U39 - PTS Endeavours: more choice is less it seems

SeaGtGruff · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zachary_Shadow wrote: »

These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

Because many of the players who are interested in doing that particular endeavor will be looking for other players who also want to complete Fang Lair for that endeavor, versus everyone wanting to complete a different dungeon than everyone else.

I'm pretty sure most players, when the dungeon endeavor pops up, aren't hellbent on doing one specific dungeon to complete it; they just want to do any dungeon for the seals. ie. We queue for a random dungeon.

But not everyone queues for random dungeons; a lot of players don't even like to queue for random dungeons at all, because they don't like PUGs and prefer pre-made groups.

Braffin · July 2023

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zachary_Shadow wrote: »

These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

Because many of the players who are interested in doing that particular endeavor will be looking for other players who also want to complete Fang Lair for that endeavor, versus everyone wanting to complete a different dungeon than everyone else.

I'm pretty sure most players, when the dungeon endeavor pops up, aren't hellbent on doing one specific dungeon to complete it; they just want to do any dungeon for the seals. ie. We queue for a random dungeon.

But not everyone queues for random dungeons; a lot of players don't even like to queue for random dungeons at all, because they don't like PUGs and prefer pre-made groups.

You can also queue for random dungeons as a premade group tho.

AzuraFan · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The issue isn't DLC vs non DLC btw, it's specific vs non specific.

I never said it was. I was answering your question about why one would force grouping and the other wouldn't.

I don't think most players solo dungeons at all. Most players are questers who are playing this as a solo TES game. Doing a dungeon for them is a group activity regardless of what the dungeon is.

I'm not sure about that. I think a lot of people come to ESO because it's Elder Scrolls, but quickly figure out that this isn't a solo TES game. I think many people can solo FG1, at least.

And I refuse to believe ZOS's logic by adding specific dungeons is ''people will group if their specific dungeons, not if they're any-dungeon, so let's change the endeavor to specific dungeons.''

I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping. I think ZOS wants the endeavors to be more difficult to do, and it knows that by requiring people to group, that will be the case. The result is that fewer players will earn the maximum number of seals each day.

I was hoping that ZOS wasn't introducing these endeavors to make seals difficult to get, but Kevin's response, claiming that these new specific endeavors offer more diversity, has made me believe that they're trying to increase crown crate sales.

Anyway, I think this change will backfire big-time because players who mainly log in to do endeavors will simply stop logging in.

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The issue isn't DLC vs non DLC btw, it's specific vs non specific.

I never said it was. I was answering your question about why one would force grouping and the other wouldn't.

I don't think most players solo dungeons at all. Most players are questers who are playing this as a solo TES game. Doing a dungeon for them is a group activity regardless of what the dungeon is.

I'm not sure about that. I think a lot of people come to ESO because it's Elder Scrolls, but quickly figure out that this isn't a solo TES game. I think many people can solo FG1, at least.

And I refuse to believe ZOS's logic by adding specific dungeons is ''people will group if their specific dungeons, not if they're any-dungeon, so let's change the endeavor to specific dungeons.''

I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping. I think ZOS wants the endeavors to be more difficult to do, and it knows that by requiring people to group, that will be the case. The result is that fewer players will earn the maximum number of seals each day.

I was hoping that ZOS wasn't introducing these endeavors to make seals difficult to get, but Kevin's response, claiming that these new specific endeavors offer more diversity, has made me believe that they're trying to increase crown crate sales.

Anyway, I think this change will backfire big-time because players who mainly log in to do endeavors will simply stop logging in.

''I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping.''

The original comment I responded to said that specific dungeon endeavors vs any dungeon endeavors could be to promote grouping for events. I AGREE that the intent is to make endeavors harder to do. I DON'T AGREE--which is what the comment I responded to guessed--that the endeavors are intended to promote events like Undaunted. I asked them how does (SPECIFIC) promote Undaunted more than (RANDOM). Unless they're changing how the Undaunted event works.

this is the original thing I responded to
These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

starkerealm · July 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, a suggestion:

The specific dungeon and trial endeavors might be able to work in a new endeavor category, (for sake of illustration, let's call these "Elite Endeavors") which occupies a sixth optional slot, and counts as an alternative for the three normal daily completions.

