Cheating and Exploits

Turelus

MuddledMuppet wrote: »

Guys, I said with justifying evidence, like what happens in the real world. By the time we reach adulthood we're all aware that people make stuff up, we learn to take everything into account when we receive an accusation and not just blindly believe whatever some says. Posting a video that doesn't prove cheating would have the opposite effect and reveal the accuser for what they are.

Not everyone in the real world believes only things which are backed by evidence.

People are stupid, they believe what they want to believe and will even reject facts and reason when it's clearly set out for them. We can see this in hundreds of real life debates, conspiracy theories etc.
The same would happen here, just because someone is found not guilty doesn't mean that members of the community will not have already made personal judgement and that person will forever be effected. You then only need those people who refuse to believe the truth to be the first point of contact regarding the issue for someone new to it and that new person will have a greater chance of taking on their view etc.

You idea works in the perfect world where everything is dealt with with rational logical thought but that perfect world doesn't exist so it's easier to just take the names out of part and let the GM/ZOS team deal with that. All we need know is that actions are taken often and with strong enough deterrent to make people think twice in future.

MuddledMuppet

As for why should zos name, there is a long standing legal principle that not only should justice be done, it should seen to be done.

As an aside, the main reason I went to consoles from PC was cheating. Not that it happened in every game, but how easy it was to cheat often soured my gaming experience, yes there were plenty of times I'd get beat and be pretty sure it was a cheat, and very many times I'd get beat and be pretty sure I was just outplayed. What always left a foul taste were the times I wasn't sure, I was either being conned or debasing my natural instinct to be fair to others by(silently) internally holding an undeserved suspicion about another person.

MuddledMuppet

@Turelie you make very good points and I do understand your argument, I remain in disagreement tho, ofc stupid people and conspiracy theorists abound, the majority of us do not generally take them seriously or allow their ill-judgement to inform our reasoning.

ZOS_AlanG

Several posts have been removed or edited from this thread. Please abide by the forum rules, and in particularly do not discuss moderation or attack ZOS. We understand people are frustrated, but it is important that this thread remain constructive.

Minalan wrote: »

Is it naming and shaming when we show chat logs of unbanned players laughing at ZOS's stupidity for letting them come back after blatant hacking, or does that fall under insulting ZOS employees?

Content like that would be considered naming and shaming, and should only be submitted through private channels rather than posted on the forums.

Bromburak wrote: »

It does, first of all we don't know how their detection and ban system is configured.
I assume that automation is part of the process and didn't work as expected.

Unbanned players could have been banned for something else that results in temp bans only
or the previous system was configured to temp bans only.

As well it's common sense that some cheaters are unbanned to observe them.
The issue here is, they trick the detection tools and before you can improve them you need to know and understand
what else these cheaters are doing.

While I agree that the unbanned part is confusing, ZOS will not tell us how the previous system was setup and of course
they won't tell us which players are observed either. The problem from customer perspective is that they don't trust in ZOS because they only see unbanned people but don't know the details.

And privacy rules are complicated and don't make public communication easier on this matter it just confirms once again why a company cannot just add a wall of shame with names and the ban reason just to satisfy the honest player base.

Privacy rules do make any discussion far more complicated, and we are very cognizant of that fact. However, these rules also protect people from harassment.

dap_robertb16_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG What new information? The only thing close is Jessica's announcement that you're wiping the VMA leaderboards soon, which isn't new information for anyone except those new to the game.

Appreciate there's a new thread on the topic, but it seems less about constructive criticism of the issue and more about having greater control of what's said from a PR perspective. Until there's actually some useful information from ZOS it's just too little too late for a number of players and further proof nothing will be done.

We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Universe

No second chances.
No mercy.

Anyone who is found guilty of cheating doesn't deserve a second chance.
Permanent ban without the ability to appeal is the best punishment.
Only by banning cheaters permanently it will be possible to achieve some game stability and discourage many players from choosing the path of cheating.
Definition of cheating: By using a third party program or changing the client code manually to be better.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom Not only veteran maelstrom arena scores needs to be wiped but also the Cyrodiil leaderboard and pve trials. everything.

