Cheating and Exploits

Cherryblossom

Can we get confirmation on whether or not we will get a permanent ban or just a slap on the wrist for being naughty if we cheat or hack?

Just asking as it's definitely not clear currently.

Rayya_Blackheart

Thank you for the update. Honestly, that's all I wanted to see. I guess I have no need for /torch anymore.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Can we get confirmation on whether or not we will get a permanent ban or just a slap on the wrist for being naughty if we cheat or hack?

Just asking as it's definitely not clear currently.

It is actually why i think this thread is kinda funny. They said they were taking time to gather info and let people cool off. I expected the lead post to be a stand against cheating and their plan going forward. Even if they actually did nothing it would at least make people feel a little better. Hey Zos hates cheating too, we are all in this together sort of thing.

Instead it is basically a post threatening the forum users and telling us to behave with no actually information about anything. So much for the group hug i suppose.

SirAndy

Cherryblossom wrote: »

Can we get confirmation on whether or not we will get a permanent ban or just a slap on the wrist for being naughty if we cheat or hack?
Just asking as it's definitely not clear currently.

Asking for a "friend" i presume?

Chori

Hello forum mods and almighty rulers of this forum/game

I am pretty sure you guys at ZOS can run directive codes inside the client to flag an account that is modifying client sided memory by a software that could be in this case, CE aka Cheat Engine, to then ban the account accordingly without even needing to go through an insane amount of in game logs. I am aware of the amount of work this could imply, even though I am sure you could hide such coding inside the client to make any programming braindead fool work harder instead of havint it so easy... My questions on these last sentence are:

*Why this was not done long ago?
*Why do we have ot point at you that even older software versions are still available and run compatible with the game? Do we really need to download the software, each version of it, on our own.... and attach it to you on a zip file through a ticket to get the attention it deserves (or even mail it to you to your office's door)?

Now regarding your policy and terms of service which is pretty clear and very similar to what every other game runs with, my questions are the following:

*Why Permanent bans from using THIRD PARTY TOOLS are being discussed upon giving a second chance while on the terms of service it clearly says it's strictly forbbiden? Do you understand this encourages players to abuse/use third party tools since they know they can be fogiven?
*Why after so long (since beta) none of you have come with a ban list or anything of that sort, to shred light to this community on the work Zenimax is supposedly doing?
*Why is it so hard to understand that we as community barely trust statemens being done without a proper background explanation and without the solid proof in our hands for us, your customers to judge or provide you with specific feedback? (Pretty sure nobody is asking you to provide logs or sensitive information of that matter, but if you do something, prove you are doing it please)

This is not a post to bash on your company or game, or programmers. Take it as you wish, I'm sure several players think similar and have the same questions. Sorry for any typos or bad wording.

Regards

Armitas

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone,

If you believe someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting, botting, or anything else that violates our EULA and Terms of Service, we want to know but we need you to report them using the appropriate channels. We fully investigate all reports of TOS violations. (See this Support article on how to report another player for inappropriate behavior.)

You can also submit a Support ticket via our website if you need to include screenshots and/or video footage of the player you are reporting. To do so, follow these steps:

1. Go to the Support page and log in
2. Choose “In-Game Support”
3. Select the “Report a Player” subcategory
4. Fill out the fields with as much detail as possible – if you know reproduction steps for what the player you’re reporting is doing, even better.
5. Attach any related files (screenshots, videos, etc.)
6. Hit the “Submit” button

Please note that we cannot discuss another player’s account status and details thereof with you, as doing so would be a violation of our Privacy Policy. This includes any disciplinary action we have taken on another player. In rare cases, we may decide to give a player who has been permanently banned a final chance after investigating a situation and speaking with them. If you believe a player with whom we have granted a final chance is violating our EULA and Terms of Service, please report them via one of the two methods described above.

Lastly, we are still going to wipe the Veteran Maelstrom Arena Leaderboards on the PC/Mac megaservers within the next few weeks.

