U39 - PTS Endeavours: more choice is less it seems

TaSheen · July 2023

This is becoming as big a "blank wall" as Bosmer stealth and AWA....

Elsonso · July 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

They are clearly forcing them to appear because PTS is limited and it would take months to surface the new ones through the normal rotation... Looking any further into that is just trying to find a problem where one doesn't exist.

We _think_ they are forcing them to appear on PTS so we can see what the new ones are. We think this because it makes a certain amount of sense. To us. Is it real, or is it high grade Copium?

ZOS has not _said_ that they are doing this, so what makes perfect sense to us might be different than what ZOS is thinking.

I would rather they come out and say, in some detail, what will be on live. No "player testable, you'll find out when it hits Live"... just tell us what to expect.

TaSheen · July 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are clearly forcing them to appear because PTS is limited and it would take months to surface the new ones through the normal rotation... Looking any further into that is just trying to find a problem where one doesn't exist.

We _think_ they are forcing them to appear on PTS so we can see what the new ones are. We think this because it makes a certain amount of sense. To us. Is it real, or is it high grade Copium? ZOS has not _said_ that they are doing this, so what makes perfect sense to us might be different than what ZOS is thinking.

I would rather they come out and say, in some detail, what will be on live. No "player testable, you'll find out when it hits Live"... just tell us what to expect.

Yes. This is my feeling as well.

BergisMacBride · July 2023

jaws343 wrote: »

They are clearly forcing them to appear because PTS is limited and it would take months to surface the new ones through the normal rotation... Looking any further into that is just trying to find a problem where one doesn't exist.

Fair enough. That's a decent assumption and most certainly the vast majority of use are hoping that is what is happening now on PTS.

Couple of points though:

1. Assuming your assumptions are correct, then ZOS most certainly should have put it in the patch nodes to give us a heads up about "what you see is not what you'll get" on the PTS. It would've taken at most 30 seconds to compose the statement and add them to the patch notes. Since there's no qualification in the patch notes, we are left to divine their intent and all we have to go off is what's on PTS. Assuming your reasonable assumption is correct then they could pop in here to provide any clarifications. So far, crickets from ZOS....the lack of communication is on THEM, not us.

2. As has been argued many times by the vast majority of the players on this thread, even if these new endeavors are going to just replace\rotate through their current category in the endeavor choices each day\week, it is clear from the feedback on this thread that the vast majority of respondents DO NOT want these new endeavors over the ones they are replacing. They introduce unneeded and unsolicited restrictions - I'm talking about the specific dungeon\trial quests and the new trend to have to group with a guildie for some activities.

3. Even though I have access to all the game content and don't personally have a problem doing harrowstorms, geysers or maybe an NPC ToT game for my endeavor, several of the new activities including some of the specific dungeons\trials are gated behind DLC content for which several players will not have access.

I'll just end by saying IMO this entire patch has by far been the most underwhelming one from ZOS, and it's not just the lack of content that they forewarned us about. The "Quality of Life" changes have been thin\subpar and some of the changes like endeavors have everyone up in arms and\or trying to divine their true intent. They've also completely ignored several chronic pain points such as stacked healing in PvP. Combine that with absolutely NO INTERACTION ON ANY TOPIC by them on the PTS forums since the patch dropped and it's real easy to come to the conclusion that they are transitioning to a modified version of maintenance mode with the game.

That's not an optimistic outlook for a game I've played, continue to play and have loved since launch, but it's an assumption supported by the current evidence at hand.

sh4d0wh4z3 · July 2023

BergisMacBride wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

They are clearly forcing them to appear because PTS is limited and it would take months to surface the new ones through the normal rotation... Looking any further into that is just trying to find a problem where one doesn't exist.

Fair enough. That's a decent assumption and most certainly the vast majority of use are hoping that is what is happening now on PTS.

