U39 - PTS Endeavours: more choice is less it seems

redspecter23

Serious question, but what is the logic behind this change? It seems to be seen as a largely negative change from the player base. Since this should have been anticipated (or at least can be seen now), what was the intended positive aspect associated with this change?

Snowfaeriewings

This is not a great direction the game has been taking lately.. These new endeavor formats, their new ways of forcing people to group in this last chapter is not very "play your way"
The new chapter locked a style mat behind a dlc dungeon that people that bought the chapter may have no access to. That i felt was just wrong.
Now endeavors are going the same way. locking them behind dlc dungeons, forcing people to do dungeons etc.
Having an option to do 7 dungeons for a weekly was fine.. now suddenly SPECIFIC dungeons that are dlc locked have become dailies? Not everyone wants to do dungeon content. Yes its an MMO but that doesnt mean people that don't or cant enjoy dungeons should be penalized.
Some people that have disabilities, bad internet, limited play time these are just not a feasible option.
I really do hope that Zos reads these comments on this forum and changes these things.
Group content is NOT the only Zos end game. A lot of your crown purchases come from the housing community that a lot of those players prefer not do a lot of group and dungeon content. And as a result have been less content with this latest chapter and the directions things are going.

starkerealm

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

One thing I'd mention about the "do a BG with a guildmate" thing is... the queues.

During the last MYM, I was grouped with one of my friends and we sat in the group BG queue for 30 minutes before we decided to disband. I don't know what the MMR magic is doing, but some players who have high MMR just can't ever seem to get into another BG again. It wasn't until we broke group and queued solo that all of us eventually got in (and in some matches, we were even on the same team).

If group BGs is going to be a thing, there should also be some relief to make queueing for BGs as a group not interminably painful. Perhaps if BG MMR could be reset every so often so BG players could eventually get back into matches?

Group BGs are a separate queue than solo BGs.

Group BGs don't pop because next to nobody wants to PvP against a coordinated group and as a result most of us don't queue for Group BGs.

I'd assume the endeavor is designed specifically to try to make that queue have more population so that it would pop faster.

The problem with this logic is, you'll just get more sweaty 4 stacks farming random ticket seekers, further building the image of PvP as a hostile, toxic environment. So, while they might succeed in the short term, it would only damage the PvP community in the long term.

starkerealm

RMW wrote: »

Yeah no. This alone will be not fun doing with pugs lol

Why make these more complicated than you have to? Do you want us to stop doing endeavors?

What do you mean? Who doesn't want to spend 45 minutes watching randos somehow get smeared by The Twins on normal, before ducking out and quitting the game?

Actually, that reminds me, the Twins fight is one of the rare cases in the game where one enterprising troll can intentionally screw a run over, while still disguising it as incompetence.

Kovuash

Three major complaints here:
1. The screenshotted endeavors so far have been 3/5 DLC-locked (MoS, Harrowstorm, MoL in the first example) compared to at most 2/5 currently on live (Antiquities and Dragons). If you MUST include specific dungeons, keep it to the base game dungeons/trials only so that everyone can actually participate.
2. The specific dungeons reminds me of an old issue where ESO+ havers had their daily random dungeons almost never hit the easier base game dungeons instead hit long, tedious DLC dungeons like Lair of Maarselok. Endeavors like this will see a marked increase in this issue, with all the frustrations of said dungeon mechanics by those unfamiliar with it, or a veteran having to endure the 7th Lair of Maarselok marathon hike in a row.
3. Trials really do not belong in dally endeavors at all — I have an awkward timezone for playing with NA folks (playing from Malaysia), which means I haven't been able to form dungeon groups for months, let alone trials. If I DO manage to get a trial, I'd much rather do a Cloudrest in 15 minutes than a 2-hour run of Maw of Lorkhaj because we messed up mechanics. I no longer have entire 2-hour blocks available in my day and other people certainly do not either.

Sincerely hope these are just placeholders to test all the new endeavors at once and not an indication of actual days when it goes live. If not, ZOS may soon experience not only a drop in engagement with Endeavors as this seems to be intended for, but also an unintended drop in engagement with the game as a whole.

starkerealm

NoxiousBlight wrote: »

Man. I know I sound dramatic. But these endeavor changes feel like the worst changes they have made in a while.

