U39 - PTS Endeavours: more choice is less it seems

Luke_Flamesword

Sorry, but when you make clearly more restrictive tasks and you call it "more diversity" than I feel treated like fool who don't see what's really going on. Personally I think that's shows no respect to your customers.

It's obvious why this change appears and very clear that main intention to do this is not to give players more fun from game. You have now 12 pages of proofs that there will be no fun from this for players, so if you will put in on live anyway, than whole thing will be more than clear and you can call it however you want, by we know it what's going on.

Tandor

ZOS, what it really boils down to is whether you think you're giving us more choice, or less choice, and there's a pretty clear consensus here that it's less choice. That's clear from examples like turning "complete a dungeon" into "complete this dungeon", and even worse "complete this dungeon with a guildmate". As for trials, expecting anyone to be able to organise and complete a trial as a daily task is absurd, so it restricts that option to those few who have already got a trial scheduled for that day.

If the intention is to broaden players' activities, it won't work. Nobody is going to buy a DLC because it's needed for an Endeavour, just as nobody will suddenly start grouping, apply to do their first trial, or join a guild because it's needed for an Endeavour.

It seems more likely that the intention with these changes is to make Endeavours more restrictive so fewer are done, fewer SoEs are earned, and - wishful thinking in my view - more Crown Crates are bought instead. I think the actual outcome will be that more players will be turned off Endeavours and Crown Crates altogether.

As is sadly so often the case these days, this is a new initiative that is poorly explained and badly implemented, and critically received by almost everyone that has responded. There was a wonderful opportunity here genuinely to add some more diverse Endeavours to the present list, but if these more restricted options are how it is implemented on Live then it will be a failed opportunity. I find it personally both sad and disappointing that "poorly explained and badly implemented" seem to be the only way that ZOS is able to bring these sorts of changes to the game nowadays. It could do so much better in my view.

tim77

ok, got it. "QoL changes" doesnt mean its "QoL improvements".

adding my voice, this is a bad change.

this whole QoL+Bugfix upadate gets a really bad taste. Bugfixes just for rare quest bugs, no major pain bugs at all, and a lot QoL worsenings. Oh, and crownstore item stacking....

Lugaldu

AzuraFan wrote: »

Some people only have an hour or two to play every day. When are people supposed to work on story quests, explore, do their dungeons/trials of choice, or PvP if all their gaming time is spent on endeavors?

There won't be any new story quests or regions to explore for a long time anyway, since we can't expect a new chapter and thus new quests until next June.... So it fits perfectly if they want to keep people busy...

Lady_Galadhiel

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

Adding more options each day would help to include something for everyone.
Instead of the current 5, give us 7 or 8 dailies to choose from, and instead of 3 weekly ones, give us 5.
Even if completing Moon Hunter Keep isn't on par with picking 6 wood, but giving more options leaves people to decide how much time they want to invest into it.
Most people are going for the quick options, but I also know people who enjoy doing stuff with their guildmates, so when time allows it, they might wanna do something together to get the seals.
But I belive we need more daily/weekly choices.

Luke_Flamesword

To show even more what is going here, let's show some example. Imagine that every day I bring to my grandma basket full of fruits - apples, bananas, oranges, etc. She can freely pick any fruit and eat whatever she want any day. But one day I came with idea and say to grandma "I want add for you more diverse ways to eat fruits, so now I will bring you everyday not full basket of different fruits, but just one fruit selected by me, you're welcome"

Grandma may be old, but even she will know that's blunt manipulation.

I really don't like when corporations use fact that absolutely everything you can show as something different:

Punching someone in face may be "bringing new experiences for your body"
Killing someone may be "taking a burdens of life from you"
Claustrophobic apartment is "cozy place to live"

and now changing very limited and grindy Endavours into even more limited and grindy is "adding diverse ways to earn it".

You have no shame...

emilyhyoyeon

Zachary_Shadow wrote: »

These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

RaddlemanNumber7

Saturday's

Jinxxy85

Firstly I'll state that I'm completely against the changes and my reasons are the same as everyone elses so I'll skip rehashing those same points.

Now we've had an answer (thank you Kevin!) I'll chime in. Almost all of the new endeavours are not new. Dressing up what was originally a free choice as something new, just because it's been restricted where you can complete said activity, is not giving more options or choices, it's limiting the ones we already had. Forcing where an activity needs to be completed in a specific area is completely unnecessary. What's next, killing your 10 skeletons in The Corpse Garden? Completing 2 quests in Blackwood? 5 Blade of Woe in Mournhold?

We have enough reasons to visit specific content between pledges, events and achievements. The endeavour system doesn't need to be this specific. Please leave it as it currently is on live. If new ideas are really needed to freshen the choices up then add actual new options.

Khenarthi

If this goes live, endeavours will join my list of "stuff I cannot be bothered with". Because I already cannot be bothered with a lot of stuff in game, it will lead to less motivation to log in and play... bearing in mind Starfield will be launched soon, and there are many fine non-Bethesda games too, feels like the devs are playing dangerous odds here.

