Cheating and Exploits

bugmom

I have been playing since shortly after launch and am very confused about this topic. I see people cheating and exploiting and using macros in PvP ALL the time and nothing ever seems to happen. There is clearly something wrong with the ZOS process for these issues when good helpful people who have been loyal to the game get banned for no clear reason while the exploiters and cheaters just get away with anything.

I'm a 62 year old lady with little gaming experience but a whole LOT of experience in User Experience Design and this whole issue is a mess, ZOS. Makes no sense to ban people without them knowing, to let others get away with breaking the rules, and then the rest of us who are here to play and have fun are left wondering WTF. It would be much better to clearly state the rules, clearly enforce them, and create a safe space for the rest of us who just want to play. In order to do that, communication if critical, including letting people who got banned know the reason and communication letting the rest of us know you have done SOMETHING. The lack of transparency is really hurting this game.

[Edit to remove discussing disciplinary actions on another members account]

daemonios

Anything ZOS might do in the forums is grossly inadequate and insufficient. There's a whole culture of cheating/exploiting in ESO by now. Apparently CE is still alive and well, although its users are being careful not to flaunt it in the face of other players. Keep-jumping is still alive and well, although ZOS representatives have stated numerous times that this is an exploit.

Until I see something actually change, I have no confidence or respect for ZOS.

SirAndy

Autolycus wrote: »

Also, what if I told you that the API restrictions that reduce/limit botting and exploiting are partially attributable to the cause of our performance issues?!

I'm going to assume you are talking about the AddOn LUA API?
If so i hate to disappoint you, but neither Cheat Engine nor any of the other 3rd party Apps out there just like it use any of the LUA AddOn API. None. Not one.

They all work by directly accessing the memory of the ESO client while it is running.
On the PC, any App can access any other running process's memory. It's stupidifyingly easy to do.
Which is why the phrase "Never trust the client" was coined a looooong time ago.

ZOS thought they were smarter and that they could make a "trusted client" work.
And here we are, reaping in the (rotten) fruits of that effort ...

FooWasHere

Anyone who knows me on [EU] knows I'm the most enthusiastic supporter of the game, but @ZOS_AlanG , ZoS must realize that this is breaking trust badly.

Giving a short ban or unbanning people who hacked their vMA run is badly dropping the ball. Your credibility as a business partner, as someone I purchase and generously maintain a product from, is at stake.
The message you send is visible, banned players suddenly appear back in game. Don't do this.

Blizzard and Overwatch got it right, they came down hard and publicly on it. They may well not have gotten all, or even many of the hackers, but the message was clear. Your message is not cutting it.

-Foo

edit: grammar stronk

Rohamad_Ali

Hey thanks @ZOS_AlanG for reopening the discussion and setting the tone . Much appreciated ! As @HoloYoitsu asked earlier can we get this sticky'd so it remains visible , being this is a very big issue to everyone in game ?

Understanding ZOS's position on the subject and adhering to their policy , I think it's important to many to ask the following . Several of us know that a few people previously banned got a last chance to return . Without going into details on who or why , can we get an official statement from ZOS if this is going to change in the future ? The reason for the question is I personally understand you've decided to give some people a last chance to rejoin the game and never cheat again , even if I don't personally agree . Now that ZOS has done that once with people , I think enough people know not to "accidentally" or "unintentionally" use 3rd part programs to gain advantage over other players.

In short a stricter policy from here on out would prevent repeats of this wide spread game breaking problem in the future . It would also give some people , not all , a little more hope that you are taking cheating a lot more serious from here on out . Any statement on this question from @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom would be greatly appreciated .

Thanks again for reopening the subject .

Gamerscape2007

What the hell are we supposed to talk about here? What kind of "constructive feedback." Is anyone going to give here? You're asking us to talk about a problem, without ACTUALLY TALKING ABOUT THE PROBLEM! This whole thread is pointless, because there is nothing we can talk about. Nothing on the top of my head at least. Just closed this thread, it serves no purpose whatsoever.

FortheloveofKrist

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

Muizer

@ZOS_AlanG

Hello Alan,

Can you explain what ZoS policy is regarding disciplinary action against those that have received a ban for cheating, for instance by using cheat engine? I don't really care about the particulars of disciplinary cases, but I understand it's what people look for if that's the only way to piece together what your policies are, if there are any.

For instance, if people were banned and then unbanned, is that because their original banning was pending further investigation and they got acquitted, or is it because the ban was for a limited time to begin with or are you as much in the dark about what you will do a week from now as we are?

RAGUNAnoOne

... @ZOS_AlanG are you purposely trying to fan these flames as this post is succeeding in adding kerosene to the fire

ShedsHisTail

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

And yet, here we are, talking about cheating.