Also, People who exploit bugs should be banned for at least 3 months.
example: leap into enemy keep while the walls and gate are 100%.
If the exploit is severe(duplicating legendary items etc.) so it will be reasonable to ban the player for 6 months to 1 year and wipe all the items in his inventory.

In conclusion, without harsh punishments everyone and their mother will continue to exploit and cheat.
There is an urgent need to make a stand against all cheaters and exploiters.
It will be great if there will be a sub forum of disciplinary actions(without names of characters or accounts).
For example: 89 accounts were banned in this week/day for cheating etc.

Note: This is my point of view and I only offer suggestions.

FortheloveofKrist

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Okay, well at least you are being honest that this is simply a damage control thread that is not intended to provide any actual answers.

ShedsHisTail

Haydenmango wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Haydenmango wrote: »

I am curious, why am I hearing about PERMANENTLY banned players having their bans lifted?

How did you hear these players were permanently banned?
Was there an official list that came out?

Or is that an assumption/hearsay that's being touted as fact now?

Sorry for the late response and for if this has been addressed. Also you are kind of distracting the thread seeing how you don't care about the issue and only really pester the people that do; try to ask a question to zos instead.

There was an official statement and zos said the bans were permanent. Then zos came out with a statement saying they may give permanently banned players a final chance to appeal.

So my question is why not just ban the cheaters permanently without appeal?
Without an answer we are left with guessing.

*edited to remove possible conspiracy theory

Sorry, I missed this last night.

True, I don't have much of a personal investment in the issue of "cheating," and as a result, in this thread alone I've been called names, I've endured attempted shaming and even indirectly been accused of being one of these cheaters simply because I'm willing to approach the issue with a different point of view. And that's a little sad.

However, things like customer service and policy and how those things are enforced are issues which affect us all. And I don't see how discussing the nature of that enforcement or the possibility that we may not, in fact, know all the details of the situation is in any way distracting from the issue at hand. You'll note that I was among the first to ask a direct question of ZOS (in this thread) and -the- first to receive any manner of answer; limited as it may have been.

As I've said before, I believe in the right to appeal if for no other reason that because bans can be issued by mistake. People can. and have, filed false reports. Bans can, and have, been issued to some people who've done nothing wrong. Without the right to appeal, those people on the receiving end become victims of whatever emotion fueled the false report in the first place.

clayandaudrey_ESO

Is this not stickied because you want it to fall off @ZOS_AlanG

daemonios

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one.

Well, it has been 3 weeks since the CE thing went public, which prompted this discussion. To be honest, it doesn't seem reasonable that after this much time there isn't a comprehensive response by ZOS.

Goldie

"Several posts have been removed or edited from this thread. Please abide by the forum rules, and in particularly do not discuss moderation or attack ZOS. We understand people are frustrated, but it is important that this thread remain constructive."

I am genuinely surprised that ZOS has'nt closed the discussion entirely.

I do have to say, with all due respect to those at ZOS who do work very hard at their job, the response to Exploit/Cheater reports is BEYOND PITIFUL.

Even trying to discuss exploits and or cheaters on these forums walks a fine line between making a point and/or getting a forum ban.

The ZOS response to this issue is the same as it always has been, non-existent.

I stopped playing the game regularly after 1.6 and after every patch I come back to see if there have been any improvements.

Each time I check back, Eric Wrobel has re-written the ENTIRE skill tree for every class and ability, and nothing has been done to remedy any of the issues that have existed for several months with some of these issues being around since launch.

What are you doing ZOS? Seriously. We understand that you " wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic." but there is ZERO action taken in any circumstance. ZOS, you should take a lesson from Blizzard in the sense that they are actively combating exploiters and hackers, and showing their customer base that it WILL NOT be tolerated.

Ive reported players for botting, exploiting, and hacking, with AND without video proof, yet I see these players day in and day out continuing their BS. I understand that not all players are hacking and I do not take reporting a player lightly.

Spamming ultimates one right after the other, speed hacking, using macro programs to exploit animation cancelling, you name it, it is happening and nothing is being done.

I've played since the first beta, and LOVED this game. I made how to videos, built a website around this game, and tried in every way i could to help this game be the GREAT game that we all thought it would be. All of it, time wasted.

Goldie

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Is this not stickied because you want it to fall off @ZOS_AlanG

Doesnt take a rocket scientist...