Couple of points though:

1. Assuming your assumptions are correct, then ZOS most certainly should have put it in the patch nodes to give us a heads up about "what you see is not what you'll get" on the PTS. It would've taken at most 30 seconds to compose the statement and add them to the patch notes. Since there's no qualification in the patch notes, we are left to divine their intent and all we have to go off is what's on PTS. Assuming your reasonable assumption is correct then they could pop in here to provide any clarifications. So far, crickets from ZOS....the lack of communication is on THEM, not us.

2. As has been argued many times by the vast majority of the players on this thread, even if these new endeavors are going to just replace\rotate through their current category in the endeavor choices each day\week, it is clear from the feedback on this thread that the vast majority of respondents DO NOT want these new endeavors over the ones they are replacing. They introduce unneeded and unsolicited restrictions - I'm talking about the specific dungeon\trial quests and the new trend to have to group with a guildie for some activities.

3. Even though I have access to all the game content and don't personally have a problem doing harrowstorms, geysers or maybe an NPC ToT game for my endeavor, several of the new activities including some of the specific dungeons\trials are gated behind DLC content for which several players will not have access.

I'll just end by saying IMO this entire patch has by far been the most underwhelming one from ZOS, and it's not just the lack of content that they forewarned us about. The "Quality of Life" changes have been thin\subpar and some of the changes like endeavors have everyone up in arms and\or trying to divine their true intent. They've also completely ignored several chronic pain points such as stacked healing in PvP. Combine that with absolutely NO INTERACTION ON ANY TOPIC by them on the PTS forums since the patch dropped and it's real easy to come to the conclusion that they are transitioning to a modified version of maintenance mode with the game.

That's not an optimistic outlook for a game I've played, continue to play and have loved since launch, but it's an assumption supported by the current evidence at hand.

I think this nails what everybody is feeling on the head about the endeavor changes and this patch as a whole. All it would do to quell any worries is for them to respond and say "This is us just making sure the new endeavors work, don't worry", but it's been 5 days now and it's silence. That's just their specialty.

ZOS will never be brave enough to say that the game is in maintenance mode. They'll just ignore the problem and hope for the best and give a lame excuse for their year in review and another "Next year will be better!" like they've been doing for years. I'll give them credit, though. They've japed us hard with last years letter making a lot of people believe things would be better this year.

ZOS_Kevin · July 2023

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

StabbityDoom · July 2023

This is all I've been waiting to see, if this is just for testing purposes and not how they will be going live, then although I don't love the new ones and it will curry to a different kind of player, I can put up with the change and will not be yelling anymore. I just wanted us to be heard. Thank you for reading what we were asking and answering us, @ZOS_Kevin , I for one and am happy to hear this clarification.

LadyLethalla · July 2023

As Endeavours currently stand, any do a dungeon I always skip unless there are less palatable options. Any do a trial, nope. I'm in Australia, and I don't have time, and it's rare to be even find normal trials during my prime game time anyway. Absolutely NOT going to pug a vet trial. Ever. Not keen on the kill x players either, because Cyro is mostly dead at my main playtime.
So these new endeavours... as already stated, I am not exactly thrilled about either.

TaSheen · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

Hmm. Okay. But none of the "test stuff" on the PTS currently is anything I can do. So if and/or when (most likely) a bunch of the group content is all there is, well....

What do you think will happen? I can tell you what will happen for me. I won't do any of it. And I will be VERY unhappy. Along with that.... I will NOT be spending crowns on anything. In fact.... I won't be subbing 3 accounts annually thereafter.

Yup. I'm only one person. However, I doubt I'm alone. Please see @StabbityDoom's posts.

I'm aware this is not on you Kevin.... you're only the messenger. I hope some of the messages in this thread are being read and considered by whoever thought this was a wonderful idea. Probably a faint and very forlorn hope....

NotoriousBTK · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

I'm glad the team is listening to our feedback. Just want to point out that the changes with the specific dungeon endeavor does not add a more diverse way to earn Seals. It's the same as the old way, only more restrictive, taking away the player's choice of which dungeon to complete. This feels like we are being told we are getting more when we're really not.