This would have been a better approach to take, but I have to toss in the "pessimism card" on it. That is probably too much effort for the team between now and Live. I think they can rewrite, add, or remove existing Endeavors, to a limit, but adding UI elements and additional logic is going to take them months of discussion, design, implementation, and testing that they do not have.

The entire stated point behind skipping out on the Q3 and Q4 DLCs was to give the team more time to do exactly this. So, while I think you're probably correct, it's exactly the kind of effort that ZOS claimed they'd be putting into the game.

bellablithely · July 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I will say that it's good that we're not losing the live crop of Endeavors, as I do actually find them fun to do. And I do appreciate having more options.

However, I will echo the above that "Run March of Sacrifices with a Guildmate" is inherently more restrictive than "Run 1 Dungeon," even as much as I do love March in the first place.

I think that world events like Dolmens and Geysers are excellent Endeavors, as we do have Dragons as a current one, but I don't remember seeing other other world events. I also think that Tales of Tribute is an excellent choice for an Endeavor as well. There are also a few activities in game that I have never seen an Endeavor for (and we've had similar Endeavors in the past), and I think would make excellent additions to the list:
Catch X fish

Fillet X fish

Buy X gold worth of items from Guild Traders

Buy X gold worth of items from merchants

Buy X AP/Tel Var worth of items from merchants

Repair X pieces of armor

Complete X daily crafting writs

Visit X Striking Locales (possilby in zone Y)

Loot 1 Heavy Sack

Complete 1 Dark Anchor/Abyssal Geyser/Harrowstorm/Oblivion Portal/Volcanic Vent/Bastion Nymic

Win X matches of Tribute (counting NPC matches)

Play 1 match-made round of Tribute

Transmute or Reconstruct 1 piece of gear

Improve X pieces of gear to Y quality

Capture 1 resource in Cyrodiil

Complete 1 scouting quest in Cyrodiil

Activate 1 Ayleid Well

Heal X HP worth of damage to other players

Take X damage to your health

Do 1 Undaunted Pledge

Do 1 guild quest for Cardea Gallus/Alvur Baren/Bolgrul

Do 1 preparation quest for Jee-Lar or Zahari

Complete a job for the Thieves Guild Tip Board or the Marked for Death book

Do 1 quest for the Ashlanders of Ald'ruhn/the Ordinators of Vivec/the denizens of the Clockwork City/the Divine Prosecution of Summerset/Cyrodilic Collections/the Northern Elsweyr Defence Force/the Shields of Senchal/the Swords of Solitude/the Stonehands of Markarth/the Leyawiin Chamber of Legates/the Saarathu Tong/the Knights of High Isle/the Druids of Galen/the Ordinators of Necrom

Ride X meters when mounted

Kill X enemies with a Companion

Equip a Companion with a piece of gear

Complete 1 quest with a Companion

Travel to a wayshrine X times

Travel to another zone using a Navigator X times

Swim with the slaughterfish

Collect X antiquity leads (keep them any quality, as players can always purchase leads for map furnishings or get the blue leads from zones when digging the green zone lead)

I would hope that the team would prefer more Endeavors like the above and fewer that go too hard into specifics for group content as we have seen on PTS thus far.

Yes! THESE are the endeavors I WANT to do!

SilverBride · July 2023

The only thing as detrimental to player satisfaction than this was Account Wide Achievements. Both of these greatly decrease my ability to play as I want.

AzuraFan · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The original comment I responded to said that specific dungeon endeavors vs any dungeon endeavors could be to promote grouping for events. I AGREE that the intent is to make endeavors harder to do. I DON'T AGREE--which is what the comment I responded to guessed--that the endeavors are intended to promote events like Undaunted. I asked them how does (SPECIFIC) promote Undaunted more than (RANDOM). Unless they're changing how the Undaunted event works.

You misunderstood. I was agreeing with what you quoted. Just restating it to offer my take.

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

The original comment I responded to said that specific dungeon endeavors vs any dungeon endeavors could be to promote grouping for events. I AGREE that the intent is to make endeavors harder to do. I DON'T AGREE--which is what the comment I responded to guessed--that the endeavors are intended to promote events like Undaunted. I asked them how does (SPECIFIC) promote Undaunted more than (RANDOM). Unless they're changing how the Undaunted event works.