No one has any faith in this system. We didn't have faith in it back when this game started. People had to get banned on the forums before anything would be done about certain exploits. It took a full effort from everyone spamming the forums while getting their threads consolidated just to get you to close the cyrodiil starting area to gankers and 0 bans were given to those who snuck in even though screenshots and videos were made. The only people who got banned were the people that stood out against it for the sake of the game. It's the same thing over and over again with you guys. The only reason anything at all is being done now is because someone sacrificed their account to force you into action. The program has been available for years. Why are you not actively seeking out exploits and coding against them. They are easily searchable on Google.

The system does nothing but fail us. There is a blog out on the internet from a hacker who all he does is hack games and blog about it. He reported this program and the early item duping after the launched. He even posted a guide on how to get unbanned because the system is broken. To get change in this game it takes a blood sacrifice from the players every time!!! because the system does not work.

itscompton

Nénlindë wrote: »

I've never seen a single hacker on ESO, I'm on PS4.

Probably not as common but there are some pretty suspicious players on PS4. A friend and I both have 501CP Nightblades with full gold gear. With the 20% weapon damage buff I have 4100 weapon damage unstealthed which tops 4700 when when attacking from stealth. I am also buffed to 20k spell and physical resistance most of the time after figuring in the 8 second boost from the shadow passives.
Yet a 361CP Stam NB player from AD was able to tank my damage, my friends damage plus two other 501CP DC players who were attacking him at the same time then killed everyone with one ambush/surprise attack combo each.
The NB in question couldn't be CC'ed and was also dodging 4-5 attacks in a row multiple times without rolling. We fought him a few times and only once did we get him below half health and when we did his vigor filled his bar in one tick.
I don't believe there is any legit way to account for what he was doing. I read and study every bit of info I can find on sets and builds for my toons and there is no combo that should make what he was doing possible. As a stam NB I can almost believe the damage output but the insane tankiness, the permanent Cc immunity, the amount of times I saw 4-5 dodges in a row without him using dodge roll and the fact vigor was able to fill more than half his health bar back in one tick leads me to believe PS4 client hacks are possible and being used.

Ashtaris

dimensional wrote: »

So what's the point of this thread, exactly? You're basically saying we can discuss disciplinary actions but we can't really discuss them because of your strict guidelines. It's kind of a pointless gesture to make IMO and kind of insulting. Just permaban cheaters, show us that they have been permabanned and be done with it. Anything less is unacceptable, and making threads to justify your lack of accountability is superfluous and doing nobody any favors. @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

^^This, so much this. Agree 100%.

Loralai_907

See, a lot of the people now have problems because it isn't known what the rules even are at this point in regards to this topic, which will then bleed over to other topics. It is a serious problem. The lack of faith and lack of trust isn't going to get any smaller by ignoring the problem. So I really do hope that you guys are not ignoring the problem.

I'm sure decisions were made with the best of intentions, or they were made without consideration of the ripple effect it would have. I'm sure decisions were not made with the intention of having this giant mess as the result. But that doesn't change the fact that there is indeed a mess. And it does need to be addressed. Because right now, it looks in a way that you are treating those of us who are honest and loyal as fools. I really hope that this has been worth it, seeing what the aftermath looks like.

It is unfair to punish the people that the only thing they have done "wrong" is feel wronged. You shouldn't do that and then let much more horrible decision makers walk free. That is a serious lack of balance in your punishment vs rules and policies structure. Because it appears that not being agreeable and/or questioning ZOS is the gravest of offenses. And that is just silly.

InvitationNotFound

Ashtaris wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

So what's the point of this thread, exactly? You're basically saying we can discuss disciplinary actions but we can't really discuss them because of your strict guidelines. It's kind of a pointless gesture to make IMO and kind of insulting. Just permaban cheaters, show us that they have been permabanned and be done with it. Anything less is unacceptable, and making threads to justify your lack of accountability is superfluous and doing nobody any favors. @ZOS_AlanG @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

^^This, so much this. Agree 100%.

some of the steps they could do would be pretty simple and could have already be done. and it would be simple to post an official statement.

fixing / improving the game is more difficult and people don't expect to see that tomorrow.

as we haven't seen the statements we're looking for but instead only this thread where we can't really talk about anything, one might ask himself what the purpose of this thread might be?