TaSheen · July 2023

NotoriousBTK wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

I'm glad the team is listening to our feedback. Just want to point out that the changes with the specific dungeon endeavor does not add a more diverse way to earn Seals. It's the same as the old way, only more restrictive, taking away the player's choice of which dungeon to complete. This feels like we are being told we are getting more when we're really not.

Very true.... and really, rather disheartening.

[Sorry, edit for typos]

BergisMacBride · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

Thanks for the reply, @ZOS_Kevin. Much needed and appreciated.

Looks like we’ll just have to wait until they’re live to see how much it might impact engagement. You said y’all are following the feedback but doesn’t sound like much will change with these new ones come release and they’ll be added to the curates rotation. Let me just restate that many of the new restrictive ones don’t really enhance your states goal of diversity but are really just plowing the same ground in a more restrictive manner. The world events and ToT are ok I guess but the new dungeon, trials and guild mate group ones are just awful. Lose them and most of us will be fine.🤗

TaSheen · July 2023

BergisMacBride wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

Thanks for the reply, @ZOS_Kevin. Much needed and appreciated.

Looks like we’ll just have to wait until they’re live to see how much it might impact engagement. You said y’all are following the feedback but doesn’t sound like much will change with these new ones come release and they’ll be added to the curates rotation. Let me just restate that many of the new restrictive ones don’t really enhance your states goal of diversity but are really just plowing the same ground in a more restrictive manner. The world events and ToT are ok I guess but the new dungeon, trials and guild mate group ones are just awful. Lose them and most of us will be fine.🤗

Generally, what you see in the first PTS cycle is what you get on live. THAT is the major issue here.

BergisMacBride · July 2023

TaSheen wrote: »

Generally, what you see in the first PTS cycle is what you get on live. THAT is the major issue here.

Believe me, I know it. Just have to say my peace before this goes live. When it does go live there will be another thread on the main forums from all the folks who don’t know this is coming, lol.

ZOS is gonna do what they’re gonna do. They almost never respond thoughtfully to player feedback on the PTS. It’s their right. They run the game and call the shots as they see fit. But if they make changes that start to negatively impact my playstyle/enjoyment, it’s my right to take my subscription and crown store $$$$ elsewhere. I’m just letting them know how I feel so hopefully it doesn’t come to that🤷‍♂️.

TaSheen · July 2023

BergisMacBride wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Generally, what you see in the first PTS cycle is what you get on live. THAT is the major issue here.

Believe me, I know it. Just have to say my peace before this goes live. When it does go live there will be another thread on the main forums from all the folks who don’t know this is coming, lol.

ZOS is gonna do what they’re gonna do. They almost never respond thoughtfully to player feedback on the PTS. It’s their right. They run the game and call the shots as they see fit. But if they make changes that start to negatively impact my playstyle/enjoyment, it’s my right to take my subscription and crown store $$$$ elsewhere. I’m just letting them know how I feel so hopefully it doesn’t come to that🤷‍♂️.

Exactly. It IS their game. They can do what they want, and if people (like me) get too unhappy.... we leave. And that's no money from us for them.

I don't know if they even care about that. At the mega-corp level? Probably not. *shrug* I'm still playing Oblivion and Skyrim. Reminds me - I bought the GOG version of Skyrim when it came out, then got buried by tons of snow and didn't have a lot of online available. Time to go look for compatible addons!

Elsonso · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

Thanks Kevin. This is along the lines of what I was looking for.

NotoriousBTK wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

I'm glad the team is listening to our feedback. Just want to point out that the changes with the specific dungeon endeavor does not add a more diverse way to earn Seals. It's the same as the old way, only more restrictive, taking away the player's choice of which dungeon to complete. This feels like we are being told we are getting more when we're really not.

I want to echo this sentiment. PTS has a number of Endeavors that are what we have now, but more restrictive. I am not seeing diversity, just more Endeavors.

code65536 · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

@ZOS_Kevin Most of us assumed that the mix of endeavors was for testing only, as all of the ones that have appeared are "new" ones. This was the issue that you addressed in your post, but for many of us, this was not the real problem.

