Cyrodiil, Cheating/Exploiting, & You

Rohamad_Ali

So many people were going to up and leave if ZOS started banning people for gap closers . Yet I've been stuck in ques to get into PvP all weekend . I think it's having the opposite effect .

Turelus

What I am most sad about with all of this is for years a majority of the PvP population has called on ZOS to get off their butts and police Cyrodiil (and the game) to make it a fair and competitive place. We see threads from all factions, all levels of members asking for exploits and bugs which ruined the fun of Cyrodiil to be addressed.

We had two threads for about a month now discussing how cheating/exploiting was bad and how everyone wanted action taken, where it was clear that ZOS were moving closer to stepping up.

Now it's finally happened... people come out of the woodwork to cry how it's horrible and ZOS are wrong again.

Do we even know what we want at this point as a PvP community?

I will agree ZOS has had poor communication in this regard, I have posts all over these forums saying how they could do it better and have been fighting for better communication and enforcement for months.

But please, can we stop trying to make ZOS seem bad for finally doing what's good for the game and working on keeping the game fair.

InvitationNotFound

@FENGRUSH
as i sad, i agree with many points. just highlighted in my post where we disagree.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

InvitationNotFound wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Unreal that players say these bans should happen.

When everyone was using double mundus because the competition was using it - everyone knew it wasnt intended, but it was easy as hell to do. ZOS said they were aware of it and were fixing it. They werent saying report people for bans for it. They said yes - there is an exploit and we will fix it. THIS GOES FOR SO MANY "EXPLOITS" IN THE GAME.

People jumped inside enemy home bases and killed people endlessly at their respawn. ZOS said they were aware of it. THEY DIDNT BAN PEOPLE FOR EXPLOITS.


Im not defending these exploits. What Im trying to make clear to the community is that you CANNOT SUDDENLY ONE DAY DECIDE YOURE TAKING A FIRM STANCE AND DO THAT BY BANNING PEOPLE RETROACTIVELY. ZOS set the precedent on this issue. That precedent is that exploits will get addressed and fixed - specifically the ones that the community complained about the most (EI: gap closer for this patch). And yet this time around, people are losing their accounts. Is this an effective and fair way to do this?

I want an effective and fair solution, because it will bridge the community and ZOS. If you dont do that, people will be mad as hell from both the banned and those wanting fair and defined rules across the board.


@ZOS_RichLambert
@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Please realize the solution is important here. Any permanent bans should be reversed for activity that occured on players after this message was communicated. Players deserve communication, because what youre doing today is not what you did 3 6 months or a year ago. And please - do not lift bans on players using cheat programs/bot programs. This is pretty much the dirtiest thing players can ever envision. Many players were unbanned who used CE, and they are amongst us today, on our leaderboards, and staring us in the face to remind us that things are not fair.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQDm5rGhqaI

@FENGRUSH some valid points and some bs on your side

it isn't suddenly an exploit. they stated very often that bypassing the intended mechanic of breaking the walls is considered an exploit. so saying out of a sudden they call it exploit is nothing but bulls***. btw. this whole thing has been discussed quite a while and videos have been removed by ZOS employees. they reason for this was because they were calling it an exploit (yes, it is a joke.i completely agree here, and it shouldn't have been put on the live servers). anyway, that should have rang some alarm bells to players wanting to use that mechanic in such a way.

i agree that the communication is a problem as people who aren't reading the forum aren't aware. nonetheless, i don't think people like you aren't reading the forums...

furthermore, you come up with the mondus bug and say something like "hey, it was okay to use it. everyone was using it. so where's the problem with this one?" both are / were exploits. using any of these mechanics isn't okay and should have consequences. unfortunately it didn't have so far. i would consider it a good thing if they would ban (temporary - the first few times) people for exploiting. even in retrospective. guess what... everyone knew it was an exploit and wrong to use it but nothing would happen to them. so you consider changing this is a bad thing and would make people leave? well, might be a good thing if people who exploit every single sh** would leave.

another point is that you consider it fun to bypass that mechanic. well, that's your opinion. but i doubt the majority of the player base likes and enjoys that (besides that it is absolutely irrelevant). at least not according to all the forum posts.

and then you say "you can't ban people for your own mistakes". well, they can and they should, at least as long as it is clearly an exploit. let's stick with the mondus bug you came up earlier. everyone knew it is a bug. if you "didn't know" you were simply the worst type of *** out there. abusing a bug = exploiting. simple as that. if have an other opinion you probably should check the definition of the term exploit.