Zoner

FooWasHere wrote: »

Anyone who knows me on [EU] knows I'm the most enthusiastic supporter of the game, but @ZOS_AlanG , ZoS must realize that this is breaking trust badly.

Giving a short ban or unbanning people who hacked their vMA run is badly dropping the ball. Your credibility as a business partner, as someone I purchase and generously maintain a product from, is at stake.
The message you send is visible, banned players suddenly appear back in game. Don't do this.

Blizzard and Overwatch got it right, they came down hard and publicly on it. They may well not have gotten all, or even many of the hackers, but the message was clear. Your message is not cutting it.

-Foo

edit: grammar stronk

This.
As far as I'm aware, hacking is the ultimate sin in an MMO. It is one of the worst (if not the actual worst) offenses there is. ZOS has already admitted to giving second chances on this, unlike any other game I've heard of, so what I suppose I want to ask is:

What kind of discussion or reasoning could possibly lead you to unban a hacker? In the face of such vicious community opposition?

And if this won't get you a permaban then what will? Are we to assume that the disciplinary system is wildly unfair, unjust and that permabans (actual ones) aren't issued according to the impact your offence has had on the community or the amount of players asking for justice? Just whatever you feel like at the time?

Why, for instance, would you give hackers a second chance despite racking up previous offences but not someone who got a permaban for swearing?

Alex_Lex

Everybody lies.
If somebody tells you he was permabanned and now - not, why would you trust him?

Permabanned are yet permabanned.
That's what I can guarantee you.

Barbet

I knew there was cheating in PVP, when it got ridiculous I stopped PVP'n. Then when I heard that the cheaters were perma band I literally cheered out load and clapped my hands together. I remember joyfully yelling to my guild mates in teamspeak "ZoS got something right!". I resumed pvp'n and even restarted the pvp guild night.

I even finally got the invitation code sent to me so I could post here.

But from what I have seen, there has not been any rebuttal from ZoS stating perma means perma and not temporary. It is safe to assume that the cheaters are back hence no more pvp for me and my guild.

MODs please delete anything that I have typed that violates your restrictions on talking about this subject and leave the rest.



When I stop laughing, I stop playing.

SirAndy

Alex_Lex wrote: »

Permabanned are yet permabanned.
That's what I can guarantee you.

@Alex_Lex
You clearly missed the part where ZOS posted here on the forums that the perma-banned players have been un-banned.

Asgari

CE has been reported repeatedly since BETA with clear steps on how its used and how to check for it.

Barbet

maxjapank wrote: »

I'm all for giving people second chances when they deserve it. But there are well-known cheaters in the game. And almost everyone in the community know who they are. It is particularly these individuals that shouldn't have been given a another chance. When you banned them, Zos, there was a ripple of relief in the pvp community. And we felt good when we logged in, knowing that we wouldn't have to see these cheaters again. We began to have some faith in you. And now that these cheaters are back in the game, not on new accounts, but on their original accounts...we are really speechless. You really missed the ball here.

THIS!

Xylphan

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I know this is going to sound like splitting hairs, but, how do you know those 43 perma-bans are the same people you're seeing back in game? Is it possible there were additional temp-bans that were also issued but unmentioned for reported-but-unconfirmed-instances-of-cheating, and -those- people have returned?
Speculation, of course. I don't know any more, and potentially I know less than the rest of you.

Some of us actually know some of the people that were perma-banned only to return to the game a week later.

And by "know" i mean virtually, in-game, being members of the same guild(s).

Then maybe you should be directing your frustration at them, since they're the ones cheating.
Or reporting them.