DUTCH_REAPER

For the record;

ZOS did contact me about the cheat video I had. And they now have it. So I just wanted to say thank you ZOS. And I REALLY REALLY hope you show no mercy to cheating scrubs. That is all.

ShedsHisTail

Muizer wrote: »

@ZOS_AlanG

Hello Alan,

Can you explain what ZoS policy is regarding disciplinary action against those that have received a ban for cheating, for instance by using cheat engine? I don't really care about the particulars of disciplinary cases, but I understand it's what people look for if that's the only way to piece together what your policies are, if there are any.

For instance, if people were banned and then unbanned, is that because their original banning was pending further investigation and they got acquitted, or is it because the ban was for a limited time to begin with or are you as much in the dark about what you will do a week from now as we are?

Here's a nutty thought...

What if all these banned people suddenly becoming unbanned was inadvertent?
What if it was a glitch? Or some intern pushed the wrong button? Or it's a disgruntled employee?
What if they're trying to track down the source of the problem before re-issuing bans because, if it's recurrent, it'll just happen again and add more fuel to the fire?

What if maybe, just maybe, the reason ZOS is being so tight-lippd about a seemingly simple problem is because it's not as simple as it appears from the outside looking in?

Tandor

Thanks for putting up an official thread. However, we don't need to discuss what the players are doing, we know that already. We need to discuss what you're doing about it. That's the bit we don't know.

yodased

This entire debate could pretty easily be resolved by definition.

Here,

We, as a company define cheating as:

<fill it in here>

We, as a company define exploitation as:

<fill it in here>

The punishment schedule for cheating is as follows

<fill it in here>

The punishment scale for exploitative behavior is based on:

<fill in cool sliding scale here>

Give us the clear definitions and there is nothing to talk about really.

Ch4mpTW

Tandor wrote: »

Thanks for putting up an official thread. However, we don't need to discuss what the players are doing, we know that already. We need to discuss what you're doing about it. That's the bit we don't know.

Lmao. Facts. So much truth in this wee post.

FortheloveofKrist

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

And yet, here we are, talking about cheating.

Are we? Because I've yet to see any responses by ZoS that actually answers any of the posed questions regarding this topic in general. I believe a discussion is two-sided. I could care less what random forumers think the answers are. This is not talk about cheating, this is chatter. Until the talk involves substantive contributions from the company itself, nothing is being discussed. It's simply damage control.

I'll have to agree with a previous response to your posts. You are definitely white knighting at this point.

ZOS_AlanG

A large number of posts have been removed from this thread. Please stay on topic, and respect the forum rules.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

We had closed the previous thread because of the number of problems, and because we thought a break until we had new information would be helpful. We’ve received a lot of feedback that people would rather have an open discussion now, so are putting this up.

@ZOS_AlanG
Do you happen to have any new information you can share with us?
I know it would go a long way to placate some folks if they could have a little window into how this was being handled.

No. We had planned to open a new thread once we had new information, but given the demand to have a thread now the decision was made to put something up now.

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Thank you for making a thread, can it please be sticked?

I suspect this will remain active enough to stay on the front page without being stickied.

Autolycus wrote: »

And while we're at it, how about those leaderboard resets?

We are going to wipe the Veteran Maelstrom Arena Leaderboards on the PC/Mac megaservers within the next few weeks.

UrQuan wrote: »

I demand that ZOS starts threatening suspected exploiters!

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

• Demands or threats, specifically directed at the ESO team or suspected exploiters.

Oh, um, well this is awkward. Allow me to retract my demand

Careful, I can rename you "Spathi"

Haydenmango

I am curious, why am I hearing about PERMANENTLY banned players having their bans lifted?

Roechacca

Ya I got a question. When are you people gonna get a some real cyber security that actually works? Is it a money thing or a time thing that's holding you up? I've thrown a lot of money your way since preorders went up in 2013. So I don't know why we are even here having this problem but I'd like to know when it's no longer gonna be a problem. I'm working two jobs to support my crown store habit and would like a ETA for once. It's just an estimate for crying out loud. I have to give them to my customers all the time. If I get behind I gotta tell em why an apologize. I'd like to see some good customer service about this.

Ackwalan

@ZOS_AlanG

This post is complete BS. You have utterly failed to address the problem. You have gone over the rules about how post should be written, you have explained how to report a possible cheat, but you have failed to say what/how ZOS will handle it.

You failed to explain the circumstances of what happen, failed to explain how ZOS handled it, and failed to explain what ZOS plans to handle future hacks. Just like all the other posts you have closed, this is just another attempt to bury the problem. The problem being, the game has been severely hacked, ZOS failed to removed the people who hacked, and failed to fix the giant hole in their programming.