let's keep on going. "it isn't the fault of the players, you gave it to them". abusing a bug is the fault of the player. everyone using a gap closer to get on a wall or tower exactly knows what they are doing at that this can't be what the developers expected (they even "fixed" it once and made it more difficult to achieve. you even show how it know works after their "fix"). therefore, it is the players choice and their fault.

another point regarding "people are going to lose faith". well, of course they should fix the mess they've created. the game is in a bad state without a doubt. we all know how long it takes to "fix" things and this is very likely not going to change (and even if it would, you can be certain that there will be bugs from time to time. every piece of software has bugs). as this won't change the least they could and should do is going for people who are exploiting the cr** out of it. this has nothing to do with "losing faith". that's actually a little improvement.

with most of the other things i agree...

People have been bypassing doors and walls since the inception of the game though. They never banned for it, whether or not they labeled it an exploit. For a while it was DKs pulling with chains, always DKs with leap, NBs through doors. This patch anyone with a gap closer can do it. Now people are going to be banned suddenly? Its fine to set the bar now if they want to - Im not suggesting they shouldnt. But to not communicate it, is poor on their part. To permanently ban anyone on the ouset is even worse, especially if youre unbanning people for gaming the market and using cheat engine - both much more offensive issues.

as i said in my original post.

i agree that the communication is a problem as people who aren't reading the forum aren't aware. nonetheless, i don't think people like you aren't reading the forums...

it is a communication issue. there should be something in game to make people aware. a welcome to cyrodiil message or whatever. ToS and forums aren't read by many people.

Furthermore, i believe the ZOS statement that bypassing keep mechanics is an exploit might be as old as the issues you've described.

Regarding:

FENGRUSH wrote: »

To permanently ban anyone on the ouset is even worse, especially if youre unbanning people for gaming the market and using cheat engine - both much more offensive issues.

See:

i would consider it a good thing if they would ban (temporary - the first few times) people for exploiting.

I don't consider such exploits as a reason for a permanent ban, unless a player keeps on exploiting such bugs over and over again. handling this stricter than the CE story would be pretty bad. but i haven't seen any information regarding this yet. any sources? reliable sources? of people who have been permanently baned for gap closers?

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Its fine if they want to change their tune now on this, but the point stands its going to be rampant and places it will be used the most are backdooring keeps and scrolls - which is the worst use of this. Front line fighting with this isnt that bad, you KNOW they are coming in, you are there to fight already. But losing scrolls and keeps that never flagged is a whole different story. And those people wont get any punishment.

both is an issue. you only need one idi** to get the enemies in your keep and you can find yourself in troubles as you wouldn't have expected enemies there and you haven't seen them coming. anyway, i agree with the keep / scroll capture part. how the handle the situation is the problem here. if there were game masters (which i doubt any of them are existing) that could be solved. but i agree, that won't be the case and they most likely will go unpunished. but just because they likely aren't due to the lack of evidence doesn't mean everything else has to be considered as not a problem at all.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Saying its not the fault of players/can ban people for their mistakes is a valid point I think. Its one thing if the bug is discovered in live. Its another to discover you have a completely broken mechanic a month into the test server and never address it. Its not communicated anywhere outside of these forums? How will people really know? Im not saying they wont know its an 'exploit' or 'unintended'... but how will they know they can be banned? People are just saying who cares, they should be, because theyre bad people for doing something like that. Which is completely irrelevant - the point is making clearer guidelines and communicating them to the playerbase effectively. Responding to a random post in an isolated forum is not how you do it, or enforce it. You dont just hand out bans either, you communicate to people that are caught doing it and roll out a practical solution. The support teams strategy is not effective at solving issues, its an attempt to damage control. I want real solutions - so should everyone else. Effective communication and consistency is the key to delivering that solution. Secondly, we need better decisions from up top not to roll out changes like this that are so easy to do by the entire playerbase. Reason is, many people are/will still use this bug, and it incites others to do it maliciously as well.

old story. they push almost everything they have on pts to the live servers. that's the reason i'm rarely on the pts and given up testing as my reports (and of course others) are completely ignored (i guess the only functionality that has been postponed was their first attempt of changing the animation priorities). point is, here is where people are "losing faith". the cr** keeps coming. they reinvent the game with almost every dlc. and this likely won't change. and btw. that's another topic in my opinion. you would still have to deal with people exploiting bugs even if they wouldn't release that much cr**...

regarding the last part in bold:
here we are again, their communication skills are week. as mentioned above and in my original post, they should find a way to communicate this in game.