I think that's part of why people are so rightfully disgusted with ZOS. These people were reported, confirmed as exploiting, and allowed back in. CE has apparently been reported since BETA and nothing was done. The anger and outcry you're seeing is because of ZOS inaction and terribad policies, telling players to report exploiters at this point is like an ER nurse telling a someone having a heart attack to go call their insurance company again.

You know, as much of a ZOS apologist as a I seem. I get it, I understand the frustration. I really do. I just don't often jump on the hate bandwagon, because there are plenty of people espousing that side of the argument.

I also know what I don't know. I don't know why CE has continued to be an issue as long as it has... I'm not a software engineer and I don't know how it interacts with the game. I don't know what the technical limitations are, or how it keeps happening.

I know, now (thanks Google!), that there are many versions and that it's regularly updated. Perhaps one of those updates has made bypassing the ban possible?

I don't know. And -since- I don't know, I'm not going to level accusations of incompetence or apathy at people who know more about this stuff than I do.

Then as a professional software engineer with almost 20 years of experience on everything from limited embedded systems up to large scale HPC supercomputers, let me tell you that the fact this type of hack is even possible is mind boggling.

You may think "well big deal, so someone can drop infinite meteors". It's not the use that's mind boggling, it's what that type of hack represents. I can think of a dozen potential attack vectors that could be explored just based on that information alone, with some potentially being catastrophic to the game itself if certain safeguards aren't in place.

And if I, as a white hat, can think of them you can be certain that black hats already have as well. I take a bit of comfort in the fact the game is still here and to my knowledge there's been no system level compromises, so it does appear that the most important safeguards do exist.

Caligamy_ESO

I think what I can't stand the most about this situation (even though I try my best to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist) is that there is a complete and total lack of transparency concerning disciplinary action in this game. What we are left with is this feeling of wondering who the actual cheaters are, whether this other person pulling amazing dps numbers or killing us in Cyrodil are legitimate players or just cheating/hacking/exploiters.

For example I was once in a guild where a new member had joined and after a while when they finally got guild bank access they ripped off every high priced item they could get their hands on as quickly as possible before the officers caught it and kicked him out. They too had adopted this policy of no naming & shaming which to be quite frank was completely ridiculous and absurd. How am I supposed to know who I can or cant trust going into the future should they happen to join my other guilds seeking to pull the same exact scam?

This is how I am viewing ESO as a whole lately. How am I supposed to know anything when these policies designed to keep us in the dark exist? What exactly is the purpose of protecting players who I have zero desire to be associated with or play along side? If I am left to guess then I can assure you I will only assume the worst and just not associate with any of it at all.

If there is no accountability, then why should you have the public's respect?

ShedsHisTail

Xylphan wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

SirAndy wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I know this is going to sound like splitting hairs, but, how do you know those 43 perma-bans are the same people you're seeing back in game? Is it possible there were additional temp-bans that were also issued but unmentioned for reported-but-unconfirmed-instances-of-cheating, and -those- people have returned?
Speculation, of course. I don't know any more, and potentially I know less than the rest of you.

Some of us actually know some of the people that were perma-banned only to return to the game a week later.

And by "know" i mean virtually, in-game, being members of the same guild(s).

Then maybe you should be directing your frustration at them, since they're the ones cheating.
Or reporting them.

I think that's part of why people are so rightfully disgusted with ZOS. These people were reported, confirmed as exploiting, and allowed back in. CE has apparently been reported since BETA and nothing was done. The anger and outcry you're seeing is because of ZOS inaction and terribad policies, telling players to report exploiters at this point is like an ER nurse telling a someone having a heart attack to go call their insurance company again.

You know, as much of a ZOS apologist as a I seem. I get it, I understand the frustration. I really do. I just don't often jump on the hate bandwagon, because there are plenty of people espousing that side of the argument.

I also know what I don't know. I don't know why CE has continued to be an issue as long as it has... I'm not a software engineer and I don't know how it interacts with the game. I don't know what the technical limitations are, or how it keeps happening.

