max_only wrote: »

HowTaoBrownCow wrote: »

I literally didn't realize that the Bosmer had lost their sneak bonus until I ran into this thread. Stuff is changing all the time in the game and I usually just ignore it -- it hurts the people who optimize their build for whatever the current setup is, but after the first few big changes I just gave up on optimizing and settled for role-playing. I put points into the passives, and I generally ignore the details of whatever actual benefits they give me, outside of the broad strokes of magicka for elves and bretons, stamina for redguards and khajiit and wood elves, and so forth.

But also, I didn't realize it because Bosmer have *always* had the sneak bonus, and that sneak bonus was part of the broad strokes that I associated with them. So, when I saw that the Bosmer racial passives had changed, and I read that the "sneak detection radius" had changed, I just assumed that it was a weirdly worded way of saying that they were harder to detect. There are armor set bonuses that improve your sneak, and they also phrase it in terms of sneak detection radius, so I just assumed that was what was going on.

But I've just recently started playing my one Bosmer character again, and doing the Thieves Guild and DB questlines, and it was striking me that my sneak seemed worse than I was expecting. My main character is Khajiit, and I was expecting them to have similar sneak abilities, as usual, but my Bosmer kept being detected when I thought I should have been fine. It was weird, and it had been nagging at me to try to figure out what was going wrong.

And now I know. ZOS, why would you change a sneak/scout type race into just another stamina DPS? The minor speed buff was a nice touch, and would have paired well with the sneak bonus to create the idea of the woodland ranger, moving swiftly and silently through the forest. But now my tiny Bosmer is basically the same as my redguard, and exactly as sneaky as my giant high elf warrior.

I'll roll with this change as I've rolled with all the others. The change to a detection buff is absolutely useless to me, and when I get detected I'll just kill everyone around me like any stamina DPS would do. But it definitely takes some of the fun out of this character for me.

Thank you for posting. Every once in a while we’ll get someone who claims it’s just affecting 5-6 of us and no one else cares. You are proof that it affects more people than we can know. There are plenty of players chagrined with this change who just frown, don’t read the forums and decide to continue or quit that we will never know about.

Sylvermynx wrote: »

I ran into someone outside of game a day or so ago; we "know" each other on other forums. She had quit playing ESO some months back, and asked me how things were going.

Told her about this whole balls-up, and she said "Well.... that sucks. I got tired of all the crap that didn't work and didn't get fixed, but this.... it just bought the farm. I was thinking about starting up my sub again.... but no. That they could break lore in such a drastic manner.... and then try to justify it so badly.

"No. No more money from me. And sure - I can play without paying. But I won't. I refuse. I'm done."

I have her permission to post this, without any identifying info.

Sad.

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

You should consider taking skills out of your hirelings for the time. Or you start selling mats in guild stores. If you want something crafted, rather than crafting it yourself, let a friend do it for you with the mats from your inventory and not your craft bag. You can also send mails to trusted friends and have them return them to you. That way you get 6 extra inventory slots per mail. If you keep that up and don't pick up and decon everything you find, you'll be able to bridge the gap between ESO+ free trials. And since you don't get any bonus for having active ESO+ during a free trial anymore, you won't even have to buy it then.

Keep up the fight for the rite! You can do it, I believe in you and so do all the nonstealthy Bosmer out there!

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Ashryn wrote: »

Indeed...I'm STILL livid with the stealth changes to Bosmer and the poison resistance changes for the Argonians! I roll with most changes and adapt, but this is so egregious, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth!

Same. I said I wouldn't spend a penny on future content, and didn't stick to it. I grabbed a few months of ESO+ to get Frostvault Chasm home and decorate it to my liking. Home decoration is basically my endgame. Also, got Elsweyr to play necromancer with my wife.

Seing how Elsweyr turned to be a steamling hot pile of dung from our point of view (Dragons are poorly animated and have no interaction with their environnment, Necromancers are currently broken AF and are unplayable, see this thread for reference https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479549/stamina-necromancer-mount-synergies-buffs-issues ), and seeing that I now ONLY decorate houses when I log on... This is definetely the last time I spend money on that game. And this time, it will hold.

At least until they fix their sh*t. If they can't have some respect for their own lore, at the very least they shouldn't let the former lead of PvP team come anywhere close to it. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.

I'm not looking forward to when my plus runs out, losing the craft bag is going to suck.
But, until this is fixed I guess no craft bag for me.

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

I meant it's not the first time that there was some disconnection between gameplay and lore.

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Koronach wrote: »

Ogou wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

Just want to add that because the detect has no purpose is the reason you the second part of the Hunter's eye passive (the rolly poly part). So I'm pretty sure that from ZOS' point of view the "universally applicable" goal is achieved.

The goal to preserve established lore in the game has been utterly failed though.

If you say so? Not the first time this has happened and it's probably not going to be the last either?

Actually, yes this is the first time, ever, that Bosmer have no bonus to sneaking and no bonus to any thieving skill.

I meant it's not the first time that there was some disconnection between gameplay and lore.

When the devs claim that adhering to lore is a primary goal in the document announcing these changes and then congratulate themselves on making such amazingly lore-guided changes in a stream broadcast afterwards, then they open themselves up for this. They need to either 1: admit the lore is crap they can't be bothered with or 2: acknowledge where they got the lore wrong and explain how they'll fix it. As it stands they demonstrate that the lore is crap they can't be bothered with while simultaneously congratulating themselves on how amazingly lore compliant they're being.