I'll say it again, this post is complete BS.

Mako1132

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Volkodav just an FYI but you are again violating the forum rules and the rules of the thread stated above by discussing specific moderation actions.

I know it's hard, but in order to keep this from also being closed we need to stay specifically within the guidelines Alan laid out.

What is there to discuss? I can't talk about anything that actually needs to be talked about. If I don't follow these guidelines I'll most likely suffer a longer ban than someone who used third party software to hack the game client. The fact that ZOS is actually giving these people second chances is straight up appalling, and proves them to not be a trusted business. I know many people who've been permanently banned just for offending people, being vulgar, or having too much gold ZOS thought they were a gold seller. These people are still banned, and CE users are not. They weren't even offered second chances, but CE users were. I don't blame Alan or Jessica as they're just the messengers, but something seriously *** up is going on here and there is a person who thought it was okay to do. In my opinion that person needs to be fired publicly and the current attitude reversed if there's ever to be trust between players and the company again.

I want to discuss what's actually happening. If that's too much to ask I'm done; I'll have no more reason to post here at all because it will be useless discussion about nothing.

ShedsHisTail

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

And yet, here we are, talking about cheating.

Are we? Because I've yet to see any responses by ZoS that actually answers any of the posed questions regarding this topic in general. I believe a discussion is two-sided. I could care less what random forumers think the answers are. This is not talk about cheating, this is chatter. Until the talk involves substantive contributions from the company itself, nothing is being discussed. It's simply damage control.

I'll have to agree with a previous response to your posts. You are definitely white knighting at this point.

I've worked in technical/customer support in an industry where the answers aren't always simple.

It's not easy, so I can empathize. Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut until you know what the problem is and what you're going to do about it, than it is to discuss it with your customers who will hear what you didn't say, and hold you to promises you didn't make. If ZOS doesn't have an answer yet, I don't blame them for keeping quiet. I've made the mistake of speaking too soon.

It's a tricky business.

You're probably right; this thread is probably just here so folks can blow off steam in a controlled environment. But I don't think there's nothing that can be discussed constructively. If nothing else, you can say what you feel needs saying and -know- that they -are- reading it because this thread is being actively monitored.

If being able to see both sides of the situation makes me a white knight, that's fine.
It's not every day I get accused of being too heroic.

ShedsHisTail

LrdRahvin wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

ginoboehm wrote: »

lol @ZOS_AlanG so why are you even opening the thread again if @ZOS_JessicaFolsom already said that cheating is perfectly fine and you will be unbanned anyway. you unbanned people after they exploited the writs after 3 days and they could keep everything now you unbann the cheaters that cheated in pvp and gained millions of fake ap and cheated in maelstrom and pushed many fair players out of the top 100 . thanks for that don't sugar coat it you don't care about the more "hardcote" crowd and as long as cheaters pay up you will let them f us over. your boss already told us we don't exist you just throw us out of the game you missmanage

Way to keep it constructive.

constructiv to which end? they already cleared up their opinion after it was discussed 40+ pages . stop that silly whiteknighting

Listen, man, I've got all these white clothes. So it's either Whiteknighting or insane racism.
There's not a whole lot of options for a guy wearing all white.

Golf?

Grass stains.
Plaid is for golf.

Volkodav

Mako1132 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

@Volkodav just an FYI but you are again violating the forum rules and the rules of the thread stated above by discussing specific moderation actions.

I know it's hard, but in order to keep this from also being closed we need to stay specifically within the guidelines Alan laid out.

What is there to discuss? I can't talk about anything that actually needs to be talked about. If I don't follow these guidelines I'll most likely suffer a longer ban than someone who used third party software to hack the game client. The fact that ZOS is actually giving these people second chances is straight up appalling, and proves them to not be a trusted business. I know many people who've been permanently banned just for offending people, being vulgar, or having too much gold ZOS thought they were a gold seller. These people are still banned, and CE users are not. They weren't even offered second chances, but CE users were. I don't blame Alan or Jessica as they're just the messengers, but something seriously *** up is going on here and there is a person who thought it was okay to do. In my opinion that person needs to be fired publicly and the current attitude reversed if there's ever to be trust between players and the company again.

I want to discuss what's actually happening. If that's too much to ask I'm done; I'll have no more reason to post here at all because it will be useless discussion about nothing.

Agree

UrQuan

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

I demand that ZOS starts threatening suspected exploiters!

ZOS_AlanG wrote: »

• Demands or threats, specifically directed at the ESO team or suspected exploiters.