Zenetrax

Sallington wrote: »

If I accidentally misclick my gap-close button and charge onto a keep wall (it's really that easy to do), does that mean I'm at risk of being banned if someone reports me?

Should we all unslot Critical Charge until this mess is fixed?

I've ressed you like 5 times today.

Bromburak

Alishka_Gunter wrote: »

As a grown adult, you have a conscience. You know to cheat others in real life or within a game is wrong. Period. The fact that certain cheats should be allowed or shouldn't, or that anyone would require a guideline to what penalties are for exploitation and or cheating is incredible to me.

Seriously. Cheating is wrong. Exploiting is wrong. Finding an exploit, reporting it and not abusing it is fine. The problem comes when you abuse the exploit.

I just don't understand why is concept is hard to understand.

Sorry, but you are mixing up different things now.

You are making assumptions and only expect how things should work as a player because it seems to be common sense. But it totally doesn't matter because it's not the players job to decide what is wrong or right or making a guess about the concept.

DK leap did work as expected originally, you hopefully remember some official statements on how to raid keeps and the trailer before release seeing DKs flying/jumping into inner keeps. But then ZOS started to make changes that cause terrain ignorance with impact to all gap closers.

Now ZOS backpedals and says DK leap is not allowed any longer for leaping into keeps.
Imo thats the right call but it also shows that ZOS have changed their mind again from the original concept because everything is out of control.

Players are not stupid we know that they have technical issues with terrain ignorance that cause impact to any gap closer and almost any place. Well this is not the way how to deal with problems though.

Alishka_Gunter

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Saying its not the fault of players/can ban people for their mistakes is a valid point I think. Its one thing if the bug is discovered in live. Its another to discover you have a completely broken mechanic a month into the test server and never address it. Its not communicated anywhere outside of these forums? How will people really know? Im not saying they wont know its an 'exploit' or 'unintended'... but how will they know they can be banned?

You have some valid points as brought up by the previous post. That said, I think you are giving the players too much credit for their actions.

It was discovered during the PTS and Zos removed the video showing how to do it because they said it was not intended and considered an exploit. I'll definitely agree that not enough players read the forums, especially the PTS forums. However the Eula states that you can be banned for exploiting. It's also common knowledge that cheating, grieving, harassing or exploiting in any mmo is not tolerated. They do not need a popular in game to explain that... Wait, they have that. It's one of the things you agree to when you first login to the game. The players that were banned (apparently the ban has been lifted after three days) were well aware their actions were exploitive and didn't care. If zos was going around banning players that had zero clue they were doing something wrong, then I'd openly agree with you. I haven't seen or heard of a single instance of players being banned for something after only doing it once.

ZOS_DaryaK

We've removed quite a few posts that were discussing disciplinary action on a specific account. Posts that referred to those post were also removed.

GreatWhite000

ZOS_DaryaK wrote: »

We've removed quite a few posts that were discussing disciplinary action on a specific account. Posts that referred to those post were also removed.

Can we not take time to talk about the fact that that "specific account" was banned before this post even existed?

Blacksheepart

I use my gap closer 'as intended' and end up under ground, falling through the world, in tress, rocks, below the streets in the sewers etc... and have to pay MY gold to get 'unstuck' (if I can ever get out of combat) or swap campaigns and run all the way to my group because the layouts are broken. Is this is a banable offence because some newbie sees it and reports me for exploits? Unbelievable.

Cinbri

When will you acknowledge that Malubeth is bugged? Or 6k hp ticks is intended?

Flynch

If you want to get rid of this 'exploit' (which to me sounds more like a fun dynamic in combat.... who really survives a gap closer into a manned keep for long anyway? I'll agree that taking an unmanned keep through gap closing is dodgy though) then just have insta-kill 'owner-friendly' spikes on the tops of the walls and leave all other interior keep 'exploitable terrain' as-is.

qrichou

Since zos said that some exlpoits can get you banned ,i noticed a different layout of cyrodil map.
Its 3 day,s now without an emporer .
Almost evenly divided keeps between factions,
More siege,s battles lasting up to 2hours for 1 keep.
I think the msg was clear and heard .
Its fun again.