The real problem, which you did not touch on at all, is that only some of the endeavors that are being added are "new". Harrowstorms or Tales of Tribute are new endeavors, and that's fine--those are new activities that the existing system did not touch.

But "complete a battleground with a guildmate" or "complete this specific dungeon" are NOT new endeavors. They are new, choice-restricting versions of existing endeavors. These are not new activities. These are all existing endeavor activities that have unduly restrictive conditions added to them. And this is the biggest concern that most players have. And your response does not address this at all.

ob1ken0bi · July 2023

Were there that many dissatisfied/unhappy players about the endeavors that sparked this change to add this?
I haven’t read much in the forum recently but pretty sure there were a lot more issues that needed to be looked into over endeavors.

Every time I see something like a specific dungeon or monster, reminds me of what happened when Oakensoul came out and watching like 50 (plus pets/companions) fight the same monster where only top 10 or whatever got any chance at it

I just don’t see how the endeavor system is a problem at all

Unless of course ZOS wants us to get less endeavors. I mean, that could be the goal.

TaSheen · July 2023

ob1ken0bi wrote: »

Were there that many dissatisfied/unhappy players about the endeavors that sparked this change to add this?
I haven’t read much in the forum recently but pretty sure there were a lot more issues that needed to be looked into over endeavors.

Every time I see something like a specific dungeon or monster, reminds me of what happened when Oakensoul came out and watching like 50 (plus pets/companions) fight the same monster where only top 10 or whatever got any chance at it

I just don’t see how the endeavor system is a problem at all

Unless of course ZOS wants us to get less endeavors. I mean, that could be the goal.

I do think that is the goal. I think the crown buys and crate buys have bottomed out. Many people have saved up SOE for long enough to get 1 or 2 radiants. Without gambling on crates....

For ZOS, THAT is the problem.

Ankael07 · July 2023

They added the endeavor system so they can say ''you can get crate items ingame'' and not get sued for EU gambling laws. Dont be suprised when they make it harder to earn endeavors.

TaSheen · July 2023

Ankael07 wrote: »

They added the endeavor system so they can say ''you can get crate items ingame'' and not get sued for EU gambling laws. Dont be suprised when they make it harder to earn endeavors.

I never said I was surprised. I'm not.

Meredy · July 2023

The problem lies with the new Endeavors themselves. They offer nothing besides restrictions for people who want to complete them. They shouldn’t be specific. That is the most pressing feedback… not like.. the endeavor rotation most people figured out to be for testing purposes anyway.

Dagoth_Rac · July 2023

If the specific dungeon is always one of that day's pledges, it might not be a bad design. While having everyone descend on a single public instance, and make a crowded mess out of a delve in Glenumbra, is poor design, making everyone queue for the same dungeon could help the group finder queues pop faster. And you don't have to worry about overcrowding in a 4-player dungeon instance.

Most of these new endeavors seem to be tedious and time-consuming and would pull you out of your regular gameplay for an extended period. But the specific dungeon one might not be bad if done thoughtfully.

Braffin · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

I would suggest the following changes to improve playability:

- Synchronize the dailies sending us to a specific dungeon with daily pledges and I assure you every dungeoneer will be happy, as most of us run pledges regularily.
- Change the endeavours tied to specific trials to weekly ones to give interested players enough time to prepare for them and form a fitting group.

The remaining endeavours are fine in my opinion, just pay attention that there are enough completable tasks for solo players and people without access to various DLC content.

I also have two positive comments:
- ToT is a nice addition. Players which like the card game were underrepresented until now.
- Your idea to revitalize group queues for battlegrounds by using the endeavour system is interesting. I'm excited if this will work out.

AzuraFan · July 2023

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Most of these new endeavors seem to be tedious and time-consuming and would pull you out of your regular gameplay for an extended period. But the specific dungeon one might not be bad if done thoughtfully.