Animal_Mother

vamp_emily wrote: »

I personally would like some comment from ZOS about this matter. Has it been resolved? Can we now play without thinking that everyone is cheating?

I know you don't owe us any kind of comment on this matter but it would make us feel good knowing if its been resolved.

I personally haven't seen any cheating in the last week.. well none that I am aware of.

Sorry to disappoint, but this morning I had a Sorcs pet run pass me at ludicrous speed while all alone in Wrothgar. I chalked it up to someone forgetting to turn off their pet before running their farming script overnight. I used to see this in the starter islands all the time.

Couldn't report it. Pet went by way too fast to get a name from it.

Of course something like this could be easy to find on the server logs. Just look to see who is logged in for long amounts of time or see how fast they travel node to node.

Goldie

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Haydenmango wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Haydenmango wrote: »

I am curious, why am I hearing about PERMANENTLY banned players having their bans lifted?

How did you hear these players were permanently banned?
Was there an official list that came out?

Or is that an assumption/hearsay that's being touted as fact now?

Sorry for the late response and for if this has been addressed. Also you are kind of distracting the thread seeing how you don't care about the issue and only really pester the people that do; try to ask a question to zos instead.

There was an official statement and zos said the bans were permanent. Then zos came out with a statement saying they may give permanently banned players a final chance to appeal.

So my question is why not just ban the cheaters permanently without appeal?
Without an answer we are left with guessing.

*edited to remove possible conspiracy theory

Sorry, I missed this last night.

True, I don't have much of a personal investment in the issue of "cheating," and as a result, in this thread alone I've been called names, I've endured attempted shaming and even indirectly been accused of being one of these cheaters simply because I'm willing to approach the issue with a different point of view. And that's a little sad.

However, things like customer service and policy and how those things are enforced are issues which affect us all. And I don't see how discussing the nature of that enforcement or the possibility that we may not, in fact, know all the details of the situation is in any way distracting from the issue at hand. You'll note that I was among the first to ask a direct question of ZOS (in this thread) and -the- first to receive any manner of answer; limited as it may have been.

As I've said before, I believe in the right to appeal if for no other reason that because bans can be issued by mistake. People can. and have, filed false reports. Bans can, and have, been issued to some people who've done nothing wrong. Without the right to appeal, those people on the receiving end become victims of whatever emotion fueled the false report in the first place.

Players get emotional with the outright exploitation of the game they love and have invested a LOT of time into. If ZOS was more vocal about actually "taking action" I doubt people would rage so hard, because they would have the reassurance that ZOS was actually doing something about it. But we get neither assurances nor action.

Goldie

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Okay, well at least you are being honest that this is simply a damage control thread that is not intended to provide any actual answers.

They are getting rid of anyone who implies that ZOS is failing to take action against hackers. I'll be gone before the day is out, regardless of whether or not I have actually broken any forum rules. The rules are set up so that if you comment that ZOS is not taking your own complaints seriously they can ban you for "bashing ZOS". In reality ZOS has already done an inexorable amount of damage themselves by not publicly addressing or taking action on this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE for over two years now.

lustdog

pvp isn't cool anymore....
take an action ZOS or this cool game will die.....

Solid_Metal

Goldie wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We'd previously said we wanted to wait until we had new information before re-opening this topic. However, a large number of people contacted us to request having a thread in the meantime, so we created one. Some question what the purpose of the thread could be without new information, or without the ability to discuss specific bans. Those are reasonable frustrations, and in the meantime this thread is largely for general policy, or to simply express frustration. There are some very constructive posts for both.

Okay, well at least you are being honest that this is simply a damage control thread that is not intended to provide any actual answers.

They are getting rid of anyone who implies that ZOS is failing to take action against hackers. I'll be gone before the day is out, regardless of whether or not I have actually broken any forum rules. The rules are set up so that if you comment that ZOS is not taking your own complaints seriously they can ban you for "bashing ZOS". In reality ZOS has already done an inexorable amount of damage themselves by not publicly addressing or taking action on this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE for over two years now.

i already bashing them enough, probably my forum account will get trouble soon

if they have balls to do it in forum, why not ingame tho

Animal_Mother

I really don't believe temporary bans will solve the problem with cheating.