Good job to everybody.

p.s. on scourge xbox1 eu.

Lava_Croft

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account.

Great words, but over two years of ESO has proven that being banned for exploiting is about as common as a performance improvement for Cyrodiil.

kevlarto_ESO

Cheaters and exploiters should be banned or suspended, hands down no ifs ands or buts, cheating is bad for the game and the players in the long run, I have no sympathy for cheaters or exploiters, I do not buy this I did not know I was cheating or exploiting, just and excuses, and if you are not cheating and get locked out of the game use the tool to get your account cleaned up. I wish ZOS would have taken a hard line stance in the beginning.

darjobuno

Okay been reviewing all the threads again, and I am fairly sold that the Add-On portion of the system should just be disabled completely in the PvP arena. If no third party programs are available for use you eliminate the chance of cheating.

Only things I see suffering from this is Add-Ons like skyshards, lorebooks, publicdungeonchampion, and Auto Invite. Any other Add-On especially ones that alter the UI create a potential for cheating.

The combat add-ons just eat up processing anyway.

So just turn off the Add-Ons in the PvP sandbox. Problem solved.

PainfulFAFA

anyone else came to this thread for lols? Cant take zos serious anymore

altemriel

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.

YES ZOS!!! FINALLY!!!! NO MERCY WITH THE HACKERS OR BOTTERS!!!

Alcast

1 Forumpost and everything is good? 99% of ESO Players do NOT EVEN READ THE FORUM.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

1 Forumpost and everything is good? 99% of ESO Players do NOT EVEN READ THE FORUM.

What do you suggest ? An ingame mail for everyone ? A popup announcement in the game ?
Not sure every single player wants to be bothered with stuff that concerns Cyrodiil only.
But why not.
I think ZOS shouldn't be shy. But the problem is, when there are so many unsolved severe bug issues in a game, it's hard to be strict with the playerbase.

PainfulFAFA

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

1 Forumpost and everything is good? 99% of ESO Players do NOT EVEN READ THE FORUM.

What do you suggest ? An ingame mail for everyone ? A popup announcement in the game ?
Not sure every single player wants to be bothered with stuff that concerns Cyrodiil only.
But why not.
I think ZOS shouldn't be shy. But the problem is, when there are so many unsolved severe bug issues in a game, it's hard to be strict with the playerbase.

And thats why you dont release a game thats still in alpha lol
Everything theyve done at this point is fix/balance stuff that is 2 yrs old while releasing and fixing dlcs and its messing up/delaying the game even more.

ZoM_Head

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.

Then you need to take action on a whole lot of players using "abilities such as gap closers to do things not within the realm of intended design..." on EU Trueflame, because it is just insane.

There are also certain players that are clearly using some sort of exploit with shuffle/dodge change (they dodge pretty much every attack) even when seriously outnumbered.

There are players that take so little damage, that when you combine skills such as ice comets, shooting stars, flawless dawnbreaker etc they take no more than 300-400 damage, even when they character is stunned and CC'd.

Not sure if they are using a cheat engine or a tool or just some combination of sets/traits/cp ingame, but kind of obvious that something is not right with them.

Cogo

Lava_Croft wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account.

Great words, but over two years of ESO has proven that being banned for exploiting is about as common as a performance improvement for Cyrodiil.

Wait, didn't you get banned when you showed us (pact) how to do 20/20 sieges?

_Chaos

brb leaping onto keep walls and killing carebears

Ishammael

The statement by ZOS in the OP is pretty weak.

Paragraphs 2&3 are self-contradictory.

"If we catch you" is an absolute joke. That is giving players free reign... so long as they're no caught. Now we're at the mercy of other players who would "report" you for any perceived action they don't immediately recognize (e.g. Orc Stam Sorc).

This is a joke. Complete joke.

Sallington

Zenetrax wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

If I accidentally misclick my gap-close button and charge onto a keep wall (it's really that easy to do), does that mean I'm at risk of being banned if someone reports me?

Should we all unslot Critical Charge until this mess is fixed?

I've ressed you like 5 times today.