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

Your suggestion of a "choose your destiny" mechanic is actually something I suggested some time ago, and I think would go a long way to alleviating some of these racial passive issues the community has. As far as the discussion there and in other posts went, however, most people seem to want abilities restricted to a specific race. Therein lies the problem of everyone wanting the limited abilities for their preferred race to be something different from what everyone else wants.

Link for reference:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/405774/racial-passives-a-poll/p1

Koronach wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I may be in the minority but I think the stealth passive was just redundant. Perhaps Bosmer need something better than what ZOS gave them with the last racial passive changes, but I still like the idea that it's something unique to them.

Then take all magicka bonus from Altmer and Dunmer, it's redundant with Bretons. Take all weapon bonuses from every race but Orcs, it's redundant. Take all stamina bonuses from every race but Redguards, it's redundant.

Having one, and only one, race with bonuses to magic is obviously silly; having one, and only one, race with bonuses to combat is equally silly. How is it not just as silly to have one, and only one, race with any bonus to thieving?

You're way oversimplifying. Altmer have higher magicka power than any other race, where bretons have historically focused on recovery or resistance to magicka, and Dunmer in ESO have a niche of getting bonuses to both magicka and stamina where the other races focus more on one or the other. Saying they're all the same because they all give magicka bonuses is like saying Redguards and Orcs are the same because they both give stamina bonuses. Give Bosmer something unique having to do with stealth, instead of just giving them the exact same stealth bonus as Khajiit because you personally want that bonus back.

What I was saying is not that their detection is the best way to accomplish this, but the theory is in my opinion solid. Give them a unique crit or flanking bonus, and make the Khajiit stealth passive more unique to thieving or something, as an example. It doesn't mean we need to scrap everything and just go back to the way things were just because the current Bosmer passive isn't the most applicable to your playstyle or the current meta. Who knows, maybe some players really like having another tool to stop those nightblade gankers in PVP.

@Marginis I don't think that's an oversimplification at all. This is exactly what was done. We had two stealth races before, now we only have one and one that's accidentally a bit better at sneaking (Imperial).
If ZOS gave us anything actively stealth related, say reduced sneak cost, we'd already be happy, because they acknowledge the series' lore.
Or at least we'd be happier than now. In ESO, stealth radius is the single most important stat for being a sneaky character. Sneak speed comes second and sneak cost comes in third. Give us any of those and we won't have to make an extra gear or vampirism investment. They can easily change it like that without hurting dps charts while adding flavor and keeping the "uniqueness" that ZOS praises so much.

ZOS had the option to give any of those passives to Bosmer instead of detection. That is the main problem. Bosmer are supposedly one of the most naturally gifted sneaks in Tamriel and racial passives should reflect that if stealth is a thing that exists in ESO. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then they are arbitrary and have no reason for being in the first place. They replaced being better at hiding with nothing. And yes, detection is nothing, even in PvP. I can explain that to you in detail if you want. But it should also not be glossed over the fact that one of the goals ZOS stated was that the passives should become more universally applicable and a passive that is only good in PvP and serves ABSOLUTELY NO PURPOSE in PvE is not what I would call "universally applicable".
We are not mad because the meta shifted away from out builds, we are mad because ZOS kicked 25 years of lore in the dirt and balanced against player expectations. That is why this is comparable. If you choose an Altmer to be good at magic because the lore says so, and then ZOS takes magic away from them completely, then you have every right to be upset and demand it back.

I'm not sure I'd agree that the lore is as trampled as you say, and I personally think that while lore is important (I lead a lore-friendly roleplay guild, afterall) I do think it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. However, I absolutely agree that a different type of stealth bonus would be great. Sneak speed, sneak cost, maybe even something unique like brief invisibility upon activating sneak. I just think it's a boring and uninventive solution to just give the same boring bonus there was and take away the uniqueness from both Khajiit and Bosmer. Khajiit have always had their thing, but Bosmer deserve better than to just be a slightly more stamina focused Khajiit.

Yes, I agree it takes a backseat to balance and gameplay. But I'd say it only goes that far. I wouldn't be demanding stealth for Bosmer if stealth wasn't a thing in ESO. I am not demanding chameleon like skin and invisibility near plants, even if that would be in line with the lore. Stealth is gameplay in ESO after all and ZOS limited choice - the very thing they wanted to increase.
But if we have racial passives in this game, then they better reflect the races as they are represented in the game's lore as closely as possible within the boundaries set by gameplay and balance. That's the point of having racial passives in the first place. You are meant to not only read about the physiology of the races but experience it in action as you play. If the racial passives don't reflect the lore, then the race choice might as well be purely cosmetic, because the boni don't actually mean anything. And if the game requires a system to grant you buffs for balance, you can turn that into a "choose your destiny" at the start of the game where you can pick if you want to be stealthy, magical or tough. That would do players a greater favor than adding racials that are completely disconnected from the source material.

Your suggestion of a "choose your destiny" mechanic is actually something I suggested some time ago, and I think would go a long way to alleviating some of these racial passive issues the community has. As far as the discussion there and in other posts went, however, most people seem to want abilities restricted to a specific race. Therein lies the problem of everyone wanting the limited abilities for their preferred race to be something different from what everyone else wants.

Link for reference:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/405774/racial-passives-a-poll/p1

It also looks like the majority wanted them left alone looking at the poll. Well leave them alone got the most votes out of the others. Instead ZoS felt the need to change them and break some of the races lore within the game.