ZOS really should take away ill-gotten gains and then some. If someone gains 5 million XP/Currency/AP/CP through cheating they ought to be banned, but then upon returning find themselves short 10 million XP/Currency/AP/CP. Make them lose their gear, achievements, anything of value that they gained. Don't reset the quests they have done - make then re-earn the XP the old fashioned way - GRINDING.

Maybe ZOS could even open an Auction House populated with confiscated goods and equipment.

Get real tough with cheaters. Post weekly "Police Blotters". Give totals. Let players know you are serious about running a fair game. Make it so cheating doesn't pay. Then maybe, it will stop.

Tekyn

Goldie wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Is this not stickied because you want it to fall off @ZOS_AlanG

Doesnt take a rocket scientist...

...to figure out that this thread isn't leaving the front page anyway. It's not stickied because it's not useful.

Beardimus

As this is the official thread I assume its the right place to ask. Is gap closers to get onto outer wall / into keep officially cheating? When the walls / doors are intact? If so I have evidence of a whole guild doing it so was just curious if I should report that? Seems loads of people are at it so was unsure if thats intended or cheating? On console too so no hacking etc

Elsonso

Solid_Metal wrote: »

AnnieBeGood wrote: »

I don't want to know names. I don't want to know punishments.

I do want to know that the 3rd party programmes are not possible any more and I want assurances that this is so. I want to be sure my game is safe and other players and I are working under the same rules.

Trust. Regaining trust once lost is very very difficult.

i can assure you its impossible, cheaters always exist, and the cheat technic will always evolve and and beat the game security

the REAL problem here, the lack of BALLS/GUT ZoS have, they cant even enforce they own rules, in the end all of those cheaters have nothing to afraid of

In the end, this is the truth. ZOS cannot prevent programs like Cheat Engine or one of the bot programs from being used. The best that they can do is make it unattractive to use them, technically or through punishments.

I like the "alternate punishments" idea posted above. I think that people who cheat should only get Training and Exploration. Not just some of the time. Not most of the time. All the time.

Shazgob

Turelus wrote: »

I'm a little tired of posting on this issue because it's the same back and forth every time. We come to you (ZOS) with information or requests for information and only get blanket answers without the issues ever really being discussed of resolved.

So here are some ideas which might be a better thing for everyone.

Firstly make a page about cheating/exploiting.
Other MMO games sometimes have a page which is dedicated to informing players what are and are not considered exploits and what players can expect if rules are broken.

A couple of examples of this:-
Blizzard Exploit Policy
EVE Online Known and Declared Exploits / EVE Online Ban Policy

I feel this would be the first good step for ZOS because it helps inform the community as to what is and can be reported as an exploit (we still see/hear people reported for animation cancelling). ZOS can also have a leg to stand on when you decide to enforce things because you'll be able to point to this page.

Make sure the page is fully announced, linked on both the launcher and the log-in screen clearly for people to review at any time. I also feel with something like this in place we might finally be able to get a stance on issues such as bypassing keeps walls, running scrolls for rival factions etc. as whilst they're not directly exploiting the game it seems areas neither player or ZOS are happy about.

Also players understanding what kind of bans system you have in place would go a long way to avoiding drama like this week gone. As I said in other posts throughout, if we knew there were suspensions or that you would take a strike policyy against accounts then we wouldn't have screamed bloody murder when we saw "permabanned" players back in the game.

Organise Things On Your End
This one is tricky to talk about because we don't know what happens on your end. However it seems clear that somewhere there is a block between "Report Exploit" and "Developer Fix" as seen with the survey reports exploit.
The moment that an exploit lands on someone's desk with a clear way to recreate it then it should be monitored in game and patched out next incremental.
The reasons you keep seeing players making threads telling everyone about them or how to do them is because they're angry that things get left so long when clearly reported.
From Kai's comment in another thread the other day it also seems like you don't have active in game Game Masters any more, whilst this is the modern era and most things can be done from outside of a client you still need to have a way to monitor events and track logs within the game if handled via an out of game tool. This way when issues come up you can follow them up by looking through logs or watching player activity live within the game.