You misunderstood. I was agreeing with what you quoted. Just restating it to offer my take.

If you're agreeing with the original comment I quoted, I don't really know what you're saying now actually. You said a few posts up you think the new endeavors' intent is to make them harder to do.

''I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping. I think ZOS wants the endeavors to be more difficult to do, and it knows that by requiring people to group, that will be the case.''

AzuraFan · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

If you're agreeing with the original comment I quoted, I don't really know what you're saying now actually. You said a few posts up you think the new endeavors' intent is to make them harder to do.

''I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping. I think ZOS wants the endeavors to be more difficult to do, and it knows that by requiring people to group, that will be the case.''

Yes, both things are true. I believe that ZOS's intent isn't to force people to group, and also that they're trying to make the endeavors more difficult to do. The appearance of wanting people to group is just a means to the true end - to DISCOURAGE some players from doing those endeavors.

To be even clearer, ZOS knows that people who don't want to group or don't have a lot of time to find a group just won't do the endeavors - and not wanting to group or not having the time is what makes them more difficult to do. So while it might appear at first glance that they're trying to encourage grouping, they're actually not. They're hoping people will skip the endeavors and buy more crown crates. I think that approach will backfire on them, but I guess we'll see.

KlauthWarthog · July 2023

I am not inclined to assume this is a ploy to push crates - they are using FOMO polymorphs bundled with large packs of crates for that.
I am inclined to believe this is an attempt to induce a set of behaviors. I am also inclined to believe it will backfire horribly. The ease of going through a daily routine is one of the strong points in this game, and those changes work against that.

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

If you're agreeing with the original comment I quoted, I don't really know what you're saying now actually. You said a few posts up you think the new endeavors' intent is to make them harder to do.

''I don't think ZOS's goal is to force grouping. I think ZOS wants the endeavors to be more difficult to do, and it knows that by requiring people to group, that will be the case.''

Yes, both things are true. I believe that ZOS's intent isn't to force people to group, and also that they're trying to make the endeavors more difficult to do. The appearance of wanting people to group is just a means to the true end - to DISCOURAGE some players from doing those endeavors.

To be even clearer, ZOS knows that people who don't want to group or don't have a lot of time to find a group just won't do the endeavors - and not wanting to group or not having the time is what makes them more difficult to do. So while it might appear at first glance that they're trying to encourage grouping, they're actually not. They're hoping people will skip the endeavors and buy more crown crates. I think that approach will backfire on them, but I guess we'll see.

What do you mean both things are true?

I'm talking about Undaunted event vs making the endeavors harder, not force people to group vs making endeavors more difficult to do.

We are talking about different things.

AzuraFan · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

What do you mean both things are true?

I'm talking about Undaunted event vs making the endeavors harder, not force people to group vs making endeavors more difficult to do.

We are talking about different things.

Maybe we are talking about different things, but I was responding to you saying you didn't know what I'm saying. I tried to explain. If you still don't understand, I'm not sure what else I can say. I guess we'll leave it at that.

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

I am not inclined to assume this is a ploy to push crates - they are using FOMO polymorphs bundled with large packs of crates for that.
I am inclined to believe this is an attempt to induce a set of behaviors. I am also inclined to believe it will backfire horribly. The ease of going through a daily routine is one of the strong points in this game, and those changes work against that.

I'm still open-minded about it in the sense that we're all speculating as to why they'd add endeavors that are, to use someone else's apt term, "hot garbage." I think many of us are in agreement that regardless of the reason for doing it, it will likely backfire and could push people away from the game. I totally agree that daily routines are what keep some people logging in, and endeavors are a big part of that for many, myself included.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out when these go live!

emilyhyoyeon · July 2023

AzuraFan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

What do you mean both things are true?

I'm talking about Undaunted event vs making the endeavors harder, not force people to group vs making endeavors more difficult to do.

We are talking about different things.

Maybe we are talking about different things, but I was responding to you saying you didn't know what I'm saying. I tried to explain. If you still don't understand, I'm not sure what else I can say. I guess we'll leave it at that.