It seems meant to channel players to activites out of their comfort zone (maybe the devs are seeing a decrease in casuals running dungeons or trials?) or merely push them into just buying from the crown store.

BergisMacBride

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Saturday's

<yawn> Move along folks, nothing new or diverse(tm) to see here. (Vent one is fine - looks like we'll most likely have Nymics tomorrow.) As for the others, just a huge nope for me and many others.

Absolutely no original thinking or inspiration went into creating these. You want some good ideas for a diverse(tm) slate of new endeavors? Just take a look a the list @tomofhyrule made on the previous page.

Edit: the grouping one is also not too bad in and of itself. It’s just kinda redundant and a double dip for that day. It is clear what their intent is with the new grouping endeavors, though.

BetweenMidgets

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Saturday's

LoL, imagine giving a TRIAL and a DUNGEON equal footing regarding rewards.

NoxiousBlight

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, we're following up on some of your feedback regarding the current Endeavors being tested on the PTS. For us, the function of the PTS is not only for the community to see and test content early, but it’s a way for us to test ideas in a number of ways.

We want to stress that the way Endeavors are currently arranged on the PTS is for testing purposes. However, when they are on the live server, they will be curated along with existing Endeavors to ensure there is flexibility in the kinds of Endeavors offered to players of various skill levels. As such, you should not see all five daily Endeavors tied to only completing dungeons, for example.

The same can be said for Endeavors that are tied to specific Chapters or content. The goal is not to make all the Endeavors for the day or week tied to owning a Chapter. The Endeavor changes on the PTS are designed to add more diverse ways to earn Seals on the live server, while also maintaining that everyone has a number of options to do them each day/week while playing the game.

We hope this helps provide some clarity on the thought process regarding the Endeavors currently on the PTS. We are listening and relaying your feedback to our teams, so please continue to share your ideas and input. Thanks all.

Thanks for the response @ZOS_Kevin

But what you and the team really need to take away from this thread is that these new endeavors are hot garbage. And not just because you are throwing 5 of them a day at us on the PTS.

They are not fun. They are restrictive. Going from "complete one dungeon" to "complete banished cells I" is not a NEW endeavor - it is a less fun and more tedious version of an endeavor we already have.

If you think Maw of Lorkhaj is worthy of a DAILY endeavor then it better award 200 seals for the time commitment that one has to put into for that nightmare of a trial.

The team seems really out of touch with what players want with these additions.

Know what we actually wanted? Catch ten fish. Perform an emote in another player's home. Stuff like that. Not complete a specific and difficult dungeon or trial.

Keep them generic and fun. After all - isn't this game supposed to be fun? Stop trying to turn it into mobile game simulator. Endeavors is a fantastic system and you are gutting it with these changes.

starkerealm

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Saturday's

LoL, imagine giving a TRIAL and a DUNGEON equal footing regarding rewards.

I mean, AS is exactly like COA1.

StabbityDoom

BergisMacBride wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Generally, what you see in the first PTS cycle is what you get on live. THAT is the major issue here.

Believe me, I know it. Just have to say my peace before this goes live. When it does go live there will be another thread on the main forums from all the folks who don’t know this is coming, lol.

ZOS is gonna do what they’re gonna do. They almost never respond thoughtfully to player feedback on the PTS. It’s their right. They run the game and call the shots as they see fit. But if they make changes that start to negatively impact my playstyle/enjoyment, it’s my right to take my subscription and crown store $$$$ elsewhere. I’m just letting them know how I feel so hopefully it doesn’t come to that🤷‍♂️.

And that was why I freaked the freak out. Maybe a little heads up ahead of time would have saved us all heart attacks, but I get it. They clarified, I'm good. I'm not in love with them, but I won't complain.

Shara_Wynn

I guess time will tell when the new endeavor system moves onto the live servers. Lets hope the named trial/dungeon or do this or that with a guildmate will only ever constitute one of the five dailies and one of the three weekly.

Most folk aren't really aware of the changes to the endeavor system that's currently being tested on PTS. But once it's moved to the live servers they obviously will and I guess that's when the real test will be.

StabbityDoom

BetweenMidgets wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Saturday's

LoL, imagine giving a TRIAL and a DUNGEON equal footing regarding rewards.

For what it's worth, I don't think they will be the same on live for amounts of seals.
For housing, all items are 1 crown on pts, from a full house to a flower.
I think those are placeholders.

Verbarian

I group with several family members once a week, but log in every day to do endeavors. It gives me a little bit of structure and challenge and keeps me in the game.

If endeavors change they way they look like they will I'd skip them, and my guess is that I'd soon stop logging in daily, which would likely lead to me quitting the game completely since once a week doesn't seem worth the expense of ESO+. I do housing so the game wouldn't be worth playing without ESO+.

heinousmoz

Except all daily endeavours have been given equal weighting for number of seals given on the server since their launch.

All I can do is acho all the comments previously. Changing the 1 Dungeon endeavour to do a specific dungeon is NOT adding more endeavours. It is changing the exisiting endeavours to make them less inclusive and trying to say anything otherwise in the stream and the "official" post here is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.