They had to celebrate the anniversary of U35 somehow. Why not kick things off by evicerating one of the few systems that didn't get kneecaped by that patch last year?

It strikes me that someone forgot how much damage they did to the community last year. And immediately attacked one of their retention systems, because it might be a bit too generous.

Like I said elsewhere in this thread, it'd be fine if these endeavors were part of a separate category that paid out actual crowns. As a kind of, "you know what? Fine, put in the time and we'll give you some money." But, as a supplement to the existing system? No.

And if the endeavors are tracking pledges, then that should be the prereq. "Do 1 Undaunted Guild Quest." Track the three pledges, and Bolgrul, and that way there's an option for every level of player. But pointing players towards March of Sacrifices? Yeah, I see no way that ends in blood and tears.

MidniteOwl1913

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Next sample of new dailies. More on the same theme. Particularly don't like "... with a guildmate".

Wow those are even worse than the first set! Scale Caller peak is a long difficult dungeon, finding enough people to kill dragons during off time is hard, and trials/battlegounds are not for a lot of people. I might solo Banished Cells, but only if I'm in the mood. Otherwise I wouldn't do *any* of these! And right now I lreally ook forward to the endevors. It a small set of things to focus on as I play. And yes right now it's one of the things that keeps me playing.

But lately, it's almost like ZOS finds stuff people like and then deliberatly mauls them. Why do they do these things!?!

WhoRU

Us there any chance

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Next sample of new dailies. More on the same theme. Particularly don't like "... with a guildmate".

Wow those are even worse than the first set! Scale Caller peak is a long difficult dungeon, finding enough people to kill dragons during off time is hard, and trials/battlegounds are not for a lot of people. I might solo Banished Cells, but only if I'm in the mood. Otherwise I wouldn't do *any* of these! And right now I lreally ook forward to the endevors. It a small set of things to focus on as I play. And yes right now it's one of the things that keeps me playing.

But lately, it's almost like ZOS finds stuff people like and then deliberatly mauls them. Why do they do these things!?!

Think these changes come under their heading of "quality of life improvements" ... lol

BahometZ

What are they thinking? This is awful on several levels.

Luke_Flamesword

I belive that in PTS they put only Endavours to test them, but it change nothing - it still will be awful to get ANY of these, because in some days we will get very tedious sets of them.

For example Scalecaller Peak - couple months ago I tried to PUG it because of some leads or other reason. As DD I waited 30 minutes in queue only to get team with fake tank, who wasn't even a good dd and he left after first boss failure. We queued for new tank and killed first 3 bosses, which was tedious, because healer was low level and other dd not very skilled. In fourth boss I gave up, because beeing tank and main dd at the same time was too much. This is boss with a lot of health and draining your sustain, so it's hard in team like this. At the end even this poor healer was nice enough to ask why we do so little damage (without tank, drained sustain and without healer buffs) so after a HOUR I didn't even finish dungeon and was very angry.

When they will put live Endevaours like this it will be even worse. We always have problems with tanks, so when hundreds od dd will queue, waiting will be even longer and many team will get fake tanks who thinks that's a Fungal Grotto. It will be HUGE DISASTER.

Calastir

This screams "Stop doing endeavors but buy Crown Crates!" to me.

Tommy_The_Gun

I just wanted to point out something important that ZOS may have missed.

Many people have their "daily routine". You know - things they do every day in ESO. Some do only crafting, some do daily quests in zone, some do dungeons etc.

Endeavours is something that they do in addition to their daily routine. It is something extra they do. And for some people it may even be the reason to boot the game.

So, I can imagine the following problem:
If ZOS will do endeavours too hard to do, there might come a time for some people to miss 1 or 2 daily or weekly tasks. At 1st they will be pissed about it, but... but... it will be the 1st step in their "Fomo Curation". That is right. Many people do Endeavours, because they literally "Fear of missing out" getting 15 endeavours.

But once they miss it once... then twice... then 10th time... it will be easier for them not to care and at the same time not to play.