Not everyone does the daily pledges or wants to group. With endeavors, I can usually do three because there are base dungeons I can solo. That's not true of the DLC dungeons (and frankly a trial as a daily is ridiculous, even for those who like doing them). So now endeavors, which are part of my ESO daily routine and that I enjoy doing, will be more off-limits to me because the dungeon one will require a specific dungeon, and often it will be one I can't solo.

Also, more content was off-limits to me, a mainly solo player, in Necrom than in previous chapters. Of course, the price tag for the chapter was the same.

I'm starting to get the feeling that ZOS views solo players as expendable. Weird at this stage of the game's life cycle, but it is what it is.

Fortunately I enjoy playing other games (and I always have another game on the go in addition to ESO). I feel for those who have made ESO their primary gaming home and now find themselves increasingly shut out. All I can say is, vote with your wallets! It's the only thing that will get ZOS's attention.

tomofhyrule · July 2023

I will say that it's good that we're not losing the live crop of Endeavors, as I do actually find them fun to do. And I do appreciate having more options.

However, I will echo the above that "Run March of Sacrifices with a Guildmate" is inherently more restrictive than "Run 1 Dungeon," even as much as I do love March in the first place.

I think that world events like Dolmens and Geysers are excellent Endeavors, as we do have Dragons as a current one, but I don't remember seeing other other world events. I also think that Tales of Tribute is an excellent choice for an Endeavor as well. There are also a few activities in game that I have never seen an Endeavor for (and we've had similar Endeavors in the past), and I think would make excellent additions to the list:

Catch X fish
Fillet X fish
Buy X gold worth of items from Guild Traders
Buy X gold worth of items from merchants
Buy X AP/Tel Var worth of items from merchants
Repair X pieces of armor
Complete X daily crafting writs
Visit X Striking Locales (possilby in zone Y)
Loot 1 Heavy Sack
Complete 1 Dark Anchor/Abyssal Geyser/Harrowstorm/Oblivion Portal/Volcanic Vent/Bastion Nymic
Win X matches of Tribute (counting NPC matches)
Play 1 match-made round of Tribute
Transmute or Reconstruct 1 piece of gear
Improve X pieces of gear to Y quality
Capture 1 resource in Cyrodiil
Complete 1 scouting quest in Cyrodiil
Activate 1 Ayleid Well
Heal X HP worth of damage to other players
Take X damage to your health
Do 1 Undaunted Pledge
Do 1 guild quest for Cardea Gallus/Alvur Baren/Bolgrul
Do 1 preparation quest for Jee-Lar or Zahari
Complete a job for the Thieves Guild Tip Board or the Marked for Death book
Do 1 quest for the Ashlanders of Ald'ruhn/the Ordinators of Vivec/the denizens of the Clockwork City/the Divine Prosecution of Summerset/Cyrodilic Collections/the Northern Elsweyr Defence Force/the Shields of Senchal/the Swords of Solitude/the Stonehands of Markarth/the Leyawiin Chamber of Legates/the Saarathu Tong/the Knights of High Isle/the Druids of Galen/the Ordinators of Necrom
Ride X meters when mounted
Kill X enemies with a Companion
Equip a Companion with a piece of gear
Complete 1 quest with a Companion
Travel to a wayshrine X times
Travel to another zone using a Navigator X times
Swim with the slaughterfish
Collect X antiquity leads (keep them any quality, as players can always purchase leads for map furnishings or get the blue leads from zones when digging the green zone lead)

I would hope that the team would prefer more Endeavors like the above and fewer that go too hard into specifics for group content as we have seen on PTS thus far.

AzuraFan · July 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I think that world events like Dolmens and Geysers are excellent Endeavors, as we do have Dragons as a current one, but I don't remember seeing other other world events. I also think that Tales of Tribute is an excellent choice for an Endeavor as well. There are also a few activities in game that I have never seen an Endeavor for (and we've had similar Endeavors in the past), and I think would make excellent additions to the list:

[snipped excellent suggestion list]

I would hope that the team would prefer more Endeavors like the above and fewer that go too hard into specifics for group content as we have seen on PTS thus far.