Punishments That Matter
This is a huge one for actually discouraging you player base from cheating. When you take action against someone and it's only temporary and they'll be let back into the game then for the love of the Divines or Daedra DELETE ANY ITEMS GAINED FROM ABUSE.
If that single action is not taken it undermines the entire process and no one will care about the ban. Most people will be fine with a 72 hour - 14 day ban if when they come back to the game they get to keep thousands of materials, millions of gold or stacks of Maelstrom weapons they farmed whilst cheating.

This is also one of the reasons you see more and more people exploiting each time it happens, no one fears ZOS and everyone wants the rewards gained from abuse as there are no repercussions.

Communicate
When something happens, make a statement ASAP.
Jessica has done this a couple of times but it should be done every time a large issue comes up. It should also be added to the launcher/log-in screen.
Just a simple statement saying something like.

"It has come to our attention that there is currently an exploit involving survey reports, be aware that we take exploiting very seriously and will be monitoring the issue and any accounts caught making use of this issue will be subject to sanctions pending an investigation. Anyone with information should contact us via a support ticket"

I want to point out that even saying the issue is involving survey reports is not too much information given if (and this is a big if) ZOS has the reputation of taking action. Again I refer to EVE Online where when something happens we see this kind of response.
This will be as I said above on their news feed, their launcher and formally the log-in/character select screen.

Once an issue is resolved make another statement saying it's cleared up and how many actions had actions taken against them. You may think this is bad to advertise because people might think ESO has problems, but you may also notice the press coveraged by news websites when developers take action against accounts and it gains good press. I mean when I am reading about Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft in the BBC Tech News you know they're doing something.
Even when their forums are spammed with issues threads like ours there is world news stating they're doing good things to police their game.

Players Grow the Ef Up
For us players we need to start growing the ef up and stop acting like children.
This means stop blaming all your problems on someone else "exploiting" stop reporting people for explioting for every little thing, stop with the dumb mass reports of other players etc.
Don't muddy the water on what an exploit is and stop making drama on the forums about it. If someone cheat or exploits and you have enough proof for it then submit a ticket in game with as much information as you can, then take down the ticket number and PM Jessica, Gina, Kai and any other community reps on the forums with the ticket number and the information provided in it.

Last to ZOS
I really don't understand what the issues you face are, I can rant and rave and make posts like this but I will never understand what happens behind the scenes for you all.
However coming from 7 years of EVE Online I have seen a small Icelandic company with a game holding less than 500k subscribers handle things better than a company with millions of dollars behind them and a much bigger player/subscriber base.
To me that just seems illogical, if anything you should be going above and beyond what CCP Games can do because you have the money they lack.

I give you all a hard time, I am angry right now over this and other things, I have cancelled my sub for only the second time since launch because I have lost faith in you. I love this game, I invested a great deal into it and I walked away from 7 years of another MMO and friends there (none of them play ESO) to be here for this game and this community.
Please start doing something that is needed to turn all of this around and make ESO a place where competitive and hardcore players can come to enjoy the game without battling both the cheaters and the company they hide behind.

This post took me 40mins to write apparently, I hope someone reads it.

The worst part is, @Turelus , is that players will read it, ZoS will not, because their devs either: Can't read or won't read.

Sad, hard truth is: Zenimax does not care about you, me, or anyone else. They only want money, not to make anyone actually enjoy this game.

dennissomb16_ESO

AS far as the naming and shaming that people talk about I am pretty sure that people would be satisfied if ZOS posted names of banned accounts AFTER they had done their investigations and confirmed the player was breaking TOS to a bannable level. No player should be able to name and shame on the forums simply for the havoc it would cause to (lets be honest) far more innocent then guilty players.

ZOS investigates, ZOS confirms, ZOS bans, ZOS names.... All players cheer the good name of ZOS

Solid_Metal

Shazgob wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I'm a little tired of posting on this issue because it's the same back and forth every time. We come to you (ZOS) with information or requests for information and only get blanket answers without the issues ever really being discussed of resolved.

So here are some ideas which might be a better thing for everyone.

Firstly make a page about cheating/exploiting.
Other MMO games sometimes have a page which is dedicated to informing players what are and are not considered exploits and what players can expect if rules are broken.