I know, now (thanks Google!), that there are many versions and that it's regularly updated. Perhaps one of those updates has made bypassing the ban possible?

I don't know. And -since- I don't know, I'm not going to level accusations of incompetence or apathy at people who know more about this stuff than I do.

Then as a professional software engineer with almost 20 years of experience on everything from limited embedded systems up to large scale HPC supercomputers, let me tell you that the fact this type of hack is even possible is mind boggling.

You may think "well big deal, so someone can drop infinite meteors". It's not the use that's mind boggling, it's what that type of hack represents. I can think of a dozen potential attack vectors that could be explored just based on that information alone, with some potentially being catastrophic to the game itself if certain safeguards aren't in place.

And if I, as a white hat, can think of them you can be certain that black hats already have as well. I take a bit of comfort in the fact the game is still here and to my knowledge there's been no system level compromises, so it does appear that the most important safeguards do exist.

Good to know.
I bow to your expertise and take comfort in knowing this is not a likely cause.

clayandaudrey_ESO

This thread is nothing but a PR stunt because of all the bad publicity this has gained. After closing and warning and muting so many people and the backlash this whole thing garnered this is nothing but a vain attempt to look like the good guys. However it is nothing but a failure. Nothing has been resolved or will ever be resolved on cheating. It is the norm for eso.

Ffastyl

While looking up a legal reason why not to publish the names of banned accounts, I happened across a logical reason:

[In response to asking if they can be published]
A couple of questions for you.

On June 7, 2013 it is published that Oranges has been banned for warping (or whatever).
On June 12, 2013 it is determined that an error occurred and Oranges was not warping. Oranges is reinstated.
On June 13, 2013 a retraction is published stating that the ban of Oranges was a mistake and that Oranges has been allowed back into the game.

Question 1: How many people will remember the ban but not the retraction?
Question 2: Of the people that did read the retraction and remember it, how many will believe that Oranges is truly innocent?

Source: https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/can-we-publish-the-names-of-the-account-bans.200679/#post-2959687

Where I can say such a "Wall of Shame" would come in handy is if a player has been proven beyond shadow of a doubt (cheat detection positive and video proof) to be cheating and should be permanently banned. In this case the player can be immediately reported if found ingame again by somehow circumventing the ban or if proof can be provided that the banned player has created a new account (if bans are account only).

Leogon

Is it just me or are the rules more against honest players than they are against cheaters? E.g. You can get a forum ban for naming a cheater(with a video as proof) but a cheater can get unbanned for cheating.

SirAndy

Leogon wrote: »

Is it just me or are the rules more against honest players than they are against cheaters? E.g. You can get a forum ban for naming a cheater(with a video as proof) but a cheater can get unbanned for cheating.

I would tend to agree. It certainly feels that way ...


[snip]

[edited for discussing moderation]

dagonbeer

Rayya_Blackheart wrote: »

Thank you for the update. Honestly, that's all I wanted to see. I guess I have no need for /torch anymore.

What update? There's been absolutely no official word on anything. I will say that the cooling off period worked, since I don't see a lot of the more heated posters from before, in this thread.

I think they may have cooled off ESO though.

NativeJoe

I think ZOS should just get thier massive litany of Game testers together. and put out videos to the masses of What *Looks* like cheating, but isn't. Then show some videos of what Cheating DOES look like.

Then take moment to explain the consequences of doing such. Make a statement with it, and stick to it.

For instance, with a combination of quest buffs and armor buffs racials and whatnot you CAN achieve amazing speeds for a few minutes. BUT out in cyrodil running twice the speed of a max speed mount just isn't possible.

show what a animation canceling and quick swap buff bar with looks like.

Or the extreme ends of damage mitigation, what you wearing, what your doing to achieve such like the innocent blixeys set up.

Put to rest the non-legit *cheating claims* and help educate the public of the possibilities.

Like many of KenaPKKs performances do look like cheating when he takes 15 people on at once. but it's amazing muscle memory, strategic targeting, and well timed ultimates that allow him to walk through entire zergs unscathed. Or in many cases dueling get togethers lol.