Great suggestions! There's so many ideas they could have used, rather than making existing endeavors more restrictive and difficult to do. Which makes me wonder whether the motivation really is to reduce the number of seals players earn.

starkerealm · July 2023

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

Then this does not achieve that goal.

If the goal is to push players towards completing specific dungeons, corresponding to pledges, it would probably be a better idea to simply attach an endeavor to completion of a pledge, as those already have a rotating dungeon format, and would allow for more flexibility. That can be dumped into the bucket with the normal dungeon clears.

It would also avoid the nightmare scenario of pushing unprepared players into DLC dungeons in pursuit of a specific dungeon.

Specific trials would be fine as a weekly (as a supplement to the complete X trials endeavor) however, trials, especially DLC trials, are too time consuming to be worth the nominal 10-15 seals.

Now, a suggestion:

The specific dungeon and trial endeavors might be able to work in a new endeavor category, (for sake of illustration, let's call these "Elite Endeavors") which occupies a sixth optional slot, and counts as an alternative for the three normal daily completions.

For example: "Complete Scalecaller Peak," would be considered completing all remaining daily endeavors,
and award seals based on the daily limit (so, if you had no other dailies completed, it would award triple seals, if you'd already completed one other daily, it would only award double seals, and if you'd completed two dailies already, it would award normally.)

If those are available as a, "I can do this one thing, instead of my normal dailies," and doesn't conflict with the normal pool, that could work.

Additionally, if the goal is to encourage more guild interaction, that should probably offer another, similar, "elite endeavor," alternative. Where you can complete quests, dungeons, battlegrounds, whatever, with a guild member. If these were added in as additional persistent alternatives, that would be significant positive. Do stuff as a guild, and everyone gets rewards.

Within this context, a fourth weekly option that was always a specific trial, would not be a bad idea.

This would offer an incentive to take these significantly more challenging endeavors in preference over the ones we currently have, without harming the current system.

Simply dumping these into the pool is a "QoL change," but it is not a "QoL Improvement."

EDIT: To clarify: With your response, this change is not as catastrophic as it initially appeared on the PTS. However, simply adding, "do this specific DLC dungeon," into a system that already includes, "do a dungeon of your choice," improves neither flexibility nor variety. Yeah, players who optimize their endeavors are likely to slam through FG1 if given the choice, however, most players will hit a daily random dungeon queue, meaning they'll have a randomly selected dungeon (potentially including DLCs.)

As I think I've said elsewhere, I'm not wild about the specific incursion types, I'd prefer to simply have, "clear X incursion(s)," simply because I'm not wild about doing those during the "off-season." And I don't see the Harrowstorm population picking up significantly for 10 seals, even for a single day, though I'd be happy to be wrong about that. But, given dragons were already on the list, this isn't out of place.

So, yeah, your comments help, but if that's the goal, I think it needs a bit more work, rather than just adding more restrictive and time consuming options to the endeavor pool without giving those options an added incentive. I'd run March of Sacrifices for 75 seals. I might run it for 45, though I'd grumble about it. I would not run it with PUGs for 15 seals. It's 100% not worth the time and suffering for that reward. Same goes for Hall of Fabrication, Maw of Lorkhaj, and really most of the trials. I'd be happy to PUG them if they were a weekly. Hell, I'd be willing to teach people how to clear the twins and run for 200 seals, but for 10? Screw that.

ApoAlaia · July 2023

starkerealm wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

Then this does not achieve that goal.

If the goal is to push players towards completing specific dungeons, corresponding to pledges, it would probably be a better idea to simply attach an endeavor to completion of a pledge, as those already have a rotating dungeon format, and would allow for more flexibility. That can be dumped into the bucket with the normal dungeon clears.

It would also avoid the nightmare scenario of pushing unprepared players into DLC dungeons in pursuit of a specific dungeon.