LOL

Kalebron

I just want to complain here about the keep exploit not about the cheat engine which should be a permaban. How the heck is someone supposed to know that they are not allowed to jump into a keep with a gap closer if they CAN do it let alone can do it by accident? I have a simple answer for this. Fix it so they can't which you have except for DK's who still seem to be able to do, so I have assumed it is an intended part of the game mechanics. I recall the first time I jumped into a keep through a door, it was by accident. I did it a few other times, but did not continue doing because I died with quickness. For me it was certain death to jump inside a keep without the protection of a group, so I have done it maybe four times that I can count with at least three of them being accidents while the other was to see if I could do it. I was very angry the first time it happened because I was doing really well killing other players until then. As a consumer of a service and a person who enjoys playing a game, I do not see jumping into keeps as an exploit. I see it as an unintended benefit (depending on your survivability) by the consumer kinda like that whole thing with animation canceling. Gap closer gets people into castles quicker while animation canceling kills players quicker. I am not seeing a big difference here. The gap closer is considered an attack just like using your staff to whack someone in the distance. My point is, please just fix things you do not want people to take advantage of and there won't be a need to for your consumers to complain.

HELLB0UNDH0UND

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

1 Forumpost and everything is good? 99% of ESO Players do NOT EVEN READ THE FORUM.

What do you suggest ? An ingame mail for everyone ? A popup announcement in the game ?
Not sure every single player wants to be bothered with stuff that concerns Cyrodiil only.
But why not.
I think ZOS shouldn't be shy. But the problem is, when there are so many unsolved severe bug issues in a game, it's hard to be strict with the playerbase.

What's so bad about that? They have a freaking announcement board on the login screen! They could easily put something there. I played for almost a year before I ever found the official forums. It's good to have a main outlet for news and announcements, but it shouldn't be the only place you can find said information.

GorraShatan

With respect, while I agree with you 110% on cheat engine, on using gap closer to get into keeps, I think if you guys don't want this behaviour to happen you need to take some responsibility too for not fixing it. I realize it may be challenging and involve painting new zones onto the terrain or something like that, but seriously, this game has been out 2 years and it's sold millions of copies. There's been plenty of time and money available to Zenimax to do whatever it needs to to get things working as intended, even if that means hiring additional staff to work on skills and/or PVP.

Frankly, I don't think it's even a huge deal when used on keep outers and not taken to extremes. It's kind of fun to defend against. Think of it like people bringing ladders and siege towers to the battle. It brings a bit of variety to the siege. It should still be fixed eventually, but yah, I've never reported anyone for charging onto a keep's outer walls, nor will I.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Lately, we’ve seen a lot of questions about what we consider cheating and/or exploiting in ESO. The amount of people using exploits, especially in Cyrodiil, has also been on the rise. Due to this, and our recent efforts to take a stronger stance against exploiting and cheating in ESO, this has become a hotly debated topic within our community. We’d like to help shed some light on what we consider cheating and exploiting and how you can help us curb this behavior.

We would generally frown upon (and potentially take action as a result of) using third party tools or taking an advantage of an in-game mechanic that is not currently working as designed to in any way provide an advantage to your playing abilities. In plain English: if it looks or feels like cheating, then try it out at your own risk. Or better yet, don’t try it at all.

We have a zero tolerance policy for cheating/exploiting/using unapproved third party tools (such as Cheat Engine), so you should also know that even a single instance can lead to a 72-hour suspension, or even a permanent ban, depending on the offense. And in the specific case of Cheat Engine, even the first offense will result in a permanent ban.

There are certain things we’re working on fixing on our end to make this behavior no longer possible, but that does not mean it’s okay to exploit these issues in the meantime.

To summarize, if you are using abilities such as gap closers to do things that are not within the realm of intended design and/or bypassing core game mechanics, such as entering keeps without downing doors and/or walls and getting under the environment (ground, water, etc.), you are exploiting. In short: don’t do it. If we catch you exploiting and/or cheating, even once, it is grounds for disciplinary action up to and including a permanent ban of your game account. If in doubt about whether or not certain actions or activity are considered exploiting, you are welcome to ask us here on the forums.

Thank you all for your cooperation in helping us keep ESO free of cheating and exploiting, and a fun, fair environment for all.

Makkir

Ya know, if you smoke pot on the regular and then your company decides to start random drug testing...do you think they are going to "go easy" on you for smoking prior to them making it a policy?

It comes down to integrity. Have some. You know something is wrong, don't do it.

Zorgon_The_Revenged

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

anyone else came to this thread for lols? Cant take zos serious anymore

I just came in to lol at the names I recognise.....I bet they would even blame the stairs or that rock they just climbed up for lowering the elevation.