The original person I responded to said they guessed the new endeavors were to promote events like Undaunted, not to discourage players from completing them.

I disagreed, asking them how the new endeavors (specific dungeon) vs. the old endeavors (any dungeon) promote events like Undaunted.

They have not responded.

A few posts ago you said ''I was answering your question about why one would force grouping and the other wouldn't.'' Except my question for the original comment was ''How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?''

You said you think the new endeavors are to discourage completion, and then the next post said that you agreed with the post I quoted, which says they think the endeavors are not to discourage completion, but rather to promote events like Undaunted. Then you started talking about forcing grouping vs discouraging completion.

That's why I was confused. And still am, if you agree with the original comment I was quoting and also disagree with it.

AzuraFan · July 2023

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Except my question for the original comment was ''How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?''

I guess I didn't have the full context and we've been talking at cross purposes.

Jinxxy85 · July 2023

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was watching the tavern stream on Bethesda_DE and they have doubled down on what Kevin commented yesterday so it looks like this is pretty much a done deal.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

For anyone who wants to watch this section of the discussion, it's at 1hr 58mins in. It's touched on for a couple of minutes or so and reiterates what Kevin posted. It's said they're new endeavours so we have more activities. Again, I'm reiterating that new is not what these proposed changes are.

Lapin_Logic · July 2023

I do endeavours every day, If this goes live I won't.

I can spend 20 minutes doing tidy up quests in my Adult working day, I can't spend 5 hours cramming Mtn Dew and Doritos while getting sacked and disowned by everyone.

Endeavours should be short and fun, not a grind and a enforcement to play a specific DLC content.

blktauna · July 2023

I'm sorry, one endeavour for doing a trial.... Talk about no ROI. Why on earth would I bother with that? Again, so cheap with the rewards.

DarcyMardin · July 2023

Just knowing these changes are coming (PTS changes almost always happen) has already resulted in my not signing in as often. I don’t know about other folks, but I like endeavors because they are quick, easy, and give me a little dopamine rush. I don’t care much about the seals, which I rarely even spend.

For me, endeavors have been one of the few successes of the past couple of years…successes because I like them, I have fun doing them, and, until now, they’ve actually inspired me to sign in to my 4 accounts every day.

I won’t do long, tedious endeavors or any that require grouping. But if ZOS thinks fewer seals means I’ll spend money in the crown store, wrong, wrong, wrong. Nothing is ever going to make me buy crown crates — never have, never will.

Elsonso · July 2023

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was watching the tavern stream on Bethesda_DE and they have doubled down on what Kevin commented yesterday so it looks like this is pretty much a done deal.

Not unexpected.

SilverBride wrote: »

The only thing as detrimental to player satisfaction than this was Account Wide Achievements. Both of these greatly decrease my ability to play as I want.

Perfected Maelstrom Weapons was detrimental to player satisfaction, as well. I am not going to rank the various debacles that the community has suffered through over the years, though.

tomofhyrule · July 2023

I wonder if the team will be collecting data about how many people do the 'new, improved' endeavors versus the older ones when this goes live.

Please at least then keep adding more endeavors to the pool every update. I've got that list of Endeavor ideas a few pages back that would be great things for them to add into this or the next update (really, Fishing is part of the game too, and there are a few like going to map markers or transmuting, or resourses the new players should also be introduced to).

I really hope they do go back and take some of those as well as they continue to add more to this system.

krysnyte · July 2023

I'm glad the team is listening to our feedback. Just want to point out that the changes with the specific dungeon endeavor does not add a more diverse way to earn Seals. It's the same as the old way, only more restrictive, taking away the player's choice of which dungeon to complete. This feels like we are being told we are getting more when we're really not.

This! exactly! What's wrong with just saying "a dungeon" or "a Trial" and leave it at that?

ApoAlaia · July 2023

Elsonso wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

I was watching the tavern stream on Bethesda_DE and they have doubled down on what Kevin commented yesterday so it looks like this is pretty much a done deal.

Not unexpected.

SilverBride wrote: »

The only thing as detrimental to player satisfaction than this was Account Wide Achievements. Both of these greatly decrease my ability to play as I want.