Specific trials would be fine as a weekly (as a supplement to the complete X trials endeavor) however, trials, especially DLC trials, are too time consuming to be worth the nominal 10-15 seals.

Now, a suggestion:

The specific dungeon and trial endeavors might be able to work in a new endeavor category, (for sake of illustration, let's call these "Elite Endeavors") which occupies a sixth optional slot, and counts as an alternative for the three normal daily completions.

For example: "Complete Scalecaller Peak," would be considered completing all remaining daily endeavors,
and award seals based on the daily limit (so, if you had no other dailies completed, it would award triple seals, if you'd already completed one other daily, it would only award double seals, and if you'd completed two dailies already, it would award normally.)

If those are available as a, "I can do this one thing, instead of my normal dailies," and doesn't conflict with the normal pool, that could work.

Additionally, if the goal is to encourage more guild interaction, that should probably offer another, similar, "elite endeavor," alternative. Where you can complete quests, dungeons, battlegrounds, whatever, with a guild member. If these were added in as additional persistent alternatives, that would be significant positive. Do stuff as a guild, and everyone gets rewards.

Within this context, a fourth weekly option that was always a specific trial, would not be a bad idea.

This would offer an incentive to take these significantly more challenging endeavors in preference over the ones we currently have, without harming the current system.

Simply dumping these into the pool is a "QoL change," but it is not a "QoL Improvement."

EDIT: To clarify: With your response, this change is not as catastrophic as it initially appeared on the PTS. However, simply adding, "do this specific DLC dungeon," into a system that already includes, "do a dungeon of your choice," improves neither flexibility nor variety. Yeah, players who optimize their endeavors are likely to slam through FG1 if given the choice, however, most players will hit a daily random dungeon queue, meaning they'll have a randomly selected dungeon (potentially including DLCs.)

As I think I've said elsewhere, I'm not wild about the specific incursion types, I'd prefer to simply have, "clear X incursion(s)," simply because I'm not wild about doing those during the "off-season." And I don't see the Harrowstorm population picking up significantly for 10 seals, even for a single day, though I'd be happy to be wrong about that. But, given dragons were already on the list, this isn't out of place.

So, yeah, your comments help, but if that's the goal, I think it needs a bit more work, rather than just adding more restrictive and time consuming options to the endeavor pool without giving those options an added incentive. I'd run March of Sacrifices for 75 seals. I might run it for 45, though I'd grumble about it. I would not run it with PUGs for 15 seals. It's 100% not worth the time and suffering for that reward. Same goes for Hall of Fabrication, Maw of Lorkhaj, and really most of the trials. I'd be happy to PUG them if they were a weekly. Hell, I'd be willing to teach people how to clear the twins and run for 200 seals, but for 10? Screw that.

All this pretty much.

From what has been shown so far a wider variety of named incursions and the ToT daily endeavour are the only things we don't have on live (disclaimer: can't be sure about the ToT one because my mind kindly does its best to purge any ToT related information rather than consolidate it into actual memories, if such thing already exists I do apologise).

If the goal truly was to offer more diverse ways to earn Seals you would include activities not currently represented and replace specific tasks like 'Kill 1 Dragon' with the generic 'Complete an incursion' counterpart while leaving the generic ones (complete 1 dungeon/trial/whathaveyou) untouched thus actually adding to the current 'diversity of choice'.

By including more restrictive versions of what we already have however with no indication that they are going to have greater seal yields to account for the restrictions while wording it as a positive 'increase in diversity' the statement becomes somewhat insulting and marred with a lingering odour of doublespeak.

16BitForestCat · July 2023

There was a request for Endeavor suggestions in this thread, and as an early Master Angler, I really love that so many people jumped right to fishing.

Even if you hate fishing, a "Catch 4 fish" daily or "Catch 20 fish" weekly is ridiculously quick and easy to knock out. But please don't make it catching fish in a specific zone or of a specific quality.