A couple of examples of this:-
Blizzard Exploit Policy
EVE Online Known and Declared Exploits / EVE Online Ban Policy

I feel this would be the first good step for ZOS because it helps inform the community as to what is and can be reported as an exploit (we still see/hear people reported for animation cancelling). ZOS can also have a leg to stand on when you decide to enforce things because you'll be able to point to this page.

Make sure the page is fully announced, linked on both the launcher and the log-in screen clearly for people to review at any time. I also feel with something like this in place we might finally be able to get a stance on issues such as bypassing keeps walls, running scrolls for rival factions etc. as whilst they're not directly exploiting the game it seems areas neither player or ZOS are happy about.

Also players understanding what kind of bans system you have in place would go a long way to avoiding drama like this week gone. As I said in other posts throughout, if we knew there were suspensions or that you would take a strike policyy against accounts then we wouldn't have screamed bloody murder when we saw "permabanned" players back in the game.

Organise Things On Your End
This one is tricky to talk about because we don't know what happens on your end. However it seems clear that somewhere there is a block between "Report Exploit" and "Developer Fix" as seen with the survey reports exploit.
The moment that an exploit lands on someone's desk with a clear way to recreate it then it should be monitored in game and patched out next incremental.
The reasons you keep seeing players making threads telling everyone about them or how to do them is because they're angry that things get left so long when clearly reported.
From Kai's comment in another thread the other day it also seems like you don't have active in game Game Masters any more, whilst this is the modern era and most things can be done from outside of a client you still need to have a way to monitor events and track logs within the game if handled via an out of game tool. This way when issues come up you can follow them up by looking through logs or watching player activity live within the game.

Punishments That Matter
This is a huge one for actually discouraging you player base from cheating. When you take action against someone and it's only temporary and they'll be let back into the game then for the love of the Divines or Daedra DELETE ANY ITEMS GAINED FROM ABUSE.
If that single action is not taken it undermines the entire process and no one will care about the ban. Most people will be fine with a 72 hour - 14 day ban if when they come back to the game they get to keep thousands of materials, millions of gold or stacks of Maelstrom weapons they farmed whilst cheating.

This is also one of the reasons you see more and more people exploiting each time it happens, no one fears ZOS and everyone wants the rewards gained from abuse as there are no repercussions.

Communicate
When something happens, make a statement ASAP.
Jessica has done this a couple of times but it should be done every time a large issue comes up. It should also be added to the launcher/log-in screen.
Just a simple statement saying something like.

"It has come to our attention that there is currently an exploit involving survey reports, be aware that we take exploiting very seriously and will be monitoring the issue and any accounts caught making use of this issue will be subject to sanctions pending an investigation. Anyone with information should contact us via a support ticket"

I want to point out that even saying the issue is involving survey reports is not too much information given if (and this is a big if) ZOS has the reputation of taking action. Again I refer to EVE Online where when something happens we see this kind of response.
This will be as I said above on their news feed, their launcher and formally the log-in/character select screen.

Once an issue is resolved make another statement saying it's cleared up and how many actions had actions taken against them. You may think this is bad to advertise because people might think ESO has problems, but you may also notice the press coveraged by news websites when developers take action against accounts and it gains good press. I mean when I am reading about Guild Wars 2 and World of Warcraft in the BBC Tech News you know they're doing something.
Even when their forums are spammed with issues threads like ours there is world news stating they're doing good things to police their game.

Players Grow the Ef Up
For us players we need to start growing the ef up and stop acting like children.
This means stop blaming all your problems on someone else "exploiting" stop reporting people for explioting for every little thing, stop with the dumb mass reports of other players etc.
Don't muddy the water on what an exploit is and stop making drama on the forums about it. If someone cheat or exploits and you have enough proof for it then submit a ticket in game with as much information as you can, then take down the ticket number and PM Jessica, Gina, Kai and any other community reps on the forums with the ticket number and the information provided in it.

Last to ZOS
I really don't understand what the issues you face are, I can rant and rave and make posts like this but I will never understand what happens behind the scenes for you all.
However coming from 7 years of EVE Online I have seen a small Icelandic company with a game holding less than 500k subscribers handle things better than a company with millions of dollars behind them and a much bigger player/subscriber base.
To me that just seems illogical, if anything you should be going above and beyond what CCP Games can do because you have the money they lack.

