base recovery. At most builds have 958 recovery (dubious + stormfist) so only if they bothered to put 2 recovery enchants on their jewelry (nobody serious in pve would ever do this) they would get more.

MisterBitting

Ignoring all race change passives details and putting them aside, the big problem here is the options we have as players to proceed from here.

If, for example, you change the way a gear's set bonuses work to balance the meta, we as players can then take our time and grind new gear if we don't like the changes. Sure, we probably spent good time/gold to acquire and upgrade the gear which is no longer viable to us, but at least we can get in game and grind for what's next.

These changes, however, will leave the players choices running thin: you either pony up your cash and hand it over in order to buy new racial passives, or you are forced to stay the same as you were before these changes.

Think of how many players choose multiple characters to play in this game. Many of those chose their starting race carefully as they forged their new toons by carefully weighing the options available to them. After all, they get one chance to make the right decision for this character unless they later pay the cash to amend their choice.

The players should not be restricted to one free race change token when we mostly made damn sure what choice we were making our races before we elected to grind the toon to top level and outfit the gear to synergize accordingly.

There must be a way to balance the "here's one token" decision with the people with a dozen carefully selected races which we will now have to either pay cash to change, or wait until there's a way to acquire them in game.

Patro

Why in the Dark Elf passive Resist Flame 3% Max Magicka became 600 Max Health?

FilteredRiddle

Jules wrote: »

This sounds really good in theory, but it's not possible with the current race change tokens. There is no system in place for tokens to expire, and they can't just make the tokens free on the store, or people will hoard them.

Of course, they could always make a new kind of token that expires, but then how do you differentiate in the UI between expiring tokens and non-expiring ones? How do you display to the user how long they have to use the expiring ones? There is a non-trivial amount of work to make it happen. Frankly, I don't think they have enough time, since PTS is in just a few days, and they usually spend most of the PTS cycles fixing bugs and tweaking the combat changes they've made.

The only viable option really is to utilize the existing race change tokens. Obviously, they don't want to give out more than they need to, lest they hurt crown store sales.

The problem is that they seem to be trying to come up with a global flat number of tokens to give away to everyone, rather than a nuanced approach as some others have suggested (e.g. 1 per max level toon, etc). The *average* might very well come out to only about 1 token needed per account, in aggregate, but that's a small consolation for the most dedicated min/max players who want to change all of their toons to the new meta.

I doubt very much that anything will change, though. I don't recall them giving any free race change tokens when they performed their last mass racial passives update in Shadows of the Hist. They don't want to set precedent of offering free tokens every time they make a racial balance change that disrupts the meta.

I'm actually surprised they are offering any this time. They know that anyone with 8+ competitive toons has sunk so much time into the game that they will buy the tokens no matter what, despite complaining about the cost. Re-rolling and grinding out mount upgrades, crafting research, learned recipes/motifs, Mages/Fighters Guild, Undaunted, Psijic Order, Thieves Guild, PvP rank, etc is just too much for anyone to contemplate.

About the best we can hope for is probably a deeply discounted sale on race change tokens, and maybe even deeper discounts as an ESO+ limited time exclusive.

You say this like it's some deep mystery to be solved...

Big CP changes? ZOS makes CP resets free or dirt cheap.

Leveled up a new character? ZOS has an automated system send you mail at specific intervals.

Something bugged? Support sends you maps, or Crowns, or, or, or as a consolation.

Purchased a new DLC or chapter? Instantly unlock new content, even if it's a pre-order.

Etc, etc, etc.

Surely a company like ZOS could find some way to run an automated function which:
1. Determines how many characters over level 50 an account has, and
2. Adds that amount of Race Change Tokens to their account

In a 'worst case' scenario, players don't race change 100% of their characters and they've banked some tokens. However, it is pretty much standard operating procedure in video-game-land that when you make massive, overarching, game-changing, character altering modifications to players' toons, you provide them whatever means is necessary to adjust said toons without penalty or cost.

I've been playing online games for a long, long time and the only time I have seen this NOT happen was when the game was specifically in Alpha/Beta and there was a disclaimer which said something along the lines of, "I acknowledge the races in the Ubergameia are not fully defined, and will not hold Ubergameia's staff liable for any mistakes I may make in light of this. There will be no refunds or reassignments of races if definitions or races are changed."

That ZOS would (1) make such sweeping changes, (2) expect players with more than one character to pay, out of pocket, to adjust their characters to these changes, (3) stoop so low as to offer said adjustments 'For Sale' when their sweeping adjustments are announced is really and truly unbelievable.

Rex-Umbra

I am very impressed, these changes look really good. I see less punishment for picking non meta race/class combinations and clear distinction between races strengths.

spoqster

What about exchanging the Oricsh Healing Received bonus with a massive Health Recovery bonus?

Inerar

4/4 all my MagDD's are dark elves. This pushes me to make them PVP builds, but what will i do at trials? I hope Necromancer's MagDD role will be nice and will be my mainlike DD toon.

My opinions in general;

Many players' MagDD's are dark elves. ZOS could consider this.

Argonian nerf is normal i think.

StamSorc redguard will be the luckiest redguard.