Oh, um, well this is awkward. Allow me to retract my demand

Careful, I can rename you "Spathi"

I'll be good.

ShedsHisTail

Haydenmango wrote: »

I am curious, why am I hearing about PERMANENTLY banned players having their bans lifted?

How did you hear these players were permanently banned?
Was there an official list that came out?

Or is that an assumption/hearsay that's being touted as fact now?

Mako1132

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

And yet, here we are, talking about cheating.

Are we? Because I've yet to see any responses by ZoS that actually answers any of the posed questions regarding this topic in general. I believe a discussion is two-sided. I could care less what random forumers think the answers are. This is not talk about cheating, this is chatter. Until the talk involves substantive contributions from the company itself, nothing is being discussed. It's simply damage control.

I'll have to agree with a previous response to your posts. You are definitely white knighting at this point.

I've worked in technical/customer support in an industry where the answers aren't always simple.

It's not easy, so I can empathize. Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut until you know what the problem is and what you're going to do about it, than it is to discuss it with your customers who will hear what you didn't say, and hold you to promises you didn't make. If ZOS doesn't have an answer yet, I don't blame them for keeping quiet. I've made the mistake of speaking too soon.

It's a tricky business.

You're probably right; this thread is probably just here so folks can blow off steam in a controlled environment. But I don't think there's nothing that can be discussed constructively. If nothing else, you can say what you feel needs saying and -know- that they -are- reading it because this thread is being actively monitored.

If being able to see both sides of the situation makes me a white knight, that's fine.
It's not every day I get accused of being too heroic.

The problem is permanent bans aren't permanent. How do we fix this? We make permanent bans permanent. Simple. Easy. 100% fixed.

UrQuan

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut until you know what the problem is and what you're going to do about it, than it is to discuss it with your customers who will hear what you didn't say, and hold you to promises you didn't make.

Oh, but that would never happen with this community!

Hmm, pardon me, my pants seem to have caught on fire, I need to go and deal with this...

Loralai_907

We really do need more information. I understand that there is quite a bit of information that you are unable to provide. Can you provide us in writing with the company policy in regards to cheating and hacking including punishments? Are your policies in regards to said topics soft rules are strict rules? Meaning, do your policies allow for some wiggle room or are they strictly spelled out with zero room for negotiation?

Can you advise us on if there have been some discussions on possibly changing how things are handled in the future in terms of addressing potential situations that could lead to another blow up situation like this one, in advance? Perhaps get ahead of it next time?

Considering that certain situations have led to a sort of lack of trust, do you have some kind of a game plan on how to rectify that? Additionally, do you have a plan in the works for how to draw people back to certain areas of the game that might perhaps feel untrustworthy at this point? This also leads to other questions, but they do not apply quite so specifically to the topic of this thread.

I don't actually expect an answer to any of this, but I feel these are important things that need to addressed behind the scenes, if nowhere else.

ShedsHisTail

Mako1132 wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Hey, look at that, they re-opened the conversation after a cooling down period just like they said they would.

Did -not- see that coming.

They did not re-open the conversation. They reminded us of the forums guidelines as a way of saying "You can resume your discussion about cheating...as long as it involves no talk about cheating."

And yet, here we are, talking about cheating.

Are we? Because I've yet to see any responses by ZoS that actually answers any of the posed questions regarding this topic in general. I believe a discussion is two-sided. I could care less what random forumers think the answers are. This is not talk about cheating, this is chatter. Until the talk involves substantive contributions from the company itself, nothing is being discussed. It's simply damage control.

I'll have to agree with a previous response to your posts. You are definitely white knighting at this point.

I've worked in technical/customer support in an industry where the answers aren't always simple.

It's not easy, so I can empathize. Sometimes it's better to keep your mouth shut until you know what the problem is and what you're going to do about it, than it is to discuss it with your customers who will hear what you didn't say, and hold you to promises you didn't make. If ZOS doesn't have an answer yet, I don't blame them for keeping quiet. I've made the mistake of speaking too soon.

It's a tricky business.

You're probably right; this thread is probably just here so folks can blow off steam in a controlled environment. But I don't think there's nothing that can be discussed constructively. If nothing else, you can say what you feel needs saying and -know- that they -are- reading it because this thread is being actively monitored.

If being able to see both sides of the situation makes me a white knight, that's fine.
It's not every day I get accused of being too heroic.

The problem is permanent bans aren't permanent. How do we fix this? We make permanent bans permanent. Simple. Easy. 100% fixed.

I reiterate...
How did you guys find out these bans were permanent.
Was there an official list released?

Or is this assumption/hearsay being touted as fact?