And since ZOS is desperate for community engagement in this game (while remaining conspicuously absent themselves), might I suggest Endeavors that would drive positive community engagement, not just killing stuff in a group or killing each other? An example: remember those achievements for jumping from high places? When Markarth came out, I went to the spot where you get that achievement, expecting to see a few other solo jumpers. I figured I'd make my jump and be on my way. Instead, I found a major jumping party going on there. Players were taking off their clothes and vaulting over the waterfall. Other players were /cheering them on, or mourning and spamming "F" in /say chat if they whiffed the jump and went splat on the ground (okay, sometimes they were also /cheering that). People were dancing "naked" atop the waterfall, playing music, running around on fancy mounts, throwing mudballs and flower blossoms, punching nearby werewolves to death with bare fists while naked, and just generally having a good time. I ended up staying there about an hour joining in on the party. THAT is the type of community engagement I love to see in this game.

ZOS could easily set up more fun, less chore-like Endeavors that would get players in the same space having a blast, and maybe some of them getting new achievements in the process.

I'd also love something else that would drive social activity via Endeavor, like "Visit 4 player homes." Can be your own (for people who are strictly solo and choose to have no friends/guilds), visiting other people's, or even just previewing homes (c'mon, ZOS, you know you'd make some sales this way, and it's all about the money, right?) Many players would love opening up their homes to the wider community for such an Endeavor; I've seen people in chat asking if anyone wants to group to take a look at their house. Sometimes you want someone other than guildies and your friends list to drop by.

EDIT: Haha! My RL partner is literally visiting a random player's home right now. The player saw him run by in town and just whispered that he had a home that matches my partner's character perfectly, so they grouped up and went to the house together. (It's a really nicely decorated house, BTW. Player's not wrong about it matching my guy's outfit.)

These new test Endeavors make it clear that ZOS is pretty darn twitchy over the fact that players still aren't wanting to do social/multiplayer content in their MMO. That's hardly surprising. ZOS has been desperate to get people into PVP and group content ever since before the game launched, when many Elder Scrolls gamers were already saying, "We weren't asking for an Elder Scrolls MMO, just an Elder Scrolls where we can quest with friends! We weren't asking for a PVP mode, just maybe some dueling!"

ZOS misjudged who their audience would be, and what that audience would want, from day one. People were complaining about this before the game even had its first beta. ZOS thought they'd get a perfect harmony of Elder Scrolls fans getting into groups/PVP, and group/PVP fans getting into Elder Scrolls questing, and by and large, that's...not what happened. Players mostly stuck to whatever kind of content they were already doing in other games.

So, now we get a flood of overly restrictive multiplayer-oriented Endeavors trying to force people into content they've made it clear they don't want to do, and if they did, they'd already have been doing it this whole time. And even if it's just oriented that way because the Undaunted Event is being tested on PTS right now, the endeavors are still too restrictive. Outside of events, if even one like "Complete Sunspire Trial with a guildmate" goes live on top of four easy solo ones, that's still one overly restrictive Endeavor too many. It's good for people doing multiplayer to have multiplayer content; it's not good to try to squeeze the whole playerbase into content that is significantly more difficult and time-consuming than "Craft 5 Blacksmithing items." There need to be enough endeavors on the daily/weekly list so that everyone can have it their way. If you've got time to run three group dungeons for three daily Endeavors, you should have that every day. If you only have time to solo- or- group-run Fungal Grotto I and then want to do something quick like harvesting nodes and deconning gear for your other two Endeavors, you should have that every day. If you're not up to multiplayer content at all and just need to bang out three quick solo Endeavors before bed because you've got an early double shift in the morning, you should have that every day. I can see why ZOS wouldn't want, like, 15 choices of daily Endeavors every day, but if they're still touting the "Play your way" line, they gotta step up and support that a bit better. And knock it off with the reliance on DLC content unless you're offering many non-DLC, easy solo alternatives at the same time.

(As an aside: I REALLY dislike the Endeavors that leave things up to chance or the whims of other players. It takes me longer to randomly afflict 15 enemies with poison than it does to, for example, harvest 10 Alchemy nodes and kill 10 skeletons combined.)