Or show Zergbads 2-3 hit instant gib combos. Show how people can 1sec shot tanks in heavy armor.

Show what it takes to perform these things, show the numbers, explain them, and educate the public on a massive scale.

I've fought the elites, I've fought cheaters, I think I know the difference...but many don't understand. Like when your fighting a WereWolf with 32k hp that is wearing malubeth and he doesn't ever leave the form and doesn't really ever lose health...people look at that and are like OMG cheat engine or some other blasphemy.

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics.


Remember to Stop doing this!
and...
go see your local khajiit

And recognize what is and is not cheating, and Back up your claims with video evidence because...

Rayya_Blackheart

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

A large number of posts have been removed from this thread. Please stay on topic, and respect the forum rules.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We had closed the previous thread because of the number of problems, and because we thought a break until we had new information would be helpful. We’ve received a lot of feedback that people would rather have an open discussion now, so are putting this up.

@ZOS_AlanG
Do you happen to have any new information you can share with us?
I know it would go a long way to placate some folks if they could have a little window into how this was being handled.

No. We had planned to open a new thread once we had new information, but given the demand to have a thread now the decision was made to put something up now.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Thank you for making a thread, can it please be sticked?

I suspect this will remain active enough to stay on the front page without being stickied.

Autolycus wrote: »

And while we're at it, how about those leaderboard resets?

We are going to wipe the Veteran Maelstrom Arena Leaderboards on the PC/Mac megaservers within the next few weeks.

UrQuan wrote: »

I demand that ZOS starts threatening suspected exploiters!

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

• Demands or threats, specifically directed at the ESO team or suspected exploiters.

Oh, um, well this is awkward. Allow me to retract my demand

Careful, I can rename you "Spathi"

^ This update.

Manpoints

Thanks for the lip service. I'm yet to see a question of substance answered, just some fringy vague things, however you've managed to suppress all free mention of this and create a post about hackers that we can't talk about hackers, or punishment, or that their unbanned or provide evidence of it...

SirAndy

NativeJoe wrote: »

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics

@NativeJoe
As long as we also educate people on how stupendously easy it is to hack the ESO client memory to allow you to "walk into a group of people, mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone" and make yourself look like you're an "elite" player.

NativeJoe

SirAndy wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics

@NativeJoe
As long as we also educate people on how stupendously easy it is to hack the ESO client memory to allow you to "walk into a group of people, mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone" and make yourself look like you're an "elite" player.

Well that video prolly won't be public lol... But people have been talking about small modifications to their characters for a while now. and While everyone was going nilly willy with CE people where jacking their regens up sky high and that can certainly make you look like a elite player.

But trust me on the issue. It is completely possible to do legit. Blinxy for one did it all the time. Taking on 12+ people and survived and would sometimes even drag them into the water swim around and let the fish eat his chasers. Zos even went into private TS channals and declared his innocence and brilliance. So... it is possible to do apparently. I'm not pro-enough to know how... but It is a thing.

Manpoints

SirAndy wrote: »

NativeJoe wrote: »

We need the education out there. Many of these people don't understand that an Elite can walk into a group of people, Mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone. and that is legit game mechanics

@NativeJoe
As long as we also educate people on how stupendously easy it is to hack the ESO client memory to allow you to "walk into a group of people, mitigate a million (or millions) of damage in 2 minutes and kill everyone" and make yourself look like you're an "elite" player.

I dont know if there is any opportunity to call anyone in PVP an 'Elite player' anymore. Admit it, any player that is competent is going to be labeled a hacker, reported and shunned. Welcome to the time of "Safe Mediocrity". I'd like to see someone who has a spare account or just dgaf anymore test to see how well this 'detection' system is. My bet is it doesn't cover all avenues and lets be honest here - if it was that easy to implement something WHY ON EARTH WAS IT NOT DONE ON RELEASE?