Think about it ZOS. It is the very possible outcome that may happen if you make endeavours harder & more restrictive. And don't expect people to buy more crates instead. People who collect endevours are for the most part people who want to avoid crates because of cassino RNG.

Calastir wrote: »

This screams "Stop doing endeavors but buy Crown Crates!" to me.

Yeah, but I think ZOS does not realise that it won't increase Crow Crate sales, but will cause less people to play the game / play shorter per day.

Wolfkeks

Today's PTS endeavors:

Luke_Flamesword

All of it brings me association with things like this: there is restaurant where foods quality decrease so less and less people come in and revenue goes down. Restaurants boss looks at sales report and thinks "If I have lower income, I must raise prices to compensate losses".

Now we have nerfed crown crates (with more trash items in higher tiers) and nerfed Endavours, when both of this systems where very restricitve and very low rewarding at beginning (you must put much more money/effort than it's realy worth it for that kind of rewards). Nerfing this systems won't boost sales in longer horizon, it will be only makes players more angry and frustrated.

Last year was so bad at many levels that I decided to never again buy any crowns (I did it couple times at sales). Now I'm start to think about abandon this game, which is hard and sad for me, because I really love many parts of ESO, but it's hard to ignore fact that whole rewards system (which is very important part of every game, I play for my dopamine rewards, not to feel used) is built around crown store. I don't mind ADDITIONAL things to buy but it's so obvious that this game at every corner tries to give us not too much, almost starve us, only to boost sales. Endavours in current state are ridicoulous - even in Fallout 76 where there is much grind, you can have a whole bunch of rewards every month and in ESO I can put effort for MONTHS just for one mount... And now they decided that we are getting too much, so they need to make this even harder for us? Seriously?

Only hope is that players will show with their wallets what they think about it.

RaddlemanNumber7

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

For anyone wondering, Oblivion Portals are the ones in Blackwood and The Deadlands.

Two of them!

I think that leaves no doubt about the objective of this change - to discourage players from doing Endeavours at all.

Elsonso

redspecter23 wrote: »

Serious question, but what is the logic behind this change? It seems to be seen as a largely negative change from the player base. Since this should have been anticipated (or at least can be seen now), what was the intended positive aspect associated with this change?

I think there were multiple "goals" for this. I think that one of them was "reward players for grouping", which was also a theme in the Bastion Nymic dungeon in Necrom. As for what we are seeing on PTS, it sort of feels like they ran out of ideas for new Endeavors so they just made one for each DLC dungeon.

FayJolyn

What I find really dishonest is that during the Preview stream they made it sound like an actual improvement. The wording was vague enough and unspecific so none of us suspected a thing until we saw the actual changes on the PTS.
When I think about new possible endeavor activities I think in terms of having to catch a rare fish or collect 20 butterflies for example. Not complete a trial with a guildmate or a difficult DLC dungeon. I already don't buy crates, I only farm via gems or endeavor points. This change will only build resentment, and people will publicly start to boycott the game if they keep pulling changes like this. ESO likes to present itself like a quality MMO, yet it slowly starts to behave more and more like a freetoplay&p2w MMO. It's painful to see my favorite game make choices like this.
If this ~improvement~ gets live I don't see a future of myself playing this game any longer. As much as I enjoy Tamriel I cannot support this.

Dragonredux

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

Probably coping but hoping this is just showing the new ones as a small consolation. If not seems the format is

Base Game Dungeon
DLC Dungeon
Insurgent Event
Trial
Do X activity with guildmate / Tribute

Non ESO+ players can get dealt a bad hand of endeavors more easily.

NoxiousBlight

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

I would be laughing uncontrollably if this change wasn't so terrible. They have really lost the plot with these endeavors.

Shara_Wynn

I cannot fathom what ZOS were thinking when they thought this up. I doubt many people want to come home after a hard day at work to sit around waiting for 11 other people so they can do a trial for a daily endeavor. For me personally that would be the sum total of my entire evenings play time just to get 10-15 seals of endeavor. In addition to this many more of the endeavors seem to be locked behind DLC content which not everyone has access to.