I give you all a hard time, I am angry right now over this and other things, I have cancelled my sub for only the second time since launch because I have lost faith in you. I love this game, I invested a great deal into it and I walked away from 7 years of another MMO and friends there (none of them play ESO) to be here for this game and this community.
Please start doing something that is needed to turn all of this around and make ESO a place where competitive and hardcore players can come to enjoy the game without battling both the cheaters and the company they hide behind.

This post took me 40mins to write apparently, I hope someone reads it.

The worst part is, @Turelus , is that players will read it, ZoS will not, because their devs either: Can't read or won't read.

Sad, hard truth is: Zenimax does not care about you, me, or anyone else. They only want money, not to make anyone actually enjoy this game.

hmmmmm moneeeeyy

Elsonso

Shazgob wrote: »

Sad, hard truth is: Zenimax does not care about you, me, or anyone else. They only want money, not to make anyone actually enjoy this game.

Not completely true, to be sure, but there is a kernel of truth buried in there. It is not that they don't care, it is just that we are a needy, high maintenance, and very vocal segment of the population that is really too small to be expecting the attention we seem to feel we deserve. I also think the bulk of the active players in the forum are off in a world separated from the typical ESO player, which certainly cannot help things.

So, yeah, while the forum is all concerned about cheating, I suspect that no one else really is. It happens and most players are unaware of it. Since they are only here for a couple months, it really isn't high on the list of things to be worried about. They will leave in a few weeks, and when they come back next year, they really won't care about what is happening today. If, by chance, it is still happening, does it really matter? They will finish Murkmire, then head off to play something else for a few months.

When your population is made up of vacationers, who really cares about these things? When you visit Six Flags, do you really care about the Park, or are you happy as long as the rides are working?

Animal_Mother

Beardimus wrote: »

As this is the official thread I assume its the right place to ask. Is gap closers to get onto outer wall / into keep officially cheating? When the walls / doors are intact? If so I have evidence of a whole guild doing it so was just curious if I should report that? Seems loads of people are at it so was unsure if thats intended or cheating? On console too so no hacking etc

This is one of the areas where we shouldn't face consequences for revealing how this is done and what keeps are susceptible to the exploit - it hasn't been addressed in 2+ years of PVP. It really sucks trying to defend the keep against the exploit when a close-nit group can jump the keep walls and flip it in under 2 minutes. I'm just thinking if everyone knew about this, ZOS might get around to fixing the problem.

Manpoints

Does anyone out there understand the concept of an MMO being driven by community? That we add a lot more to the value of the product not just by spending money but by playing it an pulling in other players in doing so? Whoever is making the business decisions to puck off everyone in lue of short term monetary gain is either very short sighted to the point of tearing down ESO, or, knows the expected run time of the product and is knows they don't have to worry about the long game.

Ackwalan

Still waiting for an official post from ZOS about how this is being handled. And by response, I mean more then just a reiteration of the rules.

Loralai_907

This has to be the most frustrating of situations. We have so many questions, and not a one of them can really be answered. I keep typing and deleting because there isn't a point to even ask. I'm super disappointed. The thing in question, the one that has everyone so mad, makes me ill. And I'm not pointing fingers, I'm not saying anything really. Because I keep trying to skirt everything but still get my point across. So I hope that whatever you all are up to turns out well. I hope that all of this turns out to be something far better than the way it looks. For me personally, this has changed my future plans. No I don't mean I hate you guys and I quit. I mean things I wanted to do, I really don't want to touch with a ten foot pole now. It shouldn't be that way. It makes me kind of sad actually.

Pomaikai

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

Hello everyone, we’ve started a fresh thread on the matter of cheating and exploits. This has been a big issue, and maintaining an open discussion on the matter is important to us. However, it is also important that this discussion stay on topic, and within the forum rules. In particular:

• We do not allow naming and shaming. Accusations of misconduct directed at anyone, even if not explicitly named, are not acceptable. If you feel someone is cheating, any information needs to be sent to us privately. Rules violations can be sent in-game or by submitting a ticket on our help site, and this is covered in more detail below. When reporting someone, please detail who you are reporting and why, the more information you can provide the easier it is for us to investigate. We welcome images and videos. With the latter, if it’s very long a timestamp may be helpful.