Perfected Maelstrom Weapons was detrimental to player satisfaction, as well. I am not going to rank the various debacles that the community has suffered through over the years, though.

Too soon

AuroranGoldenEagle · July 2023

I feel like it's clear that these changes are meant to discourage seal accumulation.

In a way, it reminds me of 2019 when Fallout 76 reduced the amount of Atoms earned through challenges, likely because most items in the Atom Store were not purchased with real money, but only through in-game rewards. Same energy.

Feowyn13 · July 2023

With 13 pages and already annoying endeavors to complete (todays sucky endeavors sparked a conversation in my guild which led me here since I had not known about the u39 endeavor changes before), I don't have the time to read them all so I dont know if this has been addressed yet.

I play eso for the stories, role play, the freedom to do anything and go anywhere if you have the dlc's etc. I play eso because I can skip what I don't like or what I suck at, I play eso because I can even play 10 minutes of it on busy days and still "achieve" something or just have fun.
There are only a couple things I never skip which are the crafting dailies and the endeavors. In the 2ish years I've been playing I probably missed only 2 days of daily endeavors because I was too sick to walk over to the pc.

I highly enjoy the endeavor system, even though its slow you'll eventually be able to pick out something nice for your commitment, for logging in and playing every day. I was bummed when I noticed the endeavor rewards were being nerfed (at the start you'd get around 20 to 30 seals per daily endeavor completed, and around 280 to 320 for the weekly endeavor iirc), it would take much longer now to pick out that reward but still, the endeavors were mostly easy enough to complete and fitted in a "I-don't-have-much-time-today routine" and most of the time any playstyle could complete them without too much hassle.

If the screenshot in the OP is a harbinger of what is to come, it'll be a harbinger of doom for me and my Seals of Endeavor collection. If I wanted to complete all 3 daily endeavors I would spend more time than I normally would just playing the game in a day and I would hate every second of it!
I don't just dislike dungeons, pvp and grouped content, I suck at it too meaning the people that will be grouped with me will have a bad day as well. I will in no way be able to complete even 1 daily endeavor on the "I-don't-have-much-time-today days".

This will probably mean I'll just stop doing the SoE all together. This, btw, won't cause me to buy more crowns for crates etc, so if that's the goals it'll most likely fail as I wont be the only one.

From what I understand you wanted to give more choice with the endeavors, if that's the case then I don't understand why you just dont add other options without erasing the existing ones? Give 3 PVP options, 3 Group/dungeon options and keep the 3 easy options like collect 10 mats and change your outfit or kill 2 delve bosses etc. Enough choice for every playstyle! Even if you only have 10 minutes of logg in time on a busy day.

The options given in the screenshot in the OP and even more than half of todays endeavors are an absolute task to complete! Who just does a trial in a couple of minutes? Hell, I'm CP 1700 and never even done a trial. New players will not be able to join in on the, used to be, endeavor fun! Even older players wont.

The nice thing about the endeavors was that they were accessible to pretty much everyone. I guess thats over with.

Tandor · July 2023

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I wonder if the team will be collecting data about how many people do the 'new, improved' endeavors versus the older ones when this goes live.

Please at least then keep adding more endeavors to the pool every update. I've got that list of Endeavor ideas a few pages back that would be great things for them to add into this or the next update (really, Fishing is part of the game too, and there are a few like going to map markers or transmuting, or resourses the new players should also be introduced to).

I really hope they do go back and take some of those as well as they continue to add more to this system.

Agreed, but the problem is that your list would increase the Endeavours done by adding genuinely new ones, while the aim of the actual Endeavour changes would seem to be to reduce the Endeavours done, by taking the existing ones and making them less doable.

RaddlemanNumber7 · July 2023

Sunday's

Nothing there I'd go out of my way to do.

Lugaldu · July 2023

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Sunday's

Nothing there I'd go out of my way to do.

These new Endeavors are really not very creative... almost only certain dungeons, while there were so many brilliant suggestions for new tasks here in this thread.

karthrag_inak · July 2023

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Sunday's

Nothing there I'd go out of my way to do.

wow. what event is going on now that tickets are available? Perhaps they have an event going on in PTSD? ... er PTS?

The_Boggart · July 2023

The comments here whilst held by the majority will be ignored as we're the comments re U35