TaSheen

@starkerealm @ApoAlaia @16BitForestCat - regarding your posts on page 11 (not quoting as very long) I fully concur with all points. You've covered everything quite well, so thank you all.

@tomofhyrule - OUTSTANDING list! That's the sort of additions we need!

Elsonso

starkerealm wrote: »

Now, a suggestion:

The specific dungeon and trial endeavors might be able to work in a new endeavor category, (for sake of illustration, let's call these "Elite Endeavors") which occupies a sixth optional slot, and counts as an alternative for the three normal daily completions.

This would have been a better approach to take, but I have to toss in the "pessimism card" on it. That is probably too much effort for the team between now and Live. I think they can rewrite, add, or remove existing Endeavors, to a limit, but adding UI elements and additional logic is going to take them months of discussion, design, implementation, and testing that they do not have.

Brightuatha

Not pleased the requirements of group play or tge time needed just for endevors. What happened to play our way? I an solo player which has not been a problem until Microsoft changed the emphasis to pvp and group play making solo players more and more left out. I get there should be group content, yet there used to be room for solo players too. Not happy. If these changes go through in endevors, I may likely leave the game.

DarcyMardin

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Saturday's

Looks to me as if these new endeavors are trying to force people to group up, since probably 90 percent of ESO players can’t solo most DLC dungeons and certainly can’t solo a trial. Ditto, obviously, for “do X with a guildmate” or today’s “complete an endeavor while grouped.” Volcanic vents, harrowstorms, etc. are also difficult to solo.

So it doesn’t look like they are really offering a greater variety of endeavors as much as they are deliberately making endeavors harder, forced-groupy, and more time-consuming. Probably because too many people are slowly saving up 16 thousand seals and spending them on fancy mounts that have a ridiculously rare chance of dropping from crown crates.

Edit: typo

SeaGtGruff

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zachary_Shadow wrote: »

These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

Because many of the players who are interested in doing that particular endeavor will be looking for other players who also want to complete Fang Lair for that endeavor, versus everyone wanting to complete a different dungeon than everyone else.

emilyhyoyeon

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Zachary_Shadow wrote: »

These changes, although we are only viewing them from the PTS point of view, are something that I've thought on more from my initial post. Although I hope the decision is reverted on the endeavors for DLCs/requirement for guildmates as endeavors should be something accessible by everyone, I do see how ZOS could be adding these very specific endeavors to promote more people grouping for these events, dungeons, etc.

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

Because many of the players who are interested in doing that particular endeavor will be looking for other players who also want to complete Fang Lair for that endeavor, versus everyone wanting to complete a different dungeon than everyone else.

I'm pretty sure most players, when the dungeon endeavor pops up, aren't hellbent on doing one specific dungeon to complete it; they just want to do any dungeon for the seals. ie. We queue for a random dungeon.

AzuraFan

Lugaldu wrote: »

AzuraFan wrote: »

Some people only have an hour or two to play every day. When are people supposed to work on story quests, explore, do their dungeons/trials of choice, or PvP if all their gaming time is spent on endeavors?

There won't be any new story quests or regions to explore for a long time anyway, since we can't expect a new chapter and thus new quests until next June.... So it fits perfectly if they want to keep people busy...

Not everyone has completed all the story quests in every zone (or with every alt, if they're so inclined). And that was just one example of an activity people want to do that doesn't involve spending two hours on daily endeavors.

ApoAlaia

I was watching the tavern stream on Bethesda_DE and they have doubled down on what Kevin commented yesterday so it looks like this is pretty much a done deal.

[snip]
[edited for bashing]

AzuraFan

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

I can solo FG1 and other base game dungeons. I can't solo Fang Lair.

Therefore, the "complete any 1 dungeon" does not force me to group. "Complete Fang Lair" does (along with other DLC dungeons or dungeons with a mechanic that make it impossible or difficult to solo).

haelgaan

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Thanks for the response @ZOS_Kevin

But what you and the team really need to take away from this thread is that these new endeavors are hot garbage.

this, 1000%

adding more choices that were not previously offered = good (eg Kill a training dummy, dance emote for five minutes, etc)

taking previous choices (run one dungeon) and restricting them to reduce your player's freedom (run one specific dungeon) = bad

emilyhyoyeon

AzuraFan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

How does ''complete Fang Lair'' push players more into grouping for events than ''complete any 1 dungeon'' does?

I can solo FG1 and other base game dungeons. I can't solo Fang Lair.

Therefore, the "complete any 1 dungeon" does not force me to group. "Complete Fang Lair" does (along with other DLC dungeons or dungeons with a mechanic that make it impossible or difficult to solo).

I can solo FG1 and I can solo Fang Lair, so they are the same to me. The issue isn't DLC vs non DLC btw, it's specific vs non specific. I originally said Fang Lair because it was in my mind from one of the example lists on PTS.

I don't think most players solo dungeons at all. Most players are questers who are playing this as a solo TES game. Doing a dungeon for them is a group activity regardless of what the dungeon is.


And I refuse to believe ZOS's logic by adding specific dungeons is ''people will group if their specific dungeons, not if they're any-dungeon, so let's change the endeavor to specific dungeons.''