• We do not allow disciplinary actions to be discussed for specific members, whether named or not. General discussion of ESO policy is acceptable, but not commentary on what may have happened with specific people. Staff will not discuss the moderation status of an account publicly, or state whether an account has or has not been actioned. Allowing others to speculate on this can lead to a host of problems, and we are unable to clarify.

• Flaming or bashing is not allowed. This goes for abusive and disruptive comments and behavior that are directed at ZeniMax Online employees and ESO community members, alike.

• Demands or threats, specifically directed at the ESO team or suspected exploiters.

• It is important to keep comments respectful, and criticism constructive. We discuss this in greater depth here. There is a lot of value in having an open thread for discussing these problems, but it needs to remain civil and constructive.

We will remove any posts breaking the forum rules. In the last thread we tried to keep moderation to a minimum, but this just allowed the problems to escalate until we couldn’t ignore them. When removing posts we will generally remove any replies as well, since they often don’t make sense on their own, or continue off track discussion. If you feel someone is breaking the rules, we ask that you report the post and not respond to it.

We had closed the previous thread because of the number of problems, and because we thought a break until we had new information would be helpful. We’ve received a lot of feedback that people would rather have an open discussion now, so are putting this up.

As mentioned earlier, and explained in detail in the quoted post below, if you feel that someone is cheating or exploiting please send this information to us. Do not post details on how to preform an exploit, or who may be preforming them, on the forums.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey everyone,

If you believe someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting, botting, or anything else that violates our EULA and Terms of Service, we want to know but we need you to report them using the appropriate channels. We fully investigate all reports of TOS violations. (See this Support article on how to report another player for inappropriate behavior.)

You can also submit a Support ticket via our website if you need to include screenshots and/or video footage of the player you are reporting. To do so, follow these steps:

1. Go to the Support page and log in
2. Choose “In-Game Support”
3. Select the “Report a Player” subcategory
4. Fill out the fields with as much detail as possible – if you know reproduction steps for what the player you’re reporting is doing, even better.
5. Attach any related files (screenshots, videos, etc.)
6. Hit the “Submit” button

Please note that we cannot discuss another player’s account status and details thereof with you, as doing so would be a violation of our Privacy Policy. This includes any disciplinary action we have taken on another player. In rare cases, we may decide to give a player who has been permanently banned a final chance after investigating a situation and speaking with them. If you believe a player with whom we have granted a final chance is violating our EULA and Terms of Service, please report them via one of the two methods described above.

Lastly, we are still going to wipe the Veteran Maelstrom Arena Leaderboards on the PC/Mac megaservers within the next few weeks.

That huge freaking tome of a post and you STILL HAVEN'T SAID A DANGED THING!

What are the KNOWN exploits? People NEED to know so they can stop doing them.

What are the penalties for exploiting? First, second, and third offense?

What are the penalties for cheating? Define cheating better please. Is knowingly using an exploit again and again and again when one knows that it is an exploit considered cheating? It's pretty obvious that it is, but are the penalties different than say using something like Cheat Engine?

When, not if, but WHEN will ZOS start having in-game Game Masters policing end game content and Cyrodiil? You need live GM's looking for cheaters. People who can watch battles, especially in PVP, to catch people doing things that they shouldn't be capable of doing. If you see odd, out of place, or just downright illegal behavior in the game, then you can then directly compare whether the player's actual stats and build match what the player's client is telling the servers.

PRETENDING THAT A PROBLEM DOESN'T EXIST DOESN'T MAKE IT GO AWAY!

Pomaikai

ManDraKE wrote: »

bugmom wrote: »

I have been playing since shortly after launch and am very confused about this topic. I see people cheating and exploiting and using macros in PvP ALL the time and nothing ever seems to happen. ]

how do you know they are cheating or using macros? 90% of my time in the game is on PvP, and i haven't seen more than a very few players that produce me some suspicious. I find odd that you suffer the cheats so much, maybe is just a matter of learning the game mechanics to understand what those players are doing better than you

They come onto the forums and try to deflect, obfuscate, and downplay the possibility of the possibility of people cheating at all in the game. You know, like you did.