I would wager that the majority of the player base do not do trials on a daily basis. So I am not sure why ZOS would make it a daily endeavor. There is nothing daily about trials.

It is also pretty clear that having two named dungeons and two trials as part of the same day's daily endeavors does not constitute more choice.

If this endeavor change is implemented by ZOS it will mean that many of their player base will simply be locked out of the endeavor system and will have to resort to gambling, yes lets call it what it is, gambling, via crown store purchases in order to be able to get the same level of content/reward that they have previously been accustomed to.

Not a good look for ZOS. Not a good look at all. I have just renewed my subscription for another year and now I really wish I hadn't.

I think ZOS needs to go back to the drawing board and do more research into what their player base want, as it certainly isn't this and if it is a case of falling revenue (inflation is a thing after all) then they need to find another way. I would rather pay a dollar more per month on my sub than have to put up with changes like this.

The ONLY way this might work would be if the number of seals given for each daily endeavor was VASTLY increased from say 10-15 to like 30-45 per endeavor. Even then so many people will not be able to do the content required.

People play this game to have fun and escape the mundanity of their daily lives, not to be stressed out over being forced into doing a trial/battleground or dungeon with their poor guildmates. Or to be sat in a queue waiting to play said content. I pity the guildmate that gets roped into doing such content with me. I wouldn't put someone through that! These daily endeavors are just too difficult. I just won't be able to do them. I also don't gamble so I won't be buying any of the crown crates either. So that means I loose out. Why did ZOS think that I and others like me would find this "exciting"?

I have no doubt that there will be a minority of hard core players who will welcome these changes, but they are the minority.

Of course at this point it is all conjecture regarding what will actually make it to the live servers. So I implore you ZOS to please reconsider these changes and listen to what your player base, your clients, are telling you.

BergisMacBride

Elsonso wrote: »

I think there were multiple "goals" for this. I think that one of them was "reward players for grouping", which was also a theme in the Bastion Nymic dungeon in Necrom. As for what we are seeing on PTS, it sort of feels like they ran out of ideas for new Endeavors so they just made one for each DLC dungeon.

Nymics will be a ghost town sooner than most think. I've done my 30, got all the achievements and won't go back there unless they introduce some amazing drops.

It's clear by now on day 4-5 of these that not much thought or effort went into creating these new endeavors. Specific Trial, specific dungeon(s), group with guildmate while doing x activity, one of the previously unused world events - I'd lay good money Volcanic Vent or Nymics is one of the endeavors for tomorrow.

This is just sad. The community in this thread alone has already come up with more original and engaging activities for daily endeavors than this unoriginal, restrictive and exclusionary pile of [snip] they're trotting out here.

First time I've really begun to question the future of this game, tbh. First they pull back on content releases, then in its place they give us a "major" quality of life patch which is a big nothingburger and now they're screwing up a system that was never broken or needed any major changes.

[edited for profanity bypass]

Taggund

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

Wow. I would not do a single one of those.

starkerealm

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

I'm just going to leave this here.

The two oblivion portals isn't even remotely hard, it just has a lot of downtime, because the game checks completion on killing the final boss, so you can just stand in the final room for five minutes and get it twice... except, of course, that's 5 minutes of twiddling your thumbs, playing with your phone, or derping around on Reddit, waiting for something to happen. So, yeah, that sounds fun.

Moonhunter Keep is a dungeon where you actually need the DPS to be semi-sentient, and you need a real tank. I've randomed in there, and had to bail because the DPS were simply too green to clear the content. In fact, it's the only time I ever used the, "random into a dungeon, then port to another one," glitch, back when that was a thing. It was with that team. I'd randomed in after their original tank rage quit. I gave it 30 minutes, and then after talking through it, we ported to a base game dungeon and got everyone their Undaunted event tickets.

If you clicked on the link above, you've already read the horror story of HoF. No joke, even with an experienced team, nHoF can easily chew up an hour. And that's from the crowd who are going, "yeah, I can solo these dungeons in 15 minutes."

If the, "run this specific trial," was a 4th weekly option, you know what? That would be fine. Put some incentives into rotating old trials, make it a little easier to get people into them for farming. But as a daily? Excuse me while I go vomit.