Bretons became more flexible at magicka roles.

Nords extra ulti is nice but still they can only play tank role and i was expecting better buffs for them.

Orcs will be new most popular StamDDs.

Wood Elves could get bit extra Bow damage. They won't be a good choice. Only maybe for battlegrounds.

Let's see them all at PTS but i guess converting max stats percentages to flat damages will be also an all around nerf. I hope it won't. So many things to change but probably i won't use racial change token if it's also changing appearence, cause i love my toons.

Vemeroth

Not so sure how fond I am of the mathematical argument in the starting post, as a player's efficiency relies on more than just that.

VeiledCriticism

I can hear Bretons from all over Tamriel singing and enjoying these changes. I'm a little bitter over the Argonian changes, but it is currently out-performing most of the other classes.

Good job on this changes.

Salvas_Aren

Wow, I have to look now how many chars I can stomp into the bin.

Oskad

seen that a lot of player has more character the fairest thing is to give 1 per character personally I have 9 !!!

John_Falstaff

SodanTok wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

As a follow-up, forgot 15% from CP passive - accounting for that, equilibrium point between old and new stats (with Endurance) would be around 1000 base regen. If the build sits around or below that (and runs CP passive, Major Endurance and optionally Minor), regen either will be the same or better than before, or so it would seem.

The passive will be buff in any pve situation imaginable as the equilibrium point is much higher than you assume. New 75 recovery on khajiit is 127 recovery after buffs at minimum and on most builds to something like 148 on vampire nightblades.
So even at lowest the point would be at 1270 base recovery. At most builds have 958 recovery (dubious + stormfist) so only if they bothered to put 2 recovery enchants on their jewelry (nobody serious in pve would ever do this) they would get more.

Oh, thank you for correcting - I didn't remember the vampire passive since I never played any vampires, and completely forgot medium armor too. Seems like PvE setups are at the very least no worse than they used to be sustain-wise.

Ragnaroek93

Dunmer and Khajiit could need some love in my opinion, everything else looks good. Can't wait to see the new Woodelf and Orc passives in PvP, that should be amazing.

Taunky

Uh oh.

DawnWarrior

Developer Comment
Spoiler
Argonians by nature are resilient creatures, adapting to their surroundings and accumulating themselves to the environment. Their ability to shrug off potent diseases makes them harder to take down, and their connection with the Hist empowers their will for life. Their bonus to Healing Done makes them gifted at healing themselves or their allies, while their resource return after drinking a potion helps them stay in the fight. Regardless of their role, their ability to recuperate and get back into the fray is something to respect.

I apologize if someone mentioned this before, but I haven't read all the responses yet (and I can't seem to use the search function on the current thread only).
I believe the above word in bold, "accumulating", should be "acclimating".

TheMikrobe

On the whole I like most of the ideas behind all the changes, no idea yet whether the actual numbers need tweaking a bit. It is not so good for werewolves though:

Redguard: Martial Training: Reduces the cost of your Weapon abilities by 8%.
Orc: When you deal damage with a weapon ability you restore 380 Health and Stamina.

I would really like to see these changed to "weapon and werewolf abilites", like was done for the light and heavy attack bonus from Physical Weapon Expert in champion points.

Similarly for High Elves, "Restore 575 Magicka or Stamina, based on whichever is higher, after activating a Class Ability" should be "class and werewolf abilities".

DemonDruaga

Only one race change per account after such huge changes??
You guys are criminals in every way

Czekoludek

Nord tanks with that mad ult regen will be so op, nice change. Overall very good changes, maybe not for the dunmers, it shouldn't go live like that for them

SiAScORCH

Please give us more than one race change token. You've literally changed complete builds, and with that being said it's only fair that you give us race change tokens for every character. Make them expire after a month, but actually do something for your community. A lot of us are not happy and one race change token is not enough. This would make the community really happy.

Also it'll prevent people from going to PayPal to get their money back.

harmsway

Really think about the vet players with 12 toons. If you do something like this please give us more than 1 race change. I’d rather quit then have to shovel in $300 for just race changes.

Parasaurolophus

Still changes nothing! Zos? Where is "Allow more effective options when picking a race for each role in tanking, healing, or damage dealing". Argonian, Altmer and Redguard still totaly BIS.

Kruemeli

It seems the changes are not fitting with what is needed for PVP and what is needed for PVE. Some things are useless in PVP, others in PVE. Others in both...yeah talking about Bosmer for example.

ZOS should make specific racial passives that only work in pvp and only can be leveled up there. Not talking about general Assault and Support tree.

Also what would be awesome (on a sidenote) is to have a switch possibility on your character to pvp. What I mean is that in champion point screen you can quickly switch to your pvp setup, in skills that you can switch to a pvp bar setup etc. I think it is bit unfair that pvp skills can be used in pve but then again pve skills can be used in pvp. It is a mess to be honest.

Playing with your main and wanting all achievements on main it is a pain in the ass to keep switching and reallocating all. It would make eso gaming life much easier.

Asardes

Khajiit themed chapter upcoming, huge nerf to Khajiit. Well played ZoS, well played