Oh, and I can't wait to see that we've actually got specific arenas on the daily rotation. Who wants to see, "run Vatishran 7 times" as a weekly?

Ugh.

Lady_Galadhiel

Taggund wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Today's PTS endeavors:

Wow. I would not do a single one of those.

Ditto.
I think ZOS fails to understand that a good portion of the playerbase, at least, that portion what spends to most money in game on crowns and subs, are WORKING PEOPLE, who simply do not have time to complete 3 of these activities each day. If ZOS wants to make the activity selection bigger, they need to give more options each day.
Instead of 5 to choose from give us 7,where they can include something for everyone.

AlwaysDancing

AD does not like this change, for reasons that many people have described above so will not repeat.

AD does almost all of his current endeavors every day and has done so since the beginning. AD has lots of seals in reserve and has obtained some shiny things with seals. AD does lots of dungeons and lots of trials, and lots of dragons, and lots of other stuff. But AD will not do specific dungeons, specific trials, harrowstorms, etc just because ZoS wants him to.

AD has purchased several big stacks of crowns and has obtained some shiny things with crowns. AD was okay with the balance of getting shiny things through in game "work" and real-life "work". If this goes through into live, AD will not be using his real-life money to obtain shiny things anymore, because where is the balance. And without shiny things...

This makes every single one of us undervalued as players and overvalued as revenue sources.

CoolBlast3

People have said what's needed to be said already, so I won't do any breakdowns.
But yeah, this is a terrible change created solely to make an already grindy and unrewarding system (seriously, they don't give enough seals per crate season) even grindier probably more unrewarding. Can't wait till we eventually get "Do Sanity's Edge vHM for 10 endeavour seals!"

Revert this.

LalMirchi

Let us hope that this very bad change to endeavors never goes live.

Lady_Galadhiel

CoolBlast3 wrote: »

People have said what's needed to be said already, so I won't do any breakdowns.
But yeah, this is a terrible change created solely to make an already grindy and unrewarding system (seriously, they don't give enough seals per crate season) even grindier probably more unrewarding. Can't wait till we eventually get "Do Sanity's Edge vHM for 10 endeavour seals!"

Revert this.

Or ''Complete vSS Speedrun with no Deaths'' for ... 25 seals o.O

LalMirchi wrote: »

Let us hope that this very bad change to endeavors never goes live.

I really wish I could hope, but with the past experiences, I lost most hope.

starkerealm

BergisMacBride wrote: »

First time I've really begun to question the future of this game, tbh. First they pull back on content releases, then in its place they give us a "major" quality of life patch which is a big nothingburger and now they're screwing up a system that was never broken or needed any major changes.

Screwing up multiple systems that were working.

Also, yeah, I agree, this patch is a bit worrying. The highlight of this patch are things like, "now there's achievements for things you did back in 2014," and actually... really, it's just that. These aren't the grand updates that we were told would be coming. The unified crafting stations isn't even rolling out until Q4 apparently. But, hey, now Murkmire Prepper isn't so horrifically grindy, so that's supposed to make up for there being nothing new to do?

I mean, yeah, level gating some of the old prolog quests, so that new players don't get overwhelmed is probably a good idea. Newbies are less likely to get trial quests out in the world (until the endeavor tells them to do a trial), but, yeah, if this is what they mean, going forward, there is a real chance the game is going to fall off the edge.

Chrisbar

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Many people have their "daily routine". You know - things they do every day in ESO. Some do only crafting, some do daily quests in zone, some do dungeons etc.

THIS.

Except some of us do the Endeavors as part of our daily routine. I'm a casual soloist and usually reserve about 20 minutes in the morning before leaving for work to login, get my daily reward, finish writs, and do my endeavors. Once that's over, life goes on as it does and I may or may not make it back into Tamriel that day. But I really like being able to say "oh today sucked but at least I got my dailies done". It's a nice little feeling of accomplishment.

I REALLY hope that these PTS Endeavors are just being front-loaded for testing purposes and will be mixed into the existing rotation (and balanced appropriately) when this Update goes live. If they are heavily replacing the current mix, I won't able to get my daily 3, probably ever again.